Game Mechanics: Pulling while Invisible

[bamzal]

fact is invis pulling trivializes the game a lot. I'm not even playing everquest anymore.

[Xadion]

Originally Posted by Nirgon [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I can't find the patch note that says mobs will treat dispels as a hostile action either but I can find a bunch of everlore posts clearly stating the approximate time of the patch and that reinforce my statement.

I'm on the prowl too!

to be honest I was a kid in 99 and read patch notes with a SK filter in my mind... But what I remember of the despell change was a simple statement that it will now cause agro if successful.

as for the invs pulling... Sorry its 'leet hax' but it is a valid tactic and much like fd pulling... Not what they had in mind, but it became part of a classes skillset... The prenerf CoS is really what makes invs pulling worth a darn and imo if they wanted it gone, they would have retroactively nerfed the CoS not just replace it.

the nerf that kills invs killing has something along the lines of how mobs transfer their hatelist to other npc's...and again I am thinking its luclin or beyond as I pulled many a think in luclin cos style.

as it stood before the change mobs broadcasted the player target as it ran, the mobs that then 'hear' it make their own call check on 'agro/faction' after the change the mob passes its con to the mobs it passes if they are on the same faction. The drag corpse thing did not over do invs mods but simply made it so a ranger could not wonder into PoG and cr an entire raid.

[Nirgon]

Finding instances where an invis pull did work based on faction does not mean every single npc in the game should be invis pullable.

Some NPCs in live were single pullable as a body pull.

Others, like the mobs at the entrance area up to the bridges in seb should be single pullable by someone who is lvl 57 (I think) or higher. Invis has nothing to do with that.

Some mobs hang out around others that aren't part of their bring a friend list, and invis pulling may have worked for those. However, pulling single mobs in every dungeon or the ghoul lord to the evil eye spawn? No way heh. I, like others during the classic era have had an invis drop and rooted a mob, invis'd and ran. The mob would still train if it unrooted.

There's problems here that did not exist in Live and are problems based on the source code they were handed. Asking for patch notes on some things it just impossible because they were never broken.

The dispel patch note would cause mobs to aggro if you tried to dispel them at all. I looked high and low for this patch note and only found a reference to a player in 1999 stating "hey this doesn't work any more after this recent set of patch notes". So, there's a gap in the patch notes in the archives we've found so far.

[Nirgon]

http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/bard_pulling.php

Nothing mentioned by Thott (who I'd say is a true EQ guru) regarding anything about invis pulling. He would certainly have known of it or mentioned it..?

[Daliant17447]

Wheres the thread about bards being able to cruise around VP at sow speed with rogue hide? Or are Nirgon/Treats not on to that one yet?

Good luck finding the patch notes about when this cool bard/ranger/halfling feature was added.
CLASSIC UNTIL PROVEN OTHERWISE [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[Dullah]

Don't know if we'll ever find evidence one way or the other, but I don't remember it working like this on live. If you casted invis, it would only prevent you from agroing more mobs, not from preventing the agro'd mob from socialing. They didn't need to see you to assist.

[Daliant17447]

When an un-engaged mob encountered an engaged mob, the un-engaged mob would do 2 checks.

First, the un-engaged mob would check the engaged mob's faction, if the un-engaged mob was on the same faction or "buddies" with the engaged mob, it would social agro (regardless of whether or not it could see the engaged mob's target).

*If* the un-engaged mob wasn't on the same faction of the engaged mob, it would do a second faction check but this time on the engaged mob's target. If the engaged mob's target was KoS (scowling or threatening), the un-engaged mob would social agro. If the engaged mob's target was non-KoS (from invis or otherwise) the un-engaged mob would not social agro.

This means, using invis to pull mobs through other mobs without agroing them was possible, but only in situations where the mobs were on seperate factions. Mobs on the same faction would always assist each other even if a player was invis and the mobs couldn't see invis.

If you were "ally" in a city and you rooted a guard, your faction or "consider value" with that guard would change to "threateningly". Now if you ran through the city all the other guards would still consider you "ally". However, when your root wore off and the guard ran through the city, every guard he passed would social agro and also switch to "threateningly". In this example being invis wouldn't have changed the fact the guards will assist the other guard based on being "aligned" with that guard. This type of social agro is based off the mob, not the player, therefore being invis or not invis makes no difference.

An example where mobs would not social agro: A shadowknight snares the evil eye, then clicks circlet of shadows. He runs to a safe spot in the zone passing many frogs along the way but none of them see invis. As the evil eye passes each frog, the frog does the faction checks: 1) the frog is not on the same faction as the evil eye = no social agro = move to check two. 2) The target of the eye (The SK) is indifferent (due to invis) = no social agro.

Lets say the SK's invis wears off, now when the evil eye passes a frog, the frog does the faction checks: 1) the frog is not on the same faction as the evil eye = no social agro = move to check two. 2) The target of the evil eye (The SK) is now scowling (due to invis fading) = social agro.


Does this sound right to you guys? Cuz thats how I remember it. Being able to single pull a mob out of a group of mobs by having someone land an invis on you while you cast a spell is definitely not classic. Generally speaking when there is a group of mobs, they are all on the same faction and thus will social agro with each other. I'm about 95% sure this is how social agro worked, and yes I realize that means absolutely dick without evidence to support it.

[Daliant17447]

Oh, and since I don't really play here any more I guess I'll elaborate about the previous bug I mentioned. Sorry to anyone who is currently enjoying this bug. [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Currently, any class or race that can both hide and sneak (bards, rangers, halflings) can move around while retaining the effects of hide.

To do this you simply:
1) Invis yourself
2) Hide successfully
3) Sneak successfully

When you move, you will recieve the "you have moved and are no longer hidden" message but the effects of hide will remain until either your invis wears off or you break sneak. Because you are already invisible, you can't test your hide on yourself. The only way to tell if your hide was successful is to con a mob that would normally see through invis.

Working as intended? I for one don't recall bards being able to stack selo's song of travel with rogue stealth but unfortunately I can't find any patch notes to support this wild claim! [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[CrystalBlue]

This is another case where "the jig is up". Everyone knows about the bugs (errr "features") in this thread and its turned some of the gameplay into a bit of a joke.

When the "jig was up" in classic, and everyone and their mother started doing it, it was fixed.

Time to fix.


And lol @ "super bard" in the video above, funny stuff.

p.s. Halflings now the master race for sure. XP bonus and have the rogues ability to sneak/hide everywhere and anywhere. WTB race change for all my characters to Halfling, they need rogue sneak/hide mobility goodness.

[Xadion]

Originally Posted by Daliant17447 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

When an un-engaged mob encountered an engaged mob, the un-engaged mob would do 2 checks.

First, the un-engaged mob would check the engaged mob's faction, if the un-engaged mob was on the same faction or "buddies" with the engaged mob, it would social agro (regardless of whether or not it could see the engaged mob's target).

*If* the un-engaged mob wasn't on the same faction of the engaged mob, it would do a second faction check but this time on the engaged mob's target. If the engaged mob's target was KoS (scowling or threatening), the un-engaged mob would social agro. If the engaged mob's target was non-KoS (from invis or otherwise) the un-engaged mob would not social agro.

This means, using invis to pull mobs through other mobs without agroing them was possible, but only in situations where the mobs were on seperate factions. Mobs on the same faction would always assist each other even if a player was invis and the mobs couldn't see invis.

If you were "ally" in a city and you rooted a guard, your faction or "consider value" with that guard would change to "threateningly". Now if you ran through the city all the other guards would still consider you "ally". However, when your root wore off and the guard ran through the city, every guard he passed would social agro and also switch to "threateningly". In this example being invis wouldn't have changed the fact the guards will assist the other guard based on being "aligned" with that guard. This type of social agro is based off the mob, not the player, therefore being invis or not invis makes no difference.

An example where mobs would not social agro: A shadowknight snares the evil eye, then clicks circlet of shadows. He runs to a safe spot in the zone passing many frogs along the way but none of them see invis. As the evil eye passes each frog, the frog does the faction checks: 1) the frog is not on the same faction as the evil eye = no social agro = move to check two. 2) The target of the eye (The SK) is indifferent (due to invis) = no social agro.

Lets say the SK's invis wears off, now when the evil eye passes a frog, the frog does the faction checks: 1) the frog is not on the same faction as the evil eye = no social agro = move to check two. 2) The target of the evil eye (The SK) is now scowling (due to invis fading) = social agro.


Does this sound right to you guys? Cuz thats how I remember it. Being able to single pull a mob out of a group of mobs by having someone land an invis on you while you cast a spell is definitely not classic. Generally speaking when there is a group of mobs, they are all on the same faction and thus will social agro with each other. I'm about 95% sure this is how social agro worked, and yes I realize that means absolutely dick without evidence to support it.

I heart dalliant but this is not how it always was. There was a patch that effectively added the 2nd (or first on your explanation) check, I have not had time to look for it in depth but I may once I get back to work.