BDA to Phinigel

[Juryiel]

Originally Posted by Ravager [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Knowledge is the reward. In life, people don't get punished for learning from someone else's mistakes, so why should they be punished for it here?

Maybe there should be some kind of compensation for initial investment, but you have to draw a line at some point once that has been recouped.

I never said it was fair over a short term. You're talking to someone who has been playing this server off and on for over half a decade. I would argue most people who are raiding on a hobby server are in it for the long haul, so they will have good streaks and bad streaks, but it does even out. Further, it would promote more of a stick it out mentality than DKP has to offer. How much guild-hopping is there because people want their loot right now, but when they see what they're up against in terms of DKP, they look for greener pastures?
You're right, but my argument is DKP has more issues than /random in terms of fairness of loot distribution. There probably is a third, superior way to both, but nobody is bothered to think of it. They just continue to patch the flawed DKP system when it springs leaks.
I was talking about fairness, not cheating. I don't think most people in a DKP guild are deliberately trying to screw anyone over. Most privileged folks aren't, they're just blind to their advantage over others.

Real life has a wide assortment of reward structures including often rewarding people who pioneer things more so than those who follow. And sure, there should be a limit, and with many DKP systems there often is, and is set however each guild thinks is appropriate.

As far as the unevenness, sure, each person who joins can wait a year to get to that 'attendance % of loot' with /random if they want. I would still prefer to force it to immediately be as close as possible. And the short term unevenness is itself terrible even if it did even out eventually - imagine the instability of having to /random for how much you will be paid based on your salary. In the long term it would even out, but at any given time you might be very screwed or very lucky. Most people would prefer the certainty of a steady middle number than the highs and lows that /random brings.

Generally I don't think we disagree. I think finding the perfect loot system is basically impossible or at least very difficult. It's not that people haven't bothered, a lot of thought goes into these systems and how each guild implements their own instance. It's just not easy to balance, and not easy to decide what to reward.

But I'm not sure I buy your assertion that DKP is worse than random. You're welcome to demonstrate it if you care to by applying it to the actual structure of EQ and people's behavior, but I bet you'll find /random to be terrible in the more realistic non-ideal case, and DKP to be imperfect but OK when you do.

[Ahldagor]

Originally Posted by heyokah [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You guys straight up ruined this thread with essays and math and shit about dragon killing points. Fuck you.

[Red_Messiah]

what's this thread actually about?

[kaev]

Lately it's mostly been about watching people get rustled over Ravager's defense of /ran. Or were you looking for an agenda?

[Ahldagor]

Originally Posted by Red_Messiah [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

what's this thread actually about?

Nobody.

Circe demands certain thing9s, so what's a good crew to do?

[Sadre Spinegnawer]

Originally Posted by Red_Messiah [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

what's this thread actually about?

Easy:
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[Daldaen]

Did some raids last night at a designated time, got some Luclin pixels. 10/10 would raid Luclin again.

Also did some Kael raids, a pal warrior got KT boots, gloves, Vindi and Statue BPs. Many pixels acquired, was a good night.

[maskedmelon]

I read about soy last night and thought about the need for another great flood.

[Ravager]

Originally Posted by Juryiel [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

As far as the unevenness, sure, each person who joins can wait a year to get to that 'attendance % of loot' with /random if they want. I would still prefer to force it to immediately be as close as possible. And the short term unevenness is itself terrible even if it did even out eventually - imagine the instability of having to /random for how much you will be paid based on your salary. In the long term it would even out, but at any given time you might be very screwed or very lucky. Most people would prefer the certainty of a steady middle number than the highs and lows that /random brings.

I'd compare it more to a slot machine than to a job. There's no guarantee that a certain piece of loot will ever drop for the life of the server for anyone, let alone guild X if the RNG gods don't favor you. A great part of the problem is due to trying to pay everyone with slot machine payoffs; payoffs that can't be divided evenly.

Of course maybe the job analogy does work in that the people running things still have to pay their employees, even if they themselves take a loss on the job. That is, they pay them if they expect anyone to keep working for them.

Generally I don't think we disagree. I think finding the perfect loot system is basically impossible or at least very difficult. It's not that people haven't bothered, a lot of thought goes into these systems and how each guild implements their own instance. It's just not easy to balance, and not easy to decide what to reward.

But I'm not sure I buy your assertion that DKP is worse than random. You're welcome to demonstrate it if you care to by applying it to the actual structure of EQ and people's behavior, but I bet you'll find /random to be terrible in the more realistic non-ideal case, and DKP to be imperfect but OK when you do.

Well, it'll remain a matter of philosophy unless raw numbers can be produced showing the outcomes of both systems over, say, a year's time, but the cost of gathering that information in terms of time and effort is more than I want to pay, and you probably don't care to pay it either.

[khysanth]

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