The best bard on the raid should be in the tank group

[wuanahto]

Originally Posted by Naethyn [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Maybe in the current raid meta, but historically raid meta can change, and optimizations like bard in the tank group are what kills mobs.

so 50 rogues, couple pullers, few tanks and just enough alt account clerics?

[aaezil]

Originally Posted by Naethyn [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Bard produces 61 damage shield.

Bard produces 20 mana a tick.
20 mana a tick = 200 mana per minute
Complete heal = 350 mana
17.5 bard ticks = 1 Complete Heal
10 minute fight = 2000 mana
5 complete heals
7 minutes = 1,400 mana
1,400 mana / 350 = 4 CH
5 clerics * 4 CH = 20 CH per 7 minutes

*A bard singing two DS songs and CHA can cap an ogre warrior on DI.

Doesnt your guild bring like 150 people to each dragon justsaying

[Videri]

What are they supposed to do, tell some of them to go home?

[aaezil]

Originally Posted by Videri [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

What are they supposed to do, tell some of them to go home?

Im just concerned why bother with min max at that point

[enjchanter]

Unironically I always thought it would actually be fun to be a dps bard on raids. Not personal dps , but like in the melee groups doing atk / ds / resist songs instead of mana bot

Sadly raiding is brain dmg tho

[Toxigen]

Originally Posted by 7thGate [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Matters for Vindi sometimes. How many people show up for Vindi varies a lot by guild and time of day. Its possible for even Riot to fail to muster for a 3 AM Vindi, and plenty of kills go down with 20 people where a Bard DSing the Tank/Ramp Tank is relevant.

yeah but nobody gives a shit about vindi

[7thGate]

Originally Posted by Toxigen [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

yeah but nobody gives a shit about vindi

Eh, Vindi's average DKP spend is higher than a decent chunk of the raid targets in the game in my experience. We killed Vindi 136 times last year in Sanctum and hes still a 50-60 dkp average spend; people want this drops. In terms of DKP value paid out its like 40 Vindis to a Vulak for us. Its just spread out improving 40 people's alts/low attendance mains vs. upgrading 3 dedicated players.

I bet if "All the Vindis" was a draft option, it would go early round 2 most of the time. 21 Vindis is pretty decent value vs. a single NToV dragon, even if its not quite competitive with top tier targets.

[Naethyn]

Originally Posted by enjchanter [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Unironically I always thought it would actually be fun to be a dps bard on raids. Not personal dps , but like in the melee groups doing atk / ds / resist songs instead of mana bot

Sadly raiding is brain dmg tho

Determining if bards providing atk to a full group of rogues is better than mana song is next on my list to figure out.

[7thGate]

Originally Posted by Naethyn [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Determining if bards providing atk to a full group of rogues is better than mana song is next on my list to figure out.

Its hard to tell because the impact of +ATK is hard to parse out and it probably varies a lot by mob AC. My very rough approximation from experience is that Avatar is approximately +10% damage. Epic Bard is about half an Avatar, so guesstimating +25% of a Rogue from boosting a group, then they bring their own melee which is probably like 1/3 of a Rogue. Might be a bit better than that or a bit worse, but likely below a Rogue in total damage added.

Its obviously better to be pumping Rogue DPS vs. cleric mana on a fight like Trak or anything in VP where there's a lot of burst need and the fight is going to be done in 20 seconds. For something like AOW, if you have a 7 minute AOW, your math would indicate 20 CHs, which would be like 15-20 seconds of additional cleric mana for the raid to DPS. Raid is DPSing at 2380 for that time, so you basically do about 35-50k damage from extending the raid's DPS lifetime.

I'm almost positive you don't do 83 dps from boosting the DPS group, that's probably close to top tier rogue performance and I've never seen a non-pet break that level on Avatar (I also don't generally group with rogues running BIS though, I wouldn't be surprised if a BIS rogue could hit that sometimes).

Overall, its probably a shift where on some targets its better, some its worse and some its kind of equivalent-ish. Also really depends on how much DPS vs. cleric mana you have going on.

[aussenseiter]

Originally Posted by 7thGate [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Eh, Vindi's average DKP spend is higher than a decent chunk of the raid targets in the game in my experience. We killed Vindi 136 times last year in Sanctum and hes still a 50-60 dkp average spend; people want this drops. In terms of DKP value paid out its like 40 Vindis to a Vulak for us. Its just spread out improving 40 people's alts/low attendance mains vs. upgrading 3 dedicated players.

I bet if "All the Vindis" was a draft option, it would go early round 2 most of the time. 21 Vindis is pretty decent value vs. a single NToV dragon, even if its not quite competitive with top tier targets.

Any number of 8 hour respawns is never worth a weeklong respawn.

Stop the fucking.