Game Mechanics: Faction hits and sorting.

[Rygar]

I only noticed a handful of screenshots that you posted, were there more elsewhere? I don't think that is a relevant sample size to base the fix off of.

I'll continue to look into this, but there are just too many cases of values not being in the 'absolute value' order.
http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/npc.html?id=6472
http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/npc.html?id=6092
http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/npc.html?id=5866
http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/npc.html?id=8539
http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/npc.html?id=5398
http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/npc.html?id=28381
http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/npc.html?id=6681
http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/npc.html?id=32799
http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/npc.html?id=5384
http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/npc.html?id=5390

These prove the 'sub-sort alphabetically if a tie occurs' is not correct either:
http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/npc.html?id=5385
http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/npc.html?id=5383


I am doubtful on Velious being a special case, but I will try and confirm that later by looking through Kunark / Classic content. Granted I'll be using the 'live values' shown on ZAM as a guide, but if any exceptions to the rules are verified by classic screenshots, that should show that absolute value sorting is not reliable.

I'm feeling a bit more confident in sorting by 'Faction ID', but I wasn't verifying that above with each link.

Part of me wonders if there was more beyond listing 'primary faction first', they certainly seem to list factions they are allied with 2nd most often (such as Coldain being primary, then Dain showing 2nd hit. Same if Kromrif is primary, Kromzek would often be next). Maybe it lists all factions the mobs will assist then other factions? Not sure if mobs assisting multiple factions is classic or not.

Will continue to look into this, I welcome any feedback or noted exceptions that break any proposed theory.

[Rygar]

Found some old world hits that come in funky ways...

Investigator Badge has some funky hits in no discernible sort order:
http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/q...tml?quest=1271

[Tue Nov 10 09:32:12 2015] an investigator says 'You have done our city a great service and helped to bring several criminals to justice this day! Wear this Investigator's Badge with pride! Speak again with Vegalys Keldrane, he may have information about [advancing further] in rank.'
[Tue Nov 10 09:32:12 2015] Your faction standing with Antonius Bayle has been adjusted by 5.
[Tue Nov 10 09:32:12 2015] Your faction standing with Guards of Qeynos has been adjusted by 5.
[Tue Nov 10 09:32:12 2015] Your faction standing with Ring of Scale has been adjusted by -2.
[Tue Nov 10 09:32:12 2015] Your faction standing with Kane Bayle has been adjusted by -5.
[Tue Nov 10 09:32:12 2015] Your faction standing with Merchants of Qeynos has been adjusted by 5.
[Tue Nov 10 09:32:13 2015] You gain party experience!!

http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/q...tml?quest=1279

[Fri Dec 29 13:35:44 2017] Velarte Selire says, 'You did it! You have proven you have the intelligence required and you may wear this Researcher's Badge with pride! Thank you for returning the jars.'
[Fri Dec 29 13:35:44 2017] Your faction standing with Priests of Life has been adjusted by 5.
[Fri Dec 29 13:35:44 2017] Your faction standing with Knights of Thunder has been adjusted by 1.
[Fri Dec 29 13:35:44 2017] Your faction standing with Guards of Qeynos has been adjusted by 2.
[Fri Dec 29 13:35:44 2017] Your faction standing with Bloodsabers has been adjusted by -1.
[Fri Dec 29 13:35:44 2017] Your faction standing with Antonius Bayle has been adjusted by 1.
[Fri Dec 29 13:35:44 2017] You gain experience (with a bonus)!

http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/q...tml?quest=1288

[Fri Dec 29 14:00:48 2017] Your faction standing with Antonius Bayle has been adjusted by 5.
[Fri Dec 29 14:00:48 2017] Your faction standing with Guards of Qeynos has been adjusted by 5.
[Fri Dec 29 14:00:48 2017] Your faction standing with Ring of Scale has been adjusted by -2.
[Fri Dec 29 14:00:48 2017] Your faction standing with Kane Bayle has been adjusted by -5.
[Fri Dec 29 14:00:48 2017] Your faction standing with Merchants of Qeynos has been adjusted by 5.

Rabid Grizzlies quest as well:
http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/quest.html?quest=557

[Wed Feb 25 20:19:46 2015] Your faction standing with Priests of Life has been adjusted by 20.
[Wed Feb 25 20:19:46 2015] Your faction standing with Knights of Thunder has been adjusted by 6.
[Wed Feb 25 20:19:46 2015] Your faction standing with Guards of Qeynos has been adjusted by 10.
[Wed Feb 25 20:19:46 2015] Your faction standing with Bloodsabers has been adjusted by -5.
[Wed Feb 25 20:19:46 2015] Your faction standing with Antonius Bayle has been adjusted by 3.
[Wed Feb 25 20:19:46 2015] You gain experience!!

Soulfire quest is all over as well:
http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/quest.html?quest=362

Wed Oct 05 13:14:37 2016] Your faction standing with Mayong Mistmoore has been adjusted by -300.
[Wed Oct 05 13:14:37 2016] Your faction standing with King Tearis Thex has been adjusted by 75.
[Wed Oct 05 13:14:37 2016] Your faction standing with Agents of Mistmoore has been adjusted by -300.
[Wed Oct 05 13:14:37 2016] Your faction standing with League of Antonican Bards has been adjusted by 75.
[Wed Oct 05 13:14:37 2016] Your faction standing with Ring of Scale has been adjusted by 15.

Give sealed note to Brother Hayle
[Fri Apr 01 10:56:29 2016] Your faction standing with Priests of Life has been adjusted by 10.
[Fri Apr 01 10:56:29 2016] Your faction standing with Knights of Thunder has been adjusted by 3.
[Fri Apr 01 10:56:29 2016] Your faction standing with Guards of Qeynos has been adjusted by 5.
[Fri Apr 01 10:56:29 2016] Your faction standing with Bloodsabers has been adjusted by -2.
[Fri Apr 01 10:56:29 2016] Your faction standing with Antonius Bayle has been adjusted by 1.

Give Testimony of Truth to Valeron Dushire
[Fri Apr 01 19:03:32 2016] Your faction standing with Knights of Truth has been adjusted by 100.
[Fri Apr 01 19:03:32 2016] Your faction standing with Dismal Rage has been adjusted by -15.
[Fri Apr 01 19:03:32 2016] Your faction standing with The Freeport Militia has been adjusted by -15.
[Fri Apr 01 19:03:32 2016] Your faction standing with Priests of Marr has been adjusted by 20.
[Fri Apr 01 19:03:32 2016] Your faction standing with Steel Warriors has been adjusted by 10.

Some random kills from old world, in case quests were different:
http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/npc.html?id=2983

[Sat Mar 07 15:03:11 2015] Your faction standing with Guards of Qeynos has been adjusted by -150.
[Sat Mar 07 15:03:11 2015] Your faction standing with Antonius Bayle has been adjusted by -22.
[Sat Mar 07 15:03:11 2015] Your faction standing with Corrupt Qeynos Guards has been adjusted by 22.
[Sat Mar 07 15:03:11 2015] Your faction standing with Circle Of Unseen Hands has been adjusted by 37.
[Sat Mar 07 15:03:11 2015] Your faction standing with Merchants of Qeynos has been adjusted by -15.
[Sat Mar 07 15:03:11 2015] Guard Philbin's corpse says 'My comrades will avenge my death.'

http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/npc.html?id=2757

[Sun May 15 09:55:55 2016] Halleb hit Guard Wenbie for 89 points of non-melee damage.
[Sun May 15 09:55:55 2016] Your faction standing with Guards of Qeynos has been adjusted by -60.
[Sun May 15 09:55:55 2016] Your faction standing with Antonius Bayle has been adjusted by -9.
[Sun May 15 09:55:55 2016] Your faction standing with Corrupt Qeynos Guards has been adjusted by 9.
[Sun May 15 09:55:55 2016] Your faction standing with Circle Of Unseen Hands has been adjusted by 15.
[Sun May 15 09:55:55 2016] Your faction standing with Merchants of Qeynos has been adjusted by -6.

This one is Mooto, interesting that no Bixie faction given, didn't Aalderon famously farm this guy for months to become max ally with Bixies? should that be possible?
http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/npc.html?id=2107

[Sun Mar 12 13:52:18 2017] Your faction standing with Clan Runnyeye has been adjusted by -50.
[Sun Mar 12 13:52:18 2017] Your faction standing with Storm Reapers has been adjusted by 2.
[Sun Mar 12 13:52:18 2017] Your faction standing with Guardians of the Vale has been adjusted by 5.
[Sun Mar 12 13:52:18 2017] Your faction standing with Storm Guard has been adjusted by 2.
[Sun Mar 12 13:52:18 2017] Your faction standing with King Xorbb has been adjusted by 5.

Don't get me wrong, there are indeed cases where sorting by faction size are happening, but it is by no means universal, so I'm just posting things that show otherwise. So I don't think the absolute value sort order should be implemented, it would only serve to give hints about faction values.

I'll try and map out the order everything appears and see if there is any kind of connection. Will probably take a long time.

[Rygar]

Have been having some relevant success on establishing some kind of chronological order in the database. However, there are a handful of exceptions that cropped up which tell me that isn't the sole method, perhaps factions were stored in different tables that could be joined or queried in different orders and affect the sort.

Thus far it seems like the Primary Faction (first faction hit shown) determines the sort order. For instance, I may see CircleofUnseenHands hit above AntoniousBayle for one primary faction, but on a different primary faction the display order is reversed. Have seen a wide range of values on those faction hits and feel it is reasonable to conclude the value of the hit has nothing to do with the sort order.

I'm trying to see if the text value of the faction can convert to a number and find some correlation, but I'm starting to go a bit too Beautiful Mind on this.

If I had some insight into how the faction tables and faction hits are setup then maybe I can make more sense of it.

For now, I'm just going to try and log the display order for each primary faction in Classic-Velious. If a dev wants to throw some 'fill in the blanks' code for how you want each primary faction to display I can post that when complete, and hopefully can alleviate some burden on implementing (a lot of faction to dig through, probably a 2-3 month project when all is said and done).

[Caiu]

Feel like this is a client limitation? Don't get the sense that devs would leave it untouched without a serious roadblock.

[maximum]

Originally Posted by Rygar [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

So I don't think the absolute value sort order should be implemented, it would only serve to give hints about faction values.

I would argue that giving hints about faction values is Totally Classic. I understand there are concerns about feeding Faction Lords/farmers, but this change should be made if it serves The Mission.

I can dig up more screenshots from 2001-2 if it is required, but I don't see a reason for an orgy of evidence.

[Rygar]

Originally Posted by maximum [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I would argue that giving hints about faction values is Totally Classic. I understand there are concerns about feeding Faction Lords/farmers, but this change should be made if it serves The Mission.

I can dig up more screenshots from 2001-2 if it is required, but I don't see a reason for an orgy of evidence.

Please help me understand why you want your proposed sort method implemented. I guess I don't understand why it should be if tons of evidence is found that shows it to be unreliable? To be clear, I agree that some quests / kills show the values in your proposed sort order, but you can't really ignore the cases that don't fit that, else it is just cherry picking the data.

If you found the same primary faction hit sorted in different orders I would begin to consider it again, but every single quest I've located has the order the same regardless of values. So same faction hits, but some may be sorted as 5, -1, 2, 1, 2 and a different quest is sorted the same but shows hits as 10, 3, 1, 1, 1.

I am indeed trying to keep it classic, if your method proved true then I would say go on and feed the Faction Lords/farmers.

[isidian]

I've spent a bit of time looking into this also.

If the numerical sort hypothesis true, then Primordial Malice would always appear first, not last, as it always does.

Also, you give the example of a MayongMistmoore hit, but prior to Kunark, the AgentsofMistmoore hit was replaced with QueenCristanosThex -- in the exact same position, with everything else unchanged. Proof:
http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2lsuf9&s=6#.WrBMPujwY2z
http://www.silverblades-suitcase.com/eq/mm_aoe.jpg

The hits clearly don't come in alphabetical order either, so it makes sense that one might argue for a "hidden ID#" hypothesis. But then this would be defeated by the reverse orders of StormGuard and EmeraldWarriors in the CrushboneOrc table versus the InhabitantsOfFirionaVie table. Another counterexample would be the reverse order of the Corrupt/Regular Qeynos guards in the SteelWarriors table versus the CircleOfUnseenHands table.

It seems much more likely that these tables are just individualized according to a list that belongs to the parent faction, and that the lists were populated by the developers manually. Almost all factions list as their second entry the faction most strongly aligned or most diametrically opposed: e.g. KaranaBandits lists KaranaResidents second, KazonStormhammer lists StormGuard second, CorruptQeynosGuards lists GuardsOfQeynos second, etc.

I would, however, be interested in any evidence that can support a different theory that has not been debunked by the above evidence.

[Rygar]

Originally Posted by isidian [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

It seems much more likely that these tables are just individualized according to a list that belongs to the parent faction, and that the lists were populated by the developers manually. Almost all factions list as their second entry the faction most strongly aligned or most diametrically opposed: e.g. KaranaBandits lists KaranaResidents second, KazonStormhammer lists StormGuard second, CorruptQeynosGuards lists GuardsOfQeynos second, etc.

I'm definitely leaning towards this direction, notice a lot of allies / enemies in the same position, but there are plenty of examples where this is not a hard rule. I wonder if this was just a guideline to follow but mistakes were made when creating the faction tables.