Sir Lucan D'Lere - FTE or Camp?

[Rajahten]

Originally Posted by Samoht [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Also, name and shame. What guild were they in?

Although I dislike what they did, I don't want to stoop to their level and name them. I am happy with the results and I am not going to fuel anything

[Bohab]

Originally Posted by Samoht [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Also, name and shame. What guild were they in?

I got FTE on my warrior Keary in AG. I was under the impression Lucan was an FTE mob due to my many past experiences. I have no shame in what I did because I thought I was within the rules. I was not apparently and the rule needs to be consistent across the board (they are not). I will just AFK camp him when needed moving forward and toss out petitions when somebody attacks him before me...

Only reason I need to kill Lucan is to compete against guilds such as the Paladin's that was camping Lucan. I didn't ask for the raid environment to be so cutthroat that I need to try and FTE Lucan from a Paladin in a competing guild but it is what it is. Don't take it personal, it was strictly business.

[Rajahten]

Originally Posted by Bohab [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I got FTE on my warrior Keary in AG. I was under the impression Lucan was an FTE mob due to my many past experiences. I have no shame in what I did because I thought I was within the rules. I was not apparently and the rule needs to be consistent across the board (they are not). I will just AFK camp him when needed moving forward and toss out petitions when somebody attacks him before me...

Only reason I need to kill Lucan is to compete against guilds such as the Paladin's that was camping Lucan. I didn't ask for the raid environment to be so cutthroat that I need to try and FTE Lucan from a Paladin in a competing guild but it is what it is. Don't take it personal, it was strictly business.

I wasn't afk, just for the record. I was there every second of the time I spent camping him and was prepared to engage within several minutes.

[Swish]

If he's campable you'll be buying MQs from now on.

Another win for EC fat cats.

[Bohab]

Not here to argue or flame anyone. The point of the post was to establish consistency. Myself and many others have experiences with Lucan where it was much like camping (tracking?) VT. When it spawns you engage regardless of who has been there longer. Phinny is a static spawn on a static timer and yet there is no regard for who has been 'camping' him longer and as far as I know it is not considered a camp. There is no consistency and that is what makes the conflict. Most of us want to work within the rules but please make them consistent.

[Nightbear]

Originally Posted by Samoht [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Also, name and shame. What guild were they in?

Originally Posted by Nightbear [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Also today Moregan intervened AG FTE'ing Lucan from a Paladin who was camping him for his epic. Guessing what this post is about.

And I agree, consistency would be nice. Indig was unaware of this rule about a month prior and we had two members slapped with a week ban out of no where.

[Samoht]

Originally Posted by Bohab [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Not here to argue or flame anyone. The point of the post was to establish consistency. Myself and many others have experiences with Lucan where it was much like camping (tracking?) VT. When it spawns you engage regardless of who has been there longer. Phinny is a static spawn on a static timer and yet there is no regard for who has been 'camping' him longer and as far as I know it is not considered a camp. There is no consistency and that is what makes the conflict. Most of us want to work within the rules but please make them consistent.

I'd like for you to explain your VT delusion further. You act as if you've camped it before, but you seem to be either confused by the camping rules or you're outright lying about it being a problem.

Most people track VT with a level 1 DE cleric alt. They change their Enchanters bind point to Neriak Third Gate, and they have friends log alt healers/tanks there with them. This allows them to casually track her during the hours they're not actively raiding. When she spawns, they switch characters and wait for their force to show up since Enchanters are squishy and might have a hard time soloing her (twice so for Vessel).

That makes the VT encounter normally come down to first in force, not first to engage. If you engage without your force with no intent on killing (kiting), that's a stall and also subject to discipline.

If somebody had a force present in zone at the spawn ready to pull when VT spawns, I would say that they'll get the kill. If two forces were present, I would say that that's a lot of wasted time and the decision would come down to whoever wasn't AFK when it spawned.

So is VT campable? Sure. Are you going to make your friends and guild mates waste 5 days of their lives in Neriak Third Gate waiting for her to spawn? Jesus Christ no.

[Halius]

Originally Posted by Samoht [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

No, that's not what I'm saying at all. You're intentionally misinterpreting it for some reason, whether you disagree with the rules or you're playing devil's advocate, or whatever. I don't care. Quit being glib.



You're not allowed to AFK camp, so yes. You have to be at keyboard when it spawns. It would suck if what you describe in your scenario happens, but that's unfortunate luck. Now you know the time of death, though, and you can better plan for the next kill.



That's definitely too long. You would be inconveniencing a lot of people.

Gonna have to kindly disagree with you on this one Samoht. You don't need to engage a mob that you are camping (unless of course the mob is FTE) within seconds of it spawning. I did some digging cause I knew there was a post about this some time back. But you are allowed a couple minutes of leeway before someone can come in and steal your camp. In general, just because a PH spawns you aren't allowed to instantly take it just because the person camping the mob didn't hit it immediately.

From Derubael:

1) In this situation, you should have still held the camp, depending on how long the placeholder was up. Essentially, the person who took your camp needs to message you and let you know he is interested in contesting the camp, at which point you would need to then stay at or near the spawn in order to hold it. Until that happens you are free to roam the zone as long as you keep the placeholders clear.

That being said, if the placeholder was up for an inordinate amount of time, then he would be justified in taking the camp. Keep in mind there is no "camp timer" to determine how long a PH can be up before a camp can be taken. A handful of minutes should be the max (you need to be actively keeping placeholders clear if you're going to claim a camp... set an egg timer or something to remind you when the spawn is coming). We want to be as flexible as possible with the camp-holders themselves, while at the same time being reasonable about what constitutes a "held" spawn. You can't have a placeholder up for 10 minutes yet claim to be holding the camp.

For people wishing to move into a camp, be aware of whether or not the placeholders are up. If you move into a camp and see the placeholders down, it's up to you to ask around and find out who's camping it if you don't see them right away. When the PH spawns it's bad form to immediately engage, and potentially a violation of the camp rules. Let it stay up for a handful of minutes to see if anyone comes and engages. If they don't, the camp would be yours as per the above paragraph. If they do, you need to communicate to them that you are interested in the camp. If you do not clearly communicate you wish to contest the camp, you can't move in if the person walks away after killing the placeholder.

Essentially, the camp rules boils down to this:

A camp is yours regardless of where you are in the zone as long as you keep the placeholders clear, until someone wishes to contest the camp, at which point you must stay at or very near the spawn from that point forward.

As always, if you are camping two spawns and someone wises to take one, you must pick one and give up the other(s). In cases where you are holding more than two spawns and another party wishes to contest two or more spawns, you may pick the one you want most and then split the remaining camps in the best way possible (IE, for multiple spawns - say, a 4 spawn of goblins, each party would take 2. For single spawns, alternate kills - you take one, opposing party takes one, and so on).

2) In this situation you were indeed in the wrong. Once you leave a zone, die, or log out of the camp (/quit) you have forfeited the camp automatically. You must then work to re-claim your camp as per the camp rules outlined in 1).

This may seem slightly complicated, but it's infinitely better than the system we had before. The fact that I can reduce it to 1 sentence is a testament to it's simplicity. It's also incredibly effective and promotes a much more common sense approach to camps and camp disputes in general. Also keep in mind that the "player mediated dispute" feature that is present in the raid scene is also present in every player-level dispute imaginable. We greatly encourage players to work out disputes on their own if possible before /petitioning for a CSR. A player chosen solution is going to be much better than any a CSR will hand down, simply on the merit that it was player mediated.

Hope this clears some things up. Feel free to quote this post/point people to this post in the future to clarify the camp rules.

So essentially this means that if BOTH GMs consider Lucan a camp, then he had a couple of minutes to engage after he spawned.

[kaev]

If players on live had been so relentlessly obsessed with soulfire as every random toon's raid clicky the way we are here it would've been fixed to be clickable by paladin only long before it was. There're more tin-plated toolbags per square inch on this server than even the worst of the original live communities dreamed of.

[Samoht]

Originally Posted by Halius [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Gonna have to kindly disagree with you on this one Samoht. You don't need to engage a mob that you are camping (unless of course the mob is FTE) withing seconds of it spawning. I did some digging cause I knew there was a post about this some time back. But you are allowed a couple minutes of leeway before someone can come in and steal your camp. In general, just because a PH spawns you aren't allowed to instantly take it just because the person camping the mob didn't hit it immediately.

You didn't actually disagree with anything I said. I gave an abstract time frame. You're trying to compare it to an absolute time frame. We might disagree on how to qualify an immediate tag, but that's fine. I think that the rule of thumb would be as soon as possible to prevent douchebaggery like this. If you have to petition, you let it sit too long.