Policy Discussion: Spelling Out GM Procedure & Making Everyone's Lives Easier

[Pheer]

Pretty funny how when things are going in TMO's favor they have no problem, but the moment something goes against them suddenly the system is broken and there needs to be an overhaul

[Thulack]

Originally Posted by toolshed [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I just started playing on P1999. I raided a lot during live, and I am blown away by the complexity and micro-managing that the GMs have to do on this server for the raid scene. It seems like 50% of their job is to babysit ~200 people and the other 49% is probably watching all the videos from fraps you guys make.

Why is this all so complicated? Rules about camping trackers, where you can bind, how long you can engage a mob for, raid guild classification code(?!?)....it's tiring to learn about, I can't imagine trying to actually enforce any of these really odd rules.

It's the same 2-3 guilds that cause 99% of the raid drama it seems. Just let them go at it. They're only hurting themselves if they treat each other awfully, and maybe it will cause some new guilds to form. After all, once one of these guilds gets a high raid classification, you're basically weighing the deck in their favor; nobody is going to want to form a new guild if they don't like the old one because they have to re-earn a classification code or whatever.

It's the guilds in the top classification that have all the issues. You only have to kill 1 mob in Veeshan's Peak to be considered this classification. Most guilds dont bother with it because they don't want to have to deal with the other guilds involved. As you said you only just got here. If you let them go at it themselves they just squash all the other guilds and continue their fighting between themselves.

[Tewaz]

Try Red?

This thread needs so much Red.

[Haynar]

Basically open public debate of raid drama, with the illusion of a formal process.

LOLOLOL

H

[Frieza_Prexus]

Originally Posted by Haynar [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Basically open public debate of raid drama, with the illusion of a formal process.

LOLOLOL

H

I believe you have misread what I wrote. There is no public debate; the complaint is released to the accused who gets one shot to rebut it and the decision maker decides. It's pretty much exactly what we do now, except, you know, more organized. Please read more carefully before you publicly condemn something; your status as a developer carries a lot of weight.

Originally Posted by Pheer

Pretty funny how when things are going in TMO's favor they have no problem, but the moment something goes against them suddenly the system is broken and there needs to be an overhaul

Please explain to me how I am attempting to leverage this specifically into TMO's favor. I know that you often follow me into threads, but please drop the act and try attacking the point on its merits for once.

Look, the system is fine just like walking up the stairs to get to the 4th floor is fine. It's not too hard, and most of us can do it. The question is why when the elevator is right there. I know I run the RL examples into the ground with comparisons to American courts. This isn't a court of law; it's a damned hobbyist EQ emulator. But there's a reason I use these examples, and it's because they work. No one wants to deal with needless bureaucratic bullshit. I remember when TMO got one of its suspensions from Amelinda overturned. Without commenting on the fairness of the result, the actual discussion was a nightmare TMO submitted a "brief" that was close to probably over 10 pages when you added it all up, and it had many minutes of raw fraps. Then you can add in countless PMs, petitions, and in game conversations. It's just exhausting. Not to mention extremely disorganized. Facts get lost in the shuffle. On top of all that, IB wasn't even notified of the ruling when the suspension was lifted. How is that fair?

What I have proposed is exactly what we do now except that it is more organized. It literally boils down to this:

Originally Posted by How shit should get did

GUILD A "We got trained. Here's ALL our argument in a short easy to read summary"

GM *Hands Guild B the stuff from A* "Guild B what do you say"

GUILD B "Here's all of our defense in a short summary"

GM I rule XYZ

DONE.

It is beyond me how anyone could think that the current program of PMs back and forth and constant Skyping, chatting, PMing, and petitioning for each individual complaint is ever preferable to this. It's madness in my view. If the GM staff feels there is no need for formal procedure then that's their decision to make. As a member of the community and an active raider, I feel strongly that things are way more difficult and arduous than they need to be.

[Frieza_Prexus]

Originally Posted by toolshed [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

It's the same 2-3 guilds that cause 99% of the raid drama it seems. Just let them go at it. They're only hurting themselves if they treat each other awfully, and maybe it will cause some new guilds to form. After all, once one of these guilds gets a high raid classification, you're basically weighing the deck in their favor; nobody is going to want to form a new guild if they don't like the old one because they have to re-earn a classification code or whatever.

The GMs originally did leave the top guilds to their own devices. 3rd parties were being injured as a result, and they were being completely shut out of all content. The mission statement of this server is that casual players are still, despite their casual status, entitled to a reasonable expectation of meaningful participation in high end content. The new rules have done an excellent job of ensuring this. They're not perfect, but, speaking as a Class C neckbeard, they have done wonders for enabling the casual player's enjoyment here.

Classic EQ is full of horrible mechanics that are ripe for abuse from the overly dedicated meth fueled neckbeards of class C. It's been a big issue for many of us to not have all the little rules compiled into one mega thread, and many people, including former and current GMs, have pointed out that a condensed and organized rule book would be really really useful. Easy to read and consistent predictable rules are useful for everyone, and that's the reason I've made this thread.

[Derubael]

This actually goes against what we've been trying to do recently - specifically, that we are passing the petitions onto the players to mediate.

I know we've had a bit of a rocky start, but I feel like we're at a place now that I'm comfortable with. The bottom line here is that it's up to the players from now on, and if they'd like to make their process more public that's fine with us. Feel free to implement this system when dealing with disputes if you'd like.

As always, if it does come down to us making a decision, we aren't going to go out of our way to show the process. Hopefully future disputes won't make it that far - if they do, I can say for sure without a doubt that our decision is not going to be one that anyone likes. We're basically doing things like they were done on live. The only difference is we are alot more flexible, forgiving, and willing to let players do their own thing. Let's be honest here - if this was live, we'd have several disbanded guilds right now.

[Pringles]

Originally Posted by Derubael [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This actually goes against what we've been trying to do recently - specifically, that we are passing the petitions onto the players to mediate.

I know we've had a bit of a rocky start, but I feel like we're at a place now that I'm comfortable with. The bottom line here is that it's up to the players from now on, and if they'd like to make their process more public that's fine with us. Feel free to implement this system when dealing with disputes if you'd like.

As always, if it does come down to us making a decision, we aren't going to go out of our way to show the process. Hopefully future disputes won't make it that far - if they do, I can say for sure without a doubt that our decision is not going to be one that anyone likes. We're basically doing things like they were done on live. The only difference is we are alot more flexible, forgiving, and willing to let players do their own thing. Let's be honest here - if this was live, we'd have several disbanded guilds right now.

aka:

Originally Posted by Pringles [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Just be adults, we all are - perhaps try acting like it?

[Frieza_Prexus]

I certainly hope the system in place now continues to gain acceptance and work, but I can't help but remain pessimistic about parties sometimes forcing issues into GM arbitration as some sort of scorched earth policy. We've seen it before, and it will be seen again.

My point, which I don't think I've made clearly, isn't that all problems should go through the GMs, it's that the ones that MUST go through the GMS should have a simple and efficient procedure for resolution. It's consistent and fair, and it avoids the constant back and forth appeals to repeatedly open, close, and reopen the issue.

When accusing someone of wrongdoing, a guild should be able to concisely make its argument all at once and the accused should be given an opportunity to review and concisely respond to the complete complaint against it before judgment is passed.

What I am suggesting does not go against what you want to do; it merely makes it easier for everyone when you occasionaly decide to get involved.

[averad]

P99 Red should GM P99 Blue

P99 Blue should post porn links and tranny dicks to keep P99 Red happy

Everyone Wins