Please check my math on Troll vs Ogre Shaman

[Crede]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I have never said Regeneration doesn't help on a Shaman lol.

The question is which is better:

1. +8 HP Regeneration Per Tick on a class that can already do +332 Hp Regeneration Per Tick self buffed.
2. A triggered ability that can factually save way more HP than +8 HP Regeneration per tick.

The answer is number 2 in MOST cases. I never said all cases. When Min/Maxing, the question is which bonus is BETTER in MOST cases.

For snare, I have yet to find a camp that requires snare to consistently kill the mobs, and not get additional agros. This is for a Shaman specifically, with Shaman strategies. Chain rooting works just fine. That is why Snare Neck isn't that special. If there does exist the rare camp or two that requires a snare to win, you can use https://wiki.project1999.com/Ball_of_Burlap_Yarn , if you can't get to VP. The only way you will be able to prove Snare Neck is superior is if you can show there are a decent amount of camps out there that require a Snare Neck to consistently win. Otherwise your skill will be the deciding factor at that camp, not an item.

As Danth pointed out, your logic fails to account for any situation where a shaman isn't tanking. There's a hell of a lot more to the shaman class than just taking hits, which I mentioned many pages ago. You say you're talking about min/max, but you're really just talking about one specific area of shaman playstyle. So in regards to your #2, i don't know how you consider that most cases. Unless you're soloing 24/7, the math favors troll regen in most cases.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Crede [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

As Danth pointed out, your logic fails to account for any situation where a shaman isn't tanking. There's a hell of a lot more to the shaman class than just taking hits, which I mentioned many pages ago. You say you're talking about min/max, but you're really just talking about one specific area of shaman playstyle. So in regards to your #2, i don't know how you consider that most cases. Unless you're soloing 24/7, the math favors troll regen in most cases.

I have mentioned grouping/raiding in this thread multiple times, and I made a video!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bq39ybDWx-k

This is a faux raid situation. I am buffing 10 people in a row with STA/FoS, and two Primal Avatars thrown in. I get the WHOLE thing done in 12 minutes, 45 seconds. That is starting with 100% HP/Mana, and ending with 100% HP/Mana. A Troll would have regenerated 1024 extra HP in that time. That is less than 1 Torpor's worth of health. A Troll would have saved a grand total of 24 seconds of healing, before he stopped regenerating. In raids, you spend a lot of time waiting. That 24 seconds does nothing 99% of the time.

You can easily get hit in Group/Raid situations. Slows are a high agro spell. FSI can prevent an interrupt there too, so do not think FSI turns off in a Group or a Raid.

In a raid situation, if an actual mob focuses on you for more than 18 seconds, you are dead anyway. Shamans just don't mitigate damage well in Raid situations. Troll Regeneration will not save you from the focused fury of a serious mob.

In a group situation, you are rarely spending more mana in a short period of time than the video above. This is because a group (3+ people) has WAY faster DPS, shared HP pools, shared Mana pools, and shared responsibilities.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Here is the irony when people want to argue "Ogre Shaman is Min/Max for soloing/duoing, Troll Shaman is Min/Max for raiding".

If you really want to claim ANY damage mitigation is superior to FSI in a raid situation, then Trolls lose the Min/Max debate for raids anyway. JBB, Snare Neck, Jaundiced Armor, Slam, and Barbarian Spiritist Hammer have no use in raids. This means IKSARS are the best raiding Shaman. They have regeneration, an AC bonus, better default resistances than a Troll, AND a smaller default body build (This is useful when corpse recovery is done in a dangerous area, where a tall race could agro stuff). They can also forage, which means they need to buy/summon food and drink less in poop sock situations. Starting stats on a Shaman are not relevant since you can already buff your stats to a large degree.

So I wouldn't be too hasty to try and use this logic to prove Trolls are superior in raiding situations[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[Jimjam]

The most important thing is having the most recognisable silhouette possible.

Barbarian best raid shaman as doesn’t look like shadowknight and few wars are barbarian.

Under geared melee need to berate you for not loading avatar or having a pe hammer in the smallest time possible. Also, to a lesser degree it helps for buff requests and staying in torpor range.

[kjs86z]

rofl all this paper napkin math

FSI might save you on a tough string of RNG, mistakes, etc.

Regen is not going to save you when things go tits up.

This only matters when soloing difficult stuff. Any other situation in game is trivial.

Troll is good for people not pushing the upper limits of their character but want to min/max (lol). Barb looks cool. Iksar has stuff.

Just stop it already...you're scaring the children.

[DMN]

Originally Posted by kjs86z [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

rofl all this paper napkin math

FSI might save you on a tough string of RNG, mistakes, etc.

Regen is not going to save you when things go tits up.

This only matters when soloing difficult stuff. Any other situation in game is trivial.

Troll is good for people not pushing the upper limits of their character but want to min/max (lol). Barb looks cool. Iksar has stuff.

Just stop it already...you're scaring the children.

Eh, they both could save you if the situation presents itself. it's just incredibly unlikely either of them will actually do so in typical shaman solo play.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by kjs86z [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

rofl all this paper napkin math

FSI might save you on a tough string of RNG, mistakes, etc.

Regen is not going to save you when things go tits up.

This only matters when soloing difficult stuff. Any other situation in game is trivial.

Troll is good for people not pushing the upper limits of their character but want to min/max (lol). Barb looks cool. Iksar has stuff.

Just stop it already...you're scaring the children.

This is not paper napkin math[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] This is the actual math of the game lol. Not sure why people are having such a hard time with this.

Of course all racials are trivial on Torpor Shamans. But that doesn't mean it isn't good to know which racial is the best for people who want to Min/Max.

If you don't care about that, then it doesn't matter to you[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] Some players like Min/Maxing, some players don't. There is nothing wrong with having this discussion between people who want to know which racial is the best.

[Crede]

While I still believe troll is the best min max shaman race, I’d definitely go iksar if I rolled another one due to not being a fatty and to robequest. And still getting the best shaman trait - regen

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Crede [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

While I still believe troll is the best min max shaman race, I’d definitely go iksar if I rolled another one due to not being a fatty and to robequest. And still getting the best shaman trait - regen

You are completely free to believe Trolls are the best for you. Just please don't say something is factually the best when it isn't. The math is against Troll Regeneration for Torpor Shamans. I am not saying Regeneration isn't helpful, or good. It just isn't the best compared to FSI, and it is easy to prove from a math perspective and a real situation perspective. I have videos! If you prefer regeneration, that is great! More power to you. That doesn't mean it is better factually.

As I have said many times already, Trolls ARE the best racial Pre-Torpor. If you are making a 52 Shaman for Naggy/Vox, Troll is the best race.

If you are making a guild bot, instead of a character you want to play yourself, Barbarian is the best race, due to it being the fastest race to level up.

If for some reason you are making a 60 Torpor Shaman ONLY for raiding, and you will never (or rarely) solo or group, Iksar is the best race. The clickies they lose out on are irrelevant for raiding, they have the best total damage mitigation from racials, they have the ability to use https://wiki.project1999.com/Stone_of_Morid (best Fire and Cold resistance item for ranged slot. Only Warder Resistance Stones beat the individual resistances), and they have the smallest default character model size.

There are situations in which a specific race is better. But if you want to create a Min/Max level 60 Torpor Shaman with good gear that solos, groups, and raids, Ogres are the best due to FSI. This is why I say Ogres are generally the best Shaman race for Min/Max. I am fairly confident this is the normal situation for people creating Shamans. I haven't heard of a lot of people that don't play Shamans because of their powerful soloing abilities, for example.

[kjs86z]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This is not paper napkin math[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] This is the actual math of the game lol. Not sure why people are having such a hard time with this.

Of course all racials are trivial on Torpor Shamans. But that doesn't mean it isn't good to know which racial is the best for people who want to Min/Max.

If you don't care about that, then it doesn't matter to you[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] Some players like Min/Maxing, some players don't. There is nothing wrong with having this discussion between people who want to know which racial is the best.

I just helped your argument without any need to use numbers be it paper napkin or otherwise.

No one cares about guild bot leveling, vox alts, etc. Those answers are obvious. The only aspect of this discussion that matters is what is best when you're pushing your character to its limit by soloing difficult targets....be it for the pure challenge or for plat.

FSI is the only racial that has a chance of saving you if things go tits up. Period.