Why is Rog hide same as invis/ivu?

[4WOFURY]

I noticed in the July 2013 patch that Rog hide was made to be the same as invis/ivu. I'm not sure why though? When I started on p99 in 12/12, rogue hide was as I remembered it; better than invis where only select mobs could see through it, not just everything that saw invis.

This makes rogue hide pointless, and even worse than someone who has invis/ivu cast on them, as it has a snare effect.

I don't see any patch notes where hide was nerfed on the classic time line, or made better, and I remember at least during the Kunark/Velious era sneaking all the way through SolB to Nagafen's door; past kobolds and LDCs (though Nagafen did see through hide, and upon being spotted, made for a fun run out of the lair so I didn't die! Giants were usually down and farmed for their loot)

I have no "proof" like a patch note saying it was made better, because it was never bad to begin with. Only thing I see is on http://everquest.allakhazam.com/wiki/EQ:Rogue which states :

Additionally, mobs that would normally see a character using a spell or potion are much less likely to see a sneak/hidden rogue.

Allakhazam even notates which mobs see invis, and which go further and see hide; as did the p99 wiki.

This does appear to have been written during the PoP era, though it mentions Shroud of Stealth making hide even more powerful, not that hide was the same as regular invis before hand, and again, I have not been able to find any patch notes notating it had been improved/degraded from a previous state.


Also, I have not yet reached level 60, though in talking to some other rogues I see that the snare effect of sneak is still somewhat noticable even at that level. My remembrance of classic was that the snare was removed, and you could run freely even while sneaking. Again, this was written during PoP era, but it specifically mentions level 60:

At level 51, you begin to speed up (gradually with each level) to an unnoticable difference at level 60.

I'm open to being shown I'm wrong, but otherwise, I don't understand why the hide nerf and sneak-speed reduction at 60 are in place.

Thanks

[4WOFURY]

At www.thesafehouse.org, and written on March 31, 2000:

List of Creatures That Can See Through Hide
Dragons (Vox and Nagafen)
Fire Giants
Scorn Banshees
Lichs
Loathing Lichs
Evil Eyes
Huge Elemental (Lower Guk)

[Supaskillz]

I actually remember it being ivu+invis, but I both suck at finding evidence and am too lazy to try.

I know for certain in doing CRs in seb I had to carefully follow pathers at times and at times poorly placed see invis mobs made it impossible and we had to use a necro. That obviously doesn't prove that see invis mobs all see rogues, but it at least suggests to me it was OP on this server for a time.

[Supaskillz]

Also one of your quoted evidence is way out of time frame for this server. That link shows races that don't exist yet as options for rogues in that rogue guide. I didn't play past velious on live so I have little info on what changed and when, but at the very least that link is not good evidence.

Sneak is near full speed at lvl 60, ~90% full speed. There is a big jump from 59 to 60 in speed. Unsure if this is accurate, but I imagine it is hard to find reliable evidence on something so subjective as how much slower/faster.

[4WOFURY]

Allakhazam link is evidence that hide > invis/ivu, excluding there being any patch post-Luclin stating an upgrade.

As stated, that was written during PoP era with mention of SoS even further improving hide (I used to camp out with Naggy, we were pals after SoS), mention of Vah Shir (Luclin), etc. PoP was only two expansions after Velious, and not a lot of time between the two for a major change like that to Hide without there being a patch note.

[4WOFURY]

Thank you for taking the time to view the link, however.

[Teako]

Played rogue through classic.. Not going to dig up citing, but I remember sneak/hiding down through LGuk to get my guise.. The gargoyles DEFINITELY saw hide, but no frog at all did; live or dead. Not even Frenzy/King/Ass/Sup/Magi - Although I do think the Magi's pet could see through it, peculiar enough.

I do also remember sneak/hide crawling to King camp in Seb a few times.. Never once was in danger of threat unless I somehow got completely fumbled and lost, and walked into Protector.. Juggs didn't see hide, but Prot definitely did.. and I remember doing that CR a few times.. ugh. painful memories.

Seem to recall borderline everything not seeing it, and very select named mobs catching you through it.. Signature-esque named mobs, pets, and Evil Eyes were about all that would catch you.

Here.. Shit, you're better off just not sneak/hiding.

(P.S. - I quit a month into Luclin.. Most of my gaming was server-relative time frame)

[Cecily]

There's no question it's wrong. Plane of Hate being the prime example. Loathing Lichs and Scorn Banshees are the only things in Hate, excluding raid encounters, which should see rogues. Lichs still don't see us, btw, and the revs / spites absolutely should not. I can't even recommend that rogues quest their Book of Souls solo on P99, and from me that's saying alot.

[Ravager]

Originally Posted by Cecily [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

There's no question it's wrong. Plane of Hate being the prime example. Loathing Lichs and Scorn Banshees are the only things in Hate, excluding raid encounters, which should see rogues. Lichs still don't see us, btw, and the revs / spites absolutely should not. I can't even recommend that rogues quest their Book of Souls solo on P99, and from me that's saying alot.

On live, unguilded, green and not knowing a damn thing about what I was doing I bought a port to Hate and had no problems sneaking up and getting my book. After the nerf on this server, I won't try it without a raid, but mostly because I'm too cheap to recharge my cap if it looks like I'm not going to make it. You don't make a lot of plat only leveling alts.

[SyanideGas]

Originally Posted by Cecily [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

There's no question it's wrong. Plane of Hate being the prime example. Loathing Lichs and Scorn Banshees are the only things in Hate, excluding raid encounters, which should see rogues. Lichs still don't see us, btw, and the revs / spites absolutely should not. I can't even recommend that rogues quest their Book of Souls solo on P99, and from me that's saying alot.

I could have swore lich's could see through my hide a couple weeks ago, spites ive noticed for sure which is awk.