Enchanter charm isn't classic, we all know this

[cd288]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Thanks? [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Look, people can attack me personally all they want. According to the forum rules those are supposed to stay in RnF, but /shrug.

Here's the thing though: attacking me personally won't change how EverQuest was back in 1999-2001.



That is mostly correct, but look: Nilbog is only human, as a dedicated "classicist" he's only got two inputs to make anything in the game classic: evidence and player feedback. And because he cares so much about classic, he depends on them heavily. Thus, unclassic Enchanters make perfect sense: no one has surfaced obvious evidence of what P99 has wrong, so he hasn't fixed them yet.

But crucially, he doesn't just go by evidence! Take the AoE nerf: Nilbog did not retreat to a mountain, surveil the game and all available evidence, and then decide "The Overthere wasn't like this in 2000!"

... and can you blame him? If you're dedicated to classic and it's been 20 years since you saw live OT, you're not just going to change it without evidence based on your 20-year old feels. He needed the community to weigh in and say "this needs fixing to be classic" (and also, in that specific case, to be manageable for the all-volunteer staff, as AoE fights used up a lot of their time).

So once again, even though I believe Nilbog isn't a fanboy and cares far more about classic than me or probably anyone else in this thread ... I don't think we can just wait for him to look up from the code and decide that because the big picture isn't "1999", he needs to change it. I think we need to "make some noise", to encourage him to find a new, creative, and above all more classic set of mechanics.

Because again, without getting into the weeds of an specific mechanic change, and losing "the forest from the trees" ... it should be obvious to all who have played here and on live that P99 Enchanters are not yet classic.

You’re missing the part where there’s a massive difference between essentially killing all the mobs in a zone (or in the case of the over there, all the mobs within the specific area of the zone dedicated to that level) at once and Enchanters soloing single camps lol. The former is zone disruption, the latter is normal EQ which people just like to whine about.

By the end of the pre-Kunark days, I saw tons of Enchanters charm soloing on many different servers during the course of my CSR duties. You’re simply wrong.

[Frostback]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

How better can we thank such people than by helping them to make their 98.5% classic server 98.7% classic?

By doing research and posting evidence rather than petition. I'm with Bubar on this, I think any changes made to the enchanter class would make the server less classic than more. It's hard to find old school guides on charming, but any guide that you can find from 1999-2001 supports the conclusion that enchanters were capable of charming the same on live as here on p1999.

[kul69]

Originally Posted by Frostback [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

By doing research and posting evidence rather than petition. I'm with Bubar on this, I think any changes made to the enchanter class would make the server less classic than more. It's hard to find old school guides on charming, but any guide that you can find from 1999-2001 supports the conclusion that enchanters were capable of charming the same on live as here on p1999.

So Necro will be getting unresistable lifetaps back and dagger delay for pets or just Enchanter gets to remain overpowered because "classic"? Bard can AE kite again? Chardok AE is open? If Enchanter isn't nerfed it is only because of favoritism at this point.

Also, Enchanter charm is still not classic. I played an Enchanter on live. I can add to all the anecdotal stories. It was never this easy and reliable. Not until Velious and beyond.

There has already been a ton turned up in this thread. Tashan being resistable. "Kunark era" charm rules, what was classic? CHA impacting per tick break rates. Pet taking experience even in groups. Literally a ton of things to look into.

Regardless of all those obvious factors impacting why charm is abused here it still deserves a nerf purely to keep things in line with how other classes were nerfed. Otherwise it is just favoring the Enchanter class and deciding it alone gets to be overpowered. Unnerf everyone or nerf Enchanter or admit P99 is a joke and not trying to recreate classic.

[loramin]

C'mon people, enough with the straw men!!! Have an honest discussion!

For those that don't understand what a straw man is, allow me to explain this dishonest rhetorical tactic.

Person A says something reasonable, like say "Enchanters are obviously not the same here as on live". Person B has nothing logical/rational they can use to argue with person A's point ... so they create a "straw man", ie. the pretend person A was arguing for something they weren't, because they can argue with that.

These are straw men:

Originally Posted by cd288 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I saw tons of Enchanters charm soloing on many different servers during the course of my CSR duties. You’re simply wrong.

Originally Posted by Frostback [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

any guide that you can find from 1999-2001 supports the conclusion that enchanters were capable of charming the same on live as here on p1999.

And I already directly addressed these straw men earlier:

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

P.S. As for all the other nonsense in this thread ... OF COURSE Enchanters could charm in classic. No one (serious) has ever disputed that Charm existed in classic and that Enchanters had it.

So, when I say "live wasn't like this", and your response is "but live totally had Enchanters charming", it just shows you have nothing to say to the point I'm actually making, and you have to shadow box with your imagination of what I'm saying to have anything to argue over.

[loramin]

Wow, thread got moved to RnF mid-post [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Wasn't able to edit and correct; this should be:

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

ie. they pretend person A was arguing ...

[kul69]

Moved to RnF. No response from staff.

Favoritism for Enchanter it is.

[derpcake2]

Originally Posted by kul69 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Moved to RnF.

Only because the forum doesn't have a trashcan section.

[loramin]

Originally Posted by kul69 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Moved to RnF. No response from staff.

Favoritism for Enchanter it is.

Again, I think there is evidence to support such a conclusion, especially given some recent decisions ... BUT ... there are mountains more evidence that Nilbog cares more about classic EQ than anything else (certainly more than any favoritism).

I mean, the guy's human, so maybe he has a slight unconscious bias towards whatever class he played on live. But if you look at his body of work (10 years of P99), I think it's disrespectful to let a few recent decisions which look like favoritism be equated as favoritism.

[Frostback]

Quote:
Originally Posted by loramin View Post
P.S. As for all the other nonsense in this thread ... OF COURSE Enchanters could charm in classic. No one (serious) has ever disputed that Charm existed in classic and that Enchanters had it.
So, when I say "live wasn't like this", and your response is "but live totally had Enchanters charming", it just shows you have nothing to say to the point I'm actually making, and you have to shadow box with your imagination of what I'm saying to have anything to argue over.

This discussion is about charm mechanics and how powerful it was on live in 1999 vs now on p1999. When you say live wasn't like this, that's just your opinion. I'm not really arguing anything, but what i've read from old school guides seems to support that it's classic.

[bwe]

Enchanters were #1 dps on live everyone who thinks otherwise has brain damage