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  #161  
Old 08-05-2021, 06:34 PM
Gatordash Gatordash is offline
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I agree with your sentiment but disagree with your approach here Loramin. Other professional jobs aren't injecting a new mRNA vaccine into your body, pavers are just fixing your driveway and electricians are getting your AC running. Its (literally) a lot more personal when a doctor wants to change something in your body.

Which normally I'd be fine with but the problem with anti-vaxxers in this specific case here is that we sort of have a chance to stop this disease if everyone in the world were able to get a vaccine and quarantine for a month. But the reality is that will never happen because of the logistics and at some point we need to face that we have too many dumb people on this planet, as you can tell from these forums.
  #162  
Old 08-05-2021, 06:40 PM
Evia Evia is offline
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Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
Thought experiment time: do you believe in cancer? Have you studied it? Do you understand how mutations in DNA develop, or how those mutations result in tumors, or what hereditary factors cause one person to have a greater chance of getting it? And regardless ... do you need to know any of that to believe in it?

Ok, now same question for trichotillomania (a random rare disease I pulled out of my hat that you probably haven't heard of; it makes people pull their hair out): do you believe in it? Even though you (probably) have never had it? You've probably never even have known someone who did. so from your perspective it must just seem like something doctors have "made up"; believing it exists is an article of faith (faith in our medical experts).

Now, same question about electricity: do you understand how a capacitor works? What the difference between voltage or amperage is? And regardless ... do you still believe in electricity even if you don't know those things? You don't question how the computer you are using keeps functioning right? What about roads: how much do you know about asphalt, and the impacts of weather on granite, and so on ... but does any of that stop you from believing in roads?

What I'm getting at is that we can't all be pavers AND electricians AND doctors AND oncologists (cancer doctors) AND ... we all have to "take it on faith" that something other humans with expertise are telling us is true. Right?

So why then take this particular thing, and decide that for it and it alone you're not going to do what you do for everything else ... the same thing you do every day, a million times a day: trust and believe that others with more expertise are correct.

I submit that your decision to put Covid to a different standard than cancer is an article of faith. But as someone who sounds like a person of faith, again I'm not trying to argue with you about your faith ... just explaining that we're like a Jew and a Christian, and neither will convert the other.
Lots to break down here so I'll try my best to summarize and touch on it all.

While I don't deny that to some extent it is important to consult professionals or people who are more knowledgeable on subjects than I for advice and guidance, I don't agree with that in regards to my own body and health care. Much like everything in life there are good and bad in everything and science and western medicine has made incredible advancements in a ton of areas and it shouldn't be discredited. With that said though that doesn't mean they're always right and it's good to be open to that as a possibility and not put blinders on and trust everything 100% no questions asked.

To be honest with you loramin I used to be a huge pro vaxxer. It took a personal experience where I had my baby boy die of sids 6 days after his 30 day vaccine appointment that it shook me and started making me question more. I too thought it best to trust the doctors. Now I know everyone loves to say coralation doesn't equal causation but perfectly healthy baby's don't just die and The vaccine insert did mention sids as a possible side effect.

Now sure I'll admit nobody knows for sure if it was the vax that killed him but I believe it was. I also learned that you cannot hold vaccine manufacturers liable if a death occurs either or the hospital.

You're right we're never going to convince each other and that's not my desire. I just want you to see that there are two sides to this and it feels unfair that my health concerns should go out the window for your health concerns. Where do we draw the line from my rights to your rights if not with our own bodies? Danth said something similar that resonated with me.

Good chat loramin!
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Last edited by Evia; 08-05-2021 at 06:44 PM..
  #163  
Old 08-05-2021, 06:42 PM
Synphul Synphul is offline
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Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
Intent definitely matters, at least to most schools of philosophy (I'm sure someone can find a quote from some philosopher arguing otherwise).

But when does responsibility start? If you are aware you could be doing something to hurt someone, and you keep doing it anyway, can you still honestly say you lack any intent to hurt them?
Absolutely I can say I have the lack of intent to cause harm just because something I do could potentially cause harm. Do you think everyone that causes a car accident has intent to harm the person they hit before they hit them? Most likely not, but we drive around all day knowing it can happen and it's our personal responsibility to take what we can of our own safety into our own hands by being aware and defensive while driving.

It's a matter of calculating the risks. IMO, the risk of me unknowingly spreading the disease to some immunocompromised individual is extremeley low because of my lifestyle and habits, and I have yet to see any science that has changed my mind. There is also a calculated risk on the part of the immunocompromised as to whether or not they want/can get the vaccine or should be out among the public in their condition.
  #164  
Old 08-05-2021, 06:46 PM
loramin loramin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatordash [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
I agree with your sentiment but disagree with your approach here Loramin. Other professional jobs aren't injecting a new mRNA vaccine into your body, pavers are just fixing your driveway and electricians are getting your AC running. Its (literally) a lot more personal when a doctor wants to change something in your body.
To the contrary, I'd point out we're all doing exactly that! At this very moment I'm breathing in pollution from the cars driving on the freeway a few blocks away (but the cars themselves, the location of the freeway, etc. are all regulated, ostensibly for my safety). I'm simultaneously being exposed to radiation from the wires in my wall (but at a level experts have decided is safe for me), and I'm eating food with god knows what toxic chemicals in it (but again, the FDA seems to think this burrito won't kill me)!

I'm sure you can imagine a few more similar examples, because that's a key part of what living in a society is: putting your life in the hands of others.

Now, to be clear, I'm not saying our government is the perfect nanny! There's a wealth of historical evidence to the contrary (and as a white man I can't even point to some of the truly horrific betrayal by medical professionals in our history).

Having other humans look out for your interests is a flawed way to live .... but it's also better than any alternative [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] When the perfect all-caring and all-knowing robot overlords arrive, maybe I'll change my mind, but until then we're stuck with each other: the only way we humans can get by is to rely on others' expertise.
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  #165  
Old 08-05-2021, 06:52 PM
Pulgasari Pulgasari is offline
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Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
Agreed! But can we both agree that if you try and use logic/reason, expert opinion, and evidence, you're more likely to get the right answer ... vs. "just going with your gut"? (For most questions at least: "what is the meaning of life" maybe not so much [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.])
I do think that is probable but watch out for Gwaihir, he's got a bucket of rotten apples to pelt us with if he sees this.🪣 🍎🍏
  #166  
Old 08-05-2021, 06:52 PM
Jibartik Jibartik is offline
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Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
Agreed! But can we both agree that if you try and use logic/reason, expert opinion, and evidence, you're more likely to get the right answer ... vs. "just going with your gut"? (For most questions at least: "what is the meaning of life" maybe not so much [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.])
This is the plot of the thinning.

Last edited by Jibartik; 08-05-2021 at 06:54 PM..
  #167  
Old 08-05-2021, 06:54 PM
starkind starkind is offline
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Originally Posted by Botten [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
Mental health is just as bad as it has ever been the only difference is people have more access to weapons like AR-15s than say a Tommy Gun (price at $200 or equivalent to $3,500 in modern day).

And it isn't just violence in the home it could be at the grocery store, the club, church or work.

Mass shootings are way too prevalent:

Examples - Location in US - Date - Fatalities
Las Vegas Strip massacre - 10/1/2017 - 58
Orlando nightclub massacre - 6/12/2016 - 49
Virginia Tech massacre - 4/16/2007 - 32
Sandy Hook Elementary massacre - 12/14/2012 - 27
Texas First Baptist Church massacre - 11/5/2017 - 26
Luby's massacre - 10/16/1991 - 24
El Paso Walmart mass shooting - 8/3/2019 - 22
San Ysidro McDonald's massacre - 7/18/1984 - 22
Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School shooting - 2/14/2018 - 17
United States Postal Service shooting - 8/20/1986 - 15
San Bernardino mass shooting - 12/2/2015 - 14
Binghamton shootings - 4/3/2009 - 14
Fort Hood massacre - 11/5/2009 - 13
Columbine High School massacre - 4/20/1999 - 13
Virginia Beach municipal building shooting - 5/31/2019 - 12
Thousand Oaks nightclub shooting - 11/7/2018 - 12
Washington Navy Yard shooting - 9/16/2013 - 12
Aurora theater shooting - 7/20/2012 - 12
Tree of Life synagogue shooting - 10/27/2018 - 11
Boulder supermarket shooting - 3/22/2021 - 10
Santa Fe High School shooting - 5/18/2018 - 10
Red Lake massacre - 3/21/2005 - 10
GMAC massacre - 6/18/1990 - 10
San Jose VTA shooting - 5/26/2021 - 9
Dayton entertainment district shooting - 8/4/2019 - 9
Umpqua Community College shooting - 10/1/2015 - 9
Charleston Church Shooting - 6/17/2015 - 9
Hartford Beer Distributor shooting - 8/3/2010 - 9
Westroads Mall shooting - 12/5/2007 - 9
Atlanta day trading spree killings - 7/29/1999 - 9
101 California Street shootings - 7/1/1993 - 9
Standard Gravure shooting - 9/14/1989 - 9
FedEx warehouse shooting - 4/15/2021 - 8
Atlanta massage parlor shootings - 3/16/2021 - 8
Seal Beach shooting - 10/12/2011 - 8
Carthage nursing home shooting - 3/29/2009 - 8
Goleta postal shootings - 1/30/2006 - 8
Wedgwood Baptist Church shooting - 9/15/1999 - 8


The United States has had the most mass shootings of any country. In one 2017 study published in Time magazine by criminologist Adam Lankford, it was estimated that 31% of public mass shootings occur in the US, although it has only 5% of the world's population. The study concludes that “The United States and other nations with high firearm ownership rates may be particularly susceptible to future public mass shootings, even if they are relatively peaceful or mentally healthy according to other national indicators.”

And tho Adam Lankford's analyst was scrutinized he later revised his statement above with more research clarifying that although the United States is not significantly more likely than most other countries to have mass shootings that are committed by more than one person, such as the university massacre in Kenya, the United States from 1998-2012 did in fact have more than six times its global share of public mass shooters who attacked alone. Using the data from Lott and Moody's 2019 study of mass shootings, Lankford explains that "41 of all 138 public mass shootings by single perpetrators worldwide were committed in the United States. That represents 29.7%. Because America had in those years approximately 4.5% of the world's population (according to Lott and Moody's calculations), this indicates that based on their own data, the United States had more than six times its global share of public mass shooters who attacked alone (29.7/4.5 = 6.6).

Mass shootings have also been observed to be followed by an increase in the purchase of weapons, but does not seem to create an increased feeling of needing guns in either gun owners or non-owners.

It is crazy we can't sue gun companies.
But it looks like that if finally changing.

And who would of thought of all places, Mexico is suing the US gun companies.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/mexico-...rt-11628108966
Because of antidepressants and stimulants combined with headgames and chemical restraints. And antipsychotics with horrific side effects.

It's covered up pretty good as private but these guys get hopped up on serotonin n crash, get sick on the meds they get prescribed next. Quit. Go crazy for a few months and go on killing sprees. Also there is an MKUltra taping pplz eyes open and dropping keta n lsd in em with an ultraviolent version of Disney on loop. And releasing ppl armed. Then planting evidence so that the news creates a narrative.

I'm not denying mass killing or shooting or downplaying guns the sheer number of them and their necessity is definitely a factor making this worse and enabling the black ops.

And yes real ppl are dying n real shootings happening. The why and how is the lie.
Last edited by starkind; 08-05-2021 at 06:58 PM..
  #168  
Old 08-05-2021, 07:00 PM
mcoy mcoy is offline
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I wonder how the results would differ if the Milgram experiment was repeated today.

-Mcoy
  #169  
Old 08-05-2021, 07:01 PM
Jibartik Jibartik is offline
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america has the most mass shootings because we offer the most amount of freedom and people dont like each other very much.

the solution isnt to remove freedom.
  #170  
Old 08-05-2021, 07:01 PM
Pulgasari Pulgasari is offline
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Originally Posted by Jibartik [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
This is the plot of the thinning.

Lol at hiding from the cop monster like it's a velociraptor 😎
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