Enchanter charm isn't classic, we all know this

[TheDudeAbides]

Originally Posted by Tecmos Deception [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

No. It's demonstrating that the enchanter didn't know how to manage a charm break. How often charm breaks happen has nothing to do with the correct way to handle the break. And "have your tank intercept it with a taunt" is not the right way.


People strawmanning "yep the human race probably wasn't as intelligent 20 years ago" are showing the human race isn't very intelligent TODAY either. We didn't need to be dumber 20 years ago to be bad at a brand new game or for the Prima guides and random-ass allakhazam comments to not do much to help players thoroughly learn the intricacies of EQ. The human race wasn't dumber 50 years ago than today, but that didn't stop people from not knowing cigarettes are bad for you. Something like that took decades to slowly get ingrained into the minds of a majority of people, and still today there are a non-trivial number of people who don't believe it. Why is it so hard to believe that people didn't fully understand how to use charm in p99 20 years ago?

I'm not even arguing it's correct here. I'm just pointing out that the arguments made for nerfing are non sequiturs.

People had access to the exact same spells 20 years ago they have today

There were many talented and clever players back then that knew the mechanics inside and out

The issue is not handling charm breaks

The issue is the reliability of Charm. This has been an issue on P99 from the very beginning. Everyone knew it was broken 10 years ago and nothing has ever been done about it

[Hroth]

Classic "experience" or classic mechanics, what is it that is actually more important to a classic server?

I personally think charm is way more powerful here than it ever was in '99, but for arguments sake let's say the P99 devs got the mechanics exactly right. The experience of 99% of the people who played in 1999 was that charm was far more unreliable and was only used as a gimmick or a last ditch effort. Even if they are correct, the mechanics as they exist here lead to game play that doesn't match classic. If the "P99 classic" charm mechanics were changed to be far more unreliable, the P99 experience would be much more similar to classic.

The classic mechanics of hybrid exp penalties and standard ZEMs also leads to very unclassic behaviors. In 1999 those things were not known at all, or only known by a tiny fraction of the playerbase. Consequently, people's class choice, whom they would group with, and where they would hunt was not at all affected by those classic mechanics. On P99 those mechanics dominate game play decisions. Ironically, removing those classic mechanics would actually encourage classic game play.

Why doesn't this server allow boxing? Classic mechanics certainly didn't prevent it.
We all know it isn't allowed because allowing it would destroy the classic experience. Imho, it is stupid to allow other classic mechanics to achieve the same effect. I'm here for the game play, not for mechanics that are perfectly true to ones that the world didn't even know existed in 1999.

As an aside, I think charm may not have been possible to this extent in 1999 just because the population wouldn't allow it. Peak time zone populations were 100+ in lguk and 70+ in solb on my server. No one was going to allow an enchanter to solo a camp or lock up mobs to kill when there was a small army of people at the zone line just waiting for their name to come up on a list so they could get some exp. Heck, I remember it was common to have 2 full groups inside Oggok killing guards. No one was going to allow a single necro to solo the whole zone. Lower level zones were not any better either. The world was a crowded place.

[Ligma]

Green pet pulling was a thing starting in luclin yet people still insisted on using monks and bards to pull for several expansions. Literally any mob could be split instantly and be moved anywhere in the zone with no social agro.

People just weren't very good, and mostly are still pretty bad. Most guilds have always been carried by a small core, competent crew. And that's still true today.

[Rooj]

Originally Posted by kul69 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Channeling. You get it at level 1 without training and it works insanely often from the start. Channeling used to be something that built up over time but here you're like a level 50 channeler from start of game.

I've always wondered about this. I honestly could've sworn Channeling was pretty useless back then... and that if you got hit, you were damn near always interrupted. Whereas on P99 I feel like I can basically cast whatever I want, whenever I want.

[Buellen]

So after all these pages

I now see that the people saying it is not working right on p1999 think might be off but there is no proof of this with in era data i just cant find it.

Has anyone ask/looked where the formula for charming was based for project 1999? I am sure the devs are more knowledgeable about this matter?

data from 2000/2001/2002 as that is what is copyrighted by the company holding the site at the time of wayback capture.

https://web.archive.org/web/20040624...chanter&Page=2

( i cannot seem to figure out how to copy but this other site quoted it.)

https://web.archive.org/web/20050224...pic.php?t=1148

Q: What spell types are affected by Charisma?

A: Charisma does not directly affect any spell. Charisma affects what are known as 'saving throws' or 'secondary throws'.

When you cast a charm spell or mesmerise spell, the monster first checks against your level v it's level, then it checks against its resistance, then it checks against your charisma.

With duration spells such as charms, each tick the monster gets a saving throw and this process is repeated. If any one of these checks is successful (ie: you win the roll) then the spell holds.


Be aware thought that each of these checks is not just a 50 - 50 chance, formulas are in place which give each of these checks more or less of a chance for you to succeed.

Charisma has the smallest chance of succeeding. Your Level and the resistance type check have the greatest chance of you succeeding.

Hope this helps someone

[sentinel]

Chiming in -- played from day one vanilla to PoP.

Charm was absolutely not used as much back then. As mentioned here, it was more of a CC tool (which was likely its intended use).

I think we all agree charm is overpowered and probably game breaking (especially in vanilla), but unless we have the numbers it is hard to say whether it is any different now than back then.

My guess is charm was coded differently back then. I, and most other EQ nerds, loved reading Everlore, CastersRealm (don't see that getting mentioned as much by you youngins), and of course the official Verant forums. If it could have been abused like this, folks would have kicked and screamed. Chanter was a group support class back then.

[bwe]

P99 and EQEmu overtuned Charm and/or undertuned resists based on their best guess at recreating classic values. Now we have to prove that it's too overpowered instead of having to prove that the current power level is the way it was in classic. People are too attached to their OP (but super fun) enchanters for anything to ever change. /thread

[Vizax_Xaziv]

Originally Posted by sentinel [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

If it could have been abused like this, folks would have kicked and screamed. Chanter was a group support class back then.

See now people on P99, in their defense of Chanters, most commonly use the lines of "we just didn't have as much knowledge back then" and "we were less skilled at the game."

But here's the thing: all the knowledge we DO have now is the result of experimentation back then. On Tallon Zek we had a large number of extremely capable players at the endgame.

I played a Wizard in Vanilla and spent *LOTS* of time in the computer lab @ school on Everlore and Castersrealm. Like you said, if Enchanters (specifically Charm) was as powerful back then, it absolutely would have been nerfed. At the VERY LEAST the strength of the spell would have become common knowledge.

Are we supposed to believe that no Chanters in the top-end guilds like FOH and Triton ever experimented with their Charm Spells and/or Charisma builds? They figured out essentially EVERYTHING else about the game but never realized that Charm was overpowered?

I don't buy it!

[Ligma]

Are we supposed to believe that no Chanters in the top-end guilds like FOH and Triton ever experimented with their Charm Spells and/or Charisma builds? They figured out essentially EVERYTHING else about the game but never realized that Charm was overpowered?

The first AoW kills from LoS were completely dependent on charm.

[gnomishfirework]

I played a enchanter during velious.

I didn’t charm cause it was dangerous and would get me killed on breaks. I don’t recall it always breaking in 10 seconds. It’s just that we didn’t know to snare charmed mobs and keep them debuffed on resists. Didn’t see that until post PoP.

I think it was knowledge, not mechanics.

Still, if what people are claiming is true should be easy to find proof. Dunno why they’re making posts when a simple petition thread with the proof they are basing their opinions on would work better.

I’m guessing this thread was simply made by someone who is wrong.

I mean, it’s simple matter of your memories are clearly faulty since you all cannot find one shred of proof.