Cheating everywhere, GMs???

[Reiwa]

terrible. just terrible.

[Jibartik]

With deep regret we cannot get mad at the p99 race judges.

[Drakborn]

All of you need Jesus.

I only skipped through the video so I’m not going to comment on that, but I think most of you are forgetting the real advantage the supposed scripting affords. Being on a race line for several hours, ready to go in a split second is difficult. Scripted starts make it so that the guy on the line can half ass pay attention. If mob pops, the script starts, and the cheater can pause Netflix and take over within a couple seconds. This is an insane advantage over the guy with his hands on the keyboard/mouse staring intently at a wall for 4+ hours. There’s no doubt that a scripted start helps on roll starts, but race skill is more important in that scenario.

[ArbiterBlixen]

Originally Posted by Drakborn [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

All of you need Jesus.

I only skipped through the video so I’m not going to comment on that, but I think most of you are forgetting the real advantage the supposed scripting affords. Being on a race line for several hours, ready to go in a split second is difficult. Scripted starts make it so that the guy on the line can half ass pay attention. If mob pops, the script starts, and the cheater can pause Netflix and take over within a couple seconds. This is an insane advantage over the guy with his hands on the keyboard/mouse staring intently at a wall for 4+ hours. There’s no doubt that a scripted start helps on roll starts, but race skill is more important in that scenario.

There is 3 mins from spawn till rolls start.

[titanshub]

Originally Posted by karadin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

But if Stunningly is clearly 150ms+ behind the control (Kickenit, who is definitely scripting) by that last frame, how do we accommodate for that? Ignoring that seems to run counter to the logic the OP uses on other racers (not just Givincer). IMO, the fact that Kickenit is so far ahead in that last frame when no other input is needed is really damning to OP's case.

The racers with the lowest latency has the biggest advantage. If I had to guess other factors are at play here as well such as read write speeds on the I/O. The game is writing that 900+ random to a log file that then needs to be read by the 3rd party software so delays here might be significant or not. None of that negates the use of cheat software. The claim being made by the OP that they are cheating and I'm pointing out that extra sources of lag on his computer alone does not exonerate them from that accusation. The other racers all fell within that statistical distribution dataset from humanbenchmark.com.

The argument presented here is looking at statistical distributions of the reaction times of racers (not just the accused). The OP has controlled for the major and obvious sources of latency and mechanical lag to the user as best as he can. When we do this over multiple races we can see a pattern of inhuman reaction times emerging.

If this was about 1 time then it would be an anomaly. It's the fact that it repeatedly happens time and time again is the accusation. Statistically he should fall further back in that distribution across multiple races. It's always possible that the OP cherrypicked the data which is why a more formalized accusation would be nice to see.

However, even if the OP cherrypicked the data then we are meant to believe that multiple people who have world class Olympian level reaction times all play classic everquest, are very unusually much older than normal for people with these sorts of reaction times, and all play in vanquish. (I assume nobody in riot has been caught doing this but if they are caught everyone should be banned).

I'm skeptical af about that being true. However, I'm not an expert in these things and this is just my understanding of what was presented.

[Drakborn]

Originally Posted by ArbiterBlixen [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

There is 3 mins from spawn till rolls start.

This helped my son, it can help you too!

https://www.hookedonphonics.com/

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by titanshub [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The racers with the lowest latency has the biggest advantage. If I had to guess other factors are at play here as well such as read write speeds on the I/O. The game is writing that 900+ random to a log file that then needs to be read by the 3rd party software so delays here might be significant or not. None of that negates the use of cheat software. The claim being made by the OP that they are cheating and I'm pointing out that extra sources of lag on his computer alone does not exonerate them from that accusation. The other racers all fell within that statistical distribution dataset from humanbenchmark.com.

The argument presented here is looking at statistical distributions of the reaction times of racers (not just the accused). The OP has controlled for the major and obvious sources of latency and mechanical lag to the user as best as he can. When we do this over multiple races we can see a pattern of inhuman reaction times emerging.

If this was about 1 time then it would be an anomaly. It's the fact that it repeatedly happens time and time again is the accusation. Statistically he should fall further back in that distribution across multiple races. It's always possible that the OP cherrypicked the data which is why a more formalized accusation would be nice to see.

However, even if the OP cherrypicked the data then we are meant to believe that multiple people who have world class Olympian level reaction times all play classic everquest, are very unusually much older than normal for people with these sorts of reaction times, and all play in vanquish. (I assume nobody in riot has been caught doing this but if they are caught everyone should be banned).

I'm skeptical af about that being true. However, I'm not an expert in these things and this is just my understanding of what was presented.

Again, you are simply ignoring the fact that reaction time on an online game is not only determined by human reaction time. This isn't an Olympic race. Data takes time to travel to and from Servers and Clients. That alone can be 200ms if you have bad ping. OP has no evidence on ruling that out as a factor. Using video recordings can only tell you if an obvious cheat (like teleporting an impossible distance) occurred. Any subtle differences are not easily distinguishable between cheating or other technical factors.

[titanshub]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

None of the footage is very reliable sadly when we are talking about small variations in player location with an online game. Especially an old one where the interpolation code isn't that advanced. The only way you could show obvious cheating is if a player teleported a distance that was farther than someone could possibly go in that period of time.

Lets say the top speed of a racer is 10 meters a second after all regulation buffs have been applied (this isn't supposed to be a real number, just an example). If you see the racer jump ahead 150 meters in 2 seconds, there is no possible way for that to happen, even accounting for lag. I don't see anything like that in OP's videos.

Can I guarantee cheating did not occur? No, but the difference is small enough to fall within the normal range of expected behavior when dealing with an online game.

If the Dev's don't see any clear red flags of cheating in whatever data they capture or player made videos, they can't prove it. Honestly I would rather have Dev's that assume players are innocent until proven guilty, instead of the other way around. It would really suck to get banned for playing the game normally.

Yeah Baz, like I said in another post. Nothing is ever 100% provable. To set the bar so high its impossible to reach undermined the legitimacy of the server. This accusation isn't proof they cheated its evidence. Given the consequences to the server of allowing people to cheat as much as they want I think the bar that needs to be used is beyond a reasonable doubt. To most people, I think that line was crossed a long time ago. However, where you draw that line has major impacts on fairness to the individuals accused as well.

If the methodology and calculations used in this argument stand up I have a hard time understanding how someone could make an honest argument in favor of not punishing those who are accused because it seems unbelievable to the point of absurdity that they are not cheating. However, the real question is does OP's argument really hold water or did he make some mistakes. I think that should be demonstrateable. Go look at races further back, make a dataset and show the pack, not the outliers not conforming to the statistical distribution we expect from the human benchmark data.

[Goldknyght]

Is there a TLDR and TLDW recap? Cheaters gonna cheat n Haters gonna hate. nothing has changed in norrath.

[titanshub]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Again, you are simply ignoring the fact that reaction time on an online game is not only determined by human reaction time. This isn't an Olympic race. Data takes time to travel to and from Servers and Clients. That alone can be 200ms if you have bad ping. OP has no evidence on ruling that out as a factor. Using video recordings can only tell you if an obvious cheat (like teleporting an impossible distance) occurred. Any subtle differences are not easily distinguishable between cheating or other technical factors.

To be truthful, I'm not sure you are understanding the argument that OP is making. If I am the one who is misunderstanding then I am open to being corrected here. However, the argument presented says that certain individuals do not conform to statistical distributions of reaction times across all the races in their dataset. The chances of this being possible to do without cheating is very very improbable. Everyone else conforms to the data set except a person known to be using 3rd part autostart software (Kickinit) and people whose reaction times are so similar as to be statistically indistinguishable as his. Everyone else conforms to the distribution we expect.