Ogre is a Noob Trap

[Gustoo]

The poster who said int doesn’t matter for SK doesn’t know about SKs which are merely shit warriors when they are OOM. Mana pool matters for SK

[Toxigen]

Originally Posted by Gustoo [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The poster who said int doesn’t matter for SK doesn’t know about SKs which are merely shit warriors when they are OOM. Mana pool matters for SK

Nah. Flowing Thought matters for SKs.

[Lampolo]

You develope a character for 3 years around the idea of min/max for velious raids and then you realize everything is zerged and you could probly do it naked

[Gustoo]

Correct.

The race you pick on non pvp should be the race you wanna be in your heart / half role play thing

For pvp it kinda matters when your fat sk at level 15 just stomps shorties and elf’s because hitting for max every swing.

[Snaggles]

Originally Posted by Gustoo [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The stats you will max with velious no matter what as you say if you BIS

Yea IF BiS. Most people aren’t BiS. Even casual elf raiders will struggle to max stamina with quality HP optimized gear and riotous health.

Here is a SK with tanking gear. DE and Ogre.

https://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blue:TestKnight

https://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blue:TestKnight2

My 70sta paladin is a casual raider and has 214 STA with a rocksmasher and a number of upgrades from these magelos. Far from BiS though.

Attack is really important (unless you dont parse and don’t care) and the difference between these two is basically innate CoTP while running around. It’s not quite as bad raid buffed since the ogre overcapps but is still far ahead of the DE.

Note: It still doesn’t matter in the end. It’s just a measurable difference (just like mana of DE vs ogre) if you don’t plan to have city leader or high end ToV loot. Plenty of crappy players with BiS gear though so it’s not a measure of your ability to accomplish anything (skill > all).

[Gustoo]

Yep. I agree completely.

For the classes that an ogre and a troll can be they are the best picks if you’re happy being a fatty.

I used to be a ogre guy but now I favor the troll regen, despite bad INT on an SK

[greatdane]

Originally Posted by magnetaress [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

ppl who are PRO ogre are so die hard ogre it borders on a personality disorder.

People keep saying shit like this, yet all of these discussions stem from someone going "ogre actually sucks, you guys are retarded for thinking it's good!" Nobody is making threads titled 'actually ogre is superior to all and anyone who isn't playing an ogre is dumb!' However, people routinely find the need to make threads talking about how overrated ogres are. The discussions always start there, not from the pro-ogre side.

It's the anti-ogre brigade that has an unhealthy obsession with cramming their view down everyone's throats. The "pro-ogre" players just point out how demonstrably incorrect it is that ogres suck, and are subsequently labeled fanatics by irrational people like you. Of the two "factions," for lack of a better term, the pro-ogre ones are by far the more level-headed and sensible. The anti-ogre crowd are the ones who are hysterically hostile.

Anti-ogre people: "ogres SUCK and you're literally idiots if you can't see it."

Pro-ogre people: "that's not true, ogres are quite good."

You: "PRO-OGRE PEOPLE HAVE A PERSONALITY DISORDER! LOOK HOW FANATICALLY OBSESSED THEY ARE!!!"

Can't you see how utterly absurd your statement is? It's the literal exact opposite of the truth. Like it isn't possible to be any more wrong than you are.

[greatdane]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Nobody is actually die hard pro Ogre. People simply state the facts that the big races are better statistically and have better racials.

Everquest, before any expansion, was designed around the idea that faction and inconvenience of travel would balance out Ogre/Troll superior stats and racials. Even though Ogres/Trolls clearly have the advantage, they are hated in a lot of places, which means it would be hard to buy/sell supplies like bandages. To brand new players who didn't know much about the game, this did indeed balance Ogres/Trolls out to a large degree. A Human with access to bandages in basically every other zone would be able to get back in the fight faster than even a Troll, and you could have a Magician friend who could summon them instead.

But every expansion basically chipped away at these constraints, because people complained (I assume). Both Kunark and Velious don't really have specific faction that is deterimental to Ogres/Trolls specifically, so everybody has an equal playing field in that sense. With Druids and Wizards being higher level when the expansions came out, travel became less of an issue too. So the only thing that remained is the superior stats and racials. That is why Ogres/Trolls are the best in P99, because faction and travel are trivialized, so Ogres/Trolls aren't constrained by the very things that were meant to balance them out.

I haven't seen anybody on these forums force people to be any race. New players ask questions about races, and they get answers as to which races are objectively better. I don't see anybody saying that Ogres/Trolls are so vastly superior it is impossible to make another choice, either. Give players the facts, and let them decide what they want to play. It's that simple.

While the disparity in stats probably does come in part from the notion that ogres and trolls were meant to be harder to play, it's mostly a product of the fact that Brad McQuaid copied the races wholesale from another game called SojournMUD but didn't manage to make the stats work the same way as they do in EQ. In that game, agility had a huge impact on armor class, like in AD&D, so an agile elf had considerably more avoidance than an ogre. Dexterity also increased chances of additional attacks, so it had a significant impact on melee DPS. There also wasn't any such thing as Complete Heal in that game, and damage/healing was generally more granular and measured, so maximizing HP wasn't such a big concern. Imagine if every 50 points of agility affected AC as much as going from 74 to 75 does. That's how it was in that game. Coupled with the lack of any stat caps, it made race choice matter way more and your race determined what type of content you should be tanking.

On that MUD, the most popular tank races were wood elf for their extreme agility, and barbarian and troll for their good balance of constitution and agility. You can see the exact same thing reflected in EQ's races, except agility doesn't really matter. On Sojourn, Ogres were niche utility tanks whose main purpose was to be unbashable by most enemies due to their large size, and able to themselves bash enemies that no other race could. Since strength governed crit chance, and certain weapons had powerful procs on crit, that was another role of ogre warriors. They were never the go-to main tanks for general content, however. They had shit AC.

Then Everquest copied the stat lineups of the races but failed to make AGI/DEX matter, and made it so that your HP pool was hugely important due to the existence of CH and raid bosses that could potentially one-shot a tank. But the actual stats of the races are just copied wholesale from another game where Brad McQuaid pretty much plagiarized most of Everquest from. He just didn't manage to adequately convert the stat effects from AD&D-style combat to Everquest's engine.

In other words, ogres are so good in EQ because:

1) Agility is nearly worthless due to laughably miniscule returns after the 75 breakpoint.
2) You can eventually cap out your stats regardless, and ogres have a strong innate ability irrespective of stats.
3) Maximum hit points matters way more in EQ than in AD&D-based games that came before it.

[drackgon]

Originally Posted by Gustoo [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Yep. I agree completely.

For the classes that an ogre and a troll can be they are the best picks if you’re happy being a fatty.

I used to be a ogre guy but now I favor the troll regen, despite bad INT on an SK

Regen and less XP(but you probablly make up that xp loss bc of said regen allowing you to kill more) vs Orge little more int and FSI imo its 50/50. both are solid choices. Totally early green 2.0

But DE with higher int, and can pot bound themselves for free imo if your going to design your toon for end game velious. And saves you from having to farm DE mask for the big boys.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Great posts Greatdane!