What's the deal with mages?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Solo: they can do it better than many but not top tier. Lack of CC holds them back.

Duo/Trio/group: They are top tier dps in groups, really only second to charm pets. Melee aren’t really going to be able to keep up, other than an exceptionally well geared rog (not your typical “I have epic and an EC bought offhand). They are cheap to gear and relaxed to play.

Raid: their job changes completely. pets typically not allowed in many boss fights. Nukes have a hard time landing if at all. No lure or bane. They typically are gonna mod rod and coth along with some DA tricks.

Summary

Cons: very limited utility. No CC at all other than offtank with pet.

Pros: they are monsters in the dps department for group content. For what they do, they do it exceptionally well. For anything else, you’re going to be disappointed.



I xp’d for a few hours on my mage today. I don’t have water staff. My unfocused pet properly positioned averaged 80-85dps with max summon and self buffs only. Toss it a str or str/focus stack and it would have been higher. Average combined dps for the 3 hour session was 115dps plus whatever my 33pt DS on the tank was contributing on all the unslowed mobs. Highest burn was 3 mobs in a bad pull back to back with combined dps 200+ during the fun. We cycled three rogues (2 over 55 with epic) through the group and none of them were even close.

It’s not a “they can do good dps in a group” situation … the only thing that will beat them is a charm pet quadding and hasted (scaling up depending on the zone/content).

Again. From today’s session I could only parse pet hits, backstabs, DD procs and my own nukes. Every time someone in the group got hit by anything, add another 33 damage points. I wish there were some way to effectively parse that as well without going back and counting each time someone in the group took a hit.

PS: properly positioned a water pet not tanking will do more dps than epic pet. If epic pet is tanking it’s no contest due to that monster DS and water let’s inability to backstab.

Can you post your logs? Most people I've seen show water pet doing 60ish DPS with backstabbing. Epic pet does 90 DPS. These numbers do not include Damage Shield.

From my understanding a Mage can do 100 DPS with water pet + Boots of Bladecalling, 90 DPS with burnt staff. With DS you can get an extra 18 or so, depending on the situation.

Rogue with Epic is doing 133ish DPS last time I parsed one in an XP group.

[enjchanter]

I've parsed my epic pet on mobs lvl 50+ and it's definitely not doing 100dps on its own

[Troxx]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Can you post your logs? Most people I've seen show water pet doing 60ish DPS with backstabbing. Epic pet does 90 DPS. These numbers do not include Damage Shield.

From my understanding a Mage can do 100 DPS with water pet + Boots of Bladecalling, 90 DPS with burnt staff. With DS you can get an extra 18 or so, depending on the situation.

Rogue with Epic is doing 133ish DPS last time I parsed one in an XP group.

As has been shown in another thread 449 pages in length, “your understanding” of Mage is severely lacking. Boots of bladecalling has a 17 second cast time man. Great situational item but depending on kill speed you might not even get the click off before the mob is dead. For what it’s worth I have neither of those mana free clickies. I find my spell book to be perfectly sufficient.

I’ll compile parses tomorrow after work. Current iteration of Level 60 water pet at max summon, burnout IV, and muzzle is well above 60dps on group content. It typically equals if not out-performs epic pet following the nerf (epic no longer quads for 80) if positioned appropriately. It’s not a better global pet mind you, but in the singular role of putting out damage it does so quite well. By itself it will typically beat out the vast majority of melee to include your standard epic/EC group geared rogue.

I haven’t ever consistently parsed a rog doing “133ish DPS” without velious raid gear (well beyond epic).

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by enjchanter [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I've parsed my epic pet on mobs lvl 50+ and it's definitely not doing 100dps on its own

Allishia posted some logs of her Epic Pet, which I parsed. It was doing 85-90 DPS on blue con mobs, including all the procs. This was with Burnout IV and a Muzzle. When tanking, the Epic Damage Shield is doing around 25-30 DPS on unslowed blue mobs. The mob gets hit for 50 damage per hit.

In a group the Epic Pet isn't going to be tanking generally speaking, so you are going to be losing some DPS by using a casted DS. You'll lose more DPS if you are slowing the mob.

People don't seem too keen on posting full logs of a Water pet. It would be nice to just get some full logs of a Water pet so we can parse them.

From the last batch of data Troxx gave (no logs sadly):

This data is reportedly from a group Troxx had in Sebilis Crypt:

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His pet is buffed with Burnout IV, and it is a level 60 Water Pet Unfocused. Pet level is guessed at 1 level under max, since a few parses show the max hit of 58.

Average pet DPS using the "DPS" value: (52 + 55 + 50 + 57 + 75 + 52 + 56 + 60 + 46) / 9 = 56 DPS. EDIT: switching to "DPS" value since I am not sure what "scaled" is accounting for.

I think Troxx said Gamparse included the pet procs in the player DPS instead of the pet DPS. So this sounds about right according to his own data. The Epic Pet was doing about 6 procs per minute, and the Water pet DD is 100ish. Assuming 6 procs per minute, that is about 11 DPS, so 56 + 11 is roughly 67 DPS.

He can post the raw logs though so we can parse them instead. He doesn't like doing that for some strange reason.

Boots of Bladcalling/Burnt Wood Staff will do more DPS than mana nukes. You cannot regenerate the mana fast enough to consistently do 35 DPS. You can consistently spam boots/staff. Your average fight time in those parses was 27 seconds, so you could do 1x Boots click + 1x Staff click for 34 DPS per mob.

[Troxx]

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I don't have time to do it all tonight. Here's an isolated fight I found vs VS pit mob Spectral Knight (among the highest level in the zone) where I didn't nuke at all. Pet melee dps clocks in at 78dps. When you factor in his single nuke of 116 (attributed to Ailowen), the pet was 83.4dps. DS added a total of 231 dmg this fight for an additional 10dps.

Isolated example but pretty consistent with what was happening for 3 straight hours.
Even sitting on her ass, my mage contributed ~90 passive dps.

Gamparse gets weird when you combine loads of fights where you're pulling 3-6 mobs at a time and deflects everyone's dps downward. What I can say was in this group over the last half hour my nukes and my pet was fully 64.78% of the total damage done not factoring in dmg shield.

Rogue was epic.
Warrior (56) was rocking epic 2hs
Mindmelt was a god of a bardly puller
We had near permanent drive by c2 and enchanter haste on top of bard song

But yes. Mages are top tier group dps for leveling. My mage has zero raid gear, no water focus staff, and no epic.

More to come tomorrow.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

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I don't have time to do it all tonight. Here's an isolated fight I found vs VS pit mob Spectral Knight (among the highest level in the zone) where I didn't nuke at all. Pet melee dps clocks in at 78dps. When you factor in his single nuke of 116 (attributed to Ailowen), the pet was 83.4dps. DS added a total of 231 dmg this fight for an additional 10dps.

Isolated example but pretty consistent with what was happening for 3 straight hours.
Even sitting on her ass, my mage contributed ~90 passive dps.

Gamparse gets weird when you combine loads of fights where you're pulling 3-6 mobs at a time and deflects everyone's dps downward. What I can say was in this group over the last half hour my nukes and my pet was fully 64.78% of the total damage done not factoring in dmg shield.

Rogue was epic.
Warrior (56) was rocking epic 2hs
Mindmelt was a god of a bardly puller

Yeah no worries about doing it tonight. Just post the raw logs when you get time and I can parse them. Your previous data showed 75ish DPS as well on a single fight, but the average was much lower. Most of the DPS parses from your crypt data weren't in the 70s, they were in the 50s.

Since Gamparse "gets weird" when fighting multiple mobs, we need to parse the logs manually.

[Troxx]

You want me to post 3 hours worth of raw logs?

Lol

Remember that the previous set of mobs was seb crypt. These fights are from Waffle House (Karnors Castle). Mob level will have a big impact on dps - pet dps and player melee dps alike. I did pick this particular set of mobs as they were the highest we could pull given how overcamped the zone was. I tried to pick the toughest mobs, not the green con spectral curates that my pet would occasionally crack 95-105 dps on.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You want me to post 3 hours worth of raw logs?

Lol

Remember that the previous set of mobs was seb crypt. These fights are from Waffle House (Karnors Castle). Mob level will have a big impact on dps - pet dps and player melee dps alike.

No. I'll parse the raw logs for you. Just post them please.

[Troxx]

In another thread in sub forum there is a relevant thread titled something like “mage epic —— game changer?”. There’s good information there.

Originally Posted by Snaggles [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

No it's not a gamechanger unless your game is farming green cons or duoing with it as your tank.

Higher DS, more hps, stun proc, higher melee hits. A pretty no-brainer for that stuff. It seems to always come out the same level hitting for 67's too where the water pet can take half a dozen summons or so to get a 60'hitter. The earth pet is quite durable, non-focused hits for 60 tops and bashes, and is the only one with a root proc that lands on all sorts of stuff. So in short our pets are great and one is simply the best all-around performer.

I don't have the mage epic but a lot of my guildies do have it. I have done a LOT of parsing with the focused water pet. I'll usually bring the mage instead of my ranger just out of curiosity to small group kills. Fay, Uulump, Lhranc, Miragul, Xenvorash, etc. With proper positioning for backstabs the water does about 10% more on red cons that won't get hit with the pet's spell damage. I expect on on stuff that the spells land on it's closer to equal (I can't see other spell dmg parses). With horrid positioning, the epic pulls ahead because it's not reliant on backstabs.

Compared to players, on stuff like Vindi, it falls mid-tier for DPS; out of say 30 people meleeing it's often in the low teens. That's more a testament to how bad most melees parse though than how good a water pet is. I spent a couple of hours in seb and my water pet was trading coin flips with our 57 rogue on who was doing more DPS, and that was without a proper tank knowing where to aim a mob. It was doing consistently about twice the dps of our 55 ranger.

If you see the mage as a +1 DPS and are ignoring COTH, Mala/sini, nukes, and the DS it's still a great class. The pet on normal grind stuff performs far better than the average melee and never pulls aggro. On red cons like Vindi, it still holds up ok (and again never pulls aggro). What not having the epic does cost you is a ton of stats and the annoyance of having to recycle pets for a "good one" when you need to help out.

Would I love the epic? Sure, hell yea. I might end up with an earth staff someday if the stars align. I don't personally feel I'm lacking anything though. Put velocity on the water pet and get good at changing its position and quickly re-attacking. Just pretend you arent a warmbody rogue and even a filthy casual mage can keep up.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...37&postcount=9

The point is that the mage water pet by itself does more than enough damage (by itself) to put mages in the top tier for dps. This ignores the direct contributions from the mage itself - nukes, DS, malo (situational), rod (situational), coth (situational).

Melees simply cannot compete unless they are atrociously overgeared for the content. Even then, the combination of the pet and the mage together still keeps the mage, at worst, extremely competitive if not still better.

For what mages are good at, they are REALLY good at it. Globally? They don’t scale with raid gear, can’t reliably land nukes on raid mobs, and don’t have any meaningful cc.

Like it or not, they are top tier group dps. For solo they are capable enough to never need a group to efficiently hit 60.

They aren’t bad, their role just changes into something entirely different in raids. Still of vital importance … but completely unlike what they do from level 1 to 60 in non raid environments.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

In another thread in sub forum there is a relevant thread titled something like “mage epic —— game changer?”. There’s good information there.



https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...37&postcount=9

The point is that the mage water pet by itself does more than enough damage (by itself) to put mages in the top tier for dps. This ignores the direct contributions from the mage itself - nukes, DS, malo (situational), rod (situational), coth (situational).

Melees simply cannot compete unless they are atrociously overgeared for the content. Even then, the combination of the pet and the mage together still keeps the mage, at worst, extremely competitive if not still better.

For what mages are good at, they are REALLY good at it. Globally? They don’t scale with raid gear, can’t reliably land nukes on raid mobs, and don’t have any meaningful cc.

Like it or not, they are top tier group dps. For solo they are capable enough to never need a group to efficiently hit 60.

They aren’t bad, their role just changes into something entirely different in raids. Still of vital importance … but completely unlike what they do from level 1 to 60 in non raid environments.

Based on the data I've seen they are not top tier DPS.

Your own data shows your pet doing around 67 DPS in Crypt, which is consistently being out-done by the Enchanter. With Nukes you are doing basically 100 DPS, + 18 DPS or so with DS, assuming the optimal scenario for DS.

Rogues are going to be doing higher damage than that too on blue mobs. As I said before, the last Rogue I parsed in Crypt was doing around 133 DPS on blue mobs.

The Rogue you are grouping with is level 52. They might have been lower when you grouped with them, as they started at 49 today. This means your DPS is going to be higher naturally. They have Epic and a 0.5 ratio weapon in offhand. 34% worn haste.