Warrior Weapon HATE Tables

[Troxx]

Originally Posted by Legidias [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Why do warrior weapons hate tables though?

If accurate it would be a hugely useful tool. Really it just boils down to having accurate proc values and unfortunately this will always be guess work and rely extremely heavily on anecdotes which are inherently unreliable

What I can say (anecdotally but the observation has consistently held true) is that heavy poison and disease counter procs are wickedly strong. Standard stun procs, slow, and debuff procs are medium tier. Snare is decent but low-medium. Lifetaps compared to straight up DD are superior but below all previously mentioned. Procs with combinations seem to behave as if they factor in each component separately.

I have no experience with SoD anarchy proc (either personally or witnessed in action) but there are so few on the server it doesn’t matter.

Red epic makes for decent threat but it’s below infestation, WESS, willsapper, trident, and a few of the VP weapons for raw hate. The sum total for red epic (stats/resists) makes it a solidly good weapon worth using. For threat i’d put it in the general ballpark of Frostbringer.

We’ll never know precisely unless p99 devs give us the raw data.

[Phenyo]

Best warrior threat weapon is midnight mallet

[Troxx]

Yep and at ~700p recharge it’s SuPeR cheap to use (~140 per click). It’s also a lot less effective after the most recent patch. If it enables a boss fight to go smoothly you can argue that it’s cost effective.

The majority of threat produced still comes from white damage potential and procs; even on relatively short fights where a full 5 charge mallet is used.

[Goodest]

By saying he is wrong, it's your opinion. Yet he States facts he will be adding more data to it very soon epics he has SOD logs but the parse/logs are still being sorted.

That I have seen red sword is above all else. In all trails that we have tried.

[Cerate]

Swage let me borrow his SOD in a HoT raid awhile back, but since I wasn't trying to isolate a proc's hate at the time, it would be difficult to be sure of anything from those logs.

If anyone pulled aggro off of me, I would still have to wonder if they weren't also overcoming the hate from a Taunt, or if they had some proc or skill of their own I didn't catch, or if they walked in or out of melee range, etc. etc.

For now, I just assume Anarchy is 788 because I've parsed Ykesha to be about 575 and they're both 0.0 second stuns + DD.

Ykesha = 575 Hate - 75 DD = 500 hate for 0.0 sec. stun

500 + 288 DD = 788 Anarchy hate.

I've also heard some talk of SOD proccing at a higher rate than the standard twice per minute, which is something I haven't considered yet but I should.

Trident was another one I don't have yet. Really no idea on that one because it's a unique slow, so that's a guess. Would love to parse that some time when I find someone with a Trident who's bored enough.

[Troxx]

Originally Posted by Goodest [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

By saying he is wrong, it's your opinion. Yet he States facts he will be adding more data to it very soon epics he has SOD logs but the parse/logs are still being sorted.

That I have seen red sword is above all else. In all trails that we have tried.

I'm not trying to be confrontational when I say this but let me be clear: he is not stating 'facts'. Melee threat is fairly easy to calculate so the discrepancy is with the procs. Some of the 'facts' seem to be simply ripped from the wiki.

Ykesha on his spreadsheet is the most blatant, which he quotes at 775 hate. Why 775? Because this page is being used as 'fact':

https://wiki.project1999.com/Ykesha

Originally Posted by Cerate

For now, I just assume Anarchy is 788 because I've parsed Ykesha to be about 575 and they're both 0.0 second stuns + DD.

Ykesha = 575 Hate - 75 DD = 500 hate for 0.0 sec. stun

500 + 288 DD = 788 Anarchy hate.

That has been my experience too. Ykesha as a stun/dd is medium strength for aggro, not the 2nd strongest proc in the game. If the 'facts' in the spreadsheet were true ... SSoYs despite being several expansions old and having a terrible ratio would still be amongst the strongest aggro weapons in the game. They are not.

Another wtf moment can be had comparing the quoted number for ykesha compared to another stun/dd proc listed in the 2h section.

https://wiki.project1999.com/Judgment_of_Ice

This is proc per the wiki is 1sec stun with a 125DD yet it is quoted at 525 hate whereas ykesha, a 0.0 second stun 75dd is supposed to be 775 hate? Why 775 hate? Because the wiki says so ...

Another is comparing trident of the deep seas; a slow proc. Why is it 750 aggro and willsapper is only 400? Because of the tiny 20/tick dot? The majority of the threat comes from the slow which has been conservatively estimated historically to be 450-500ish hate. Proc for proc most slow weapons are in the ballpark threat range of Frostbringer's proc.

The proc values on the spreadsheet don't make sense. They aren't facts. Prior to the last patch (i'm not as confident after the patch) one poison counter has generally been held to be worth somewhere around 300 hate. This puts infestation at 900 threat per proc plus some nominal extra from the dd and DOT. This anecdotal 'fact' held water as poison counter procs have been noticed time and time again to be noticably stronger than a straight stun. This observational 'fact' also explains why WESS (terrible ratio) does so exceptionally well at ripping aggro and effectively locking your target on you after its first proc. With 4 poison counters, blind, and a debuff it has a proc that on paper is as second-to-none as anecdotal experience reflects it should be. The poison/disease counters on the now out-dated VP weapons is what keeps them so incredibly competitive and superior to the raid level Velious weapons that don't have an innate aggro proc.

As for SoD ... well that weapon dominates because it pairs a strong proc with an insanely good ratio. The ratio is just that good.

None of this is facts. We don't have the raw data on any proc or cast spell; we can simply make educated estimates. The spreadsheet has huge potential but at the moment it is really inaccurate. Many weapons have proc threat values way over-estimated and a lot of the powerhouse aggro weapons have their proc threats under-estimated.

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[Solist]

The procs are all 400 (if they were previously over 400), plus the damage component. So everything you're dribbling is wrong. Everything you think you know since last patch, is just wrong. Some examples:

SoD is now 688. Flat, simple. It's now by far the best aggro proc in the game for a warrior. It used to be pretty meh at 800ish.

Feverblade used to be 1800+ hate per proc, now it's 510.
WESS used to be 2300 hate per proc. Now it's 400.

Red epic used to be comparatively shit at 600 hate/proc, but everything else came down so it's good, really good now.

Willsapper used to be tragically shithouse, now it's comparitively tip top.

Howling cutlass used to be pretty meh and now it's quite baller.

And again a lot of the orders of whats good will change next patch again with 2h damage bonus changes. Reality is the 2h warrior epic, and the dain 2h Frostreaver will be the things to use in all but when you need highest hp/ac (red epic and whitestone or red epic and jaleans). Will be nice to simplify it all.

Ignoring procs entirely is also stupid and retarded. It's simple math and simple spreadsheets to compare weapons, as all proc rates are normalised, damage models easy to calculate, and proc values all known exactly for hate. So you can pretty easily average out proc hate per second and melee hate per second at varying levels to get accurate listings. Whatever you're writing in that jibberish sheet you linked is pretty wrong however.

[DMN]

How are you guys getting these numbers?

[Troxx]

I need to spend more time on my warrior following the patch (mostly have been playing alts when not at a raid).

It is still not clear whether or not procs with multiple effects/counters factor each in separately of if it's a 'per proc' lock in. If it were 400 flat then the 'spell cast' for the sum total should cap at 400 meaning the extra DD is meaningless in a stun/dd combo - but that doesn't seem to be the case. If stun + DD are counted separately and stack additively then the aggro generating components of the poison/disease counter may likewise still stack additively. For something like WESS that has 3 separate components (one component having 4 potentially separate counters); is each component capped at 400 or is it 400 sum total? So yeah, if the direct damage is to be factored in separately as an additional perk; then weapons that have multiple components to the cast should follow the same rule.

Anecdotes being like assholes (we all have them and they all smell like shit); this is all conjecture. Having said that, following the patch I have not noticed a massive drop-off on my threat generation compared to prior to the patch. If it's ALL capped strictly at 400 I should have seen a fairly big drop.

Point is we do not absolutely know other than that the most recent patch shook everything up in a big way.

Ironically the last patch was supposed to only target people casting spells (ie mallet clicks) their class cannot cast. Whether it was intended to affect procs ... maybe or maybe not. The real collateral damage is that for people actually casting spells from their spellbook ... they got hit too. Playing my paladin the drop off in aggro per cast of spells from my spellbook (not intended to be affected) was REALLY noticable. It now takes 2-3x casts of blind to equal relative threat blind used to generate. Stun is similarly affected.

For warriors this is a potential perk as it also means slows/tashes/etc that used to generate tons of competing threat are now likely capped at the same 400 threat per cast.

[Cerate]

Troxx, you're right. I did something completely stupid, the numbers aren't even what I parsed. I can't even figure out what or how I copied. Thanks for your attention.