Why are p99 devs trying to make Green non-classic and ignoring proof?

[Canelek]

Valley trash complains about games he doesn't want to play. Good work!

[skorge]

OP, read this and then you may change your mind:

To start, in 1999/2000, nobody knew that the guise would be changed. People did not bother farming it for all of their alts because they thought that it would be in the game FOREVER (some people didn't even loot it on their main because it's a common drop on an easy camp - they could come back later and do it with a friend). A classic server can not recreate this. People know. The whole P99 server knows. It is impossible unless you have one of those Men In Black thingies that wipe your brain. No server will ever be true to classic because of this.

Adding a feature such as list actually helps a classic server in the sense of it reduces the number of items on the server emulating classic.

Image if in 1999, everyone knew the exact date the manastone was going to be removed from the start of the server? IT WOULD BE CHAOS! Did that happen? No. But if it did, rule sets would have been changed, no doubt. Here's what's crazy: I would even venture out to say that most people didn't even want the manastone back then. It can be hard to believe this, but put yourself in these people's shoes: It was an easy camp, several dropped a day...you think to yourself "I can always come back and camp one later. It's not worth much and I can't even use it." Well little did these people know it would be removed from the game. This changes EVERYTHING.

Almost every item, minus rubicite was given no fair warning. Rubicite was only given 1-2 weeks. A rubicite breastplate only dropped once every 12-24 hours on average in classic (way rarer than manastone) - this is nothing like the manastone where several drop a day. All other big item camps were group content (GEBs, Yaks, etc) or super rare pops (ie Bilge, GBS, etc).

This leaves you with exp camps and people KSing for exp. Yes this went on in classic (early 1999). But after reading the above, the rules Verant created would have been changed from the get go if people knew guises and manastones would be removed from the game (as this would create a mad rush to loot and secure them - the faster people level the more manastones/guises they can get).

I hope this helps you.

[Jimjam]

Not sure what OP is even mad about. Neither blue nor green follow the 2000 PNP.

Pre-PNP (1999) GMs were free to enforce their server as they saw fit, whether through neglect or meddling.

P1999 chosing meddling is 100% classic. Sorry you played on a neglect server (which would also have been 100% classic if the people making the CSR decisions had decided to go down that route).

If anything you should be mad the 2000 PNP isn't enforced on blue and you ahould be mad we aren't strong armed into sharing via 'turn taking' on EVERYTHING.

[Ghilran]

Did none of you played on official TLPs servers? PNP was famously not enforced on these servers AND a lot of them had a boxing problem. Bottom l line is it never was much of a problem for most of the content, and was really only visible on the raid scene where DPS races were the norm. I've never been a fan of those but they are arguably as good a way to distribute loot as FTE is.

[Daud]

Originally Posted by Jimjam [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Not sure what OP is even mad about.

I'm not sure why people think OP is mad. Having a different opinion, one with at least some historical support, doesn't make someone mad.

I don't want what OP posted about, but, I also don't get the name calling dog pile that's going on or why it's being allowed to continue. Y'all seem to not understand who's actually being shitty in this thread because it isn't OP.

[loramin]

Originally Posted by Daud [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'm not sure why people think OP is mad. Having a different opinion, one with at least some historical support, doesn't make someone mad.

This is true, and if there was just this thread in isolation I'd 100% agree with you. Minority opinions are great, and are too often "shouted down" here.

... but that's not what's happened in this case. Far from being "shouted down", OP has been trying to hijack every Green thread for the past month or so to argue over this Green decision. He feels very passionately (mad) about.

[a_gnome_collector]

Originally Posted by Zuranthium [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The first year of Everquest was characterized by DPS being king when it came to camping things. Nobody owned any camp/NPC and nobody was entitled to anything, unless they earned it by doing the most damage to the target they wanted. Not everyone would try to play like that, many people chose to avoid competing somewhere that was "already camped", but it's the FACT of how the game was and how it was enforced. "Killing stealing" did not exist in terms of breaking any kind of rule (so long as it wasn't someone stalking another player everywhere), it was only a term that some players used to define competition, and a way of trying to blacklist the opposition.

Aside from the fact that the original EQ devs said they wanted a hands-off approach, and competing via damage for NPCs was explicitly allowed, until instituting the Play Nice Policy in 2000, there are also in-era documentations of these facts from players. Look at these quotes from an article written August 1999: http://everquest.allakhazam.com/edit...l_Stealing.htm







The player who wrote this was just Level 30, yet already had ample experience with having to regularly fight over NPC's. It was a thing, all over the place. An integral part of the game, and of the roleplaying aspect of the game even. Stop trying to deny it.

This player, who describes themself as "good-aligned" and "anti KS", also advocates creating trains as a method of competition:



Again, something that was part of the game. They mention that by this point in EQ, you were not allowed to explicitly train directly onto a player. But fearing a mob or running mobs through a zone, using legal pathing, with the intent of dumping them somewhere to create chaos? Allowed.

The game is supposed to be wild and unpredictable, fully interactive, with players being able to make impactful decisions on the gameplay and society. It's not supposed to be a stagnant pixel farm. The current proposed item camp rule for Green, turns the game into something more mechanical than ever, a literal pixel treadmill. Just /list yourself and go afk in a zone all day, never having to fight anything, and just getting the item you want eventually. This absolute mindlessness and on-the-rails, spoon-fed gameplay is not at all what classic EQ ever was or was supposed to be.

At the very least, the 2000-era Play Nice Policy made people actually have to kill the NPCs during their turn in the rotation, and have to pay attention to the camp if they didn't want to die from adds or someone else's failed pull, when sitting there waiting their turn. Play the damn game!

Sir you are nothing but trash. Go get a job and a life plz.

[Ennewi]

On a teams PvP server, the lack of PNP might work. Then, at least it wouldn't just be a DPS race but a question of where all classes would focus their attention between PC and NPC targets. You don't win the DPS race if we kill off your Wizards. Now your team has to hide those few remaining (shrunken) casters from our left mouse-clicks, encircling them with Ogres/Trolls like elephant calves in a herd and dedicating healers to each, otherwise we pick them off one by one. This puts the MA in jeopardy, especially if we all decide to focus him down at 15% because one of your Clerics was late in the rotation or, lom, tried to get the most out of a CHeal.

That allows for a more equal playing field, where all classes could potentially swing the fight in either direction. A DPS race in PVE would be all reward for burst damage classes and no risk other than their reputation, which wouldn't matter once they chased everyone off "their" server.

A degree of risk has to be in place for damage dealers, otherwise it devolves into casual griefing. It wouldn't be much different if priests and paladins were able to heal NPCs, causing a group or raid to wipe with a single well-timed cast of torpor or celestial. Heal classes could also then counter or undo the DPS done to a target by the opposing force, making them equally valuable.

Ex. #1: If a Cleric happens upon a Mage who is about to win a fight against Quillmane, but the Cleric greater heals old horsefeathers and then chain stuns the elemental pet(s), Mage eats a glorious death and Cleric earns a relatively easy, but still slow solo QM kill. This extends into raid territory as well.

Ex. #2: All waves of the Ring War have been defeated and a "team" awaits Narandi's spawn as another starts logging in by the river. Narandi spawns and other team begins the DPS race. But now, instead of simply trying to down Narandi ASAP, the original raid leader is calling on Clerics to switch rotation from MA to Narandi while Enchanter rune. MA happens to be SK, so they FD the aggro which jumps to other team's DPS. Original team waits until opposition numbers thin out, then reestablishes heals on MA and resumes as before.

Ex. #3: If your SK tries to snipe my Paladin's Ancient Cyclops with Harm Touch and DOTs, I should be able to Lay on Hands it and cure its poisons/diseases. And, in doing so, I would dump a lot of previously built hate, forcing you to tank the AC while I went on the offensive. It would even make sense from a RP perspective, with the enemy of my enemy being my friend.

TL;DR...
If you want to kill steal, I ought to be able to heal the kill, preventing my target from dying or delaying its death while I send out tells for allied DPS to port in.

[kjs86z]

Originally Posted by Pico [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

every time i see op avatar I just know I'm about to read something embarrassing

[Daud]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This is true, and if there was just this thread in isolation I'd 100% agree with you. Minority opinions are great, and are too often "shouted down" here.

... but that's not what's happened in this case. Far from being "shouted down", OP has been trying to hijack every Green thread for the past month or so to argue over this Green decision. He feels very passionately (mad) about.

Out of curiosity, I looked through his post history for that last couple weeks since you mentioned it and he's not name calling on the same level that is happening in this thread. He isn't writing paragraphs of condescending trolling like you are, or calling people aspy, sociopath, trash, or a dickhead, and all the rest on in this thread that's been thrown at him. That seems to be mostly on you guys.

As far as "hijacking", he's got one or two posts in most threads, and if it isn't talking about green he doesn't bring it up. The times he does being up the PNP/DPS race shit, it's at the very least tangentially related to the thread subject or it's responses and again, only a couple posts. Sorry, I'm really just not seeing anything super unreasonable to just justify giving all you guys a free pass to shit all over a Server Chat thread. If he was spamming a bunch of mindless shit like red posters, sure, I could see what you mean, but it isn't even close.

I don't know the guy, I don't even agree with his opinions, but what you're saying doesn't seem to be happening in his post history, at least for the last month like you stated. The only reason I even took notice on this was your response in particular. You're a pretty level headed and helpful guy in these forums, but in this case you seem to be vastly, vastly, overstating OP's post history and just running with the mob. It's just overall really strange. Usually I'd report and move on, but this forum doesn't seem to have a report function (unless I'm really just missing it). There should have been some forum vacation time for a lot of you instead of just a move to RNF regardless of how you felt about a literal handful or two of OP's posts in the past month.