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View Poll Results: How do you feel about Enchanter's power level? Multiple choice allowed.
Non-classically overpowered and needs nerf 66 33.33%
Non-classically overpowered and does not need nerf 19 9.60%
Classically overpowered and needs nerf (Bard, Nec, etc examples) 23 11.62%
Classically overpowered and does not need nerf 88 44.44%
Trivializes content and needs nerf 42 21.21%
Trivializes content and does not need nerf 16 8.08%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 198. You may not vote on this poll

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  #181  
Old 03-22-2021, 12:02 PM
azxten azxten is offline
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Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
I tried to find proof of as much on the Enchanter forums, but it looks like Wayback doesn't have an archive past 2003 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] (https://web.archive.org/web/2019*/ht...es.net/forums/) I strongly suspect this is a big part of the problem: no one can "prove" obvious facts (eg. that classic Enchanters absolutely did think Charisma was important).
I linked some earlier in this thread. I found an old Angelfire Enchanter page. Here....

https://www.angelfire.com/rpg/whitew...ChantGuide.htm

Quote:
Charisma - The second school supports raising CHA as high as possible for two reasons. Firstly, many believe that high CHA has a profound impact on charm durations, stun-locking, fear durations, and mezzing. Nearly all enchanters give credit that it does help, especially in charming scenarios. The second reason is that most Charisma items do not have an armor class raise attached. At higher levels, enchanters start steering toward AC/HP/Mana items, and many INT items carry those stats, especially AC. My research has proven to me that CHA has a profound impact on charming, without a doubt. Mezzing is slightly impacted by it, as my mezzing resists are always lower with high charisma, but only barely lower, so much that I had to cast it 100 times and keep track of the resists to be able to tell. I haven't tested it with stunning and fearing yet... that's next on the list.
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Also, you need a massive Charisma. I'm talking about 170+. At 182, I'm semi-comfortable with Charm-Solo, and I still prefer Kamikaze-Solo.
Quote:
You first find two mobs to make fight each other. Charming a mob and then looking for something to attack with it is just increasing the chance for the charm to break right in the middle of the fight, which gets you killed. Very often, this is unavoidable, but that's your own risk you must take upon yourself if you so choose. I choose not to. I'm 16th level, just got all my CHA gear on, and have 164 CHA now. Not quite 170, but I'm too anxious to wait--and honestly 164 is a damned good CHA for this level--should be good enough for now.
I was charming regularly with like 130 CHA and zero issues with breaks. Yes, everyone knew CHA mattered. Also Charm seemed to require much higher CHA than P99 to get similar effects.

Quote:
charm to break right in the middle of the fight, which gets you killed. Very often, this is unavoidable
....due to channeling....

I remember dying often to channeling failures and resists and it just doesn't happen much on P99. Even just soloing a mob if root broke I'd be there recasting, recasting, recasting.. interrupted repeatedly and then you die. It was one of those unforgettable rage inducing things about EQ for me. When you "should have won" a fight and a series of bullshit rolls would shit all over you and a blue mob would just fuck you up from something like interrupts.

Anyway, I'm done, will repost soon.
Last edited by azxten; 03-22-2021 at 12:06 PM..
  #182  
Old 03-22-2021, 12:05 PM
loramin loramin is offline
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Originally Posted by azxten [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
I linked some earlier in this thread. I found an old Angelfire Enchanter page. Here....

https://www.angelfire.com/rpg/whitew...ChantGuide.htm
Thank you Axten ... and also just thank you in general.

It is really hard to argue for classic things here, against a massive chorus of "my class is not broken, don't you dare fix it". I personally have raised this issue before, but I didn't play an Enchanter on live (and only have a low-level alt here), so I can't speak to the specifics; I can only point to the giant, basic logic inconsistencies, and remind people "live wasn't like this!"

But you're doing the truly hard work, of finding evidence, digging into the details and supporting your position ... again, against a cascade of vitriol. I've been on your end before, so I understand how truly draining it is to keep up such a "fight" ... and I salute you for it [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

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  #183  
Old 03-22-2021, 12:13 PM
Vivitron Vivitron is offline
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How do you go from
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There was an entire Enchanter forum dedicated to Enchanter knowledge, and if it was as easy to solo here as it was on live I guarantee that knowledge would have been known, and shared on that forum.
To
Quote:
Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
I tried to find proof of as much on the Enchanter forums, but it looks like Wayback doesn't have an archive past 2003 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] (https://web.archive.org/web/2019*/ht...es.net/forums/).
Without including a retraction and apology?
  #184  
Old 03-22-2021, 12:15 PM
Nirgon Nirgon is offline
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even the poll options reek of ass hurt
  #185  
Old 03-22-2021, 12:16 PM
loramin loramin is offline
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Originally Posted by Vivitron [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
How do you go fromTo
Without including a retraction and apology?
Quote:
Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
I can only point to the giant, basic logic inconsistencies, and remind people "live wasn't like this!"
I don't need "proof": basic logic dictates that if you have many thousands of Enchanter players, and a good chunk are communicating on a forum, that they're going to share useful information with each other and make that information widely known (eg. the information that you can earn XP a whole lot faster by soloing than you can in a group).
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  #186  
Old 03-22-2021, 12:18 PM
Vivitron Vivitron is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
I don't need "proof": basic logic dictates that if you have many thousands of Enchanter players, and a good chunk are communicating on a forum, that they're going to share useful information with each other and make that information widely known (eg. the information that you can earn XP a whole lot faster by soloing than you can in a group).
As far as I know they did.
  #187  
Old 03-22-2021, 12:28 PM
qezelia qezelia is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
I don't need "proof": basic logic dictates that if you have many thousands of Enchanter players, and a good chunk are communicating on a forum, that they're going to share useful information with each other and make that information widely known (eg. the information that you can earn XP a whole lot faster by soloing than you can in a group).
And when the majority of those people are bad players who are getting clapped left and right (which is still the case on P99, most enchanters can't charm solo well at all) the overwhelming message is going to be that charming is bad/not worth it. There may be a few in there claiming and arguing that it's awesome and OP, but they're gonna get drowned out by the majority claiming it sucks because they couldn't make it work - people generally aren't good at admitting they need to improve. Even still on P99, I hear plenty of enchanters claim their charm breaks 3 times per pull even though that's clearly nonsense. You give way too much credit to the average player.
  #188  
Old 03-22-2021, 12:59 PM
Nirgon Nirgon is offline
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"It's clearly unfair wizards and druids can port all around the world within minutes. Way too OP for raid mobilization."

Keep it on the WoW boards.
  #189  
Old 03-22-2021, 01:10 PM
Danth Danth is offline
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Dunno about charm, but it sure seems like the Great Lull Nerf isn't present on P99 and never has been (folks have been bringing this one up since 2009). The artificially high resist rate given to the lull type spells was done host-side in the original game and hence wasn't reflected in clientside spelldata files. I don't want to see folks nerfed on P99 badly enough to scrounge the net for the relevant quotes--at this point in my life I prefer letting it be and let folks have their fun--but its another factor making Enchanters relatively stronger on P99 than in the original game. Also benefits some other classes as well (like my Paladin) and generally makes pulling slightly trivial here.

Danth
  #190  
Old 03-22-2021, 01:23 PM
Dolalin Dolalin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Danth [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
Dunno about charm, but it sure seems like the Great Lull Nerf isn't present on P99 and never has been (folks have been bringing this one up since 2009).
Lull probably needs attention too.

I would say people generally want 'silver bullet' solutions to problems, and conversely, they expect problems to have one or two major causes.

In reality, that's not always the case. Rather, it's more common that lots of small related problems multiply into a big one.

(I've seen this pattern a lot in society and it's a big reason why we keep stalling on making progress on many issues in life, because we expect all problems to have big, obvious causes. If you suggest attacking tons of little problems, people start thinking it's a waste of time because they look at each little cause in isolation and think 'how could that cause all this?', so they lose interest and the thing never gets fixed. It's a flaw in human psychology.)

Enchanters being OP is a lot of little problems, with a few medium-sized ones like Channeling being OP on P99, that all multiply into a bigger issue. You have to attack all the little things in order to solve it.
Last edited by Dolalin; 03-22-2021 at 01:26 PM..
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