Revised Newbie Guide

[Barkingturtle]

All this debate over whether bards can or cannot tank is really moot in the context of a newbie guide.

I mean, newbs should not be playing bards, anyway.

[Wrench]

Originally Posted by Estu [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'd really like to see some parses of this purported gigantic difference in mitigation and avoidance, especially comparing bards to rangers and monks, but also to knights and warriors.

then do the research and THEN start writing guides

dont just spew crap out because you think it 'makes sense' to you

hey! clerics wear plate and get stuns for great aggro generation, you should put them in ahead of monks and rangers too

[Estu]

Originally Posted by Wrench [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

then do the research and THEN start writing guides

dont just spew crap out because you think it 'makes sense' to you

hey! clerics wear plate and get stuns for great aggro generation, you should put them in ahead of monks and rangers too

I'm not pulling it out of nowhere. I know bards who have tanked difficult group content effectively, like the guy posting earlier about taking HS. This guide is extremely broad - it covers a lot of different things. Some of them I have more personal experience with than others, but that doesn't mean that a guide for newbies shouldn't cover these things. And the reason I made this thread was to get input from people about areas where my knowledge might be limited. So I really don't see the need for all your vitriol. Maybe take it to R&F.

[Estu]

Originally Posted by Barkingturtle [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

All this debate over whether bards can or cannot tank is really moot in the context of a newbie guide.

I mean, newbs should not be playing bards, anyway.

Well, I dunno. Certainly I wouldn't recommend a bard for every newbie, but for someone who likes hardcore gaming who isn't afraid to try something new and intense, a bard could be a good choice. I made sure to stress in the guide that bards are difficult to play, but I didn't want to leave them out of the discussion altogether by pretending they don't exist.

[DrKvothe]

Originally Posted by Estu [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

but for someone who likes hardcore gaming who isn't afraid to try something new and intense, a bard could be a good choice

IMO, just learning what you're doing from 1-20 is hardcore gaming. I mean, I got killed 3 times before lvl 2 on my shaman (damn vengeful soloists, and kos yellow cons!). I think it's fair to say that if you're new and you want to be a tank, you will probably regret it. If you're new, you want to be a tank, and you choose to create a bard, you will CERTAINLY regret it.

There are some other debatable parts of the guide:
"I want to be able to get groups and level quickly
Enchanter > Cleric > Warrior/Shadowknight/Paladin > Rogue > Monk > Shaman > Bard"

I've had no problems finding groups as a shaman, and we're always happy to have a bard along. Most bards are out soloing OT or DL, so finding one to group with is always nice. The chance you'll be sitting around in a dungeon waiting for a group is more about how necessary you are AND how many of your class are competing for group spots. Rogues are relatively easy to twink and require groups pretty early, so I'd argue it's easier to get into a group as a shaman or bard than as a rogue. Enchanters are extremely useful, but there are quite a few of them as well. Do magicians and necros really have such a hard time finding groups? I never mind having them along.

[Lojik]

I'd say it's a pretty good guide for newbies. What I have issue with is the glowing recommendation of Iksars as tanks with only a mention in passing to the fact that they can't wear plate until velious comes out. For a noob i think this is a pretty big deal as A) who knows when velious will actually come out and B) if velious does come out, it may be a while until you can actually get that thurg/SS/Kael quested plate armor on your iksar, and until then they'll have to wear ranger armor.

Also, does frontal stun immunity not work vs. level 52+ mobs? I do not know from experience so I can't say. I would think Ogre warrior is still the ideal tank in velious, as is it really that easy to max stamina as a non ogre/troll tank?

[Lojik]

Originally Posted by DrKvothe [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

IMO, just learning what you're doing from 1-20 is hardcore gaming. I mean, I got killed 3 times before lvl 2 on my shaman (damn vengeful soloists, and kos yellow cons!). I think it's fair to say that if you're new and you want to be a tank, you will probably regret it. If you're new, you want to be a tank, and you choose to create a bard, you will CERTAINLY regret it.

There are some other debatable parts of the guide:
"I want to be able to get groups and level quickly
Enchanter > Cleric > Warrior/Shadowknight/Paladin > Rogue > Monk > Shaman > Bard"

I've had no problems finding groups as a shaman, and we're always happy to have a bard along. Most bards are out soloing OT or DL, so finding one to group with is always nice. The chance you'll be sitting around in a dungeon waiting for a group is more about how necessary you are AND how many of your class are competing for group spots. Rogues are relatively easy to twink and require groups pretty early, so I'd argue it's easier to get into a group as a shaman or bard than as a rogue. Enchanters are extremely useful, but there are quite a few of them as well. Do magicians and necros really have such a hard time finding groups? I never mind having them along.

I think I agree with Estu on this one for the most part. Shaman is great but A) there are so damn many of them on the server and B) two shaman in one group is kind of useless. However duos are probably the best exp groups on the server and shaman is the king of duo groups so maybe you're right, but if we're talking strictly the standard 6 man group I think that order is not bad.

[Estu]

Originally Posted by DrKvothe [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

IMO, just learning what you're doing from 1-20 is hardcore gaming. I mean, I got killed 3 times before lvl 2 on my shaman (damn vengeful soloists, and kos yellow cons!). I think it's fair to say that if you're new and you want to be a tank, you will probably regret it. If you're new, you want to be a tank, and you choose to create a bard, you will CERTAINLY regret it.

There are some other debatable parts of the guide:
"I want to be able to get groups and level quickly
Enchanter > Cleric > Warrior/Shadowknight/Paladin > Rogue > Monk > Shaman > Bard"

I've had no problems finding groups as a shaman, and we're always happy to have a bard along. Most bards are out soloing OT or DL, so finding one to group with is always nice. The chance you'll be sitting around in a dungeon waiting for a group is more about how necessary you are AND how many of your class are competing for group spots. Rogues are relatively easy to twink and require groups pretty early, so I'd argue it's easier to get into a group as a shaman or bard than as a rogue. Enchanters are extremely useful, but there are quite a few of them as well. Do magicians and necros really have such a hard time finding groups? I never mind having them along.

The guide's not saying that shamans and bards have a hard time finding groups; it's saying that they're good to get groups with, but not as good as the other listed classes. Of course, it's debatable what the exact ranking should be, but the reasoning I used was that 1) enchanters are incredibly useful and don't have several other classes filling their role's slot (just bard, arguably), 2) clerics for the same reason, 3) tanks for obvious reasons, 4) rogues and monks because melee DPS is king in groups and more than one melee DPS is always good, and then shamans and bards because they are both super-useful but not necessarily in as high demand as the others: shamans don't get that good until around level 25 or later, and you wouldn't really want two shamans in a group, while bards are super-useful but carry a large EXP penalty.

Originally Posted by Lojik [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'd say it's a pretty good guide for newbies. What I have issue with is the glowing recommendation of Iksars as tanks with only a mention in passing to the fact that they can't wear plate until velious comes out. For a noob i think this is a pretty big deal as A) who knows when velious will actually come out and B) if velious does come out, it may be a while until you can actually get that thurg/SS/Kael quested plate armor on your iksar, and until then they'll have to wear ranger armor.

Also, does frontal stun immunity not work vs. level 52+ mobs? I do not know from experience so I can't say. I would think Ogre warrior is still the ideal tank in velious, as is it really that easy to max stamina as a non ogre/troll tank?

Yeah, the stuff you mentioned wasn't written by me. I wouldn't necessarily recommend an Iksar as the first choice for a tank. Don't know about the frontal stun thing either.

Originally Posted by Lojik [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I think I agree with Estu on this one for the most part. Shaman is great but A) there are so damn many of them on the server and B) two shaman in one group is kind of useless. However duos are probably the best exp groups on the server and shaman is the king of duo groups so maybe you're right, but if we're talking strictly the standard 6 man group I think that order is not bad.

The focus in this guide is almost entirely on standard groups since I feel like they're somewhat more accessible to newbies (easier to find, easier to get help with, you're not being relied on as much, etc.). It's also pretty much the quintessential EverQuest experience (in my opinion, anyhow).