Resists dont match up to live

[Ozst]

on live i did alot of duels, and even with only 25 MR i never saw a green or light blue mage pet land root on me every single time. this is not right...

[Daefuin]

25 mr

[Lazortag]

the OP kind of has a point. At lower levels when I was naked on this server I'd resist regular non-mage pet roots maybe 10% of the time. It didn't happen often but it happened enough that I noticed it. However, until about level 25 I thought earth pet roots were unresistable because I had never resisted a single one. At lower levels if an earth pet gets you on this server and you're alone, you're dead because it will just continue casting root over and over again without getting resisted. This is just from my experience and from a few others I've talked to, maybe I was just unlucky.

[Nizzarr]

the OP kind of has a point. At lower levels when I was naked on this server I'd resist regular non-mage pet roots maybe 10% of the time. It didn't happen often but it happened enough that I noticed it. However, until about level 25 I thought earth pet roots were unresistable because I had never resisted a single one. At lower levels if an earth pet gets you on this server and you're alone, you're dead because it will just continue casting root over and over again without getting resisted. This is just from my experience and from a few others I've talked to, maybe I was just unlucky.

Thats how it is currently and it isnt working right.

We have tanks in full top end MR gear and they still get stunned/rooted/CC'ed by 42s.

This isnt right.

[Caravelle1]

The problem is no resist check when a mob casts a spell on a PC. I've killed people because I know that any spell a charmed NPC casts will hit for full damage regardless of the reisist of the target. I charm cleric mobs in CT for PvP fights, and they nuke the full 200+ wraith every cast, even when the target is level 50 and the mob is green to them.

This is just a continuation of Sol a wizard mobs I used.

[Nizzarr]

Nizzarr: Lvl 49 enchanter mezzing lvl 50s, EVERYTHING IS BROKEN NEED FIX HELP

It is kinda broken when these 50s are in full mr gear *read only missing jacinth rings*.

If youre enchanter spells land more than 50% of the time, theres clearly an issue on resists.

Fact is, you cant magically invent magic resist gear -- Spells should be balanced with the current MR gear available. Right now, enchanter are nothing that they were on live. I couldnt do anything against a character with 100 mr on SZ, while you can play with him all day here.

I guess I should mention I won the SZ botb as an enchanter too.

[lethdar]

Seems like you're throwing in your "won botb sz" as an indication that you should have a pretty good idea how pvp worked. Just adding in the facts you left out, such as you were the only lvl 60 enchanter and never actually fought in pvp against other 60s before quitting.

Valid background information for your flawed perspective on how pvp should work.

[Nizzarr]

I did fight a lot in pvp -- I was rolling solo most of the time and I knew I couldnt do shit against most people due to enchanters being gimp in pvp.

What next big lethdar?

Know what else is valid? you taking dirtnaps for a year on SZ for being a scrub monk -- I'm sure you have something valid to add about enchanters in pvp.

[Nizzarr]

I will be testing starfires in a little bit with max fire resist(self buffed, all best in slot fire resist items) for the classic era and ill post my logs.

I havent gotten a single partial resist so far in pvp and that bothers me.

[Albane]

I have no problem resisted earth pet roots. I have been resisting them regularly since I broke 70 MR. As for mobs, I resist all spells cast on me by mobs 10 levels less than me. Perhaps if they are charmed, their chance of being resisted becomes that of their master?

When I was a mage on classic, you had to have at least 75 MR to be able to get close to me with my earth pet on you. This was a level 50 vs a level 50 though, and with item loot, most people didn't wear 1000pp jewerly.

[Verdu]

If youre enchanter spells land more than 50% of the time, theres clearly an issue on resists.


What effective MR do you have after being pillaged and tashed?

Is your effective MR still over 100?

MR over 100 and magic effects should rarely land. I don't think root ever landed at over 100mr on live. A Snare might slip through, but it was exceptionally rare, and blind would never land at 100+ mr.

FR/CR was around 150 to be able to start getting consistent full resists.

I'm all for changing the resists to match up to what they were on live, but that will be very hard to do without developer notes from that time frame. There was no public data on the resist calculations.

[Crazycloud]

I did fight a lot in pvp -- I was rolling solo most of the time and I knew I couldnt do shit against most people due to enchanters being gimp in pvp.


I will never listen to this dudes opinion ever again after this statement... Enchanters were the SHIT back in the days period.

[Nirgon]

Hopefully we can keep things in a positive light considering this is the best implementation I've seen (minus the whole whirl thing)

[Nizzarr]

Here's logs of 8 starfires with 150 fr:

[Thu Dec 22 20:49:20 2011] You feel the glare of the heavens. You have taken 612 points of damage.

[Thu Dec 22 20:44:48 2011] You feel the glare of the heavens. You have taken 612 points of damage.

[Thu Dec 22 20:44:36 2011] You feel the glare of the heavens. You have taken 302 points of damage.

[Thu Dec 22 20:43:07 2011] You feel the glare of the heavens. You have taken 536 points of damage.

[Thu Dec 22 20:40:22 2011] You feel the glare of the heavens. You have taken 296 points of damage.

[Thu Dec 22 20:39:15 2011] You feel the glare of the heavens. You have taken 289 points of damage.

[Thu Dec 22 20:39:01 2011] You feel the glare of the heavens. You have taken 271 points of damage.

[Thu Dec 22 20:37:07 2011] You feel the glare of the heavens. You have taken 499 points of damage.

So what can we make out of these limited tries? Resists are useless. Thats 10 slots of resist gear to get 149 fr and no full resists, some even landed full. I'm missing a golden diamond mask and a drakescale belt for the max FR in classic.

What does resists like these promote? Zergs - even in full resist gear, you cant resist anything from worst geared people. Whats the point then?

Current solution: get HP gear, hope you have enough MR to resist the crowd control spell and forget about any other resists -- they're useless. Mass recruit people to your guild and hope they know how to cast a nuke, cuz that nuke will land no matter what!

[Darwoth]

8 casts show nothing, try doing hundreds like i have done.

in your paltry 8 casts you took half damage 50% of the time and partials 25% of the time

at 149 fr that looks almost identical to classic, but as i understand your from a blue server and wouldn't know that.

[Szeth]

Darwoth not knowing Nizzarr actually hails from PvP server. Owning himself.

[lethdar]

Darwoth not knowing Nizzarr actually hails from PvP server. Owning himself.

Why would he? Nizzarr got 60 on SZ and quit before anyone on other teams were within 5 lvls of him. Szeth self owned.

[Darwoth]

lovely said he was from a blue server, if he was on sz at any point during the time i played there it is news to me.

[Szeth]

Lovely =/= Nizzarr

[Cast]

Was looking for darw/nizzarr to do some tests just now but neither online

I'm in full agreement with this as muc has I troll. I never even partialed a spell until 50 (well tbh Ive just been sitting on 49 if that makes a diff). I was stuck in a spot today in guk and nizzarr casted 4-5 starfires on me which the highest partial was not even 50% and I had 197FR with my song going...

before that I ate some mage bolts with same FR and one hit for full and the other partialed for something like 60-70%. MR I think is somewhat in line but FR (and assuming CR) is borked.

[Dfn]

Aw. I can't become immune to damage a week after hitting 50 before planes or kunark released.

[Cast]

Aw. I can't become immune to damage a week after hitting 50 before planes or kunark released.

lol immune - twisting words is fun

[Awwalike]

*read only missing jacinth rings*.

only missing 26 mr

[Cast]

http://i39.tinypic.com/a43cxd.png

[Lazortag]

I'm just curious if it's possible to fully resist a nuke on this server (I'm talking about regular nukes, not nukes with other effects like stun/etc.), and if so, whether the low full resist rate is intended. Null?

[azo313]

Resists, at least magic resist, is completely broken in PvP. An equal level caster can root me more than 80% of the time when I have 84+ MR. This is very different than live, where even 50 MR is enough to resists almost every root.

[Null]

Resists, at least magic resist, is completely broken in PvP. An equal level caster can root me more than 80% of the time when I have 84+ MR. This is very different than live, where even 50 MR is enough to resists almost every root.

It's closer to 60% resist rate with 84MR. It isn't intended to be exactly live like.

[azo313]

That's bad. With 84 MR, 60% of the time any caster can simply root and kill melees. Once rooted, there's nothing they can do about it except stand there and die. There needs to be a counter for it other than getting 200+ MR. Yes, I know there is pumice, but melee's have zero channeling.

Any equal level cleric, druid, wizard, etc. can kill my melee character quite easily. In many cases, even a lower level caster can easily root / kill any melee.

It's far from balanced.

[Harrison]

Welcome to Everquest PVP, est. 1999.

[Null]

That's bad. With 84 MR, 60% of the time any caster can simply root and kill melees. Once rooted, there's nothing they can do about it except stand there and die. There needs to be a counter for it other than getting 200+ MR. Yes, I know there is pumice, but melee's have zero channeling.

Any equal level cleric, druid, wizard, etc. can kill my melee character quite easily. In many cases, even a lower level caster can easily root / kill any melee.

It's far from balanced.

Like perhaps a high chance of breaking from taking damage?

[Kief]

It's closer to 60% resist rate with 84MR. It isn't intended to be exactly live like.

Currently with 175MR you still get rooted 20% of the time.

With 150FR/CR starfire and ice comet land for full or near full 70% of the time. Does it make any sense to you that all fire and cold based nukes are lures now?

This does not allow for the long drawn out fights that the majority of people on this server would like to have.

If resists were made classic, or even partials made more significant, it would make pvp much better.

[Null]

Currently with 175MR you still get rooted 20% of the time.

With 150FR/CR starfire and ice comet land for full or near full 70% of the time. Does it make any sense to you that all fire and cold based nukes are lures now?

This does not allow for the long drawn out fights that the majority of people on this server would like to have.

If resists were made classic, or even partials made more significant, it would make pvp much better.

175MR would resist 85% of the time.

At 150CR you would get hit for full from Ice Comet ~5% of the time, and the rest would land between 20 - 50% before the 33% PvP reduction.

The same goes for FR against Fire nukes.

[Kief]

175MR would resist 85% of the time.

At 150CR you would get hit for full from Ice Comet ~5% of the time, and the rest would land between 20 - 50% before the 33% PvP reduction.

The same goes for FR against Fire nukes.

Why do you think root/MR based cc spells should be implemented in this manner here? Not saying it is better or worse, but curious as to why you think these spells should be able to land when they never did on live.

In theory that resist system seems great, but must be I was simply getting unlucky with the nukes? When you could entirely resist them classicaly, that 20-50% of 66% of 1.2k (ice comet) and 612(starfire) is still incredibly significant. Especially when that unlucky 5% comes around and its 100% of 66% of said values.

[azo313]

Like perhaps a high chance of breaking from taking damage?

High chance? Seems like a pretty low chance. Not to mention, since roots land so easily who cares if it breaks? 2 seconds later you are rooted again. Melee's stand no chance against casters on this server.

[Dequarius]

Even with resists set up as they were on live, melees stood no chance vs casters in classic. A pure melee will never kill a caster unless the caster allows it to happen.

World of Warcraft can't be the model for your resist system in Everquest. Resists have to be a lot more meaningful here.

[Silikten]

175MR would resist 85% of the time.

At 150CR you would get hit for full from Ice Comet ~5% of the time, and the rest would land between 20 - 50% before the 33% PvP reduction.

The same goes for FR against Fire nukes.

most nukes at 120+ fr/cr land for full damage 7/10. from my experience the past few weeks of pvp.

[Null]

most nukes at 120+ fr/cr land for full damage 7/10. from my experience the past few weeks of pvp.

I don't mind getting on and testing this specifically, but I would be willing to bet that this is perception based on small sample sizes.

[Null]

Even with resists set up as they were on live, melees stood no chance vs casters in classic. A pure melee will never kill a caster unless the caster allows it to happen.

World of Warcraft can't be the model for your resist system in Everquest. Resists have to be a lot more meaningful here.

There is about 10% difference between what we have here, and functional immunity to most CC abilities. Hardly WoW based resist system.

[Kief]

[QUOTE=Kief;577700]Why do you think root/MR based cc spells should be implemented in this manner here? Not saying it is better or worse, but curious as to why you think these spells should be able to land when they never did on live.QUOTE]

[Nizzarr]

There is about 10% difference between what we have here, and functional immunity to most CC abilities. Hardly WoW based resist system.

I think the most glaring issue right now with the current resist system for ice and fire is that you're always better off putting in hit point gear instead of resists.

If it takes me 150fr to negate ~25% of only one category of spell, those 15 slot I wasted in FR gear would be better off HP gear, all day, everyday.

Also, I'm sitting at ~85 fr unbuffed and joeblow lvl 49 druid with 20 base FR will land his starfires for 410 most of the time, with the rare 360+ partial resist, while I will also land them for 410 on him. I have a hard time making sense of this.

So I believe the threshold for partials needs to be lowered by a bit so that people that actually take the time to gather resist gear actually benefits from it.

Also what happened to the level calculation for resists? If im 60 when kunark comes out and a level 52 lands CC spell on me, im gonna flip out.

thats just my 2 cents.

[Dequarius]

I think the whole server really would like an explanation as to why the developers think resists should not be as close to classic as possible.

Are you concerned that casters will somehow become underpowered? Even with the classic resist system, a melee was no match for any caster. There is nothing to worry about in regards to that.

Perhaps we could have some kind of demonstration? Null or another developer could play a lvl 50 rogue with the best gear in classic and duel a naked druid?

I don't mean to sound vindictive, but I think a lot of players are frustrated to find their resist gear so ineffective after spending time and effort accumulating it. Quite curious as to reasoning behind making resists this way.

[Kringe]

175MR would resist 85% of the time..

The problem with that is it takes less than 2 seconds to disable someone... if you have 3-4 people casting root on you, its pretty safe to say they will land that 15% chance to get root stuck on you... And shit I dunno about you but 175mr is hella hard for people to achieve in classic let alone a monk...

I'd like to see your best geared monk (with currently whats open, PoF etc..) verse a naked druid..... Like the above poster said... I bet you cant get close to 175mr.

[Null]

Why do you think root/MR based cc spells should be implemented in this manner here? Not saying it is better or worse, but curious as to why you think these spells should be able to land when they never did on live.


and

I think the whole server really would like an explanation as to why the developers think resists should not be as close to classic as possible.

Bluntly? Classic resists are a bad system. Is ours perfect? No, it needs work. However I do not think that effectively gutting a bunch of spell lines from the game is the solution.


In theory that resist system seems great, but must be I was simply getting unlucky with the nukes? When you could entirely resist them classicaly, that 20-50% of 66% of 1.2k (ice comet) and 612(starfire) is still incredibly significant. Especially when that unlucky 5% comes around and its 100% of 66% of said values.

If you have 50FR and 1000HP and you are considering adding 10FR, that 10FR is only worth 25HP against FR based nukes. However if you have 100FR and you add another 10FR then its worth 69HP. This also means that the more of a resist that you get, the more effective buffs are....for example if I have 100FR with 1000HP and I get 40FR from Resist Fire, that Resist Fire is effectively worth 467HP against FR based nukes. But if you have 50FR and you get buffed with Resist Fire, its only worth 155HP.

TL;DR: While resists are always going to be situational, they scale a hell of a lot better than HP gear...especially if you have access to buffs.

[Crazycloud]

That's the problem Null. I agree maybe with the CR/FR in a way but not with MR. Back in the days you were able to PVP solo without getting rooted/snared as monk/warrior/ranger/pally (if you geared more towards resist) unless you got tashed/malo'd/debuffed. Now n days you need buffs to resist it more often and STILL you will get rooted (lol).

[Dequarius]

Why do you think classic resists are a bad system? Did you play classic pvp? Everyone here seems to agree that classic resists work a hell of a lot better than this.

You want CC spells like root and snare to land consistently... why? A system in which there is no way to counter being CC'd is a far worse system than classic ever was. The only way a melee could hope to combat being completely immobilized and rendered useless in pvp was to gather resist gear. You have taken that away.

The bottom line is casters DON'T NEED their CC spells to land in pvp in order to be effective. I don't know how you came to the conclusion that they do.

[Hovis]

175MR would resist 85% of the time.

At 150CR you would get hit for full from Ice Comet ~5% of the time, and the rest would land between 20 - 50% before the 33% PvP reduction.

The same goes for FR against Fire nukes.

holy shit. monks can maybe get that with a damn shawl of protection.... cmon man thats ridiculous..

[Kief]

and



Bluntly? Classic resists are a bad system. Is ours perfect? No, it needs work. However I do not think that effectively gutting a bunch of spell lines from the game is the solution.



If you have 50FR and 1000HP and you are considering adding 10FR, that 10FR is only worth 25HP against FR based nukes. However if you have 100FR and you add another 10FR then its worth 69HP. This also means that the more of a resist that you get, the more effective buffs are....for example if I have 100FR with 1000HP and I get 40FR from Resist Fire, that Resist Fire is effectively worth 467HP against FR based nukes. But if you have 50FR and you get buffed with Resist Fire, its only worth 155HP.

TL;DR: While resists are always going to be situational, they scale a hell of a lot better than HP gear...especially if you have access to buffs.

Cool I can appreciate this. Hope more players try to help you figure out what the magic numbers should be.

[Lazortag]

Bluntly? Classic resists are a bad system. Is ours perfect? No, it needs work. However I do not think that effectively gutting a bunch of spell lines from the game is the solution.


I strongly disagree with this. Some spells just shouldn't be very effective in pvp. Nerfing a spell in pvp doesn't gut it from the game, because spells like root and snare are still very useful in PvE. Similarly spells that are practically useless in PvE (str-reducing spells, g-flux (correct me if I'm wrong about this one)) can be very useful in PvP, and that doesn't mean we have to compensate for their ineffectiveness in PvE situations. Plus, you can still use these spells on naked or undergeared players if you desire. Classic resists were a good system because it made people rely more on skill than on spamming the same spell 50 times because they can't kill anyone who isn't standing still. Why do you think root nets were such a problem?

[azo313]

P1999 red is simply far from classic. I'm fairly certain any level 50 wizard on a corpse run can kill any melee that's full geared even with 100+ MR.

[Crazycloud]

I strongly disagree with this. Some spells just shouldn't be very effective in pvp. Nerfing a spell in pvp doesn't gut it from the game, because spells like root and snare are still very useful in PvE. Similarly spells that are practically useless in PvE (str-reducing spells, g-flux (correct me if I'm wrong about this one)) can be very useful in PvP, and that doesn't mean we have to compensate for their ineffectiveness in PvE situations. Plus, you can still use these spells on naked or undergeared players if you desire. Classic resists were a good system because it made people rely more on skill than on spamming the same spell 50 times because they can't kill anyone who isn't standing still. Why do you think root nets were such a problem?

I don't even like wolfram and I agree with what he just wrote.

[heartbrand]

No other MMORPG with PVP has spells like root that completely disable a player for the duration of an entire combat, seems ridiculous.

[Null]

No other MMORPG with PVP has spells like root that completely disable a player for the duration of an entire combat, seems ridiculous.

That isn't the intent here either.

[Dequarius]

That isn't the intent here either.

but thats the result.

[Null]

but thats the result.

People are consistently planted in the ground for the entirely duration of a fight, getting melee'd and nuked without the ability to move?

[azo313]

A blue con wizard on a corpse run just killed my fully geared 50 melee three times in a row (corpse camp). Loot randed every single time with 106 MR. He landed 6 roots in total with zero resists.

PvP is officially broken.

[Nirgon]

http://troll.me/images/billy-mays/hahahahaha-look-at-my-beard-thumb.jpg

[Null]

A blue con wizard on a corpse run just killed my fully geared 50 melee three times in a row (corpse camp). Loot randed every single time with 106 MR. He landed 6 roots in total with zero resists.

PvP is officially broken.

RNG is a bitch sometimes what can I say.

[Silikten]

I liked vz/tz resist system, just sayin.

[azo313]

Well, I officially quit red server. I didn't sign up for this. I signed up for "classic." Resists are not classic, and you admit it. Yet you claim that it's "better" this way. I didn't sign up to play what you think is better. I signed up for classic EQ. Let me know when you decide to stick with the original plan and I may give it another whirl.

[Silikten]

Ice Comet lands with 152 cold resist for full damage. This has got to be broke.

[Null]

Ice Comet lands with 152 cold resist for full damage. This has got to be broke.

It's like a 5% chance of that happening

[loserofgame]

It's like a 5% chance of that happening

Do you have the ability to test your numbers on red?

Like, couldn't you log on, set your class to 50 Wizard, and IC another GM over and over when they have 152CR?

[Silikten]

It's like a 5% chance of that happening

Dang, i had 741hp and thought I could eat it. I was 5%'d!

[Null]

Do you have the ability to test your numbers on red?

Like, couldn't you log on, set your class to 50 Wizard, and IC another GM over and over when they have 152CR?

Yes, and I have a simulator that I can run offline to test shit like this.

[loserofgame]

Yes, and I have a simulator that I can run offline to test shit like this.

Cool. thx for share.

[azo313]

Just got rooted 4 out of 6 times with 113 MR by a blue con druid.
On live he would have landed zero. On P99 root is almost the only pvp spell he was casting (beside nukes).

[heartbrand]

and



Bluntly? Classic resists are a bad system. Is ours perfect? No, it needs work. However I do not think that effectively gutting a bunch of spell lines from the game is the solution.



If you have 50FR and 1000HP and you are considering adding 10FR, that 10FR is only worth 25HP against FR based nukes. However if you have 100FR and you add another 10FR then its worth 69HP. This also means that the more of a resist that you get, the more effective buffs are....for example if I have 100FR with 1000HP and I get 40FR from Resist Fire, that Resist Fire is effectively worth 467HP against FR based nukes. But if you have 50FR and you get buffed with Resist Fire, its only worth 155HP.

TL;DR: While resists are always going to be situational, they scale a hell of a lot better than HP gear...especially if you have access to buffs.

Hybrid EXP Penalties, slow ass xp, etc., etc., all awful mechanics but classic. Classic resist system is bad? Custom implemented.

[Nirgon]

Classic resists and item loot are a good system

I have an offline system in my head that remembers how bad ass this pvp server was and nothing is like it today

[mostbitter]

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_hrdwcncbaQ4/TC1Jca5t5uI/AAAAAAAACVQ/1YtD0ugPX28/s800/Blast+From+The+Past+%281999%29.jpg

[Nirgon]

Alicia fell off so hard

[Nizzarr]

bump