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  #191  
Old 05-16-2022, 09:27 AM
Ennewi Ennewi is offline
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Originally Posted by socialist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
I've never actually agreed with the notion that the bard is a jack-of-all-trades. I mean, that particular phrase was used by the developers themselves to describe the class, and printed in the manual and shit, which is why it lives on to this day; but if we look at the actual jobs that a bard can do, they're not particularly versatile.
I get why people have this perspective, but ultimately I think the original box description fits.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_o...master_of_none

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The original version "a jack of all trades" is often a compliment for a person who is good at fixing and has a very good broad knowledge. They may be a master of integration, as such an individual who knows enough from many learned trades and skills to be able to bring the individual's disciplines together in a practical manner. This person is a generalist rather than a specialist.
It's an int caster that can wear chain/plate, benefits from sta 4 to 1 by comparison, isn't dependent on mana (with few exceptions), can move around while casting, has a defensive discipline, and isn't reliant on weapons but can eventually shift into melee attack role at higher levels thanks to groupwide procs. Its version of the wand/staff actually enhances its version of spells and it has multiple, one for each type of magic; granted, only two are tremendously useful. Every "spell" is a three second cast and the class gets at least one per level unlike other casters.

Borrows a little from all over the class list. Safe fall (mnk, rog) helps prevent a lot of inadvertent runspeed damage before travelsong. Forage, track (dru/rng) and pick lock, sneak, hide (rogue). Separately none of it stands out, esp at the skill cap, but together all of it equates to a general convenience/QOL feature.

Can't bind, gate, or port, but it has the fastest movement speed to compensate, turning West Karana into a leisurely jaunt.

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Originally Posted by socialist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
A bard can't tank,
Not ideal, but group tanking is possible depending on the level/zone, esp since bards have slow on demand. Equip a shield and lute of the howler, deftdance if/whenever possible, and hold on for dear life.

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heal
True, but the regen put out is fungi+ depending on lute/level. And shield of song complements canni, allowing shamans to put out heals more readily.

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Originally Posted by socialist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
or DPS.
Bard charm can put out respectable damage, esp if there are rogue mobs in zone, and it costs no mana until higher levels (insta killing an NPC's pet via charm counts towards bard DPS imo). With a decent drum, dot damage isn't a terrible alternative either for smaller groups, esp with other dot classes present. Is it ideal? No, but ideal isn't required to fill a role because, from those who are LFG, choices are limited.

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Originally Posted by socialist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
It's basically a puller and CC class, with some buffing and mana sustain thrown in. If we look at it in terms of actual group roles, there's only a few classes that can fill more than one to any meaningful extent, and bard certainly isn't among them.
Bards can assist in preventative ways, spamming mez to interrupt casters, highsun/PBAE fear to buy time for evac. They can also assist with CRs using any combination of sneak, bind sight, and other songs, the most obvious being locate corpse.

Jack-of-all-trades might not be a perfect description, but how else could they be described? While technically INT casters, they aren't dependent on mana, who can move around while casting (assuming the INT caster doesn't return to the original loc to finish channeling). At higher levels they can once again do decent melee damage, having every excuse to downshift into that role thanks to groupwide procs and epic modifier.

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To gauge the versatility of a class, take any given group with one of that class in it already and then add another member of the same class who has to take up a different role. How happy are you with that? In the bard's case, nobody in their right mind would ever want two of them in the same group.
It could be made to work. Excluding SS helm clicks, one bard pulls using charm/highsun liberally, the other bard covers the usual lineup of beneficial songs while remaining in camp. Or one bard could maintain charm. In lower level groups, one bard could weave in AE mez on incoming while the other chain pulled; at those levels either of the two could also stand in as tank.

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The versatility of bards is generally overrated. They have a lot of different types of abilities, but the vast majority of them are pointless garbage that never gets used.
Bards are versatile but their extra abilities rarely ever get used by players who mostly swarmed to max level.

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When you get right down to it, there's really just a handful of bard songs that are ever called for in a typical grouping environment. Haste, mana regen, Selo if outdoors, lull if pulling, mez in exp groups, resist songs in raids, and I guess slow if there's no other slower. That's 98% of what a bard exists for, and they don't have the kind of versatility where you could have two of them in a group and feel fine about it.
Charm and AE snare/slow are two of the more important song types. Charm preoccupies two mobs instead of mez's one and it lowers their health/mana in the process. AE snare/slow is great when used in tandem with enchanter mez; if anything resists/breaks early, it won't catch the enchanter and even if it does, it won't do multiple rounds of damage...more often than not it will be slow-motion chasing the bard instead. Other class slows will prevent its application, but the aggro generated should still redirect targets from enchanter to bard. Resist songs in group, not just raids, prevent a lot of potential damage while pulling/on incoming on top of adding a damage shield. Dex from chant of battle with drum helps warrior proc more, so if haste is already covered by another class, there's a decent alternative to use and it's the very first song on the list.

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Having a long list of ability types doesn't mean much if most of them are either weak as piss or serve no particular purpose in ordinary gameplay.
OT hammer costing a single jade? No charming nonsense required, just illusion mask and faction song. Faction song is also good for MQing. Sneak? Access to otherwise uncooperative merchants. Jig of vigor would be in greater demand if endurance use was the same as in classic, but it's still good to have ready for warriors discing depend on raids. March of the Wee is more trouble than it's worth in groups, but it still has its uses elsewhere. Even something like cassindra's elegy has its place and time (tradeskilling). The list goes on.

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Many aspects of the bard class are comparable to a car with two wheels--technically it's better than a card with no wheels, but it's still not a usable car.
A motorcycle would be a good description of the bard class in this case.

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Having dual wield but no double attack means your melee output is irrelevant,
Yeah but through melee attacks the bard gains access to certain procs that benefit the damage output of group members who likely do have double attack. That's pretty relevant.

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Originally Posted by socialist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
having plate armor with garbage hit points and defensive skillcaps means you're not really tanky, etc.
Still tankier than the traditional purecaster though.
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  #192  
Old 05-16-2022, 09:57 AM
Cen Cen is offline
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bard single target DPS when three-chanting is often overlooked. it's above average without the epic and with it's very high
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  #193  
Old 05-16-2022, 05:33 PM
Ennewi Ennewi is offline
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bard single target DPS when three-chanting is often overlooked. it's above average without the epic and with it's very high
Yep, I haven't been able to test this out thoroughly at max level/with epic yet, but others have reported 60+ dps from percussion dots alone and having been capable tanks in zones like the hole, seb, and skyfire, not excluding guardian wurms.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...d.php?t=198946

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Originally Posted by Cherry23
Bards can not mezz or charm high end content, their haste and slow is not as good as a shaman or enchanter which almost evey high end group has one of... You can't use run speed indoors...

They have pulling ability and mana regen. Not much else. They are as bad as rangers at high end but fun when levelling
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Originally Posted by falkun

With Ervaj's line, non-epic bards now have better haste than shaman (55 vs 50%). Also, epic'd bards have had better haste than shaman since Kunark (60%, 70% with ervaj). You could also argue their pulling ability is not as good as a monk's yet that's not strictly true either. And as Astuce pointed out, bard song DPS is respectable. Bard slow is also the single best snare in the game.

We also have unparalleled resist buffs, an unresistable debuff, group-wide DA, we've had eyeball pulling since Kunark (lol @ holgresh camp), among many other tools in our toolbox. Bards are still quite valuable in almost every raid composition: DS/epic proc for tank+spank, resists for resist fights, melee buffs for burn fights, mana batteries for endurance fights, etc.

If you think bard's are one-trick ponies, you do not understand the class.
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  #194  
Old 05-18-2022, 04:28 AM
TomisFeline TomisFeline is offline
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when this thread was started i never expected to see someone trying to argue bards were at the bottom. same for druids (though underpowered, their versatility definitely prevents them from being the most UP)

wiz takes my vote unfortunately
would be mage, but their sdps and peripheral utility to others keeps them out of the bottom.

hard to argue that, if rogbog offered to non classically buff a single class, that it shouldn't be a wizard
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  #195  
Old 05-18-2022, 09:25 AM
PlsNoBan PlsNoBan is offline
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Originally Posted by TomisFeline [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
when this thread was started i never expected to see someone trying to argue bards were at the bottom. same for druids (though underpowered, their versatility definitely prevents them from being the most UP)

wiz takes my vote unfortunately
would be mage, but their sdps and peripheral utility to others keeps them out of the bottom.

hard to argue that, if rogbog offered to non classically buff a single class, that it shouldn't be a wizard
Wizard is great for raiding just doesn't have the sustain to be effective in groups. Druid is just "meh" at everything. If you ignore the PL capability and ports. What does anyone actually want a druid for? Worst of the healers by far with weak sustained dps and little utility. Snare and a couple buffs I guess? Mage has equivalent DS. Cleric has equal/better HP buffs. Multiple classes have SoW. Shamans have regen/str.

I've played EQ since beta. Not once have I been in a situation (outside of wanting a port or PL) where I was like "Man I wish we had a druid"
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  #196  
Old 05-18-2022, 07:56 PM
socialist socialist is offline
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Originally Posted by Ennewi [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
Yep, I haven't been able to test this out thoroughly at max level/with epic yet, but others have reported 60+ dps from percussion dots alone and having been capable tanks in zones like the hole, seb, and skyfire, not excluding guardian wurms.
Eh. Chants will tick for 56ish each w/epic, which is something like 30 DPS if you maintain three of them. That's if you can maintain them all, because while they do apply a resistance debuff, it's not exactly huge and plenty of things in the endgame will be immune to one or more of magic, fire and cold. Add the shitty melee on top and it might amount to 50 DPS. No, bards do not do real DPS. It's marginally higher than a paladin, and that's if the bard is doing nothing other than DPS, which is not a scenario that ever actually happens in reality. Ask a level 60 bard how big a percentage of his time is spent in DPS mode. He'll probably chuckle at you and recite a dirty limerick.

As far as tanking goes, bards are on par with rogues. They get marginally higher HP and they can wear plate, but their parry and dodge skills cap significantly lower, so it's about equal. If you take a fully ToV-geared bard to tank the Hole, I'm sure it'll probably be fine. Under real-life conditions, it's not a thing. A ToV-geared cleric could probably tank leveling content with a slower. Shamans tank guardian wurms all day and they don't even have any real defensive skills. This is not a measure of viability in conventional gameplay settings.

Maybe you can come up with some fantastical scenario where there's a group in which the bard is forced to be the tank, and then it's probably better than having the fucking wizard do it. But in reality, it's not a thing that happens with any sort of regularity, and it certainly isn't good. Bards are certainly useful in the one role that they inhabit, but they don't have the kind of versatility that lets them fill more than one role. They're pullers with mild CC and haste/resists/manasong. Stop pretending they're also DPS and tanks.

When was the last time you had a bard in your group and then invited another one, when it wasn't the only option available? Yeah? Yeah.
Last edited by socialist; 05-18-2022 at 08:08 PM..
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  #197  
Old 05-19-2022, 01:08 AM
branamil branamil is offline
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Literally no one has called bard's a "one trick pony" in like 20 years. It's funny when people are pretending their some wizened prophet when they're just like "diD you kNow bards cAn MeZ and Haste????"

It's not like they're going to do ALL of those things in every group. The average XP group is so mind numbing that it's not worth it to give yourself carpal tunnel to squeeze an extra 1.5% xp per hour.
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  #198  
Old 05-19-2022, 06:09 AM
Ennewi Ennewi is offline
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Eh. Chants will tick for 56ish each w/epic, which is something like 30 DPS if you maintain three of them. That's if you can maintain them all, because while they do apply a resistance debuff, it's not exactly huge and plenty of things in the endgame will be immune to one or more of magic, fire and cold. Add the shitty melee on top and it might amount to 50 DPS.
https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...ad.php?t=54582

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Old 11-15-2011, 07:41 PM
Lazortag Lazortag is offline
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At level 60 assuming the tank has perfect aggro I can do about 68 DPS once my best dots have landed. In reality though if you're casting Angstlich's Assonance, Denon's Bereavement and Selo's Chords of Cessation on the same mob you're likely to pull aggro pretty quickly.
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Originally Posted by socialist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
No, bards do not do real DPS.
That wasn't the argument being made. Bards aren't real CC either. Compared to other classes they aren't really anything, which is why there isn't a place for them in the class discussion section of these forums; they're lumped in with the melee classes for lack of a better choice, because they're a little bit of everything rolled into one. That was the argument. They're a jack of all trades. And, by definition, a jack of all trades wouldn't be capable of upper case DPS.

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It's marginally higher than a paladin, and that's if the bard is doing nothing other than DPS, which is not a scenario that ever actually happens in reality.
But it likely has happened over the years and, more to the point, it could happen. If it can be done, that means there's versatility. A warrior can remain at the low health threshold for berserker frenzy damage. Will their damage be equal to the hasted enchanter pet? No, but it is an option if another tank is present. A necromancer can be the sole healer in a group. Will their heals be as powerful as a torp shaman's? No, but it is an option if no priests are available.

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Originally Posted by socialist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
Ask a level 60 bard how big a percentage of his time is spent in DPS mode. He'll probably chuckle at you and recite a dirty limerick.
Again, it isn't a matter of how often it's done but whether or not it's an option. Besides, there are other less direct ways bards can contribute towards DPS. Charming one of two shadow knight mobs so both harm touch each other is an example of the creative DPS bards are capable of. Adding to their damage versatility...

https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...d.php?t=390809

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08-30-2021, 01:51 PM
Naethyn Naethyn is offline
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I’ve been fighting for damage shields for a long time. My biggest gripe is on raids with cleric groups demanding every available bard, instead of giving one bard to the tank group. Here is some rough math I’ve come up with to prove how little bards do for clerics in a dragon fight. For things unslowable it’s not even close, the bard will do 3 rogues of dps.

Bard produces 20 mana a tick.
20 mana a tick = 200 mana per minute
Complete heal = 350 mana
17.5 bard ticks = 1 Complete Heal
10 minute fight = 2000 mana
5 complete heals
7 minutes = 1,400 mana
1,400 mana / 350 = 4 CH
5 clerics * 4 CH = 20 CH per 7 minutes

Bard produces 61 damage shield.
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As far as tanking goes, bards are on par with rogues. They get marginally higher HP and they can wear plate, but their parry and dodge skills cap significantly lower, so it's about equal. If you take a fully ToV-geared bard to tank the Hole, I'm sure it'll probably be fine.
The quote from the first reply came from a bard tanking before SoV's release, without any of the 100 raw hp gear from this expansion.

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Maybe you can come up with some fantastical scenario where there's a group in which the bard is forced to be the tank, and then it's probably better than having the fucking wizard do it. But in reality, it's not a thing that happens with any sort of regularity, and it certainly isn't good.
https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...=134988&page=2

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Old 01-13-2014, 05:49 PM
Laok Laok is offline
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I like to think I'm pretty good at Bard. I played one on live for almost 10 years and got him to level 85. I played pre /melody and post. /melody was nice, but as was stated earlier, made bards easymode. There was a large influx of PL'ed bard alts that weren't very skilled and it got to be difficult to get a group because nobody wanted a dumpster bard.

...

I was tanking in CoM in my 40's with mediocre gear with a Shammy main healer. I have pulled, tanked, CC, snared, slowed, hasted and even main healed (Lots of downtime lol). Try mezzing 2 mobs while keeping agro on a third some time, it's fun in a twisted, massochistic kind of way lol.
https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...d.php?t=232580

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Old 03-24-2016, 11:34 AM
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Bards are literally the best at holding agro with three second single target and AE songs with tons of agro with no global cooldown, no mana cost, and can be used while moving around.

A decent bard can pretty much tank any dungeon, probably as good as or better than your typical stereotype tank. but once you get into a raiding situation the bard tanking situation ends once the deftdance wears off...

This of course applies to people who actually know how to play their bards. the majority that have only swarm kited thier entire lives will have no idea what i am talking about. And that is where the problems lies. Good luck finding a bard that knows how to play a bard.

I have tanked the kith general a few times on my bard, as well as offtanked some HoT trash when it was neccessary. I think that is getting about as far as you can take it.
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Old 03-24-2016, 03:26 PM
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Sadly I agree with one poster that most bards leveled up swarm kiting and don't realize the true potential of their class, when I asked bards to tank groups (even post 50) they are like, "Umm... I'm a bard, I can't tank", to which I immediately face palm.

Bards are a plate class with some low capped defensive abilities, but awesome agro potential. I have seen a bard in the Hole tank, lull pull, song twist, and CC without issue.

Best Bard I've ever been with is Thald, dude seriously knows his class. He is spot on with adds, pulling, song twists, you name it. I recommend you ask him any questions, he probably can give you some serious tips.
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Old 06-10-2016, 12:45 PM
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Bards have reasonable AC but lack a lot on those secondary skills. Dodge caps low. Parry caps extra low at 75 and isn't available until 53. Riposte is achieved even later in the game and caps at 75 also. On top of that, bard hp pools are low compared to warriors and Knights.

Having said that, in good gear they actually tank decently. Aggro lock is simple, and before the mob is even in camp you can have it preslowed by22/23% to 35% depending on your level AND the real slower (if you have one) can slow very early in the fight without taking any hits.

Bards make stellar tanks on more trivial content. On moderate content they can manage without too many problems. In higher end content their defensive weaknesses start to show more obviously ... And on the hardest group able content they really don't hold up that well.


The vast majority of Everquest grouping content is a game of balanced attrition. In those scenarios you potentially save the healer mana with preslows (20-35% is a lot) and fast real slows where aggro doesn't bounce around.
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Originally Posted by socialist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
Bards are certainly useful in the one role that they inhabit, but they don't have the kind of versatility that lets them fill more than one role. They're pullers with mild CC and haste/resists/manasong. Stop pretending they're also DPS and tanks.
The AE snare/slow is reliable CC, much better in emergencies than bard mez/charm. It can derail trains and prevent wipes. The only risk comes from casters, but with everything moving slowly in lockstep, it becomes easier to target and mez/charm casters. The bard can keep mobs corralled, without getting hit, even in cramped rooms like KC basement. So if the enchanter dies, rezzes can go out and the group can remain in camp, picking off the casters and more resistant mobs.

Bards can provide CC or DPS. Bards can also tank. Pulling is probably the role that suits them best though.

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When was the last time you had a bard in your group and then invited another one, when it wasn't the only option available? Yeah? Yeah.
Two bards one group can be done and done well. Misconceptions about the class keep that from happening often. There also aren't a whole lot of bards and not many who would know how to make the best adjustments. I've seen a druid charm a pegasus in sky and get the group raid xp. Just because it doesn't happen often doesn't mean it isn't worth doing. Shadow knights don't typically pull on raids. Might that be because there's an overabundance of monks on the servers? Could SKs pull raid targets? Yes, and that's where their versatility lies beyond being tanks.

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Originally Posted by branamil [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
It's not like they're going to do ALL of those things in every group. The average XP group is so mind numbing that it's not worth it to give yourself carpal tunnel to squeeze an extra 1.5% xp per hour.
The average group is a PUG, with composition changing somewhat regularly. So while all of the abilities might not be used in every group, many of them will be used in one xp session.

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Originally Posted by branamil [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
The average XP group is so mind numbing that it's not worth it to give yourself carpal tunnel to squeeze an extra 1.5% xp per hour.
https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...d.php?t=176915

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Old 01-06-2015, 01:25 PM
zanderklocke zanderklocke is offline
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For me, it wasn't actually pushing keys. It was the mouse moving motion while holding down the right click button without releasing for so long. I dunno why people say twisting causes carpal tunnel; that's just pressing a key every 3 seconds.
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Old 01-06-2015, 01:28 PM
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Twisting shouldn't cause carpal tunnel--the mouse is more likely to do that, as you say. However, excessive button spam can and does cause RSI-related injury instead. Both are issues any long-term player should be aware of.

Danth
Last edited by Ennewi; 05-19-2022 at 06:23 AM..
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  #199  
Old 05-19-2022, 10:22 AM
cd288 cd288 is offline
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Just to add to the replies to socialist, gauging a class's usefulness by whether you'd be happy having two of them in a group is moronic. The only people I'd be happy to have two of in a group is like maybe a Rogue or a Monk and only then when the other important roles are filled, maybe Enchanter if they're both willing to charm pets.

Other than that I don't need two of anything.
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Old 05-19-2022, 10:26 AM
cd288 cd288 is offline
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Originally Posted by socialist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
Eh. Chants will tick for 56ish each w/epic, which is something like 30 DPS if you maintain three of them. That's if you can maintain them all, because while they do apply a resistance debuff, it's not exactly huge and plenty of things in the endgame will be immune to one or more of magic, fire and cold. Add the shitty melee on top and it might amount to 50 DPS. No, bards do not do real DPS. It's marginally higher than a paladin, and that's if the bard is doing nothing other than DPS, which is not a scenario that ever actually happens in reality. Ask a level 60 bard how big a percentage of his time is spent in DPS mode. He'll probably chuckle at you and recite a dirty limerick.

As far as tanking goes, bards are on par with rogues. They get marginally higher HP and they can wear plate, but their parry and dodge skills cap significantly lower, so it's about equal. If you take a fully ToV-geared bard to tank the Hole, I'm sure it'll probably be fine. Under real-life conditions, it's not a thing. A ToV-geared cleric could probably tank leveling content with a slower. Shamans tank guardian wurms all day and they don't even have any real defensive skills. This is not a measure of viability in conventional gameplay settings.

Maybe you can come up with some fantastical scenario where there's a group in which the bard is forced to be the tank, and then it's probably better than having the fucking wizard do it. But in reality, it's not a thing that happens with any sort of regularity, and it certainly isn't good. Bards are certainly useful in the one role that they inhabit, but they don't have the kind of versatility that lets them fill more than one role. They're pullers with mild CC and haste/resists/manasong. Stop pretending they're also DPS and tanks.

When was the last time you had a bard in your group and then invited another one, when it wasn't the only option available? Yeah? Yeah.
I like how in some ways you moved the goalpost to they suck because they can't do a certain role as well as another class of that role, when the whole conversation is around being a jack of all trades master of none
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