Best 4 person all caster/priest group

[magnetaress]

Enchanter + necro + druid + cleric.

[bcbrown]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I did not say Shamans can out DPS a Mage in single target scenarios, which is what people are going to think when you accuse me of saying "Shamans can out DPS Mages". I said Shamans can out DPS a Mage if you can root rot multiple mobs at a time, which is a perfectly valid strategy in an XP group where you are just churning through mobs.

I'd be really interested in hearing about your experiences trying this strategy. Say, any XP or loot groups with someone charming, and with you spending the majority of your time root rotting. What zones and groups have you had success with it?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by bcbrown [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'd be really interested in hearing about your experiences trying this strategy. Say, any XP or loot groups with someone charming, and with you spending the majority of your time root rotting. What zones and groups have you had success with it?

Oh sure, I've done it in Seb and Velks groups before. It's no different from root rotting solo in those zones. Just root rot while the Enchanters are churning away. They can target the DoTed mobs if you need to move your camp or just need to clean up. It is already a common
group strategy to simply root mobs away from the group for CC purposes. It's not a large leap to apply DoTs to those mobs. For casters it just depends on your resists. I have raid gear, so I can just resist tank the casters safely. The Enchanters don't really need to mes to stop casting. I am referring to Seb mobs for the casters, obviously different zones can have stronger casters.

The issue with this thread is a lot of people claiming it doesn't work keep switching between loot and xp groups to try and keep it unclear as to what they were talking about. They know they can't win the argument if you pin them down on the type of group.

Obviously root rotting doesn't work when you are just camping a single loot mob like Fungi King. But the point they don't want to hear is if all you are doing is killing a single mob every 30 minutes, an extra 50 DPS is irrelevant. It takes 90 seconds to kill Fungi King at 200 DPS, vs. 72 seconds with 250 DPS. Theres no point in bringing a Mage for an 18 second saving every 30 minutes.

Some Fungi King groups xp at the same time while waiting for respawn, but that still doesn't need extra dps. I've done both styles of Fungi King group before. Shaman is a popular class at that camp.

[cyxthryth]

For anyone catching back up on this thread or for new-attendees in need of a TL;DR, here is the current state of the discussion based on all available evidence (I submit this entire thread as such evidence):

DSM simply has not addressed/replied to/acknowledged/defended/challenged/attempted to refute the following:

DSM has repeatedly provided copy/pastes which simply do not contain any evidence or data of his Shaman performing DPS - or any other action/activity - in an environment/context/scenario that is (or would be) relevant to the discussion; hence his copy/pastes are irrelevant to this discussion.

While DSM is - seemingly - unable or unwilling to provide relevant evidence/data that supports his many claims/statements/positions (which change when he moves the goalposts & edits his posts), I have irrefutable proof of the following, which DSM has as of yet not addressed/replied to/acknowledged/defended/challenged/attempted to refute:

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self-evident - of DSM attempting to move the goalposts by bringing a 5th "pocket" character into his "arguments" (even though this is intended to be a civil discussion - not an argument) pertaining to the "Best 4 person all caster/priest group" discussion":

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

OP never said you couldn't have a pocket cleric. I am not sure why people keep thinking this is not a possible route to take. Between four people it would be trivial to level a cleric to 39. It is pretty common for people to make pocket clerics on P99.

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - that DSM attempted to accuse others of
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum:

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The post history is clear. You are now including cyxthryth to try and strengthen your https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum argument because you have nothing else. I find it highly amusing.

Here is my reply to DSM's attempt, in which I point out to him the irrefutable fact - which cannot be refuted - that DSM himself attempted - laughably - to claim (intentionally or otherwise) that https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum strengthened his argument when one (1) single other person seemed to agree with him:

Originally Posted by eqravenprince [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I think since my post is general, then there was never a goalpost to begin with. Best is whatever you personally think best means.

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Having multiple conversations simultaneously is not moving goalposts. Talking about pocket clerics when OP didn't specify that was outside of the scope is not moving goalposts. OP's question was general, and he has said as much.

Originally Posted by cyxthryth [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Your post would seem to betray that you are aware that you have moved goalposts, because you are now attempting (disingenuously) to validate said goalpost-moving by stating that it is objectively true that the OP's post "is general" and that this somehow means "you are not moving the goalposts" by changing the basis of the discussion (from being about 4 priests/casters, to being about 4 priests/casters plus X amount of pocket Clerics, or other pocket classes). It is not objectively true that you are "not moving the goalposts" just because you and OP both agree that the OP's post "was general" and that that somehow means "you are not moving the goalposts". That is simply you - laughably - claiming you (and OP) are correct due to argumentum ad populum hehe. This really isn't hard.

Please clarify what you mean by stating OP's post "was general"?

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - that DSM has claimed:

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Assuming your group plays correctly, you will DPS the same way every time, the same as if you were solo.

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I am very confident it won't change in a group scenario.

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - that DSM has also claimed:

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

in a group setting, there are too many variables out of your control that can skew the data

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Once you add in outside variables, that changes the DPS equation NOT because of what the class can do, but because of what other players are doing.

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - of DSM's post in which he claimed Troxx's numbers were way different from Allishia's:

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Also Allishia's numbers were way different from yours

Here is irrefutable proof/evidence - which cannot be refuted, and which is self evident - of DSM's post to Allishia when they provided their initial data in which he claimed Allishia's numbers were the same as Troxx's:

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Thanks for the data! I'll get the logs from you a bit later today. Just looking at it here, the numbers are the same as Troxx's data.

As I have repeatedly stated - it is not always clear to other posters what particular position/claim/"argument"(s) DSM is defending at any given time due to how often he has moved the goalposts & edited his posts.

For these reasons - which I have repeatedly stated - I am not sure which particular/specific belief/claim/stance/"argument"(s) that DSM is currently holding/defending/"arguing"; it would be helpful if he could elaborate/clarify/specify for the sake of civil discussion.

I am also not sure why DSM has continued to copy/paste his - irrelevant - data, after this exchange occured - which cannot be refuted & is visible and clear in the cleary visible post history - which DSM simply has as of yet not addressed/replied to/acknowledged/defended/challenged/attempted to refute

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The reason why I am reposting the information is because the trolls are trying to hide the information.

Originally Posted by cyxthryth [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

No. The content of your post seems to include a claim that "the trolls" are trying to "hide the information". The first problem is that your post would seem to indicate that you believe that information will be "hidden" if additional posts are made - that is objectively false/incorrect DSM. Even if additional posts are made after a specific post, the post history is - and will remain - clear hehe.

Now that you have been advised and/or reminded of this irrefutable fact - which cannot be refuted - you should not need to continue to copy/paste to make sure your posts do not get "hidden" hehe.

I am also not sure why your post(s) would seemingly indicate that you think that the particular data/information that you keep providing in your copy/pasted posts - which includes data/information of your Shaman's performance in an environment/context/scenario that is contrary to the environment/context/scenario relevant to this discussion, as has been pointed out to you multiple times by multiple posters - is somehow relevant to this discussion. It is not. It is simply irrelevant for reasons explained in multiple posts by multiple posters (including in this very post).

Even though DSM ultimately - without addressing/replying to/acknowledging/defending/challenging/attempting to refute the above - seemingly openly conceded his "argument(s)" - whatever they were at the time - by stating the following on 9/18/2022:

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This will be my last post

DSM has recently returned to this thread & has proceed posting additional replies - to posters other than myself. This would seemingly indicate DSM has chosen to return to this civil discussion. DSM - of course - still has not addressed/replied to/acknowledged/defended/challenged/attempted to refute the aforementioned above quotes, and as is clearly visible in the post history DSM has continued to label me and/or my posts as "a troll"/"trolling", without providing the definition of "troll" / "trolling" that he is using (nor what he meant by stating that OP's post "was general"), and whilst providing zero evidence to support his claims of my being a troll/trolling.

The ball is - still - in DSM's court if he has relevant, factual data to support his various positions/claims/"argument"(s) - and is willing to clarify which particular position/claim/argument(s) he currently holds/"argues", as they change when he moves goalposts or edits his posts - and/or if he would like to provide the definitions he is using for "troll"/"trolling", "nonsense", "silly", "vitriol", "new" and "win" for the sake of civil discussin hehe.[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[Gloomlord]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Oh sure, I've done it in Seb and Velks groups before. It's no different from root rotting solo in those zones. Just root rot while the Enchanters are churning away. They can target the DoTed mobs if you need to move your camp or just need to clean up. It is already a common
group strategy to simply root mobs away from the group for CC purposes. It's not a large leap to apply DoTs to those mobs. For casters it just depends on your resists. I have raid gear, so I can just resist tank the casters safely. The Enchanters don't really need to mes to stop casting. I am referring to Seb mobs for the casters, obviously different zones can have stronger casters.

The issue with this thread is a lot of people claiming it doesn't work keep switching between loot and xp groups to try and keep it unclear as to what they were talking about. They know they can't win the argument if you pin them down on the type of group.

Obviously root rotting doesn't work when you are just camping a single loot mob like Fungi King. But the point they don't want to hear is if all you are doing is killing a single mob every 30 minutes, an extra 50 DPS is irrelevant. It takes 90 seconds to kill Fungi King at 200 DPS, vs. 72 seconds with 250 DPS. Theres no point in bringing a Mage for an 18 second saving every 30 minutes.

Some Fungi King groups xp at the same time while waiting for respawn, but that still doesn't need extra dps. I've done both styles of Fungi King group before. Shaman is a popular class at that camp.

Provided you're somehow telling the truth, you pathetic creature: there's still no reason for you to take 3-4 mobs to a camp and root rot them, rather than a mage simply increasing the speed of a kill on a single mob for the price of 2 keybinds.

And you selected this scenario simply to show us that shamans can indeed do more damage than mages, which was only triggered by your cowardly refusal to admit that groups try to kill one target at a time in EQ. Why? Because it's more efficient to do so.

There are better players than you who don't root rot next to camp doing charms. It just doesn't happen.

Watching your videos, I can see you barely press keybinds either. You're telling me you're going to do more than a mage in a group without completely disrupting it by getting multiple mobs in the camp in order to root rot?

Unless I see video evidence of you doing this in a group with 2 charms, you can fuck right off.

[Duik]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Please keep posting nonsense. It just discredits you further. I can just sit back and watch.

No, you actualy cannot do that. Literally, it is demonstrably impossible for you to not have the final (and mathematically correct) word.
None of you (us) can.
4 potting rooted and dotted mobs, essentially soloing, while grouped is the height of rudeness and stupidity. It may work and even be efficient (no one cares though) but it has many ways to go sideways that a group concentrating on one actve and possibly 1-2 mezzed. You fuck ya 4 pull, root resists on one and shit hits fan, solo you gate or zone. Ya group mates could be fucked.
If you grouped with me and proceeded to "solo" 4 mobs in or near camp, you would literally be solo. Just before an accidentall memblur train on yo arse. /shrug

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Duik [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

No, you actualy cannot do that. Literally, it is demonstrably impossible for you to not have the final (and mathematically correct) word.
None of you (us) can.
4 potting rooted and dotted mobs, essentially soloing, while grouped is the height of rudeness and stupidity. It may work and even be efficient (no one cares though) but it has many ways to go sideways that a group concentrating on one actve and possibly 1-2 mezzed. You fuck ya 4 pull, root resists on one and shit hits fan, solo you gate or zone. Ya group mates could be fucked.
If you grouped with me and proceeded to "solo" 4 mobs in or near camp, you would literally be solo. Just before an accidentall memblur train on yo arse. /shrug

Seems like you just need to play the game more. Root rotting isn't more dangerous than Charming a pet and giving it a torch + haste. That can also backfire and wipe the party.

Saying you cannot do something that people have done before is a silly argument to make. If your group agrees to it, there is no problem. I am not sure why you are assuming I just started root rotting without group approval lol.

Most groups don't bother doing these kinds of strategies because long time players intuitively understand you don't need to maximize DPS to have efficient kill speeds. You are correct on that point. This is why Mage is unnecessary in this four man group. Two Enchanters are covering the DPS just fine. But if people admitted that, then they would admit Mage is unecessary, and they are unwilling to do that.

This is why you don't see a lot of 6 man XP groups. Six people do more DPS, but you aren't gettng enough XP in return to justify the extra DPS. The same logic applies for this four man group. The Mage's extra DPS isn't useful enough to justify wasting a group slot. If you need CoTH, that is a different story.

Originally Posted by Gloomlord [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Unless I see video evidence of you doing this in a group with 2 charms, you can fuck right off.

You have provided zero evidence for any of your claims thus far. You need to provide some evidence for your claims first[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] It is a lazy tactic to keep asking for evidence, while providing nothing in return. I have actually provided evidence in this thread.

I don't normally record group sessions because I think it is impolite to upload videos without the groups approval.

[bcbrown]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Oh sure...

What's your success rate when you pitch the idea to a group? Are you operating almost-totally separate, or still doing anything with the charm-chainsaw? I imagine monitoring a half-dozen root-rots keeps you pretty busy?

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This is why you don't see a lot of 6 man XP groups. Six people do more DPS, but you aren't gettng enough XP in return to justify the extra DPS. The same logic applies for this four man group. The Mage's extra DPS isn't useful enough to justify wasting a group slot. If you need CoTH, that is a different story.

Is it fair to characterize your position as "everyone agrees enc/enc/clr is the starting three, and as the fourth slot doesn't really matter, here's my pitch for shaman"?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by bcbrown [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

What's your success rate when you pitch the idea to a group? Are you operating almost-totally separate, or still doing anything with the charm-chainsaw? I imagine monitoring a half-dozen root-rots keeps you pretty busy?

I don't have data on "success rate", as I do not play the game specifically for this discussion. When I play with a group, I am generally not in the mood to do game mechanic exploration. I just want to have some fun. I also think it is scummy to use a random group as a test subject, as the test could affect the groups progress. I don't do that.

Generally when I end up DoTing multiple rooted enemies, it is because the group is already bringing in multiple mobs and CCing with root. The group and I know which mobs are not going to be an issue if they get DoTed, so the group doesn't deny my request to DoT.

In a place like Velks, it is easy to get the group to agree to root rotting spiders. There are plenty to kill, the risk is low, and the verticality allows you to gain xp from the kills without worry. I can do that independant of what the group is doing.

Originally Posted by bcbrown [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Is it fair to characterize your position as "everyone agrees enc/enc/clr is the starting three, and as the fourth slot doesn't really matter, here's my pitch for shaman"?

My position is Shaman/Enchanter/Monk, with the fourth member being flexible. Due to the specific restriction of no melee classes, that changes the equation a bit.

I said Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Shaman or Enchanter/Enchanter/Shaman/Necro in my original post on this thread. This is because 2x Enchanters provide the DPS, and the Shaman + Cleric supply enough utility and mitigation to keep the Enchanters going without a hitch. Shamans with Torpor can also do some encounters Enchanters can't (such as WW Dragons), so you are expanding the content you can do.

You swap the Cleric for Necro if you need FD, because you don't need CH for 3-4 player content, and Necros can res. You aren't doing fights that use Warrior discs, and you can have the Shaman tank to alleviate the need to CH pets. The vast majority of 3-4 player content does not out damage Torpor + Slow. The content that does is generally safer with 5-6 people. Its risky to do something like Xenovorash with a low player count. It's better to just ask a few friends to help you so you don't lose progress. You only have about 50 minutes before the mob despawns.

[Duik]

Im the last poster.