Amendment to Kael Footrace rules ( request )

Kileras · #1 04-06-2016, 09:36 AM

Can we all agree on a separate addition to the kael Footrace raiding rules, something like:

FTE gurantees 1 attempt within 1.5 hours of FTE, or until your guild engages another raid target.

i only heard rumor mill of what happened over in Kael last night, and it completely blows my mind. Would a change like this seem fair to all involved? You should not be able to tag FTE on a mob on earthquake and then move elsewhere to focus on other targets and come back at your leisure.

thoughts?

Breaken · #2 04-06-2016, 09:51 AM

It seems like the "or until your guild engages another raid target" would be in the spirit of the original rule.

phiren · #3 04-06-2016, 10:25 AM

The questions become .. how does a guild know 2 things:
#1) Who got FTE?
The guild that got FTE had ZERO people in zone. The only reason I heard about it was from another person from another guild. I really have no suggestions here. Everything I can think of requires some kind of website / programming, which I'm assuming is off the table, or people to be honest and maintain a member in zone announcing their guild has claim to KT.
#2) That guild from #1 'engages another raid mob'
Since everyone here likes to completely pick apart rules and find loopholes... let's say guild XXX gets FTE and goes to NToV, and never engages a mob because they get beat. I *assure you*, that guild XXX will maintain they never engaged another raid mob and KT is still theirs. You can see 90 people from the other guild in the other zone, but unless you have someone in zone watching them the whole time ... again ... you will never know.

I love the footrace rule and am 100% a fan, but I just don't think it should apply to earthquakes.

~Phiren

Culkasi · #4 04-06-2016, 10:26 AM

I am pretty disgusted that we have to discuss this, I thought it was obvious from discussions in the meeting what the intent of the rule is, but if we can't stop behaving like children, then yes, put a hard rule in that the FTE is only valid until you decide to engage another raid target.
I am pretty furious with what happened, and am very disapointed that this discussion is even nessescary.

bktroost · #5 04-06-2016, 10:27 AM

I think that's a fantastic amendment. But I think it should read "Until a guild gets FTE on another raid mob." This rule was made to end trains and open opportunity. In this scenario it encouraged a guild to tag a mob to REDUCE opportunity. It was frankly unacceptable.

Funny aside here: The only people who would consider doing something so corrupt as manipulating a raid rule to the absolute opposite purpose of it is the guild that we want to look at those raid rules to help us see how they can be manipulated. Those who would not do those things don't because they'd never dream of doing them and therefore are the worst people to brainstorm about loopholes. That being said, the one who is best suited to find those loopholes are the ones who want them to exist.

I guess the only way to make this all work is to trial run these rules and have terrible, spirit breaking run ins like last night and work through them step by step and taking our lumps as we go.

Thanks Fugues and Breaken for bringing this up for us. I think it's a great amendment to fix a terrible situation.

bktroost · #6 04-06-2016, 10:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by phiren [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You can see 90 people from the other guild in the other zone, but unless you have someone in zone watching them the whole time ... again ... you will never know.

I love the footrace rule and am 100% a fan, but I just don't think it should apply to earthquakes.

~Phiren

If the rules was who got FTE then it would be really easy for GMs to see in the logs. however, in the moment players need a way to point to them getting FTE. I suppose we could communicate across guilds, sure. But how much can we value the opinion of another guild.

Here's the real crux though. If they are not allowed to get FTE on another mob once they get FTE on Tormax then that means they are risking a 10 DAY FULL raiding ban if they break that. Since it IS super visible to GMs I cannot imagine they would make such a risk.

Kileras · #7 04-06-2016, 11:22 AM

the standard operating procedure has been that FTE means securing a kill within minutes after the FTE message. There should be nothing wrong with saying that if you get FTE you should have your raid incoming to kill that mob ASAP, if you choose to FTE another mob, then you better have two raid forces, or more precisely you should have to concede all FTE's following it.

if you need to kill the mob within minutes, then go ahead and footrace and translocate your runner and start the train ( and take full responsibility for it ). kill your mob and move on like you used to. If you aren't going to do that, then I think you should be conceding all FTE's post king/statue until you have them killed. it is absurd and beyond greedy to utilize the foot racing ruleset to enable you a stall on targets. It is such a blatant exploitation of a good natured rule that i was in complete shock when i heard it happened.

Daldaen · #8 04-06-2016, 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Breaken [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

It seems like the "or until your guild engages another raid target" would be in the spirit of the original rule.

Very difficult to monitor this when the guild vacates the zone and heads to a completely different zone. Not every guild is Lord Varys. We don't have ears in every corner of Norrath watching for fresh FTE messages.

First to Engage gets a free attempt is just a bad way of handling FTE.

The rule wasn't designed with sim repops in mind because of how rare they had been recently. I surely hope they continue but the rules need to account for them and we simply didn't discuss this during our meeting because we hadn't had one in awhile.

Pint · #9 04-06-2016, 11:27 AM

Which two guild representatives first asked what the time expectation on an engage were? Your responses were the generic aversion to "player made agreements" and it has bitten you in the ass just like we told you it would. Work. With. Us....

Aftermath fully supports limitations on how long a target can be left unengaged.

bktroost · #10 04-06-2016, 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pint [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Which two guild representatives first asked what the time expectation on an engage were? Your responses were the generic aversion to "player made agreements" and it has bitten you in the ass just like we told you it would. Work. With. Us....

Aftermath fully supports limitations on how long a target can be left unengaged.

Incorrect approach in my opinion. Strapping a culture of high pressure raiding that requires pulling tactics that are inherent to only one culture is wrong. It took us 45 minutes to clear to KT and attempt to pull him out.

2 hour rule: If you said 2 hours for a FTE attempt that gives you 2 hours to high pressure pull 5 mobs in ToV or Zland and rush over to the content you have locked down in Kael.

Result: great stall opportunity for hard core guilds. Less opportunity for casuals because of locked content.

20 minute rule: If you say 20 minutes and it takes 45 to clear then you force casuals to play a style of training mobs to entrance and remove a culture of clearing mobs. If they try anything else then they lose their window and the mob again gets locked.

Results: a forced culture and mobs being locked out for no particular guild. A lose of opportunity.

So time being the factor is a complete mistake. If the goal is to reduce stalling and open opportunity then the answer is mob per mob. If you want the FTE attempt then have a force and its the next mob you kill after fte ( policable by guilds) or if that guild gets a different fte then they lose rights( policable by staff).