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  #11  
Old 11-08-2020, 02:49 PM
DeathsSilkyMist DeathsSilkyMist is offline
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A Shaman and Shadowknight combo would be a better duo in most cases. Shamans have pretty good damage already, and Shadowknights can pull way better than warriors because of FD.

I think the better pulling capacity will end up saving more time and mana than the white damage you lose. It takes a lot of mana to CC multiple mobs as a Shaman, especially before you get torpor. This would mean more downtime between kills.

As stated above, if you want more DPS, do Shaman/Monk instead. Monks can tank just fine, and also has good pulling and DPS.
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  #12  
Old 11-08-2020, 03:51 PM
Penish Penish is offline
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So outside the general information from people that have basically 0 clue about the mechanics of p99. hybrid DPS is horrible. I mean like holy fuck horrible. Roll a warrior or a monk.

Also if you're using anything other than your level 14 shaman root (30 mana) to CC with. Chances are you don't understand what's going on with your shaman anyway.

In a nutshell if you're looking to mow down content and not feel gimped, get that monk or warrior going.

If you want cool spell effects with no dps whatsoever, that SK is gonna rock it.
  #13  
Old 11-08-2020, 07:29 PM
radbeard radbeard is offline
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one thing people seem to keep ignoring is that I already have a high level monk, i'm not making another. So i'm asking specifically about SK vs Warrior for sub-level 50 with ~20k budget to twink.

I know SK DPS is garbage on post-50 content, but is it very different from warrior at 42?
If both classes are wielding a 32/38 2-hander at lvl 42 is that a huge dps gap? Or are people just responding to how bad SKs DPS is in 51+ content in Velious?
  #14  
Old 11-08-2020, 11:58 PM
DeathsSilkyMist DeathsSilkyMist is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Penish [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
So outside the general information from people that have basically 0 clue about the mechanics of p99. hybrid DPS is horrible. I mean like holy fuck horrible. Roll a warrior or a monk.

Also if you're using anything other than your level 14 shaman root (30 mana) to CC with. Chances are you don't understand what's going on with your shaman anyway.

In a nutshell if you're looking to mow down content and not feel gimped, get that monk or warrior going.

If you want cool spell effects with no dps whatsoever, that SK is gonna rock it.
Insulting people is not an argument, nor does it validate any points you have made[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

When you want to level up, the only thing that matters is kills per hour. DPS is only one factor that determines how many kills per hour you can do, especially in a duo situation where you do not have a truck load of DPS just melting mobs.

A duo Shaman is going to be healing, buffing, debuffing, and damaging. All of that takes time and mana. Even an extra 30 mana per 3 mobs per 48 seconds adds up very quickly when you are doing all of these other things.

You are mistaken that Shamans only use their lowest level root. That is not always a good move, because it is a waste of casting time to keep having to re-root a monster every 48 seconds or so. If you have 3 monsters CCed, that means you need to spend about 8-10 seconds every 48 seconds to re-root, or you will get a break. That means you only have 38 seconds in between root casting to do other things. Shamans tend to be a casting heavy class, with a lot of spells having longer cast times. Boxing yourself in to a shorter cycle of casting reduces a Shaman's effectiveness, and requires them to split their attention much more frequently.

If you pull 3 tough mobs that can chew through your duo quickly, you root AND slow, so you do not take a chunk of damage if root breaks early. If the mobs are magic resistant/higher level as well, you root, malo, and slow. One set of Root, Malo, and Slow at level 34 is Enstill (60 Mana), Malaisement (100 Mana), and Tagar's Insects (125 Mana). That is 285 Mana per mob initially, and 245 mana every three minutes (1 slow and two roots), assuming no resists, until the monsters are dead. That will drain any Shaman quite quickly.

By consistently pulling one mob at a time, a Shaman doesn't even need to cast root (unless you need to stop a monster from running). They can just slow and let you tank the mob down, while doing damage of their own. If you are able to kill 30 monsters per hour, you are saving at least 900-1800 mana per hour on root alone, depending on the root you use, and assuming you do not need to cast it more than once. That means less down time and more killing.

That is why a Warrior is often going to be harder to play with in a duo situation, because your Shaman will need to do a lot more CCing whenever a pull contains multiple monsters. So even though a Warrior will do more damage, the Shaman will do less damage, and have more down time.

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Originally Posted by radbeard [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
one thing people seem to keep ignoring is that I already have a high level monk, i'm not making another. So i'm asking specifically about SK vs Warrior for sub-level 50 with ~20k budget to twink.

I know SK DPS is garbage on post-50 content, but is it very different from warrior at 42?
If both classes are wielding a 32/38 2-hander at lvl 42 is that a huge dps gap? Or are people just responding to how bad SKs DPS is in 51+ content in Velious?
Ah I didn't read the part about you having a monk already, my bad[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] On a 20k budget you can buy Silver Chitin Hand Wraps and a plethora of great SK weapons for pretty cheap, so you should be fine on DPS. Shadowknights also get a pet and DoTs/Life Tap to help with DPS or reduce how often you need to heal. On top of that, they can fear kite, further reducing how much mana you need to use on healing. This means the Shaman can probably DoT more anyway. As I mentioned above, your melee classes white damage is not really the primary factor in kills per hour when you are duoing. If that was the case, you would actually want to do a Rogue/Shaman combo, where the Shaman tanks and the Rogue backstabs[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
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  #15  
Old 11-09-2020, 02:55 AM
Danth Danth is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
Insulting people is not an argument, nor does it validate any points you have made[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
That guy's a known forum troll (the juvenile handle and profanity should give it away, I think) who seldom adds anything beyond absurd claims and hyperbole.

-------------------------------------------------

On Blue, Paladin and especially Shadow Knight damage isn't nearly so bad as people think because Blue has the upgraded damage tables as well as upgraded 2H weapons. It's distinctly better than Green. At high levels Shadow Knights also gain significant damage from their pets, but the original poster sounds like he may not reach that point and the pets in the level 22-52 range are rather bad.

I do not particularly recommend a Shadow Knight if you plan to stop at circa level 50. I regard the SK class as best at level 60. I feel it has something of a "dead zone" during the middle levels where your character will spend most of its lifespan. It won't have the good pets, the good lifetaps, the good feign spell, or the stronger damage spells. You aren't high enough to use weapons with the better syphon-type effects and Vampiric Embrace is awful at low level. On 20K you won't afford the instant-click invisibility. You don't even get Feign Death until level thirty and even if you do, in truth feign pulling doesn't matter ALL that much at low-mid levels, at least not like it does later on. At this level range it'll mostly feel like a somewhat slower Monk that can carry more cash and (eventually) invis itself. Of the three conventional tank classes I like Paladin best during this level range; the SK does not impress me overmuch during that level range.

-----------------------------------

To answer the original poster's specific question: Autoattack/white damage between the two classes starts to diverge somewhat as warrior dual wield starts to become useful during the 30's, and the warrior pulls ahead a bit more at 50+ as absolute skillcaps come into play. At 60 with Triple attack the Warrior has a fair advantage, although again this is partially mitigated by the SK spells and the pet to a greater extent than is commonly realized. Nonetheless, if you're wanting to deal what feels like "good" damage and particularly if you're used to a monk, a shadow knight is going to feel slow.

Danth
Last edited by Danth; 11-09-2020 at 02:57 AM..
  #16  
Old 11-09-2020, 03:11 AM
Penish Penish is offline
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Nerds lol, didn't read the spam. Yeah your hit rates on hybrids are dogshit to the end of velious and beyond. Like I said SK for the cool factor, but with a well played shaman at your side. You'll be crushing mobs at a 3-1 pace on that warrior.
  #17  
Old 11-09-2020, 07:33 AM
Snaggles Snaggles is offline
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Danth always speaking truth [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.].

I too glossed over the monk part. The main reason to reroll a tank is to be able to play with your friend from an equal place. Definitely a difference experience than powerleveling. Likewise you get to grind up a tank rather than having to solo or PL that.

Rather than thinking about what is best id think about what you want to have in the end. A warrior would make for the most difficult pulling but you can pick your targets and do just fine. Outdoor zones like The Overthere can take you to 50 with easy solo pulls. Goos and Geos are fine after if not wanting to go to like The Hole. Plus it’s always easy enough to add another dps to speed things up or keep it interesting.

A SK/Sham isn’t as quick as the monk/sham but having a legitimate method of snaring (besides sham innoruuk neck) can be very nice. Likewise spell aggro is the main reason knights are fun and extremely useful. Nobody rolls one for dps.

You might even consider a ranger. Outdoor pulling with harmony would be easy. Indoors you still have snare and root plus aggro spells. Tracking, fear animal, two sow classes etc. On a similar gear level they are much more squishy than the other melees (besides bards) but duo content slowed is pretty damn easy.
Last edited by Snaggles; 11-09-2020 at 07:35 AM..
  #18  
Old 11-09-2020, 10:17 AM
Stonewallx39 Stonewallx39 is offline
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Warrior will do substantially more DPS then a SK, buuut we’re comparing against one of the lowest DPS classes. If an SK only does 15dps (let’s say in the 30s) and a warrior does 40% more that’s only 21dps. I mean 6dps is not game breaking.

The fact that your shaman could slow as soon as the mob’s in camp, he can save mana otherwise spent healing and rooting the mob off of himself once he steals aggro from the warrior. This can be put towards more dots/buffs/etc. to make up the damage. With his pet and other tools the shaman will be more than making up for losses from the warrior. Plus with single pulls and escaping deadly situations (feign death + gate) your total time saved will put you over the edge.

Shadow knight is fun in other ways besides big DPS. Warrior is out of control most of the time and has to rely on his group (trust me I know). Warrior will need lower DPS/high aggro proccing weapons to seriously build aggro. Sure if the warrior can keep aggro they’ll do great and you’ll have tons of fun but not having aggro on a warrior is miserable. Yes the shammy can root every mob to help you out but again totally reliant on your group as a warrior. You’lll be able to contribute more with the knight even if it’s not in the form of DPS.
  #19  
Old 11-09-2020, 03:44 PM
radbeard radbeard is offline
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I appreciate the thought everyone put into this question, including silkymist who, as far as I can tell, made similar points to other people here.

I guess I am slight lean towards SK. Weapons like Ebon mace, or if i wanted to spend a bunch, Shard of Night, seem like they make up for a lot of the dps hit. Combined with snare, FD, and snap aggro it sounds like SK is the better over-all choice.

I would have thought that if I decided to keep playing SK post-50 that is when I would start to really regret the choice but it sounds like from people here that they only get appreciably better, so that is promising.

Thanks again all.
  #20  
Old 11-09-2020, 04:57 PM
DeathsSilkyMist DeathsSilkyMist is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by radbeard [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
I appreciate the thought everyone put into this question, including silkymist who, as far as I can tell, made similar points to other people here.

I guess I am slight lean towards SK. Weapons like Ebon mace, or if i wanted to spend a bunch, Shard of Night, seem like they make up for a lot of the dps hit. Combined with snare, FD, and snap aggro it sounds like SK is the better over-all choice.

I would have thought that if I decided to keep playing SK post-50 that is when I would start to really regret the choice but it sounds like from people here that they only get appreciably better, so that is promising.

Thanks again all.
No problem!

SK's definitely get better 50+ as pointed out above. You have access to all of your proc weapons/clickies, the 50-60 spells are substantially better than your 1-49 spells, and if you roll Troll/Iksar, your innate regen goes up way more.

The only time you would really regret rolling a Hybrid class is if you want to Raid, since they don't get to do much on that front. However, your attitude on raiding seems pretty clear, so I doubt you will have any regrets unless you suddenly want to raid tank later down the line[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] Even if you do want to raid later, the silver lining is Hybrid gear tends to be cheap, so you can really deck out your toon for much better DPS when you go back to grouping/duoing/soloing.
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