sk starting points

[rjw513]

OK so int is the min max answer, great…but the right answer to op’s inquiry is str so he shouldn’t admit he’s wrong…no one is “wrong” or “right” and again not sure why you see it as someone has to “win” the debate lol

Everyone except you agrees so maybe you don’t need math or whatever other stats you say are relevant to realize you are closer to “wrong” than anyone else here

You of all people should realize why someone would not want to “admit” being wrong

[Vexenu]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

If we agree that starting stats will not affect your character in a meaningful way

DSM, this is your problem. We don't agree on this, because it's very obviously untrue in the case of STR. This is because STR is literally the only stat in the game that is useful 100% of the time when uncapped, if only for increasing your ability to carry extra gold/plat. You may say that this is useless or at best an edge case, but this is indisputably a benefit that STR provides. Further, STR provides an indisputable benefit on each and every melee attack your character makes, from level 1-60. Literally every single attack is enhanced by extra STR. At the very bare minimum, not having to delete a stack of 1200 gold or being able to carry a few extra FS weapons to vendor is meaningful, because that generates additional plat for the character.

Conversely, the INT stat is only useful to expand the maximum pool of mana available. I agree that this is indisputably a benefit to the character, with the caveat that this benefit will NOT be felt AT ALL for 99.99% of the character's playtime, and will be felt even less the more experienced the player is with the game (since they will know how to avoid situations where having a tiny bit of extra mana made the difference between life and death to begin with). You may claim that having a larger mana pool is more convenient for fear kiting/soloing, but this is simply a matter of opinion, as I can counter-claim (reasonably) that having higher STR for carrying more plat is more convenient. Further, I think that my claim has more merit, since being able to carry more gold/plat provides a tangible benefit over time, while taking a break to AFK med after 28 minutes of kiting vs. 30 minutes is essentially a distinction without a difference.

You seem to be fixated on the idea that INT is worth pumping simply because it is harder to cap, but by this logic you might as well pump CHA instead. It doesn't matter that INT is harder to cap, it matters if INT is useful enough to warrant pumping instead of STR. And in the case of a moderately twinked Iksar SK alt who will likely never level past the mid 50s, much less approach BiS gear, it simply isn't.

[rjw513]

FAX

[Lune]

Originally Posted by Vexenu [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

DSM, this is your problem. We don't agree on this, because it's very obviously untrue in the case of STR. This is because STR is literally the only stat in the game that is useful 100% of the time when uncapped, if only for increasing your ability to carry extra gold/plat. You may say that this is useless or at best an edge case, but this is indisputably a benefit that STR provides. Further, STR provides an indisputable benefit on each and every melee attack your character makes, from level 1-60. Literally every single attack is enhanced by extra STR. At the very bare minimum, not having to delete a stack of 1200 gold or being able to carry a few extra FS weapons to vendor is meaningful, because that generates additional plat for the character.

Conversely, the INT stat is only useful to expand the maximum pool of mana available. I agree that this is indisputably a benefit to the character, with the caveat that this benefit will NOT be felt AT ALL for 99.99% of the character's playtime, and will be felt even less the more experienced the player is with the game (since they will know how to avoid situations where having a tiny bit of extra mana made the difference between life and death to begin with). You may claim that having a larger mana pool is more convenient for fear kiting/soloing, but this is simply a matter of opinion, as I can counter-claim (reasonably) that having higher STR for carrying more plat is more convenient. Further, I think that my claim has more merit, since being able to carry more gold/plat provides a tangible benefit over time, while taking a break to AFK med after 28 minutes of kiting vs. 30 minutes is essentially a distinction without a difference.

You seem to be fixated on the idea that INT is worth pumping simply because it is harder to cap, but by this logic you might as well pump CHA instead. It doesn't matter that INT is harder to cap, it matters if INT is useful enough to warrant pumping instead of STR. And in the case of a moderately twinked Iksar SK alt who will likely never level past the mid 50s, much less approach BiS gear, it simply isn't.

All pretty logically sound points made on like page 2 that just bounced off DSM's thick skull

[DeathsSilkyMist]

A whole lot of random opinions and insults. Nobody has shown that the STR is giving enough DPS to matter. Therefore it remains unfounded opinions.

That is your guys problem. Lots of assumtions and insults lol.

[Jimjam]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The issue with your logic here is you are completely missing how statistics work.

statistics can prove anything - I think you are so focused on statistics you are overlooking practical reality.

Nobody in this thread has denied that you can cap one stat over another with certain combinations of gear. I do not deny it either.

The only thing that matters is the statistical probability of capping a stat. This is because most players acquire gear organically. You don't know what gear you are going to end up with when you first start your character. Just because a probability is low, it doesn't mean you can't have it occur. INT is the hardest stat to cap statistically speaking using relevant SK gear, and all the data is available on the wiki to show this is the case.

Again, disagreed. What matters is how characters end up geared, not statistics. Statistics may guide creation and gearing decisions but if those decisions don’t meet their objectives then the statistics must have overlooked some assumptions.

Saying "it can happen" is like telling someone they will win the lottery. It is possible, but statistically unlikely. This is why you do not advise someone to spend there whole life savings on lottery tickets.

Rip’s Magelo is very top end. Yours is decent. Yet both have issues capping core tank stats with/without buffs.

As for buffs, you can easily show that you cannot get +235 INT, which means it is also harder to cap in that scenario.

You are incorrect about your assessment of my SK's stats. My SK has a lot more STR because tank gear tends to have STR on it. Trolls also have higher starting STR. My Magelo supports my position that relevant SK gear is more likely to have STR on it, instead of INT. I also put my starting stats into INT.

I thought you said having high str gave the ability to focus on +int gear though? Maybe you need to follow your own advice more aggressively if you really value int over str/sta?

[Jimjam]

Originally Posted by bcbrown [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

So your cost function is "minimize overcapping of relevant attributes". That's not my cost function: I will never cap any stat on any character I play, and even if I did, I will have no regret to minimize.

What I care about is what will maximize my quality of life while leveling from, say, 20 to 40? And although we all agree that the impact of starting stats is minimal, minimal is not zero.

So my cost function applies zero weight to overcapping any stat, and instead emphasizes kill-speed while leveling and loot carrying capacity.

DSM values levelling as an ordeal to go through that unlocks end game. Others view the end game just being a postgame/'winners room' for people that exhausted/completed the real game content (levelling up).

IMO this is why he values levelling stats much lower than endgame bis stats.

[Jimjam]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

A whole lot of random opinions and insults. Nobody has shown that the STR is giving enough DPS to matter. Therefore it remains unfounded opinions.

That is your guys problem. Lots of assumtions and insults lol.

Str not just improves DPS, but unlocks harder content faster (more xp, ergo better loot mobs) and improves plat/hour (more kills), but by reducing frequency of vendor runs AND increasing value of vendor runs (carry capacity).

The extra income of STR allows for better upgrades, making the character gear up faster.

Str is a compounding effect!

Statistically +Str is essentially improved mana regen, as +str will let you afford your first mana regen item sooner, getting the benefit of it for longer and meaning the +mana regen is lifetime higher for a +str char than a +int.

[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Confirmed mad treble post!

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Jimjam [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

statistics can prove anything - I think you are so focused on statistics you are overlooking practical reality.

Again, disagreed. What matters is how characters end up geared, not statistics. Statistics may guide creation and gearing decisions but if those decisions don’t meet their objectives then the statistics must have overlooked some assumptions.

Rip’s Magelo is very top end. Yours is decent. Yet both have issues capping core tank stats with/without buffs.

I thought you said having high str gave the ability to focus on +int gear though? Maybe you need to follow your own advice more aggressively if you really value int over str/sta?

You completely misread my post in it's entirety. You need to reread it, as you missed every single point. I would just be retyping the same thing.

Originally Posted by Jimjam [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

DSM values levelling as an ordeal to go through that unlocks end game. Others view the end game just being a postgame/'winners room' for people that exhausted/completed the real game content (levelling up).

IMO this is why he values levelling stats much lower than endgame bis stats.

I am simply looking at the data: https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...&postcount=300 .

I have leveled a Monk from 10-52 recently with 140 or less STR for the entire leveling process. I can tell you that having 140 STR was not a problem. 160 STR wouldn't have helped me.

Anybody claiming STR will give a significant boost to DPS is literally pulling this opinion out of thin air, and should not be listened to until they can provide evidence.

Originally Posted by Jimjam [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Confirmed mad treble post!

I am not mad at all. I am simply pointing out that people continue to post insults and baseless opinions. It is honestly sad that people care so much about trying to be right, that they are willing to mislead new players.

[Jimjam]

I was the one who made the treble post, hence am the mad one, DSM. Please reread my post as you have not understood. [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]