Rules regarding camps when someone has gotten the named spawn

[loramin]

Originally Posted by ReoDobbs [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The fact the the person can dictate who they hand the camp off to is a shit rule.

This. The PnP are largely awesome, and when they're not it's usually because of a limit of our all-volunteer GM team. This rule is an anomaly: it isn't needed by volunteer GMs, and it makes the server worse by encouraging lockdowns on camps.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This. The PnP are largely awesome, and when they're not it's usually because of a limit of our all-volunteer GM team. This rule is an anomaly: it isn't needed by volunteer GMs, and it makes the server worse by encouraging lockdowns on camps.

The person owning the camp getting to pick makes the most sense. Unless they implement /list globally (which would really suck), there is no way to know who the correct next person in line is. Lets say you go to the bathroom, come back, and three people are there waiting for you to finish camping the mob.

Who got there first, second and third? No way to know if the other players disagree, unless you were recording or catch some good evidence in your logs. Unless we require everyone to record and/or use logs when playing, most people wouldn't have this kind of evidence.

Someone has to make the final decision without GM intervention (they don't have time to arbitrate every dispute), and that person is obviously the camp owner. I am not sure how you would handle this situation otherwise, since the people who arrived have no ownership or claim on the camp currently, so their opinions are equally worthless compared to the current camp owner.

It wouldn't be fair to the camp owner if the people waiting in line somehow had more say on the matter than the current camp owner. Forcibly taking over a camp is camp stealing, and against the rules. That is basically what would end up happening if the people waiting in line could somehow overrule the current camp owner. If it was a vote, of course the current camp owner would get voted out lol.

[loramin]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The person owning the camp getting to pick makes the most sense. Unless they implement /list globally (which would really suck), there is no way to know who the correct next person in line is. Lets say you go to the bathroom, come back, and three people are there waiting for you to finish camping the mob.

Who got there first, second and third? No way to know if the other players disagree, unless you were recording or catch some good evidence in your logs. Unless we require everyone to record and/or use logs when playing, most people wouldn't have this kind of evidence.

Someone has to make the final decision without GM intervention (they don't have time to arbitrate every dispute), and that person is obviously the camp owner. I am not sure how you would handle this situation otherwise, since the people who arrived have no ownership or claim on the camp currently, so their opinions are equally worthless compared to the current camp owner.

It wouldn't be fair to the camp owner if the people waiting in line somehow had more say on the matter than the current camp owner. Forcibly taking over a camp is camp stealing, and against the rules. That is basically what would end up happening if the people waiting in line could somehow overrule the current camp owner. If it was a vote, of course the current camp owner would get voted out lol.

None of that has to be like that. It could be very simple: if three people are waiting for the camp, they random and the winner takes it.

[Zenren]

Originally Posted by Samoht [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Nah, the OP posed a very specific question under false pretenses. This isn't a conversation, it's a farce.

I don't know if they're complaining because they're in Kittens and they think they can't raid without idols or if they just want the idol camp to sell idols.

OP is too busy playing the victim to play the game.

What is it with the attacks on Kittens dude? I mean, we get it, you think they're inferior and you dislike them and their casual ways. I might suggest you get a life and stop trolling the forum. You've got an opinion on everything and usually it's negative. Why can't you let those of us who can have a civil conversation without insults do that, and you go back to whatever you do for fun.

[Zenren]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The person owning the camp getting to pick makes the most sense. Unless they implement /list globally (which would really suck), there is no way to know who the correct next person in line is. Lets say you go to the bathroom, come back, and three people are there waiting for you to finish camping the mob.

Who got there first, second and third? No way to know if the other players disagree, unless you were recording or catch some good evidence in your logs. Unless we require everyone to record and/or use logs when playing, most people wouldn't have this kind of evidence.

Someone has to make the final decision without GM intervention (they don't have time to arbitrate every dispute), and that person is obviously the camp owner. I am not sure how you would handle this situation otherwise, since the people who arrived have no ownership or claim on the camp currently, so their opinions are equally worthless compared to the current camp owner.

It wouldn't be fair to the camp owner if the people waiting in line somehow had more say on the matter than the current camp owner. Forcibly taking over a camp is camp stealing, and against the rules. That is basically what would end up happening if the people waiting in line could somehow overrule the current camp owner. If it was a vote, of course the current camp owner would get voted out lol.

So, actually I thought the rule was that a list was kept and you had to state who was second when asked and if you don't respond then the person who asked automatically gets the camp by default.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

None of that has to be like that. It could be very simple: if three people are waiting for the camp, they random and the winner takes it.

I think you missed my point. The method of determining who is in line is not relevant. The problem is who handles disputes when they arise, besides a GM?

Let's take your example and say three people are in line. They all /random to determine line order. But let's say the person who got third place in line honestly didn't get the /random messages from the other players and demands a re-roll. The other two players don't agree, and assume the third place player is attempting to initiate a re-roll to get a better position in line. Who settles this dispute? It can't be the three players attempting to determine line order, as they all have an equal stake in the line order. Their bias will probably affect any decision they make to find a resolution.

Either you require a GM at that point, or the owner of the camp becomes the deciding factor. No other person can take an elevated authority in this matter, as everybody in line has an equal stake in becoming the next camp owner. So you can't trust them to make a selfless decision when it comes to who should be next. I am not saying there aren't selfless people out there that will give up their spot, but it is more of the exception than the rule.

And please do not try and cite special camps like Ring 8 or Scout Tools. Those camps have special rules, and normally enough players are rolling to where people can come to a consensus as to who won. GMs probably are willing to handle a dispute for those camps than random camps as well, since there are special rules. Most camps only have a few players in line maximum, so it becomes more difficult to handle disputes, as it will often devolve into he-said she-said.

Originally Posted by Zenren [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

So, actually I thought the rule was that a list was kept and you had to state who was second when asked and if you don't respond then the person who asked automatically gets the camp by default.

Yes, that is the AFK rules in terms of being able to take a camp if no one responds. However, most people do not just instantly take a camp if you do not respond in 5 seconds. It is bad manners because people do sometimes go to the bathroom for a minute, and you would probably want the same courtesy. I already mentioned this earlier in the thread. You can potentially take a camp if everyone at the camp is AFK for too long. Ask the person/people if they are around and wait like 15 minutes. If you don't get a response, you have the right to take the camp. The other person/people will complain of course, but it doesn't matter. You should just record the person being AFK for 15 minutes, so you can use it as evidence later if elf laywering is needed.

Also, if multiple people are in line, usually they will tell you they are in line. Even if someone lies about line order, if they are there already when you get there, at minimum you are behind the responsive people.

Finally, I do not believe lines are a hard rule, other than the /list camps on Green. Lines are typically the most commonly agreed upon player rule that most people obey, but there is technically no requirement to enforce it lol. The only person that matters is the current camp owner, everybody else is just a potential camp owner. It's more of a gentleman's agreement that most people obey, because if you are too much of a dick people won't play with you, and also you would be pissed if someone else disobeyed the agreement.

TLDR: The owner of the camp gets to pick because disputes between potential camp owners do arise, and the GM's do not have time to handle every single dispute. They place the responsibility of the dispute on the camp owner, because he is the only one who doesn't have a stake in who gets the camp next. This makes sense, because the camp owner is already camping the item. GM's shouldn't need to get involved unless someone attempts to forcibly take the camp. Now, does this mean the camp owner can use that authority to get his buddies into the camp next? Yes it does, but there really isn't a way around that, unless you allow camp stealing to occur in fringe cases like this. I don't think you would want that lol.

[Samoht]

Originally Posted by Zenren [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

What is it with the attacks on Kittens dude? I mean, we get it, you think they're inferior and you dislike them and their casual ways.

Who attacked kittens? If you feel negative connotation for simply mentioning them, then that's on you not me.

But if you're posting this thread just because you think they cannot compete without idols, then that's just simply not true. They can't compete because I'm pretty sure that they actually have guild policies against competing.

If you want to actually raid, then you should probably find another guild that wants to raid instead of one that voluntarily sits on the sidelines.

And if there's any truth to this rumor that Riot officers are going to get to decide who gets to spend DKP and when, then there's going to be a lot of like-minded individuals out there also looking for guild pretty soon.

[loramin]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I think you missed my point. The method of determining who is in line is not relevant. The problem is who handles disputes when they arise, besides a GM?

Let's take your example and say three people are in line. They all /random to determine line order. But let's say the person who got third place in line honestly didn't get the /random messages from the other players and demands a re-roll. The other two players don't agree, and assume the third place player is attempting to initiate a re-roll to get a better position in line. Who settles this dispute? It can't be the three players attempting to determine line order, as they all have an equal stake in the line order. Their bias will probably affect any decision they make to find a resolution.

Either you require a GM at that point, or the owner of the camp becomes the deciding factor. No other person can take an elevated authority in this matter, as everybody in line has an equal stake in becoming the next camp owner. So you can't trust them to make a selfless decision when it comes to who should be next. I am not saying there aren't selfless people out there that will give up their spot, but it is more of the exception than the rule.

And please do not try and cite special camps like Ring 8 or Scout Tools. Those camps have special rules, and normally enough players are rolling to where people can come to a consensus as to who won. GMs probably are willing to handle a dispute for those camps than random camps as well, since there are special rules. Most camps only have a few players in line maximum, so it becomes more difficult to handle disputes, as it will often devolve into he-said she-said.

Let's say player #1 shows up and doesn't see player #2 already had the camp, so he takes it. How does it get resolved?

Answer: the same way as any dispute gets solved, ie. the same way the random roll would get resolved. If someone claims to not see the roll, too bad. If they try and take camp anyways, the other players petition and show screenshots of the roll.

You're trying to make this way more complex than it needs to be. Fundamentally nothing is any harder about having random rolls vs. getting to maintain (highly unclassic) monopolies.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Let's say player #1 shows up and doesn't see player #2 already had the camp, so he takes it. How does it get resolved?

Answer: the same way as any dispute gets solved, ie. the same way the random roll would get resolved. If someone claims to not see the roll, too bad. If they try and take camp anyways, the other players petition and show screenshots of the roll.

You're trying to make this way more complex than it needs to be. Fundamentally nothing is any harder about having random rolls vs. getting to maintain (highly unclassic) monopolies.

I am not making this complex. GM's simply do not want to handle every single dispute lol. If there are 3 random people in line, and one person disagrees with the roll, the only way to resolve it via a GM is the other two people must agree to take screenshots and send them out. Then you have to wait for a GM, who may not come. Because all three people in line don't know each other, who is to say one of them won't doctor their screenshot to make it look like they are first?

That is honestly way more messy and complex than just having the camp owner decide lol. You are asking the GM's to handle every single dispute simply because you want to avoid the possibility of favoritism between the camp owner and the people in line. Honestly there are no rules against that favoritism, as the only player who matters at the camp is the one camping the mob. Everybody else is just spectating or hanging out as far as the rules are concerned. Yes, people do have gentleman's agreements via lines (especially at long camps like Stormfeather), but as far as I know they are not actually enforceable. The only exception to this rule is the /list camps on Green.

[loramin]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I am not making this complex. GM's simply do not want to handle every single dispute lol. If there are 3 random people in line, and one person disagrees with the roll, the only way to resolve it via a GM is the other two people must agree to take screenshots and send them out. Then you have to wait for a GM, who may not come. Because all three people in line don't know each other, who is to say one of them won't doctor their screenshot to make it look like they are first?

That is honestly way more messy and complex than just having the camp owner decide lol. You are asking the GM's to handle every single dispute simply because you want to avoid the possibility of favoritism between the camp owner and the people in line. Honestly there are no rules against that favoritism, as the only player who matters at the camp is the one camping the mob. Everybody else is just spectating or hanging out as far as the rules are concerned. Yes, people do have gentleman's agreements via lines (especially at long camps like Stormfeather), but as far as I know they are not actually enforceable. The only exception to this rule is the /list camps on Green.

And if there are three people in line right now the exact same thing can happen. The point is, people will generally follow the rules, whatever they are (random or monopoly), and the staff will only come out in the rare cases when someone isn't following the rules.

But you also have to remember this is super rare: people don't monopolize 99% of the camps on P99.