Game Mechanics: Pulling while Invisible

[Treats]

As is right now on P99 you can cast on a mob while someone else is casting Invisibility on you and ONLY aggro the mob you were casting on while running anywhere you please in the zone. Logged on EQMac to see if this actually worked.

Different types of spells there seem to give different results
Some will break the Invis once the spell has finished (Bolts/Lifetaps/Anything that seems to be emitting or having an effect on the player from a spell)

The above however doesn't really matter. In all of the scenarios I tried while keeping the Invisibility up it did not work. None of these mobs could See Invis.

Scenario 1:

Shaman started Invis on me
Casted spell on one mob in a pack of two
Spell lands while Invisible
Both mobs aggro disregarding the Invis that was cast on me

Scenario 2:

Aggroed one mob
Rooted mob and built aggro
Shaman Invis'd me
Ran through a pack of about 4 mobs (No aggro on them while Invis)
Root wears off original mob
Paths through the pack of mobs I ran through
Every one of them aggro'd disregarding my Invis as the original mob ran through them

I just don't see how Invis pulling through packs on Live was possible. I sure don't remember it. It would have been a huge mechanic flaw that would have been fixed ASAP.

Does anyone have any hard evidence that this was possible on Live during the Kunark/Velious Era? It certainly is not on the PoP locked server.

[Dumesh Uhl'Belk]

Only my own testimony. I used my CoS for this all the time. I would DoT the evil eye in LGuk (while still low enough level to aggro random live frogs) pop invis with CoS and then run back through to the undead bridge, IVU, and then continue running all the way to Frenzy or Lord... only the evil eye would follow me to camp.

There are many other places where I did similar things. The evil eye was just the most fun.

[Xadion]

There was a reason why they nerfed the CoS- there is a reason why it was selling for millions of plat during velious and luclin.... CoS single pulling worked on live, it just was not as widely known- as did fd-stand/hide pulling- it was this way on live I believe throughout Luclin or close to the end of Luclin.

Why are we having this discussion AGAIN? we have had it about 3 or 4 times now... invs pulling worked on live and works as it should on p99

[Treats]

Originally Posted by Xadion [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

There was a reason why they nerfed the CoS- there is a reason why it was selling for millions of plat during velious and luclin.... CoS single pulling worked on live, it just was not as widely known- as did fd-stand/hide pulling- it was this way on live I believe throughout Luclin or close to the end of Luclin.

Why are we having this discussion AGAIN? we have had it about 3 or 4 times now... invs pulling worked on live and works as it should on p99

The reason why it did work in some areas was because of FACTION. Some mobs simply did not assist others because of this. Yes you could run through a pack of mobs while invisible as long as they did not see invis and assist the NPC that was chasing you.

I'm sure some people did believe that the CoS single pulling did work on Live. They simply did not understand the mechanics of what was happening. Most likely while they were pulling they got lucky and performed a successful mem blur on all of the mobs while feigning and thought it was because of their Circlet. The same with Hide.

Here are a few examples of how it works currently on P99 and why it is a little far fetched.

Example 1

Lets say I want to pull Fungi King (or the PH in Sebilis)
Monk casts Pumice on Fungi King
Other player invises Monk before Pumice hits Fungi King
Monk is invisible as Pumice hits
At this point aggro and assist should be checked from the Fungi King NOT the player (see Example 2 of why this is really fucked up)
Monk runs away invisible (nothing the Monk runs by at this point should be aggroing)
Fungi King chases after him and should be passing aggro to everything that comes into assist radius
Just because the Monk is Invisible does not mean the Fungi King cannot see him (he is on his hate list afterall)
The other NPCs cannot see the Monk but they can see the Fungi King
This should not prevent Fungi King from passing his hate list and asking for assist
Any NPC that would normally assist Fungi King should

Example 2

Lets say now I want to pull Tolapumj
Tolapumj sees invisible
Monk casts Pumice on Tolapumj
Tolapumj aggroes Monk, begins chasing him and passing his aggro list to all other Juggs in the area
Monk pops an Invis potion
Monk Feigns Death
Monk Stands up and if a successful mem blur was not performed on Tolapumj he continues chasing him
All other Juggs disregard assist and return to spawn/pathing because Monk is invisible
Tolapumj sees invisible, he can definately see the player so shouldn't he be passing his aggro?
So it does not even matter if the NPC you are pulling can See invisible or not it still WILL NOT pass the hate list to others
Again aggro is being checked from the player and not the NPC, this cannot be correct

Example 3

Lets fast forward to Velious
Say we have a Monk that is in West Temple of Veeshan, he is Ally to Claws of Veeshan
This Monk wants to pull Gozzrem to the West ToV zone out
Using the tactics explained above this is all the Monk would have to do
Monk aggros Gozzrem
As long as the Monk is moving by the other NPCS in West ToV (CoV faction) and Gozzrem is far enough behind they will not assist
While the Monk is moving by them they are checking his faction and seeing that he is Ally
It would not matter when Gozzrem is passing by the other NPCS
Again the aggro is being checked at the player and NOT the NPC (he is Ally and not in assist radius of the NPC he has aggro'd)

This is the exact same premise, only using faction instead of invisible (even though invis is a faction modifier)

[baub]

I admittedly skimmed this thread. Invis pulling is possible on Al'Kabor, for example:

The kromzek captain in WW for bracer of bene

He sees invis, his 8 (or whatever) adds do not.

Step 1. Be invis
Step 2. Body pull
Step 3. He's single

[Xadion]

As for your verbose explanation about faction vs invs vs hide etc...

all KoS/agro/etc IS - is faction ... even while agroed upon a mob if you hide you will see your faction change to threat- so while you are going on about differing WAYS to pull and how they are faction or invs related- it all is the same, invs is faction- hence why you can do the Shadowknight epic with hide turn ins- and yes that is classic and proper workings.

The WAYS of pulling yes changes the outcome- if you- as baub says pull the kromzek captian by prox agro while invs then he will be solo if you get away from him once agroed before he hits you and breaks invs while in range of other mobs- this is also the same for your tolojump example- there is no reason to throw or cast anything on tolo - just get within agro range while invs and he will be solo (providing no juggs are random see invs). So I am sorry I did not go into paragraphs of random examples etc etc to say that I disagree with you and everything is working as it should on p99 within a VERY acceptable reason when it comes to pulling/invs/doubbleinvs etc- I am also sorry if you did not know that this issue has indeed been discussed many, many times in the past- and not just this issue but the FD/Invs/pulling/doubble invs has indeed been talked about in depth- so I am nicely then trying to inform you of this- and I am sorry and I am not trying to troll you- but the issues you have are with known, working, proper game mechianics vs what you think should happen. I admit, I was a shadowknight on live from April 1999 untill like oow/GoD kinda- mostly quit after finishing time... so I am not exactly sure on all the minor nuances of a monk...

edit:
It is also why npcs while you are invs will talk to you etc as if your faction is correct- do note many patch notes that warn you not to interact with quest giver while invs as it may lead you to belive you have the wrong faction- also I belive there was a patch that did infact change how invs worked and how agro generation worked while being invs etc- I will have to search some of the patch records- but I am 95% sure they where after or at the end of luclin.

[Treats]

Originally Posted by baub [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I admittedly skimmed this thread. Invis pulling is possible on Al'Kabor, for example:

The kromzek captain in WW for bracer of bene

He sees invis, his 8 (or whatever) adds do not.

Step 1. Be invis
Step 2. Body pull
Step 3. He's single

This could have something to do with one or all of the giants being set to the wrong faction to assist, I do not know. This is what I found.

See here about halfway down the page:

http://www.castle-grounds.co.uk/eq/benevolence.htm

*WARNING* - It seems that someone is not amused at the way the Captain is being singled out, and that wandering Dragons are AIDING the Giants. *sigh* So keep an eye out for those Dragons with 'I love Giants' t-shirts wandering around.

Also see here, no invis needed:

http://monklybusiness43508.yuku.com/...3#.T_RdCKnB-uI

At 60, i just used proximity agro to pull him, i don't know if that works if you're below 60

it's duable with 1 monk (lvl61), 2 cleric (lvl56 and 61) and a shaman (lvl61), but sure not the right way to do it, warrior as MA is much more mana conserving than a monk as MA.
Pulling works fine w/o harmony and summoned shurikens

In response to Xadion --

all KoS/agro/etc IS - is faction ... even while agroed upon a mob if you hide you will see your faction change to threat- so while you are going on about differing WAYS to pull and how they are faction or invs related- it all is the same, invs is faction- hence why you can do the Shadowknight epic with hide turn ins- and yes that is classic and proper workings.

This is exactly what I explained in the third example.

Lets say an Enchanter on Project 1999 goes into West Freeport.
His faction is Kindly to the guards there.
This person wants to kill the Guard that is standing near the East Freeport zoneline.
He wants to pull the Guard out and through the front gates to the EC zoneline to kill.

In theory here on P99 he should be able to root the guard at the East Freeport zoneline and then run out without ANY aggro to the East Commons zone. When the root breaks the guard should come all by himself just like the way that Invis pulling works.

As he runs by each guard on his way out they will con Kindly to him.
When the root breaks and the Guard comes running to find him every single guard will assist him on the way out creating a huge mess of Guards.
Remember he conned ALLY as he ran by each of them on his way out yet they are still assisting the guard that the Enchanter had rooted.

Lets try something different now.
Enchanter roots the guard.
Enchanter runs out to the East Commonlands zoneline.
Enchanter invises himself.
He has now DROPPED his faction from Kindly to Indifferent on each one of the Guards that the rooted one will pass, yet NONE of them will assist.

Aggro is as you and I both have previously stated due to faction.
Why is it that the other Guards WILL aggro and change to Threatening when the player cons Kindly?
Why is it that the other Guards WILL NOT aggro when the player cons Indifferent?

Baub, is there any chance you can try and body pull Tolapumj the same way as the Kromzek Captain (or any see invis Jugg would work) on the Mac server and see what you find? I do not have a high enough level character there to test it.

[Xadion]

More on faction

faction is the mechanic used for if a mob attacks you, responds to hails, quest turn ins etc etc

however when you agro a mob- there are many things it does- mobs all react and do things differantly when agroed in certian ways- if you attack a mob - attack, spell, throwing somethign etc- it broadcasts its agro saying Xplayer is attacking me- in reality it just places "you" at that spot- an orc says "Xadion" orc lego will see "xadion" because his friend says so- but if I am invs he sees me and does nothing- but i have to be invs at the time of the agro initiated broadcast- now this WAS changed in a patch note somewhere - where the agro broadcast also SHARES 'faction' saying Xadion is here my faction is X he is Y- if yours it X it should be Y-

also agro range, and range of "broadcast" changes or /should/ by level- think of it as a radius around the mob you agroed- it gets smaller and smaller based on level of you vs mob-- I destinctly remeber on live there was a "magic" level in seb and lguk where even a warrior could single pull (56 or 58) by arrow or whatever- I dont think it works this way on p99 as i think the agro broadcast range is set rather than variant of level of player vs mob.

having direct / engaged agro on a mob sets a max faction- invs/hide etc has a set bump up of faction- this is so someone MAX kos invs still works- vs someone barely kos invs working but not max kos? its all numbers/levels.. you can see this by getting agro- con mob = ready to attack, invs - then con = threateningly- the invs is bumping up the faction to the "baseline of current status" engaged hostile baseline is threat- non engaged baseline is indiff- mobs do not share their status of engaged hostile status untill the patch change in late luclin/pop, they just share that X player is "there"

[Brinkman]

Originally Posted by Treats [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

.
Why is it that the other Guards WILL aggro and change to Threatening when the player cons Kindly?
Why is it that the other Guards WILL NOT aggro when the player cons Indifferent?

Treats I understand your frustration, I do not like how this mechanic works either. However, this is classic and how it's supposed to work. When I was at the EQ Dallas fantasy faire 2001 there was a discussion that poped up about this.

Here is how a Dev layed it out to make it simple.

Invis is an automatic Indifferent, non-changing ( this is key ) faction status. Think of it as faction immunity. The ONLY way this faction can be changed is by removing invis, or something that can see invis can see through it. This faction immunity does not erase or " mem blur" anything already on your hate list, it does however "block" any hate from being transfered ( I.E. guards not careing about other guards chasing after an invis person)

You even answered your own question. you said " Why WILL guards agro and CHANGE to threat "

Change is the key word here. Your faction towards them changed.They are now pissed at you, which is why they give chase and attack.

They gives two shits about whats going on while you are invis, because they are indifferent towards you. And that indifferent status will not change because Invis will not allow it to. ( immunity )



When your invis, your faction is indifferent all the way.

[Treats]

Haven't checked this thread in awhile, missed your posts Brinkman.

That pretty much explains it then.

Only one question left:

If you are pulling an NPC that can See invisible, is it then able to pass it's hate onto other surrounding NPCs even if you are invisible?