CoWorker said the border was at fault that non-vaxed ppl are dying

[loramin]

Originally Posted by Evia [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The thing is you’re expecting other people to subscribe to your medical beliefs. That’s the core issue. While you see vaccines as life saving and excellent preventative medicine, I see it as poison and a violation of everything I believe in. I don’t understand why you cannot take your own medicine to protect you, you need me to take it too. That’s my disconnect. By all means take whatever you want to protect you from the world, but expecting your neighbor to take your medicine too because your medicine doesn’t work unless I take it as well is completely ridiculous.

Look, if "vaccines are evil" is your religion, there's just no point in us talking about them. Same goes for any other aspect of medicine: if you believe gayness can be cured through prayer, I'm not going to convince you otherwise by showing you stats on how prayer doesn't change sexuality. I'll stick to conversing with people who do care about objective measurements of reality, the scientific method, etc.

However, I don't mean that like "you're an asshole who I don't want to talk to"! I simply mean it's a pointless activity for both of us, because nothing I or anyone else can say will make you change that faith.

It's like trying to logic someone into believing Jesus never existed: it can't be done ... because people don't believe in Jesus based on logic, they believe based on faith.

Similarly here your belief that vaccines are "poison" isn't rooted in the scientific method or anything else objective: it's part of your identity, your "tribe". Since I don't share that faith, that identity, trying to talk to each other will just mean talking past each other.. But just because we have "religious differences" on this matter doesn't mean I think you're a lesser person or someone I don't want to talk about elf sims with or anything [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[Evia]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Look, if "vaccines are evil" is your religion, there's just no point in us talking.

I don't mean that like "you're an asshole who I don't want to talk to" though! I simply mean it's a pointless activity, because nothing I or anyone else can say will make you change that faith.

It's like trying to logic someone into believing Jesus never existed: it can't be done ... because people don't believe in Jesus based on logic, they believe based on faith.

Loramin! I've always found you to be a level headed individual, One of the few we have here tbh lol.

I never said "vaccines are evil is my religion" I said "I see it as poison and a violation of everything I believe in" -- you never bothered to engage me in the discussion you have already seemed to make your mind up.

I believe GOD made me complete and whole. He didn't forget a vaccine that now I need to be sure to take. That's my religious belief, sure, but it doesn't mean I think they're evil. You obviously believe in them strongly and I think you should have that right without me preaching to you about my views. I think a lot of the ingredients in vaccines are also harmful to the body. I understand the science theory that is used I just don't agree with it. I don't know why that means we can't still be friends and have different views in health and how we care for ourselves. Just like its bullshit for Christians or religions to shove their views down others throats, I don't think its right that the pro vaccine community needs to shove their views down mine.

[loramin]

Originally Posted by Evia [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Loramin! I've always found you to be a level headed individual, One of the few we have here tbh lol.

I never said "vaccines are evil is my religion" I said "I see it as poison and a violation of everything I believe in" -- you never bothered to engage me in the discussion you have already seemed to make your mind up.

I believe GOD made me complete and whole. He didn't forget a vaccine that now I need to be sure to take. That's my religious belief, sure, but it doesn't mean I think they're evil. You obviously believe in them strongly and I think you should have that right without me preaching to you about my views. I think a lot of the ingredients in vaccines are also harmful to the body. I understand the science theory that is used I just don't agree with it. I don't know why that means we can't still be friends and have different views in health and how we care for ourselves. Just like its bullshit for Christians or religions to shove their views down others throats, I don't think its right that the pro vaccine community needs to shove their views down mine.

The moment you used the phrase "medical beliefs" I knew we could only talk past each other. People who make decisions on logic, the scientific method, and other things that I believe in would never suggest that something objective (eg. how many people are dying of a disease) is a question of belief.

That one phrase did say "this is a religious issue for me", whether you meant to or not, because you literally said it's a question of belief, not facts.

[Jibartik]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

"medical beliefs"

https://youtu.be/2NeQDjdkWu4?t=683

[Evia]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The moment you used the phrase "medical beliefs" I knew we could only talk past each other. People who make decisions on logic, the scientific method, and other things that I believe in would never suggest that something objective (eg. how many people are dying of a disease) is a question of belief.

That one phrase did say "this is a religious issue for me", whether you meant to or not, because you literally said it's a question of belief, not facts.

See you keep saying "facts" but the truth is you really don't know for sure either. Unless you are literally the one doing all the fact checking the information you are receiving and believing could be wrong. Science is always evolving and changing as new info and facts are presented. That's not to say there aren't facts there, it's possible, but to deny the possibility of it being wrong or inaccurate is a different form of blind faith not entirely different from my own. That's why I think pushing views or beliefs, no matter how validated or right you feel you are, is wrong. That's the only REAL TRUTH.

[Synphul]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

In other words, could you imagine how one person's "personal choice" might result in someone else's death (say, because they spread the illness to someone with a weaker immune system)?

I'm not sure what reality you live in, but this is pretty much how the world works. Murder, accidental traffic deaths, flu deaths, COVID deaths, etc... they all have an element of 'personal choice' behind them if we're looking at them through your optics. Do you constantly worry about being asymptomatic with the flu and giving it to some immunocomprimised individual leading to their death? Just because you got the flu shot this year doesn't stop it as we all know. Why haven't you been wearing masks your whole life during flu season or avoiding old people at all costs? How many people have you killed with your reckless disregard, Loramin?!!

How can you be such a pro-vaxxer when vaccinated people are still spreading it per the CDC? There's also no science that tells us the variants come solely from unvaccinated individuals, so the blame game is juvenile. Non-mainstream science has been telling us from the beginning that we will be dealing with variants for decades like most viruses, but the media/politicians can't miss an opportunity to spout that next sensational headline. Viruses are tough cookies to crack, and we're not very good at it yet.

There's a difference being wanting to go about your normal life vs. trying to actively spread a disease and kill people. It's called intent and it matters. Stop trying to equate the two.

[loramin]

Originally Posted by Evia [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

See you keep saying "facts" but the truth is you really don't know for sure either. Unless you are literally the one doing all the fact checking the information you are receiving and believing could be wrong. Science is always evolving and changing as new info and facts are presented. That's not to say there aren't facts there, it's possible, but to deny the possibility of it being wrong or inaccurate is a different form of faith not entirely different from my own. That's why I think pushing views or beliefs, no matter how validated or right you feel you are, is wrong. That's the only REAL TRUTH.

Thought experiment time: do you believe in cancer? Have you studied it? Do you understand how mutations in DNA develop, or how those mutations result in tumors, or what hereditary factors cause one person to have a greater chance of getting it? And regardless ... do you need to know any of that to believe in it?

Ok, now same question for trichotillomania (a random rare disease I pulled out of my hat that you probably haven't heard of; it makes people pull their hair out): do you believe in it? Even though you (probably) have never had it? You've probably never even have known someone who did. so from your perspective it must just seem like something doctors have "made up"; believing it exists is an article of faith (faith in our medical experts).

Now, same question about electricity: do you understand how a capacitor works? What the difference between voltage or amperage is? And regardless ... do you still believe in electricity even if you don't know those things? You don't question how the computer you are using keeps functioning right? What about roads: how much do you know about asphalt, and the impacts of weather on granite, and so on ... but does any of that stop you from believing in roads?

What I'm getting at is that we can't all be pavers AND electricians AND doctors AND oncologists (cancer doctors) AND ... we all have to "take it on faith" that something other humans with expertise are telling us is true. Right?

So why then take this particular thing, and decide that for it and it alone you're not going to do what you do for everything else ... the same thing you do every day, a million times a day: trust and believe that others with more expertise are correct?

I submit that your decision to put Covid to a different standard than cancer, electricity and roads is an article of faith. You have decided a different criteria (don't trust the experts) for it than anything else. Just like you presumably do for Jesus: again, I suspect you standard of belief in him isn't "I have to see it for myself"; you take it on faith right? But if I was like "there's a ghost following you around" you'd go back to your normal standard, and demand to see proof, right?

Again I'm not trying to argue with you about your faith ... I'm just explaining that we're like a Jew and a Christian, and neither will convert the other. I will always be interested in conversations about logic and reason and evidence, but I will never share your faith.

[loramin]

Originally Posted by Synphul [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

There's a difference being wanting to go about your normal life vs. trying to actively spread a disease and kill people. It's called intent and it matters. Stop trying to equate the two.

Intent definitely matters, at least to most schools of philosophy (I'm sure someone can find a quote from some philosopher arguing otherwise).

But when does responsibility start? If you are aware you could be doing something to hurt someone, and you keep doing it anyway, can you still honestly say you lack any intent to hurt them?

[Pulgasari]

You can reach many ridiculous conclusions with logic, it's not the immortal science you think it is.

[loramin]

Originally Posted by Pulgasari [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You can reach many ridiculous conclusions with logic it's not the immortal science you think it is.

Agreed! But can we both agree that if you try and use logic/reason, expert opinion, and evidence, you're more likely to get the right answer ... vs. "just going with your gut"? (For most questions at least: "what is the meaning of life" maybe not so much [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.])