When are Enchanters will be nerfed?

[azxten]

Originally Posted by Ennewi [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

from what can be gleaned the original posts suggest that charming giants was common enough practice on vindi...only difference being that here they are used for DPS whereas in classic apparently they were sent in to tank/ramp

Velious is when Enchanters began to charm in a way similar to P99. Also they probably weren't used for DPS because it took dedicated teams of players to control charmed mobs. Enchanters charmed late in classic and charmed Fear mobs but specifically mention the dedicated effort of about 5 people to keep things under control and the Enchanter alive. Like I mention above MR is a big factor that seems to be missing on P99 for these mobs.

there are still a lot of discussions dating back to the early days with enchanters stating flatly that charmed pets were superior to their summoned versions

No, that quote said that your pet won't be as good and the best thing you have is a charmed pet. It didn't say a charmed pet is better.

if the target was not dead and charm broke, some simply advised enchanters to run for the zoneline

Correct and fits with outdoor zones being where Enchanters used charm. There wasn't solo Enchanters in SolA camping kindle at level 30 using charm on live. It was viable outdoors where you could dump bad situations and run speed buffs were a requirement.

And either some of the pet commands weren't working properly at that point or were implemented at a later point in classic.

A lot of pet things weren't working properly. We do know that fine steel dagger to reduce delay was working, and is classic, but is nerfed on P99 whereas Enchanters killing 5 blue mobs at the same time by themselves in a dungeon was not happening.

It seems to have taken a while, but people were figuring out how to use/abuse charm during classic and openly talking about it.

I didn't read too far but it sounds like they are discussing Bard charm which actually worked, they had the run speed buff to use it more than Enchanter did, and was clasically always the more overpowered charm whereas on P99 Bards are told not to charm.

http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/bard_charm.php

Prior to kunark, bards were at minimum the equal of enchanters in charm, and in most situations, better. The bard charm cap is 51 at level 39, 51 at level 50...and still 51 at level 60.

Thott from Afterlife stating Bards were at the MINIMUM equal to Enchanters in charm and in most situations better. Does that sound like P99? He is lamenting the state of Bards being ignored as Charm became more powerful for Enchanter. As I've said, Enchanter was literal garbage in classic and was the most bugged and least played class. All backed by in era posts including a Sony released poll of classes they did to find out who needed to be nerfed. Enchanter was at the bottom of the list and no one played it. It wasn't because they didn't know how CHA worked.

[Ennewi]

Originally Posted by azxten [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Velious is when Enchanters began to charm in a way similar to P99. Also they probably weren't used for DPS because it took dedicated teams of players to control charmed mobs.

[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Quite a few screenshots like the one above, where it can't be proven that the mob was charmed (as it could easily be aggroed onto a player instead), but the angle suggests it may have been attacking the raid target. That isn't to say it was commonplace though and of course better examples would need to be found.

Originally Posted by azxten [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

No, that quote said that your pet won't be as good and the best thing you have is a charmed pet. It didn't say a charmed pet is better.

"You will be able to use your pet effectively possibly up through level 12, but afterwards charm is quite simply the better alternative."


https://web.archive.org/web/20010114...ML/002835.html

TanaElven
unregistered posted November 17, 2000 09:48 AM Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
If the creature is no longer your pet when the killing blow is landed and it did over 50% of the damage the corpse poofs.

This is BS Alandrel. I've spent good deal of my time soloing 34-49 actually and I can tell you for sure that if your charmed pet does most the damage then breaks charm and you kill the mob YOU STILL GET THE EXP. However if by some wierd chance charm breaks JUST as it's delivering the final death blow your mob will poof. Which makes me believe ( no for sure proof) That charmed pets don't count in the exp penalty. And honestly after killing more dorfs then i can count I've tried it both ways doing over 50% or backing pet off and membluring mob to get exp and just letting the mob blow thru each other and the exp seems about the same either way I was averaging about 1 and 1/4 bubs a hour either way killing the same 6 dorfs. So i finally gave up and just let the charmed pet do all the work which lets me kill them using less then 40mana on 6 dorfs.

IP: Logged

Alandrel
Veteran Poster
Posts: 174
Registered: Oct 2000

posted November 17, 2000 10:16 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Alandrel Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
I have charm soloed for over 20 levels. If your ex-pet does over 50% of the damage and is still alive when your target dies the corpses poofs. Always. Unless you blurred or mezzed it and got a blur off the mez.
Not to hard to test this if you really haven't seen it. Just invis, root your ex-pet, and nuke your target. This is assuming you have not blurred or mezzed the target. The corpse will poof and you get 0 exp.

------------------
Alandrel Mesmer


Amantus
unregistered posted November 17, 2000 04:49 PM Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
The only way the creature your killing poofs is if the mob who did most of the damage is alive and NOT charmed at the time of death. A mob can break 10 times and as long as you have it charmed when whatever you are fighting finally goes down you will get the exp.
Amantus


Alandrel
Veteran Poster
Posts: 174
Registered: Oct 2000

posted November 21, 2000 10:26 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Alandrel Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
Yes. But you will miss out on the experience from your ex-pet. The most efficent way I have found to charm solo is as follows.
1. mez/tash/charm pet.
2. send it in.
3. tash/root target.
4. med and monitor health
5. step in and blur/nuke the target so that
you do more then half the damage.
6. pet guard here
7. cancel magic type spell on pet.
8. mez/root. then dd the ex-pet to death.

You will often get 100% of the experience on the first target. This depends on if the blur hit or not. You will always get 100% of the experience on the ex-pet. This means you are getting 150-200% of the possible experience for two critters.

------------------
Alandrel Mesmer

Originally Posted by azxten [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I didn't read too far but it sounds like they are discussing Bard charm which actually worked, they had the run speed buff to use it more than Enchanter did, and was clasically always the more overpowered charm whereas on P99 Bards are told not to charm.

Can't remember being in a group where the bard was instructed not to charm, only complaints if the bard didn't break charm on a moment's notice to kill the charmed mob. However it does make sense, in classic, if bards were using it more regularly than other charm classes given their ability to cast and move around freely, without the interruptions that were associated those that relied on channeling.

Originally Posted by azxten [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Thott from Afterlife stating Bards were at the MINIMUM equal to Enchanters in charm and in most situations better. Does that sound like P99?

Question is, was this before or after the nerf that prevented bards from charming raid targets? When bards were able to charm bosses in sky, not excluding Inte Akera, sure he would have put them in the same league as classic enchanters. And there's a fair amount of evidence to suggest bards were still able to charm targets up to 55 even after the nerf. If that ever gets patched in and there is a new green server, p99 bards might say it sounds like what you described.

Originally Posted by azxten [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

He is lamenting the state of Bards being ignored as Charm became more powerful for Enchanter.

Many seemed to have similar misgivings as the game progressed, one player in particular who earned a direct reply from Geoffrey Zatkin... "Bards are good at Charming, they are not the masters of it. Only Enchanters are the masters of charming."

[PatChapp]

Originally Posted by Zuranthium [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

There are problems in the p99 code (Lull having such low critical resist chance on MOBs near your level is the most unclassic), but Enchanters were always a good solo class and Charm still had powerful usages in 1999.

It was a very underplayed class the first year of the game, and people definitely refined the ability of the class over time, including player improvements in the modern era. Also, VERY importantly - people's internet, computers, monitors, and game settings got better. Having no lag and far more visibility makes a gigantic difference. Voice chat too. There used to be a few bugs related to charming that don't exist now either.

If people during Classic were commonly charming like they are now, it absolutely would have been nerfed by the devs. That's the most important thing to consider. Personally, in addition to balancing the average duration on Enchanter charm at high levels, I don't think charmed NPC's should be able to get extra attacks via dual wield, nor get the benefit of any haste item outside of the Magician summoned mask. That amount of DPS is unfair and it doesn't make sense for non-dual wielding MOBs to suddenly be doing it (or to be wearing a freaking Tolapumj's Robe when it wouldn't even fit them). I also wouldn't let Enchanters charm every type of animal or undead.

I think the channeling rate difference is a little overstated by some people. With max channeling in original EQ you were definitely able to cast through a single MOB very consistently unless getting stunned. With multiple MOBs attacking it should be considerably more difficult (although I definitely got lots of Gates off in those cases), but Enchanters always had fast-casting AOE stuns they could chain.

Tola robe kinda pointless anyway due to haste caps.
Clickie haste + muzzle already 73% haste, close enough to haste capped pet.
Can get to 79% with wonderous but usually not needed

[magnetaress]

no one really dumped haste items on merbs and solo charmed that way either lol

maybe like 1 or two ppl did it once when they where going after a raidd target maybe

and like the above poster said if everyone was doing it the devs would have nerfed it so hard

so pearl clutch and cope and seeth

[azxten]

Originally Posted by Ennewi [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Quite a few screenshots like the one above, where it can't be proven that the mob was charmed (as it could easily be aggroed onto a player instead), but the angle suggests it may have been attacking the raid target. That isn't to say it was commonplace though and of course better examples would need to be found.

That's Kunark, like I said Enchanters charmed in Fear late in classic pre-Kunark with the help of dedicated teams. The power curve for charm gradually gets better over time. The problem is on P99 it starts at max power there is no curve. It should start as unusable not Velious era functionality.

"You will be able to use your pet effectively possibly up through level 12, but afterwards charm is quite simply the better alternative."

Yes, they said charm is better than their pet. Not other pet classes pets.

Question is, was this before or after the nerf that prevented bards from charming raid targets? When bards were able to charm bosses in sky, not excluding Inte Akera, sure he would have put them in the same league as classic enchanters. And there's a fair amount of evidence to suggest bards were still able to charm targets up to 55 even after the nerf. If that ever gets patched in and there is a new green server, p99 bards might say it sounds like what you described.

Bards did that about once or twice it wasn't a widespread thing it was immediately nerfed.

November 17, 2000

Those posts are from almost 6 months after Kunark launch.

Think of it this way...

March 1999 - EQ launches
April 2000 - Kunark released
December 2000 - Velious released

14 months of classic era then 8 months between Kunark and Velious, probably about 10-12 months of that time Charm should be unusable except for outdoor run speed boosted use or in situations where a group or raid is helping the Enchanter manage things. An Enchanter could not control a pet solo in a dungeon without dying more often than not.

Green launch, like I referred to before, had level 30 Enchanters using back stabbing goblin pets in sola soloing kindle area in 1-2 weeks. I know because I was there getting power leveled by them same as it progressed through HHK with Os backstabbing. I barely played the game and these high ZEM (also not classic by the way P99 is about double classic exp rates) Enchanter backstab groups got me to level 50 without even trying.

This isn't classic, at all, and it impacts the server FOREVER. Same as making The Hole a high ZEM zone flooded the market with loam armor that used to be expensive. These unclassic adjustments have an impact that can't be undone. I remember proof in bug report forums that exp rates were 2x too high and shortly after that is when they changed the ZEM zones. Rather than make things classic they just shifted the ZEMs around. Think of all the fine steel, item drops, and experience Enchanters alone bring to a just launched server in their non classic state. It is insane and sets the stage to trivialize Kunark/Velious as people race to get 5 alts on their account to max level.

Like I've said for whatever reason the staff wants people to level faster than is classic and stack up at raid level. That isn't something that can be argued when they increased spawn rates at launch and provided a second instanced server that they announced they intended to merge back into Green once the population spread out. When stuff like that happens you have to accept you're not playing a server that is trying to recreate classic anymore. The high ZEMs, Enchanter nonsense, and channeling are all examples of things that continue to promote non classic rates of leveling and it produces the raid scene you all know and love.

The raid scene on P99 is created by the project decisions which are not driven by a desire to recreate classic. Fast newbie zone spawn rates is not classic and it's not how you should launch a classic server. Anytime you want to believe there is something to debate about Enchanter just remember those spawn rates. Enchanter as it works at launch is not classic and as it plays level 1-50 is not classic either. Sure, halfway into Kunark and 50+ it works well enough. By then it's too late and the server has already severely departed from a global cassic situation in terms of money, items, and experience.

By the way on top of all this, almost every mechanism in classic EQ used to level fast or farm excessively has been nerfed on P99. Mage weapon procs, fine steel delay, Bard AE kiting, AE groups, unresistable lifetaps, certain proc items, etc. Even raid mechanics are severely nerfed. Somehow all of this which is classic has been nerfed away and now everyone sits around and basically gets carried by non classic Enchanters into a non classic raid scene flooded with power leveled newbs. A maddening situation for anyone who actually wants to play classic EQ.

[Jimjam]

The kaladim bone chips xp got nerfed even though research suggested the prenerf xp was the classic amount!

Edit: the newb zones were fast spawn cos they weren’t able to implement the ancient crocodile style linked spawns that newbie yards classically had. The fast spawns was a bodge to emulate that, and would have been a better bodge if the spawn points were slightly randomised.

[Jibartik]

would it be a viable strategy to solo wuoshi by training all the giants in the zone on it?

[azxten]

Originally Posted by Jimjam [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The kaladim bone chips xp got nerfed even though research suggested the prenerf xp was the classic amount!

Edit: the newb zones were fast spawn cos they weren’t able to implement the ancient crocodile style linked spawns that newbie yards classically had. The fast spawns was a bodge to emulate that, and would have been a better bodge if the spawn points were slightly randomised.

If I recall correctly the fast spawns were turned off. If that was a classic move it should be left on. Same with Teal. They started an instanced server to relieve newbie zone pressure when they weren't close to live population numbers.

https://project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=339096

feedback and hesitation we've seen from people who are waiting to play due to the overcrowding

important to consider the affect such a population will have once the majority of players start reaching end game zones

This only made sense if Teal was not merged back. That would have actually been a good commitment to stand up another server that did not merge if they wanted less density. This would have also helped the raid scene by splitting guilds across servers.

The fact is, even at concurrent numbers of 1500 to 2000, it is simply too many players for pre-Kunark.

Looking at responses to that announcement...

Let the economy rampant inflation begin!

A lot of people knew this was a bad idea. They just doubled the drops for legacy items or they had to double the drop times. Just more items flowing in making that Kunark ramp easier and easier.

It's hard to argue that P99 isn't intentionally a non classic easy server at this point. The only thing that isn't easy about it is all the classic mechanics that are intentionally nerfed. It's pretty strange.

[kaev]

Originally Posted by Gustoo [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

It's a combination of the charm break RNG calculation and the super channeling on p99 that make these things work way more easily than they did on live.

In this era it was riskier on live than it is here. It was far from useless tho, the first AoW kill was by a guild that used a big pile of enchanters to charm giant after giant and send them in (prompting the usual nuclear flyswatter "Nerf them, nerf them all!" response from Verant).

Eventually, for certain by the LDoN expansion, charming was as powerful on live as it is here (i.e. manageable enough for a solo Enchanter to crush an LDoN dungeon after getting some random LFG guy to pair up long enough to start the mission). Of course, LDoN is literally years out of scope for this project.

[MaddiusTheMad]

Never. We get some dominant performance areas but we're not anywhere near always the mvp class pick let alone even always a flawless solution to anything and everything. That's for sure.