Petition: Guild raid suspensions should be progressively longer every time

[Loke]

You guys act like suspensions are the result of players maliciously plotting to break the rules, when in actuality it is usually simple mistakes or single members not understanding some of the ridiculously complicated, ever changing, subjective, and poorly documented rules.

It seems like every few weeks there is some random person chiming in with their own brand of how to fix the raid scene, when 9 times out of 10 they aren't part of the raid scene and have no idea what is actually going on. I have no idea who the OP is, but a system like that makes absolutely no sense for at least the class C guilds (I can't speak to class R since I haven't paid attention to what is going on with them).

Not only that, but this change would result in rule lawyering becoming more important as guilds try to get out of suspensions and get their competition suspended.

[toolshed]

Originally Posted by Tiggles [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Nah

Could you (or TMO in general) please elaborate on why you think this would be a bad policy going forward?

[Connecticut]

The real question is, why even make a guild to raid?

With voice chat, batphones and forums there are more than enough communication tools available to not be affiliated with a guild tag, but still raid as a unit.

It would also bypass raid classes and restrictions currently in place for guilds.



You think you hate <guild X> now, just wait till they can't be punished as a whole!
I smell big things to come on the p99 underground raiding scene. [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[toolshed]

Originally Posted by Loke [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You guys act like suspensions are the result of players maliciously plotting to break the rules, when in actuality it is usually simple mistakes or single members not understanding some of the ridiculously complicated, ever changing, subjective, and poorly documented rules.

I agree that the rules are overly complicated, but transparency in raid suspensions themselves would help in understanding what to do and what not to do.

And I doubt that TMO and IB are having their brand new members pull mobs to their raids. People in these guilds know what they are doing and the ignorance-excuse is pretty appalling considering how old this game is and how long we have been playing it. You kind of made my point though: TMO and IB would be more cautious in regards to pulling/raiding in general if they knew that the stakes were higher.

The top guilds know what the rules are man, lets just be honest. The top guilds helped write the rules.

PS - I have no idea who you are either. The difference between us that I don't care who you are.

[Frieza_Prexus]

The issue is that current punishments are generally ad hoc. Similar punishments have been handed out for drastically different offenses and similar offenses have merited drastically different punishments.

Without a way to differentiate the "misdemeanor" from the "felony," progressive punishments won't really work out. There's no meaningful standard. For example, many puller errors in VP are often punished with the "suspension" of a single dragon which is actually a simple recognition of "your puller messed up, so drop it" yet the language of "suspension" makes you think that the rules were violated with ill intent. Other times, puller error results in out-and-out suspension. The same is also true for intentional violations; the inconsistent standard applies there as well.

Regarding toolshed's proposal, I think the community overall, including Class C, would welcome it if the proper procedures were in place to make the process more consistent, more efficient, easier to understand, fairer, and more public.

Public raid petitions would perhaps go hand-in-hand with this type of system.

[Frieza_Prexus]

Originally Posted by toolshed [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

And I doubt that TMO and IB are having their brand new members pull mobs to their raids.

You'd be surprised. A good amount of these infractions are the result of exactly this.

One interesting fact is that guilds have, several times over the years, been disciplined over inexperienced puller error only for that player to deguild within minutes and join the competition as a "reward" for the error with no punishment following the erring player.

[Orruar]

WTS raid suspensions. For 250k (starting bid), I will infiltrate a guild with an alt and take an action that leads to that guild being raid suspended. PM me with bids.

[Daldaen]

Or maybe... The pulls people do are so ridiculous that there are so many things which could possibly go wrong and result in training the other guild(s) present that *MAYBE* we shouldn't try those tactics. *MAYBE* training the entire zone spawn in Hate, Fear, VP, Naggys Lair, Permafrost... Is something that should have high risk associated with it, not simply shrugged off as "it is the way those encounters are".

Make someone wiping you with their botched train in Hate or Fear or on classic Dragons a 4 week suspension. You will see guilds be a lot more careful or come up with a new strategy real quick.

Would love to see some classic crawls, not herpderp trains.

[Ella`Ella]

Originally Posted by Daldaen [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Or maybe... The pulls people do are so ridiculous that there are so many things which could possibly go wrong and result in training the other guild(s) present that *MAYBE* we shouldn't try those tactics. *MAYBE* training the entire zone spawn in Hate, Fear, VP, Naggys Lair, Permafrost... Is something that should have high risk associated with it, not simply shrugged off as "it is the way those encounters are".

Make someone wiping you with their botched train in Hate or Fear or on classic Dragons a 4 week suspension. You will see guilds be a lot more careful or come up with a new strategy real quick.

Would love to see some classic crawls, not herpderp trains.

Have you ever led a raid?

[Orruar]

Originally Posted by Daldaen [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Or maybe... The pulls people do are so ridiculous that there are so many things which could possibly go wrong and result in training the other guild(s) present that *MAYBE* we shouldn't try those tactics. *MAYBE* training the entire zone spawn in Hate, Fear, VP, Naggys Lair, Permafrost... Is something that should have high risk associated with it, not simply shrugged off as "it is the way those encounters are".

Make someone wiping you with their botched train in Hate or Fear or on classic Dragons a 4 week suspension. You will see guilds be a lot more careful or come up with a new strategy real quick.

Would love to see some classic crawls, not herpderp trains.

This right here. Back on live we got along with other guilds because we knew if we had the GMs come in, nobody would be happy. The staff here should have been handing down bans/suspensions like candy years ago and that would have forced people to play nice and learn to get along.