Raiding in P1999 is nothing like raiding in classic.

[quido]

Tasslehof you should roll red bro

[ncapatina]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Everyone agrees P99's raid scene isn't, and can never be exactly like it was on live. So this whole discussion can't just be "it was X on live, so it should be X on P99".

Two live servers weren't even the same. Of course P99 is going to have its own wrinkles. But p99 is actually pretty close to how the majority of live servers raided. The biggest difference is we know the end of the story. That makes some items and the MOBs that drop them more valuable/contested. But that re-prioritization of content doesn't effect the methodology used here or any live server.

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

So it's ok to say "I have an opinion, and that opinion is that everyone should have to play 40 hours a week to see VP." But other people have different opinions, and theirs are no better and no worse than your opinion.

I agree, saying "I think you should have to play 40 hours a week to see VP" is an opinion. But that's not what I'm saying. What I said was that is what has already been set as the requirement to see VP here. Those are the facts bro, no opinion in that statement. If a cheeseburger costs $2 saying I think that a fair price is $1 and that is what I'll pay doesn't get me a cheeseburger.

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

At the end of the day it all comes down to what we want P99 to be. So given that, don't we all want a guild that spends twice as much effort to get twice as much reward ... not infinitely more reward?

Here is the problem with that logic. What "we" want isn't all the same. Do you think TMO wants things to change? I really doubt it. Why would they? I'm not trying to speak for them but I would imagine they feel they've earned their advantage and it would be unfair to take it away from them.

Contested content does this. One guild/group killing something means another guild/group can't kill it. If I were the leadership in TMO I'd want to keep a stranglehold on the gateway to higher level content to limit contention too. That's just the way EQ works man, sorry.

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

P.S. Oh, and by "we" I in some sense mean "the p99 developers" ... but since it does seem that they can be influenced by the rest of us, in a way "we" really does mean "us".

If the development team wanted to step in and force change they could. It would be somewhat contrary to what the stated goals of this server are but it is certainly their prerogative.

All the above (and stuff in previous posts) being said, I don't think anyone wants the server to be a bunch of casuals and TMO. What fun would that be? But if people aren't going to step up and compete with them on their level that's what will end up happening.

[ncapatina]

Originally Posted by melton80 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

And everyone wonders why p99 isnt growing population wise, the community is toxic on this server and it is all about me, me , me. Greed and ego rule this server and new players see that and say screw this, it isnt the game that is keeping the server down, it is u the community. just go look at some mmorpg websites, anytime p99 is mentioned in a forum it is always negative with the main complaints being the greed and douchebagery of the community. If u want p99 to keep shrinking keep doing exactly what everyone is doing right now cause no one wants to play a game were 1 guild cockblocks everything and everyone wants an arm and a leg for everything.

I've found the community to be anything but toxic. I've been around on this server for about 2 months now and aside from the occasional forum troll people have been generally helpful and pleasant.

Granted, I'm not up to the raiding scene yet. But I guess my opinion on that is that if I came here to do high end raiding I would have to be prepared to do what it takes.

People need to appreciate what this server is instead of complain about what this server isn't.

[Laugher]

Originally Posted by ncapatina [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

People need to appreciate what this server is instead of complain about what this server isn't.

Agreed. Of all the places one can get their EQ fix in I think this server has it best for anyone looking for a feel of pre-luclin/planes EQ. Sure, if you did want to play anywhere else for a "livelike" experience you could've ended up on Live or the Grand Creation and (not to bash those servers) probably ended up grouping with someone who felt courteous enough to drop 1/6 boxes they ran just to get around. The idea that MQ and boxing isn't allowed here in and of itself has in my opinion made for a solid community that has now lasted years plural.

Unlike other EQ communities I enjoy being here also because (i.e. again Live: "go get some defiant stuff from tutorial/crescent reach/bazaar") here people are willing to help others and respond with an answer (even money and/or lowbie gear in some cases) as opposed to just referring you to allakhazam; was once given a box of abu-kar as a noob for passing by the right level 50 at the right time haha.

Point: There are indeed alot of positive aspects to this community you don't find on any other EQ server anymore. In as much as that there is a lot of enjoyment to be had with friends raid or no raid.

That being said as a higher level on a limited amount of content there certainly is competition and I don't doubt the fact that it gets heated, but that is not the whole game, and if it is why didn't you join TMO or the former IB to begin with? lol, there are solutions if you don't want to be part of TMO but as they've been suggested several times nobody wants to cooperate enough under multiple guild tags to make that happen; I wasn't around much when TMO became the "big boss" (didn't play during school semesters) but from what I've read several times they had persistence and had to pry the torch from other guild's hands, why other guilds aren't banding together to "pry the torch from their hands" so to say if they feel so strongly about it is beyond me; regardless of loot you'd eventually have a workable and comparably competitive community of a decent size under several tags and level should you put in the effort for a short while together (which could at that point merge if they got along so well).

[Fael]

This thread is stupid. Velious was out within a year of Kunark's launch. Apples and frikin oranges.

Dolic

[Arteker]

Originally Posted by Tasslehofp99 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The problem with p99 raiding is the rules of the server. Non-classic additions such as Variance, Sanctioned training, and the extended timeline we're on in combination with server repops rarely happening have created the situation on this server in terms of raiding.


Take out sanctioned training in VP, and have server repops more often..and you will see the loot spread out a lot more fairly. I mean TMO doesn't even need 75% of the loot they take in, its pure greed...and really has nothing to do with competition. They already will win velious regardless, with minimal effort, because no one has the amount of loot, or characters that they do.

The rest of us are just sitting here hoping the server's staff at some point implements more fair rules, or atleast enforces the rules they have here. By that I mean, IP exemption exploiting was always a bannable offense, it says so in the original message they send to you after your exemption goes through. Specifically, ever since Sirken made that ruling following TMO's previous IP exemption exploitations it was understood those caught would be banned. However, just this week Jeremy was caught abusing his IP exemption...and he wasn't banned.

How is this fair to the hundreds of other folks who were banned immediately upon being caught? What kind of message do you think this sends to the rest of the server?
Just saying, you can't expect people to feel as if they're playing on a level playing field when situations like this come about fairly regularly. I don't just mean in terms of individual players breaking the rules, I mean entire guilds as well. I'm not saying any one guild is more guilty than another either. But if you continually don't enforce the rules in a game..people will just take advantage of that, and they do on p99 everyday!

not much ago Dreconis from fE was caugth boxing lovya and he isnt got banned aswell and last time i cheked he is a FE member wich used a old alt from tmo ingrid to spy and GM even did a priblic shout when caught him .

if u wanna start with shit like that FE have much worse things to lose than tmo realy.

[loramin]

First off, thanks for the thoughtful response; sometimes these dialogues become ... less than thoughtful.

Originally Posted by ncapatina [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Here is the problem with that logic. What "we" want isn't all the same. Do you think TMO wants things to change? I really doubt it. Why would they?

I'd argue "because they are human beings". People may have selfish desires, but they also have a sense of justice. It's inherently human to think that "twice the effort deserves twice the reward", and even the people who are currently benefiting from an unfair system can appreciate the unfairness of it.

I think TMO wants fairness too, and their concerns about "we had to work for this and we don't want others to get stuff without having to work for it" is about fairness also. I think both TMO and the TMO haters are concerned about an unfair system, and ultimately that's what unites us all (or maybe just most; there's a few rotten apples on both sides).

Now, I realize that perfect fairness is a pipe dream, but EQ in general gets pretty close. It's true that someone could camp a mob for 4 hours and get loot while someone who camped it for 8 hours got nothing ... but in general the guy camping for 8 hours is going to get 2x the loot of the 4 hour guy. Same thing for exp grinding: in general if you grind for 8 hours you'll get twice as much exp as if you only grinded (ground?) for 4 hours.

So if EQ is generally fair all the way until the very end, shouldn't we try and get at least close to fair at the end? No freebies for people who don't earn them, and no lockouts for anyone not in the cool kids club, just our best shot at making a system that proportionally rewards everyone ... isn't that something reasonable we can all support?

[ncapatina]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

First off, thanks for the thoughtful response; sometimes these dialogues become ... less than thoughtful.

Couldn't agree more. Differing opinions doesn't mean people have to be at each others throat. Part of having a solid community is intelligent discourse.

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'd argue "because they are human beings". People may have selfish desires, but they also have a sense of justice. It's inherently human to think that "twice the effort deserves twice the reward", and even the people who are currently benefiting from an unfair system can appreciate the unfairness of it.

I think TMO wants fairness too, and their concerns about "we had to work for this and we don't want others to get stuff without having to work for it" is about fairness also. I think both TMO and the TMO haters are concerned about an unfair system, and ultimately that's what unites us all (or maybe just most; there's a few rotten apples on both sides).

I'd argue it's already fair. The playing field is level, nobody has an advantage. You just have a group that puts in more effort/time. There just isn't a half effort/half reward option unfortunately. Well, I guess you could farm plat and buy raid drops from TMO, lol.

Eventually the strategy of keeping the high end content on lockdown will lead to a 90% casual/10% in TMO type situation (like Hate was on SZ for example) or worse, drive people away. But the decision to allow other guilds uncontested shots at contested content is ultimately up to TMO leadership. People asking for divine intervention from the p99 devs is just going to put them on the defensive I imagine.

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Now, I realize that perfect fairness is a pipe dream, but EQ in general gets pretty close. It's true that someone could camp a mob for 4 hours and get loot while someone who camped it for 8 hours got nothing ... but in general the guy camping for 8 hours is going to get 2x the loot of the 4 hour guy. Same thing for exp grinding: in general if you grind for 8 hours you'll get twice as much exp as if you only grinded (ground?) for 4 hours.

So if EQ is generally fair all the way until the very end, shouldn't we try and get at least close to fair at the end? No freebies for people who don't earn them, and no lockouts for anyone not in the cool kids club, just our best shot at making a system that proportionally rewards everyone ... isn't that something reasonable we can all support?

Here is where I see a problem with your stance. Take the given example, person A camps the mob for 4 hours and person B for 8. The key fact you're leaving out is they can't camp it at the same time. Now let's say person B has the camp and holds it 24/7, which is within the rules. Person A could have had roughly half the drops in 12 hours but never got the opportunity.

At that point you either force person B to share, which effectively reduces the amount of drops he is getting over time, or person A has to take the camp on the next server restart or whatever. It's a microcosm of the contested raiding world, just instead of 30 minute respawns it may be an entire week.

If you ask person A they'd probably say it was unfair they never got a shot. If you ask person B they'd probably say it would unfair to take something away from them just because someone else wants it.

The big difference in my mind, and why I personally side with person B is that person A wants the same opportunities with less effort.

Like I said much earlier in this thread, there is a reason all modern MMOs have instanced raiding. These same complaints rang loud on EQ Live and companies don't want to deal with a lot of pissed off customers all the time.

[Ruenaros]

The whole discussion is moot since they've already stated weekly server repops are in the works. That alone will turn the raid scene on its head since it will no longer be possible for one guild to monopolize 97% of the content.

They'll probably still get 75-80% of it, but that's way more in line with how classic worked. Just gonna have to bide our time and wait for Nilbog to shake things up.

[JayN]

Originally Posted by melton80 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

no one wants to play a game were 1 guild cockblocks everything and everyone wants an arm and a leg for everything.

This is just like real life, fuck working