Please check my math on Troll vs Ogre Shaman

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Crede [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

What does snare not being needed and troll regeneration not needed have anything to do with this entire debate? FSI isn't needed either. No racial is needed to solo any mob, for any class. Your bash scenarios literally mean nothing to help kill the mob, a troll just might have to click a spell gem an extra time or 2.

I never claimed any racial was needed to kill these mobs, or any other mobs. You can read everything I have said. I am not sure why people keep claiming I am saying racials are required to be a Torpor Shaman. I have never said that, and I have said multiple times already in this thread a Torpor Shaman's race is irrelevant.

The debate has always been which racial is the best, irrespective of the fact that it doesn't really matter. Just because it doesn't really matter, doesn't mean people don't want to know which race is best. This is why people keep asking over and over and over across multiple forums! One race is factually the best, and I don't see why it is such a travesty to figure that out, even if you don't like the results.

I keep saying "Regeneration and Snare wasn't needed" because that is factually correct. I never needed snare to keep the mobs under control, and I was never at a point where Regeneration would have saved my life. You can do the math yourself to confirm this. My point is to show common scenarios Shamans encounter, and how useful a racial is in that scenario. In all the videos I posted, I WAS getting bashed. This means FSI was doing more for me than Regeneration and Snare. It is really that simple, and factually correct. I have video evidence.

Originally Posted by Crede [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You say you're trying to help, but this thread was quiet for a few days, then you started stirring shit up again. As I already stated, you're just a biased ogre whose borderline trolling at this point pretending your math actually is convincing anybody other than yourself.

If your definition of "stirring shit up" is having a civil discussion and posting evidence, we will need to agree to disagree on that one lol. I am not the one insulting people and posting memes when I am unable to counter someones point. Not saying you did that specifically, I don't think you did. But some people are[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I find it funny that I am the biased one, when I am the only one spending the time and effort to post videos showing how an actual Torpor Shaman works. So far, I have a lot more evidence to prove my point than yourself. It is pretty biased to assume you are right, AND you don't need any evidence to be right. Maybe you are the biased one?[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Originally Posted by Crede [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

We get it, FSI is cool, my next char could likely be an ogre war/SK, but you're just giving us hypothetical scenarios against tried and true regeneration. 1, 2, 3, or 4 more torpors in an hour, whatever it is, it's helping you more than FSI is in the overall gameplay that encompasses a shaman.

Why do people disagree with my math? Do you have a different way to interpret Multiplying 8 HP Regen x 10 Ticks per minute X however many minutes the Troll is not at 100% HP? That is how you do the math. There is no other way around it. Trolls get 4800 HP per hour standing at max per hour, assuming they are not at 100% HP the entire time. That is 3-4 Torpors per hour, meaning you save 2 minutes per hour. That is 2 minutes per hour soloing, 2 minutes per hour grouping, and 2 minues per hour raiding. It doesn't change when you do something different. 2 minutes on a Torpor Shaman just isn't anything useful due to how fast you regenerate https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjZxMlJSCDc . You can keep saying Regeneration helps a Torpor Shaman more, but you are factually incorrect, and the math proves it.

Originally Posted by Crede [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'd bet money that raids have wiped more to one last heal not going off then a shaman not having FSI. You might just kill the mob slightly faster with an ogre because of bash for solo play, but I already admitted that if I wanted to do nothing but solo, I'd be an ogre. So again, I'm not really sure who you're trying to convince here or what you're trying to prove.

Showing the best case scenario for FSI is NOT the same thing as claiming "More raids have wiped due to racial x than to racial y". That could be proved if everyone in the raid had logs going the entire time, for every raid, but I doubt we will ever get that complete data set, or have someone who cares enough to parse it.

The only thing I can do is show you REAL encounters a Shaman experiences, and what the normal outcome is. Based on that, you can determine which racial is benefiting the Shaman more. The answer is FSI. In every video I posted, I am getting Bashed. Not once did I need Troll Regeneration to save me. Not once did I need Snare to save me. That doesn't mean it can never save me, but in a normal situation, FSI is more useful than Troll Regeneration or Snare. In the RARE case where Troll Regeneration or Snare saves you, I can easily argue FSI could have saved you too.

This is why FSI is better.

In the NORMAL situations, like the videos I have made, FSI is doing more for you than Troll Regeneration.

In the RARE situations, where a racial can save your life, that is the same argument you can make for any racial, whether it is FSI, Regen, or Snare Neck.

The thing that really puts the nail in the coffin for snare neck is every Shaman race can get snare clickies, so if Snare can save your life in RARE situations, just get some snare clickies and leave them in your bag for emergencies. I am sure you already have a WC cap and a Reaper ready for such a rare emergency.

[Crede]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I keep saying "Regeneration and Snare wasn't needed" because that is factually correct. I never needed snare to keep the mobs under control, and I was never at a point where Regeneration would have saved my life. You can do the math yourself to confirm this. My point is to show common scenarios Shamans encounter, and how useful a racial is in that scenario. In all the videos I posted, I WAS getting bashed. This means FSI was doing more for me than Regeneration and Snare. It is really that simple, and factually correct. I have video evidence.

I'm not sure why you're claiming that regen/snare are both inferior abilities to FSI because they didn't save your life in the scenarios you provided. All you've shown is that FSI is more effective in soloing a named. We already knew this. You haven't shown me why an ability that only applies when you're tanking surpasses 1.) Regen - which applies in basically 100% of shaman gameplay & 2.) Snare - Which makes your life easier in any situation that FSI applies because you don't have to worry about getting a near impossible to obtain VP weapon or carrying around extra clickies which you could easily blow through in one dungeon session.

Until then, Regen > FSI overall & FSI/snare is a wash.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Crede [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'm not sure why you're claiming that regen/snare are both inferior abilities to FSI because they didn't save your life in the scenarios you provided. All you've shown is that FSI is more effective in soloing a named. We already knew this. You haven't shown me why an ability that only applies when you're tanking surpasses 1.) Regen - which applies in basically 100% of shaman gameplay & 2.) Snare - Which makes your life easier in any situation that FSI applies because you don't have to worry about getting a near impossible to obtain VP weapon or carrying around extra clickies which you could easily blow through in one dungeon session.

Until then, Regen > FSI overall & FSI/snare is a wash.

Sure! I have already demonstrated both of your points in this in the thread previously, but let me try to be a little more succinct in my answer this time. Let me preface a few things here, so we don't get lost on tangents:

1. The debate is which racial is the OVERALL best for a Torpor Shaman.
2. No racials are game changing for Shamans. We are simply determining which racial is the OVERALL best, with the knowledge it doesn't matter most of the time.
3. Trolls are the BEST Shaman race Pre-Torpor. I have said this multiple times already.
4. Some people prefer to Min/Max their characters after they have completed their character, even if that means suffering a bit more during the leveling process. This debate is for those people.
5. If you prefer fashion questing or leveling speed over Min/Max after your character is complete, this debate is not discussing that.

Troll Regeneration (+8 HP Per Tick Standing. Sitting Regeneration is irrelevant, as Torpor Shamans only sit to change spells)

Summary: Troll Regeneration gives you 4800 HP per hour, assuming you are under 100% HP the entire hour. This means a Troll is saving 3-4 Torpors per hour maximum, depending on when the Torpor lands with the server tick. 1200 HP Per Torpor normally, and 1500 HP Per Torpor when timed to the server tick. This equates to 1.5-2 minutes saved of healing yourself per hour (6 second cast time for Torpor, 24 seconds of buff duration).

1. How often is a Torpor Shaman under 100% HP?

- NORMAL SITUATION: Not as much as you would think: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjZxMlJSCDc . This video shows how quickly a Torpor Shaman can get from low HP and Mana to 100% HP and Mana. The video is 3 minutes and 48 seconds long. After that, you stop all regeneration. This is worn, buff, and racial. Torpor Shamans are often at 100% HP. You are also under 100% HP when in combat, if you are taking damage.

- RARE SITUTATION: I have yet to run into this, but theoretically you could be killing more mobs than you should safely. This could mean you are never at 100% HP, as you are constantly moving from one battle to the next without stopping to get your resources back.

2. When is Troll Regeneration useful in Solo and Group situations?

- NORMAL SITUATION: Any time Troll Regeneration was NOT used to save your life, it ONLY saves you time after the battle during the recovery phase. In this example of a long fight: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umuVBewCNgY , my life was never in danger. A Troll would have saved 1600 HP at the end of the fight. This means a Troll would have saved 30 seconds to one minute at best in the recovery phase. 30 seconds if Torporing on a server Tick, 1 minute otherwise, due to having to cast Torpor twice.

- RARE SITUATION: In the rare chance a small amount of HP was the difference between life and death, Troll Regeneration could have saved you here, depending on the HP amount, and the point in the fight this occured. The point in the fight is important, because regeneration takes time to add up. If you would have died within the first 24 seconds of a fight, Troll Regeneration was probably not the savior here, due to how little you regenerated to begin with. If you would have died 5 minutes into the fight, Troll Regeneration might have been the deciding factor for living.

3. When is Troll Regeneration useful in Raid situations?

- NORMAL SITUATION: Troll Regeneration isn't useful at all in buff sessions: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bq39ybDWx-k . In this video, you can see me buffing 10 people, with two Primal Avatars thrown in. The video time is 12 minutes, 45 seconds to go from 100% HP and Mana and back again after buffs. This means a Troll would have saved 1024 HP, or less than 1 Torpor worth of HP. A Troll would have saved 30 seconds of recovery time, which is useless 99% of the time in raids. As a class that always stays in camp, you are waiting at 100% HP and Mana for a good portion of the raid. On top of that, Raids in P99 tend to be Shaman heavy, rather than Shaman light. This means less HP and Mana spent per Shaman. Troll Regeneration is also useless in melee combat in Raids. Shamans have a relatively small max HP pool, and they don't usually get Aegolism. This means any Shaman that gets focused by a raid mob will die in less than a minute. Regeneration will have no affect here, due to how fast and how hard Raid mobs hit.

- RARE SITUATION: In SOME AoE fights, Troll Regeneration is useful for damage mitigation. While most AoE fights are fast, or you can avoid the AoE with Line of Sight, there are a few AoE fights that are long, and the ENTIRE raid must be AoE'd the entire time. In this situation, Troll Regeneration is quite useful, as it can save your life on rare occasions. In rare melee situations, Troll Regeneration could give you an extra second or two, due to being able to survive one more auto attack in melee than a race without regeneration. This could be the difference between raid success and raid wipe, if you were almost finished casting a slow or a heal. However, if you really want to build a character to be the best damage mitigation Shaman out there, Iksar is the better choice. They have regeneration, an AC bonus, better base resistances, and access to Stone of Morid.

Frontal Stun Immunity (Or FSI for short)

Summary: Frontal Stun Immunity means you are immune to the stun component from certain melee attacks, such as bash. This only works when you are in melee combat, and the mob is in front of you. It will NOT work on mobs hitting you from behind.


1. When is Frontal Stun Immunity useful in Solo and Group situations?

- NORMAL SITUATION: If you are not getting hit by a mob, Frontal Stun Immunity is useless. In any normal situation, Frontal Stun Immunity doesn't really matter, since saving fight time and HP still only translates to less recovery time at the end. Any time you are tanking the mob, or get agro from the mob due to high agro spells like Slow, Frontal Stun Immunity is potentially saving you time and HP: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEgFcImQ9XU . In this video in the summary, I have bookmarks for each bash that lands on me during the fight. I save 0-48 seconds of spell interruption, depending on which bashes would have stunned (there is no way to know which ones would have). This saves HP, due to the fight lasting less time, and thus getting hit less. The other nice thing FSI does is it allows you to move more freely in a fight, due to not being forced to stand in one position, waiting for a stun to clear. It also allows you to swing proc weapons like https://wiki.project1999.com/Journeyman's_Walking_Stick more often, due to stuns not preventing auto attacks.

- RARE SITUATION: Frontal Stun Immunity can save your life. If you are pulling a hard mob, and you are getting an unlucky chain of slow resists, landing a slow one cast sooner could be the difference between life and death. If you need to Gate, Frontal Stun Immunity increases your chance of Gate going off. If you need to root a monster to prevent death, less spell interrupts means you can get out of the mobs attack radius faster. If you need to start running immediately, not getting stunned means you have a 1.5 second lead.

2. When is Frontal Stun Immunity useful in Raid situations?

- NORMAL SITUATION: Frontal Stun Immunity is useless in buff sessions, since you are not getting hit. Frontal Stun Immunity IS useful in melee situations. One of a Shaman's primary roles in raiding is Slowing mobs, both bosses and trash. As I said in the Regeneration section, getting focused by a mob means you will die in one minute or less. This means getting off a few slows before you die is critical, even when you are guaranteed to die. Not getting stunned also means you can swing https://wiki.project1999.com/Di%60zok_Oracle_Shillelagh more times in the fight before you die, due to not having to wait for stun to finish to resume auto attacking.

- RARE SITUATION: If raid boss summons you, you will die in less than 6 seconds. If you had auto-attack on with https://wiki.project1999.com/Di%60zok_Oracle_Shillelagh , you could get a swing in before you die, and proc the weapon. That could be the difference between a raid wipe and a not raid wipe, due to a slow landing ASAP.

Snaring as a Shaman (Regent Symbol of Innoruuk, and Snaring in general on a Shaman)

Summary: https://wiki.project1999.com/Regent_Symbol_of_Innoruuk allows Troll Shamans specifically to cast Clinging Darkness indefinitely. The item has a 6 second cast time. There are other items a non Troll Shaman can acquire to snare: https://wiki.project1999.com/Ball_of_Burlap_Yarn , https://wiki.project1999.com/Scepter_of_the_Forlorn , and https://wiki.project1999.com/Spear_of_Constriction .

- NORMAL SITUATION: Snares are generally useless on a Shaman, due to the strategies they employ, and the encounters they prefer to fight. Clinging Darkness specifically is even more useless on a Shaman, due to it being the worst snare in the game, with a 6 tick duration. Here are two videos showing Clinging Darkness in action as a Shaman: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUYSN1sN9z8 and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4qGq5PZbMXc . Root is more than capable of CCing most mobs effectively most of the time, even when they are running, or casters. Here is a video of a Shaman resisting most spells or using LoS to control casters: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kYEDUOoKU4 . By the time the casters hit 20% HP, they are out of mana anyway. Here is a video of a Shaman controlling 5 monsters with just roots: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1gdAIheodtY . There just aren't a lot of situations or camps where Snare does anything significant a root could not do. This is especially true due to Clinging Darkness being the worst snare in the game.

- RARE SITUATION: If you absolutely need a caster to stop casting spells at 20%, Snare will hold or slow the mob, preventing casting. This is uncommon, however, because you would need to be in control of the caster for the first 80% of their HP. This means you are either resisting or using Line of Sight. Complete Heal starts at 40%, so you would need to be able to get the mob to 20% to start running anyway for snare to be effective. For Gate mobs, you can fight them on their spawn point. If a camp exists where mobs are extremely close to each other, and even a bit of running will agro mobs, Snare is good when combined with Root. If root breaks, the snare should be able to hold the mob in place until you re-root. This situation is quite rare, however, due to the mechanics of root breaking. If a mob can be consistently rooted due to not having high resists, it will not have heavy root breaks most of the time. A Shaman who is paying attention can re-root a mob in less than 2 seconds, which is almost always enough time. If a mob has high resistances, causing roots to be resisted and break often, then snares are also going to be resisted quite a bit. This means Snare/Root overlap is less likely, especially with Clinging Darkness's 6 tick duration, and Regent Symbol of Innoruuk's 6 second cast time. In the unlikely event snare is needed, https://wiki.project1999.com/Ball_of_Burlap_Yarn and https://wiki.project1999.com/Scepter_of_the_Forlorn are more than adequate. I have two Balls of Burlap Yarn in my bag, and a Scepter. I have yet to use them at ALL for an emergency situation. I have only used the scepter for the videos I posted showing the efficacy of Clinging Darnkess. You just don't really need an infinite clicky, due to the rarity of the necessity of snare. For any Shamans that really want infinite snare, https://wiki.project1999.com/Spear_of_Constriction is available, and it is the best snare in the game a Shaman can get.

Final Thoughts (TLDR)

Troll Regeneration in Solo/Group Situations:
- NORMAL SITUATION: Useless
- RARE SITUATION: Might save your life

Troll Regeneration in Raid Situations:
- NORMAL SITUATION: Useless in Buff sessions and Melee
- RARE SITUATION: Might save your life, might allow you to get an additional slow off. However, Iksars are better at this overall, if your goal is to be the best damage mitigation Shaman out there in Raids

Frontal Stun Immunity in Solo/Group Situations:
- NORMAL SITUATION: Might save time during a fight
- RARE SITUATION: Might save your life

Frontal Stun Immunity in Raid Situations:
- NORMAL SITUATION: Useless in Buff sessions, Can be useful in Melee to get an additional slow off
- RARE SITUATION: Might allow you to get an additional Slow off

Snare on a Shaman:
- NORMAL SITUATION: Useless
- RARE SITUATION: Might save your life, but not exclusive to Trolls.

As you can see, Frontal Stun Immunity has less "Useless" situations overall, and is thus superior. On top of that, one of the situations in which Troll Regeneration IS useful, Iksars are better anyway. Snare is a wash, due to the rarity of usage, and the ability for other races to get it for emergencies.

[Jimjam]

You've defended your thesis admirably, and I award you a PhD* in Shaman Shenanigans.

*Pixel hording dweller

[Naethyn]

Ogre = Best raiding/RP shaman (tunare ogre wall, ogre speech)
Iksar = Best fashion/starting area shaman (boot buckles, kunark)
Barbarian = Best use of items/non kos shaman (blind, goodguys)
Troll = Best hardcore shaman (pyrocat)

solved.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Jimjam [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You've defended your thesis admirably, and I award you a PhD* in Shaman Shenanigans.

*Pixel hording dweller

Lol thanks! I like it, quite clever.

Originally Posted by Naethyn [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Ogre = Best raiding/RP shaman (tunare ogre wall, ogre speech)
Iksar = Best fashion/starting area shaman (boot buckles, kunark)
Barbarian = Best use of items/non kos shaman (blind, goodguys)
Troll = Best hardcore shaman (pyrocat)

solved.

I always forget the Orge wall. Great summary again. Good point about being a "hardcore Shaman" too! For those rare individuals who want to play a character that has never died.