Game Mechanics: Warrior aggro procs are probably wrong

[Splorf22]

First, I want to emphasize that I can't be 100% sure about all this. I may be setting myself up for another classic beatdown by Nilbog. That disclaimer aside, here goes

The Warrior epic proc should be an AC/ATK debuff

I was having a conversation with Vonhammer (Arteker on these forums, hopefully I can get him to post here) and he said that the warrior epic was upgraded in early Luclin. There is considerable evidence that the original proc was an AC/ATK debuff (I mean, the spell text is 'weakened' which certainly doesn't match a +hate proc).

http://web.archive.org/web/200208271...&pg=1&sortby=1

Originally Posted by everlore

EFFECT: Rage of Vallon ( Target debuffer spell that reduces HP/AC/ATK by 100/40/11 for about a 2min period )

http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=2630

Originally Posted by allakhazam Jan 2001

Effect: Rage of Vallon DMG 100 ATK -40 AC -35

Originally Posted by allakhazam Feb 2001

Rage of Vallon
Decrease Current Hitpoints by 100 (L1)
Lowers you on the target's hate list by 500

as per the spdat.eff file

Originally Posted by allakhazam jun 2001

The point of the proc is to raise hate since warriors had a much harder time to taunt in Kunark post 50. And you're not reading the spdat correctly, for spells that lower you on aggro it says Negative numbers, not positive. For example, Jolt/Cinder Jolt lower your aggro and the spdat says "Lower you on hate list by -500", whereas Rage of Vallon says "Lower you on hate list by 500". It's just bad wording from EqCaster.

http://www.thesteelwarrior.org/forum...hp/t-6905.html

Originally Posted by Steel Warrior 4/2004

Rage of Zek - 500 (used to have ac debuff)
Rage of Vallon - 500 (used to have ac debuff)

http://www.castle-grounds.co.uk/eq/epiclink.htm

Originally Posted by Oldschool

The Proc is Fire based, and the effect reduces the targets AC by 12, as well as providing a magic DD of 175 damage. The AC Debuff lasts 3 minutes.

The Blade of Stategy Proc is also Fire based, and is 100DD as well reducing a Mobs ATK by 40 and their AC by 11 for 2 minutes.

The Blade of Tactics is a right clickable effect, which increases Dex by 40, ATT by 30, and AC by 12. This also lasts 2 minutes.

Conclusion: The information from the last link looks by far the best to me. -40ATK and -11AC makes far more sense then the reverse (40AC is a huge increase in damage). My guess is that the original intent was +hate (as evidenced in the spell file) but they didn't get it implemented in time so they went with the AC debuff.

Most procs (and by extension spells in general) are generating far too much hate

I did the following test with Cucumbers and Coeur (and even Dagorn for a bit). Our method was: Warrior 1 would attack the mob until he procced. Warrior 2 would then attack with nonproccing weapons until the mob turned to face him. We added up the number of primary and secondary attacks, weighted them by damage bonus+weapon damage, and any difference should be the hate value of the proc. Our results:

Warrior A                        	Warrior B	APH	APD	ASH	ASD	AHATE	BPH	BPD	BSH	BSD	BHATE	Diff	Spell	     Estimate								
Epic+Star of the Guardian	Dagas+Ixi Sceptre	22	14	21	14	844	46	11	31	15	1477	633	Rage of Vallon	600								
Yak Scim+Ixi Sceptre      	GuardianStar+Epic	14	8	0	15	266	28	14	14	14	896	630	Ykesha	        575								
Veridix+Ixi Sceptre         	Dagas+Ixi Sceptre	27	13	16	15	888	56	11	26	15	1622	734	Force Shock	679								
SarnakWarhammer+Shield         	Ixi Sceptre+Epic	84	9	0	0	1680	56	15	37	14	1974	294	Stun     	250								
Malevolent RB+Ixi Sceptre	Dagas+Ixi Sceptre	16	13	9	15	519	47	11	19	15	1319	800	Froglok Poison	750								
Yak Scimitar+Shield        	Ixi Sceptre+Epic	29	8	0	0	551	27	15	31	15	1167	616	Ykesha    	575								
2x Disease Cloud            	Dagas+Ixi Sceptre	0	0	0	0	0	39	11	18	15	1128	1128	Disease Cloud	550								
2x Shadow Vortex           	Dagas+Ixi Sceptre	0	0	0	0	0	40	11	16	15	1120	1120	Shadow Vortex	550								
SarnakWarhammer+Shield         	Ixi Sceptre+Epic	10	9	0	0	200	19	15	13	14	676	476	Stun         	400

So for example on the first row I had 22 primary hits and 21 secondary hits; Cucumbers had 46 primary hits and 31 secondary hits. The difference in hate was about 600. These values in general seem substantially higher than what is reported on the forums:

http://www.thesteelwarrior.org/forum...hp/t-6905.html

Originally Posted by Steel Warrior 4/2004

The relative amount of hate that stuns generate was derived from many hours of testing stun agro from pally stun spells (the unknown variable) to SK hate spells (the known constant). I forget who did the testing now, but the evidence was conclusive and can be easily reproduced. They where able to come up with ~450 hate for a stun, which also seems to match the "feel" of a stun proc.

Originally Posted by Steel Warrior 4/2004

ac debuffs should also be added around 400

http://www.thesteelwarrior.org/forum...?t=1157&page=2

Originally Posted by Steel Warrior 6/2003

Slow is second only to Stun for hate spells (that aren't pure hate)

http://www.thesteelwarrior.org/forum...ead.php?t=2057

Originally Posted by Steel Warrior 7/2003

I would say, from best(top) to worst(bottom)

- Hate (EB, TB, etc)
- Stun
- Slow
- Debuff (-AC, -STR etc)
- Snare (Snare or darkness line)
- Blind
- Lifetap
- DD
- DoT

Conclusion: Based on this I think we should see stun=450, poison counter = 150 per, debuffs 400.

Right now Ykesha stuns seem to be 500, while pure stuns are 400. Poison counters seem to be 225-250 which is extremely high. And debuffs are 550 which again seems much too high. Enchanters and shaman may actually be able to live after slowing something!

Major HT to cucumbers for helping me dig up some links and run the tests.

[spoils]

based on this is the fix (if a fix were to happen) considered an upgrade or a nerf to the already seemingly shitty aggro generation on these swords?

[khanable]

http://web.archive.org/web/200108011...rrior_epic.htm

Rage of Tallon: +40 Dex, +30 ATK, +12 AC

Rage of Vallon: 100 DD, -40ATK, -11AC

http://web.archive.org/web/200011101...fstrategy.html

This item was obtained as part of the warrior epic quest. It is one of the two split byproducts of the two handed Jagged Blade of War. The proc does 100 points of direct damage and lowers your targets ATK by 40 and their AC by 11.

Looks like it was changed somewhere between Jan 2001 and Feb 2001 to a +500 hate -100hp proc.

[spoils]

oh also what about the 2hander proc?

[khanable]

Originally Posted by spoils [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

oh also what about the 2hander proc?

Rage of Zek: 175 pt DD, -12 AC

[khanable]

Interesting:

http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/s...tml?spell=1933

Checked warrior forums AND

once upon a time the two hate proc's on the epics also had AC debuffs attatched to them. It seems the effect has gone away but the debuff icon spell remains, though it has no detrimental effects.

My current theory is that originally the blade of strategy was an ac/atk debuff and 100dd. Lasted 2 minutes. Blade of tactics was a ac/atk/dex buff that lasted 2 minutes. Blade of war was 175dd and ac debuff.

It got changed at some point (likely cause Furor was a raging mad man). The 2 minute thing remained, though no more debuff and instead a +hate proc. You can see this guys posts in Feb 01 stating the spdat info: http://everquest.allakhazam.com/user...t#Recent_Posts

[spoils]

lol furor was a badass...gave 0 fucks and openly taunted SoE...

i wonder how they felt about him...he seemed like a force to be reckoned with

[pasi]

Already talked with Loraen about this, but

This is actually a huge buff for the warrior epic proc.

500 Hate + 100 DD = 600 Hate

This is changing to Shadow Vortex + 100 DD + However much threat 40 ATK debuff gives Spells with multiple components give the sum of the threat from each component.

ATK Debuffs are huge for mitigation.

[khanable]

I don't think it should have the +500 hate and debuff component. I think the debuff component was swapped out for the +500 hate component.

So I don't believe it'll be a huge buff..

[spoils]

Originally Posted by pasi [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Already talked with Loraen about this, but

This is actually a huge buff for the warrior epic proc.

500 Hate + 100 DD = 600 Hate

This is changing to Shadow Vortex + 100 DD + However much threat 40 ATK debuff gives Spells with multiple components give the sum of the threat from each component.

ATK Debuffs are huge for mitigation.

is it truly a cumulative of each debuff? or is the ac/atk considered one kind of threat, then the stun etc?

will war epic finally regain bis status as it should be as an epic?