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  #1  
Old 08-14-2013, 11:50 PM
pallius pallius is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SamwiseRed [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
im gonna call bs unless they are just terrible players or on a corpse run.
KC groups. 4+ levels higher than a <55 char counts for something especially on low kc mobs. Higher haste than a typical 55 monk is going to have. I am talking buffed. So I am sitting at 100% haste and they are at maybe 80-90ish on a monk. An under 55 rogue isn't going to have double backstab.

I am not talking apples to apples. I am talking ~max dps 59 pally vs pick up group <55 monk/rogue.
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Old 08-12-2013, 03:00 PM
Stinkum Stinkum is offline
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Thank you to Danth and Lorraine for taking the time to type that.

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Old 08-12-2013, 03:03 PM
pharmakos pharmakos is offline
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it also depends on your level

http://www.project1999.org/forums/sh...33&postcount=1

Quote:
RAW AC

Hardcap on Raw AC for non casters was 289 at level 60. Hardcap for casters was 385. Looking at the numbers at the bottom of Kavhok's post, a level 51 Monk with 163 Raw AC was at the Hardcap. Raw AC caps for every class (except Nec/Wiz/Mag/Ench) per level should look like this from 51-60. It's just an assumption but I bet AC was hardcapped per level from 1-50 also. However the increase was much smaller. It looks like 3 AC per level.

Melee (non casters)

60 - 289
59 - 275
58 - 261
57 - 247
56 - 233
55 - 219
54 - 205
53 - 191
52 - 177
51 - 163
50 - 149 or 50 - 160
40 - 119 or 40 - 130
30 - 89 or 30 - 100
20 - 59 or 20 - 70
10 - 29 or 10 - 40
1 - 2 or 1 - 10
"RAW AC" is determined by adding up the AC stat on each of your pieces of armor, not by looking at AC on your inventory screen.
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Old 08-12-2013, 03:11 PM
Danth Danth is offline
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It should be noted that reaching or exceeding 289 worn AC during Kunark as a Paladin or Shadow Knight is possible but not at all easy. Some high-level hybrids barely exceed 200. I focus pretty heavily on AC on my own Shadow Knight and sit at 264 worn AC, albeit I'd have somewhat more if I was either super rich (I'm not) or in a top raiding guild (I'm not). Somewhere in the 250-260 range should be sufficient to get you to 1100 displayed AC with standard buffs depending on your agility and what you consider "standard" buffs.

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Old 08-12-2013, 03:25 PM
Splorf22 Splorf22 is offline
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Did you ever try to measure the 900->1000 and 1000->1100 AC differences in a precise way?
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  #6  
Old 08-12-2013, 04:08 PM
Danth Danth is offline
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I don't use log parsers if that's what you mean. I don't care enough to bother. I've done personal testing as well as tests with friends of a less precise sort but nothing I ever bothered to keep records of.

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Old 08-12-2013, 04:15 PM
Stinkum Stinkum is offline
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Reading the chart with the AC hard-cap by level...

If I'm understanding correctly, this means that the AC hard-cap is easily reached pre-level 50s. So, boosting AC will not matter much (in theory).

All of this confusion was summed up in Lorraines post about this whole matter being very unclear.
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Old 08-14-2013, 09:40 PM
Sazzabi Sazzabi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pharmakos [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
it also depends on your level

http://www.project1999.org/forums/sh...33&postcount=1



"RAW AC" is determined by adding up the AC stat on each of your pieces of armor, not by looking at AC on your inventory screen.
I am parsing this right now with 164 worn ac vs 244 worn ac at lvl 51 to see if there is a difference. Will post results.
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Old 08-15-2013, 05:21 AM
Jimjam Jimjam is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sazzabi [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
I am parsing this right now with 164 worn ac vs 244 worn ac at lvl 51 to see if there is a difference. Will post results.
Any results yet?

Also don't forget the strength of the mob you are fighting might affect the parse; 164 vs 244 worn ac might parse the same if the mob has a really low or really high 'fightiness' (say 100 or 300 wAC eqv).
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Old 08-15-2013, 07:25 AM
Lorraine Lorraine is offline
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Apologies for the long post, Danth said he wasn't going to go deep into this, but I kinda felt this might shed more light into how things were/are perceived in regards to the subject.


Quote:
Originally Posted by pharmakos [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
"RAW AC" is determined by adding up the AC stat on each of your pieces of armor, not by looking at AC on your inventory screen.

I don't think anyone disputed that, unless you were further trying to clarify it in case there were people who didn't know.


Quote:
Originally Posted by pasi [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
For what it's worth, I wouldn't further reference that AC post outside of the Kahvok quote and the information from that famous post on TSW.

I know I'm not providing much information here, and that's largely because I don't know how AC works on this server, but that post addresses LIVE and more importantly, has many unsupported points about LIVE. The big red flag for me is that the post was from Velious-era and it was answering questions that folks on TSW and SK.org didn't know the answer to years later.

Now the catch is the P99 developers could have used all that unsupported information on this server. I have no idea. Personally, I think HP is King until CHeal is no longer a complete heal.
Kahvok's post is deep SoL / Pre-PoP. He speaks of Ssra gear, and does comparisons between classes during that era. The data on the live servers is also from that era, and between Classic/Kunark and Pre-PoP there were a few changes regarding classes and their damage mitigation and damage avoidance abilities.

Can we reference it here? We probably can (some parts at least), again with a grain of salt. Without solid equations (coming directly from the developers/coders mouth) the community was left with speculations and the hard work of people who parsed endless hours and insane amounts of logs against specific mobs, in order to reach some plausible conclusions. And then again, it was still up for debate whether or not this stood.

I remember (see what I did there?) reading about this in the very very early stages of the game (beta/early live). People were trying to explain the AC-Mitigation/Avoidance and the damage received from mobs.
There was this theory that when a mob attacks a player, the outcome of the attack is determined by the roll of two dices (to explain it in an easy way). One die to see if the attack will connect (and the outcome of that die was directly affected by your Damage Avoidance number), and another die to determine how much damage is done to you (which again is affected by your Damage Mitigation number). Some people further refuted that this die was at some point combined into one, to avoid confusion.

I also remember that the general consensus was like this:
Raw AC (or Worn AC) directly affects the amount of damage you will receive IF the die that determines if you get hit or not comes up as a 'HIT'. And what it did affect, was further explained (again I don't remember how this data or the equation came into light) into this equation: Mob Damage = Base Damage + (1-20)*Bonus Damage. So, Raw AC directly affected the d20 roll on this, meaning that the a hit that you perceive as MAX on you, will be substantially lower as a number than a hit that someone with less Raw AC will.
Defense Skill and Agility directly affected the die roll that determines if you get hit or not. Again, the general consensus was that this was further constituted by a series of die rolls. One die to see if the attack misses. If it goes through, it checks to see if it gets parried. If again it goes through, it checks to see if it gets dodged, then riposted, then blocked etc etc (You get the idea).

Now, in his post, Kahvok specifically says that the Defense Skill increases both mitigation and avoidance. So was there an error in the explanations during the early stages of the game? Did we have it all wrong from the beginning? Or did we get it right, but there were changes down the road? And if there were, which era did they take place upon, and how did they directly affect our game?

Again, even if we determine all this, and we actually KNOW what is going on, we have to then try and apply it on P99. Are our devs here using code from early classic? Have they done any changes to it?
If you try to imagine how many manhours were put into this, trying to determine what is and what isn't true during live, do you really think anyone's willing to dig ALL that information up, then spend the time needed on P99 to see what applies and what doesn't?

Imo, this is Mythbusters area, so there's no "Rock solid set on stone evidence" apart from statistics posted from the community (and Everquest had/has some pretty stubborn and knowledgeable people who did a ton of work behind the scenes to get to the bottom of this). Personally, I don't trust statistics at all, it's mankinds biggest invention to lie.

This is how theory games are played.
Go into Allakhazam (or the P99 Wiki if it has the same numbers), pick any mob, then read about his damage. Most often than not, it says that it hits between X and Y.
Now, try to find out how this X and Y was posted up there.
Were those X and Y numbers taken directly from the database? Do they apply for a naked level 50 ( 60 during Kunark) character sitting down and then standing up? Are they parsed on lower level/higher level characters, and if yes, what classes were they? Have they changed down the road to reflect later expansions?
There's literally a fuckton of questions that will arise, and each one isn't exactly easy to answer without a hint of doubt.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pallius [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
KC groups. 4+ levels higher than a <55 char counts for something especially on low kc mobs. Higher haste than a typical 55 monk is going to have. I am talking buffed. So I am sitting at 100% haste and they are at maybe 80-90ish on a monk. An under 55 rogue isn't going to have double backstab.

I am not talking apples to apples. I am talking ~max dps 59 pally vs pick up group <55 monk/rogue.
At 59 with sky belt and FA, I outdamaged a 60 epic rogue who outgeared me a lot, on a mob directly outside the VP entrance. I think he still carries that monkey on his shoulder since that day.

Can it happen? Yea. It's the exception that justifies the rule. 55 rogue has better Weapon Skill against a 59 paladin (225 vs 222/223 don't remember actual max number at 59 here) and a higher Offense Skill (225 vs 222/223 or w/e it actually is). His attacks are also not getting dodged/blocked/parried or avoided in a similar fashion like yours are (assuming you're tanking, it's KC you mentioned). My money's probably like Samwise, if it's happening regularly it's due to rogues not pulling their weight by positioning themselves (or you positioning the mob) and only hitting autoattack and /afk.
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