Race and Class counts last night

[Exard3k]

Originally Posted by NPC [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Parse a high level rogue vs a wizard. Tell me who wins, rogues that backstab for 300-400 without any costs or the wizard spitting 1600 every 72 seconds, it doesn't take a genius. Just in denial.

400dmg with 10sec cooldown = 40 DPS
1615dmg with 7 sec casting = 230 DPS


Of course it's not that easy, but accurate if mob lives <10sec and/or avg pull duration is >=72sec.

So now we're talking about circumstances. And this differs widely. For comparison we need more variables like mob lifetime, pull duration, pull variety, group breaks, mob type, etc. not even talking about quality of dmg.

Things are not that simple.

[Keebz]

Originally Posted by Exard3k [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

400dmg with 10sec cooldown = 40 DPS
1615dmg with 7 sec casting = 230 DPS

Your point on the bursty-ness of wizard damage is well taken, but Backstab is affected by haste.

[Noselacri]

It's not just about the straight math, it's also about application. Doing 100% of your damage with nukes is inefficient in a typical grouping environment. It can be hard not to overkill unless you nuke early enough that you risk taking aggro or use smaller, less efficient nukes. Also, when it's a mob that runs away at low health, there's a lot less value in the last bubble of its health bar because it isn't fighting back anymore. So many classes can snare that "finishing off runners" isn't much of a concern. Early damage is the best damage.

Compared to things like rogues and magician pets who can do their full DPS basically 100% of the time, seamlessly switch targets, never run out of steam and not worry about resists, wizard DPS is just nowhere near as practical. The last one is a big issue as well--in many dungeons, mobs will have buffs from nearby caster buddies, and it hurts a wizard way more if the mob has +40 FR/CR than it hurts a rogue if the mob has like +20 AC from buffs.

If the wizard is nuking every 72 seconds, one resist and he's doing zero DPS for like 2½ minutes. It leads to fights where the wizard doesn't contribute at all, which really messes with a group's rhythm. Melee DPS is much more consistent, even if it wasn't higher.

[Tigris67]

We should just give wizards pets. That would solve their DPS issue!

[NPC]

Originally Posted by Exard3k [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

400dmg with 10sec cooldown = 40 DPS
1615dmg with 7 sec casting = 230 DPS


Of course it's not that easy, but accurate if mob lives <10sec and/or avg pull duration is >=72sec.

So now we're talking about circumstances. And this differs widely. For comparison we need more variables like mob lifetime, pull duration, pull variety, group breaks, mob type, etc. not even talking about quality of dmg.

Things are not that simple.

If you take into account only medding, that 1615dmg is 72 seconds with maximum mana regen clarity II.
So rogue potential is 7 x 400 = 2800 dmg just from backstabs alone, and in the same amount of time for wizard to med enough to do 1615dmg.
That doesn't include fiz or resist or agro mitigation. Not sure about rogue skill cool down/overlaps for backstab an evade.

1615dmg with 7 sec casting + 72 sec medding time = 22 DPS
The problem with wizards, and only wizards, is they have no way to contribute to melee damage, every other class can significantly buff to assist melee damage, and/or use a pet, or do melee damage themselves.
Melee damage is only a CH away from infinite damage. That why only wizards need buffed.

[Exard3k]

You are just not getting it.

No Wizard casts a spell every 72 seconds, goes to 0% mana and casts again when they have mana for that spell again. Not many mobs live for 72 seconds and you can't guarantee another mob ready for nuking in exactly 72 seconds.

Any rogue will tell you, that they aren't on target 100% of the time. This only happens with an enemy that has infinite hp. There are gaps between pulls and time where you dont want want to go full dmg on the mob. And then the healer is oom/Tank goes afk/whatever and pulls are on hold where casters can med (/stockpile) mana where rogue is idle and a wiz dmg just goes on as long he's not FM. And thats only two variables I presented in my posting above, please read again.

Elementary level maths and an utopian case wont help you here, no matter how much you want it to be.

[cd288]

Originally Posted by Exard3k [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

400dmg with 10sec cooldown = 40 DPS
1615dmg with 7 sec casting = 230 DPS


Of course it's not that easy, but accurate if mob lives <10sec and/or avg pull duration is >=72sec.

So now we're talking about circumstances. And this differs widely. For comparison we need more variables like mob lifetime, pull duration, pull variety, group breaks, mob type, etc. not even talking about quality of dmg.

Things are not that simple.

Yeah you’re right it’s not this easy. Because you’re not adding in the constant damage a Rogue is doing over the course of the kill, and you’re not dividing the Wizard’s damage by the zero damage they are doing for the rest of the kill.

It also ignores the many kills a wizard won’t even do any damage on at all because they’re sitting there medding through

[Man0warr]

The group meta during Classic era pretty much boils down to churning through masses of blue mobs - ideally with several in camp at once CC'd - with high sustain DPS from melee and pets. Mana is a bottleneck that is best overcome by not relying on it at all for your damage output - Shaman ignores it with Cannibalize and Torpor, Enchanter with Theft of Thought, and Cleric by ideally only using the hyper efficient Complete Heal on a charmed pet or Warrior.

Wizards just don't fit in. In real application or on paper using math. Great and required in Velious for burst damage in Raid situations though.

[Gustoo]

Wizards are the best class in the game anyone should be honored to have one in a group. Fact.

When you're doing back to back destruction classes that can't get mana faster than C2 speed end up being the bottleneck. That's why Shamans are OP in many situations because they have legit powerful spells and the ability to get mana back.

[Exard3k]

Originally Posted by Man0warr [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The group meta during Classic era pretty much boils down to churning through masses of blue mobs - ideally with several in camp at once CC'd - with high sustain DPS from melee and pets. Mana is a bottleneck that is best overcome by not relying on it at all for your damage output - Shaman ignores it with Cannibalize and Torpor, Enchanter with Theft of Thought, and Cleric by ideally only using the hyper efficient Complete Heal on a charmed pet or Warrior.

ideal situation isn't what I see here on green in most groups. Only because everyone knows whats best, doesnt mean the group can do it. Shamans dont ignore mana at all on green. Asked three shamans and myself (48 shm), most replies were sth along "lol?!?", so no, Shamans need mana and go oom like every other class with mana.

Originally Posted by cd288 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Yeah you’re right it’s not this easy. Because you’re not adding in the constant damage a Rogue is doing over the course of the kill,

Of course I would do that. But I never made any proper calculations. I just stated that a more realistic approach needs other variables, yours among them. That's what et cetera means.

edit: wizard only does zero dps when he's full mana (maximum amount of dmg stored). Melee dps is always zero when the character in question isn't attacking a mob.

Originally Posted by cd288 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

and you’re not dividing the Wizard’s damage by the zero damage they are doing for the rest of the kill.

I do. This is what we call dps. it is damage per second or damage divided by time