Rogue Partner

[hammertime7795]

Originally Posted by Estu [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I dunno, I'm skeptical. Charmed pet DPS is huge. If you're smart about charming mobs of appropriate level, you shouldn't be dealing with a ton of charm breaks. I don't see why mana would be a huge issue for a necro, either. Lich form gives a lot of mana, and pulling/fearing/snaring does not use much. If you spend any mana on DoTs, you're better off spending that mana on a charmed pet.

I think a lot of people play charm classes without charming much and they don't appreciate how powerful charm really is. It's an incredible tool.

Charm is down right hax. My necro will charm pets for 10 min + quite often that are 2x the dps of a summoned pet

[webrunner5]

Running around chasing a feared Darkness mob is about as much fun as a sharp stick in the eye. And even a Snared one gets old pretty quick. It is not much fun I can tell you.

Playing a Rogue well is really not as easy as a lot of people think. A lot of Tanks on here make NO effort to position a mob where it ought to be. Either for the Rogue or Casters. But that will change in Velious because the fights will last a LOT longer, and Tanks not worth crap will not be Tanks getting groups. Velious is where you have the old pen and paper ready for the Shit List names. [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[Wenuven]

Originally Posted by Estu [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I dunno, I'm skeptical. Charmed pet DPS is huge.

I dunno, I got most of my levels on my rogue via duo. I duod a LOT with both necros and druids. I'm not saying necros are a bad choice--just that druid was the clear winner in my experience.

But assuming you're right and the charming is worth the tradeoffs, lets not forget that when it comes to outdoor zones, there are probably more options with animals (for druid charm) than there are with undead.

The choice is partially correlated to how well-geared the rogue is. The worse gear the rogue has, the more the extra DPS from necro pet or charmed pet will skew the results. But in the end, the druid will still win due to the time-saving utility of SoW and ports. Easy choice IMO. [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[Bodybagger]

Rogue+rogue is a ton of fun, agro swapping trading backstabs, great way to melee grind duo, and bind wounding yourselves always to 50% gives you essentially full hp of one rogue with dmg of 2 full time backstabbing (max dps mode!)

Also can hide and sneak together.

Very fun and authentic way to play rogues, not gimpy chasing feared mobs and crap.
Backstab to the face for extra threat, turn off attack and hide to drop threat, very very manageable duo for killing singles and not bad for splitting doubles, more than that gets bad without cc though of course.

Only down side is competing for gear perhaps but most gear is bought so really it's just farming cash together and buying what you want, drop competition won't be an issue for anything that matters for LONG time.

That's probably my favorite of all the ways I've leveled a rogue, though duo with many others can be quite fun. Monk can also duo this swapping agro easily but not as effective to manage as rogue-rogue on single target threat swapping because FD is much more effective, however monk can split pulls and get fights down to 2v1 for most everything, making it a more efficient pve combo probably. SK works similarly well with melee+FD+aggro gaining abilities. Anything you can swap back and forth to help mitigate is great fun, but rogue maximizes by trading backstab exposure on mobs on threat swaps, best part is when it harmonizes with two equal rogues and each backstab just auto swaps threat!!!

[Shaniril]

Pure Melee

Warrior: can soak the hits while the rogue murders things, recovery between fights will be slower though. Great combination for starting groups though.

Rogue: trade aggro for constant backstabbing! again, slower recovery.

Monk: same as the warrior, but stuff will die a little faster and you have mend.

Priests

Cleric: Who doesn't love awesome heals and a res? You'll go oom quick trying to keep your rogue buddy alive against stronger mobs though. Might be able to fear kite some with snare proc weapons.

Shaman: Same as above, but with less healing and more offensive options, buffs and SoW.

Druid: Ports, SoW, Heals, Damage Shield... low healing though. Could easily kite stuff around keeping aggro with snare and flamelick though while the rogue (and maybe a charmed animal) does the work.

Pure Casters:

Wizard: Ports, big nukes, AoE snare. Probably one of the worst duo options for a rogue though (lots of medding between fights, no heals etc)

Mage: Sadly, mobs will always attack players over pets unless root is involved... which just happens to be a spell mages don't learn. T.T

Necro: Strong solo class in their own right, plus they fear kite for days which is something a rogue makes a great addition to.

Enchanter: Takes more work than a necro but also very strong at solo'ing using charm tactics. Chain stuns can make backstab a breeze plus as a duo you're very desirable in groups.

Hybrids

Paladin: Can heal and hold aggro for days. Gets res at higher level and can ghetto-mez with roots. Fairly low damage output though.

Ranger: Higher damage output than the paladin with lower survivability. In terms of what they bring to a duo with a rogue... honestly about the same set of tools as above.

Shadowknight: Self-heals from procs and lifetaps, sacrificial heals for the rogue. Fear kiting starting at level 15. Can hold aggro like a champ. If you're thinking necro but would rather melee this is a good choice.

Bard: Does everything, but takes a while to get there. regen based healing? check. Haste? check. run speed? check. snares? check. charms/mez? check. fear kiting? yessir. Hold aggro like a champ for all the backstabbing? yep.

[Wrench]

Originally Posted by webrunner5 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

A lot of Tanks on here make NO effort to position a mob where it ought to be. Either for the Rogue or Casters

im curious what you think this means, statler

[webrunner5]

Originally Posted by Wrench [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

im curious what you think this means, statler

I am not sure that is pointed toward me?? But what I mean say a Monk pulls a Mob. He FD on it and hopes that the Warrior can get agro on it quick so the Monk can get up and beat on it without getting agro. Now the best way I like to snag a mob on a Warrior, if you have plenty of them, is with a Arrow. On average it will come right to you. Monk still has to FD but you HAVE agro.

Ok the Positing thing. Say you also have a Rogue in the group. If the Warrior pushes the mob up against a wall the Rogue can not get behind it to Backstab or for that matter probably not even hit it. Same if he pushes the mob up onto the Casters.Where are the Monk, Rogue suppose to go. And guess what, the mob is right there to hit any of the casters sitting there medding. So caster dead, or can't sit to med, and no agro by the Warrior now.

So you can see why a Warrior or ANY Tank has to think about trying to Move, Push, Pull the Mob where the casters have a straight line of sight to even see the mob where it is or how close it is getting, and to have the DPS'ers able to be sort of behind the mob to hit it. A lot of Tanks just give no thought to were the mob is, they just run to it and start beating on it.

There is a LOT of thought involved in Tanking. And it will be more important in Velious because fight last minutes instead of seconds on here now. Now a lot of fights only last 30 to 45 seconds now so it is not as big of deal. But IF you do not try to learn how to do it at lower levels than if you do it becomes second nature to do it because you have seen how mobs can be moved, pulled, pushed by Tanks. In Raid situations usually the MT will push the mob up against a wall, to basically keep it penned up away for the healers out front and the squishy Casters behind them. If they die everybody dies.

I could go on longer here but I hope you get some of the points I stated to help you and others. Hope it sort of answers your question. [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[Estu]

Originally Posted by Wenuven [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I dunno, I got most of my levels on my rogue via duo. I duod a LOT with both necros and druids. I'm not saying necros are a bad choice--just that druid was the clear winner in my experience.

But assuming you're right and the charming is worth the tradeoffs, lets not forget that when it comes to outdoor zones, there are probably more options with animals (for druid charm) than there are with undead.

The choice is partially correlated to how well-geared the rogue is. The worse gear the rogue has, the more the extra DPS from necro pet or charmed pet will skew the results. But in the end, the druid will still win due to the time-saving utility of SoW and ports. Easy choice IMO. [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I don't want to have a nitpicky argument here, since it's kind of a minor question and probably is not going to change anything, but I really don't buy that a druid would be a better duo partner. SoW and ports are vastly overrated; you can easily find ports on this server with variations on "/who all", and you don't need SoW to kite a snared mob. In terms of outdoor zones, it's true that there are a decent number of animals to charm, but there are quite a lot of undead as well. However, I think that a rogue/necro duo could venture into a dungeon and fear kite effectively - certain open, relatively sparse areas could be cleared out mainly by the necro root-dotting stuff, and then used as arenas for fear-kiting. Then you could soak up that ZEM.

A big factor is that necros are better at fearing. Druids can only fear animals; necros can fear anything. If you're in a druid-rogue duo and the druid isn't fearing the target, that means the druid is aggro kiting with snare, which means he's less free to med and hence contribute his own DPS. The necro can lay down a snare and a fear, med, and add additional DPS as mana permits... not to mention, his mana regeneration is far superior due to lich form. So even without a charmed pet, the necro is going to be contributing a lot more DPS through damaging spells. Meanwhile, without a charmed pet, the druid is going to be contributing very little DPS; the necro at least has his little skeleton dude.

I don't really see any way in which a druid-rogue duo would beat out a druid-necro duo. The necro is just a more powerful class in almost every way than the druid.

[Conscript]

Originally Posted by webrunner5 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

...There is a LOT of thought involved in Tanking. And it will be more important in Velious because fight last minutes instead of seconds on here now...

I hope not. After over 10 years of WoW being out players should be professionals at re-positioning bosses since nearly every boss in modern MMO's have frontal cone AoE or a cleave.

[Wenuven]

Originally Posted by Estu [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

...

All of that stuff sounds good in theory, but doesn't mean diddly when fights last 30 seconds on average (didn't make this number up--its an average of a sample from 200 fights in OT from my logs).

I see from your sig that you have a level 53 rogue, but I question how much time you spent duoing with druids and necros. If you did a lot of it you would quickly see that you don't need any extra DPS from pets (or dots or whatever) to make the duo more effective. All you need is someone who can chain-pull at maximum speed with minimal downtime (i.e. druid). (Note about downtime: the extra mana cost of darkness, fear and lifetap FAR outweighs the mana regen provided by lich).

I spent many hours duoing with BOTH necros and druids on my rogue. It's how I got most of my levels. Despite having a druid main, I have no bias here. These were just my observations over time and the results were very clear.