Asking a favor from the two top guilds on the server

[Yajirobe Yajipants]

Small guilds on live did get targets. Mainly because the mechanics were different (read patch days for starters)

It's an emulation of a 13 year old game. Is it too much to ask that the top guilds would allow the smaller ones once in a blue moon to gain access to some raid targets?

Why are you so anti this? What is it with you ?

You're preaching to the choir. When TMO was rightfully raid suspended, BDA (comprised of current BDA and much of what is now FE) opened the field to everyone else.

Much more recently, the 3 top guilds were approached by Sirken for a "Guild Summit" of sorts. Each guild picked 2 reps and there were 2 or 3 meetings. In the end, TMO gave the server the middle finger and left the table. You can do that when you hold the cards. Greed and some sense of personal superiority can bring out the worst of people even when it truly doesn't matter.

[Tierael]

Rotation idea:

Every month the cycle renews - TMO/FE would not track or engage the following targets during the following days:

1-7 Maestro (after 3-4 months, Innoruuk could be added here)
8-14 Draco (after 3-4 months, Cazic Thule could be added here)
15-21 Fay (after 3-4 months, Sev could be added here)
22-28 Tal (after 3-4 months, Gore could be added here)
29-31 TMO/FE are free to tag w/e they like

Alter it as you like. This is simple, yet spreads targets out for all lower guilds, and gives us something to constantly be tracking and compete for amongst each other.

I'd like to hear TMO/FE opinion's on a rotation like the one I just mentioned.

[Tierael]

Not letting this die out right as an actual idea gets thrown out there.

[Stalahoy]

And finally, don't you think its a bit ironic that you are criticizing players for 'failing to compete' when what makes the competition so annoying is variance, and variance is . . . not classic at all? We have a server where the compass is disabled because its not classic, but the most important aspect of the raid scene is deliberately changed to only allow huge zerg guilds to succeed.

BOOM HEADSHOT

[Stalahoy]

as a member of FE i would be open to rotations, as im pretty sure our entire guild has been from the formation of it. TMO the haters =P

[Hurley]

FE was formed because of how TMO treated the end game of this server.

[Tenlaar]

as a member of FE i would be open to rotations, as im pretty sure our entire guild has been from the formation of it. TMO the haters =P

Not according to posts from other members of FE in this thread. Unless by rotation you mean a rotation of the mobs that you decide you don't really need to kill any more but still will.

[Hurley]

Not according to posts from other members of FE in this thread. Unless by rotation you mean a rotation of the mobs that you decide you don't really need to kill any more but still will.

TMO has held the end game under their thumb on this server and you understand we still need Trak to compete with them in VP right?

100% of our loot goes to members, not alts of the "good ol boys" club. Most of our guild needs epics and BiS gear still.

TMO kills mobs on the reg that goes strait to the guild bank.

[Tenlaar]

None of that is new information. It doesn't change the fact that saying "im pretty sure our entire guild has been [open to rotations] from the formation of it" is misleading.

[maverixdamighty]

Not according to posts from other members of FE in this thread. Unless by rotation you mean a rotation of the mobs that you decide you don't really need to kill any more but still will.

there are lots of different types of rotations. i've openly stated i'm not a decision maker, but i think rotating everything isn't something we should do at this point. People want raid mobs then when you offer some up it's not enough...

[maverixdamighty]

Small guilds on live did get targets. Mainly because the mechanics were different (read patch days for starters)

It's an emulation of a 13 year old game. Is it too much to ask that the top guilds would allow the smaller ones once in a blue moon to gain access to some raid targets?

Why are you so anti this? What is it with you ?

small guilds on live got the lesser priority targets if any on non-rotation servers. pretty sure i've stated multiple times i'm fine with giving up some targets, but again i'm not a decision maker. I am against giving free access to all targets that are current guild priories though and that stance won't change. I'm also against people that want all these targets but don't want to put in any effort to get them. BDA has put in the time work etc in the past, divinity has had trackers etc out there looking, I think i've heard of full circle even socking a mob to get a chance at it (just some examples I'm sure there are more). Those types of actions I can respect and think if you do put in the effort you should be included, if not you shouldn't complain.

[Clark]

stop bumping this lame thread

[maverixdamighty]

Lol, Yeah what happens when you guys get all your epix and pixelz your just gonna let other guilds get spawns? Please. The reason TMO sells shit because they earned it and farmed it. Just like FE would if they were #1. But your not or ever will be, so youll continue to fight and push other guilds out the way, so in the end... Shit isnt gonna change until velious.

Guess we'll find out if/when that happens. Key thing is you are making an assumption about FE, but TMO's history is fact.

[Tierael]

there are lots of different types of rotations. i've openly stated i'm not a decision maker, but i think rotating everything isn't something we should do at this point. People want raid mobs then when you offer some up it's not enough...

The way I see it, there are only 8 targets that should even be discussed (the 8 I mentioned in my above idea). If you just leave it at that, I'm sure people would understand why a rotation won't include the others.

Naggy/Vox? Make an alt army and camp them there if you want it IMO.
PoSky? Not really...
Royals? Yael? Phinigel? Derp
VS/Trak/VP = FE/TMO priority #1 and rightly so

So is Fear/Hate/4dragons too much to share? Every week, TMO/FE would have 2 targets of 10 (if you add VS/Trak only) that they can't tag. That's 20% of the raid targets per week, again, not counting the obvious. And they aren't just giving these targets up to one guild in turn. They give them up for Div/Taken/BDA/FC/FV to have their OWN FTE races.

On top of this, I'm sure the lower guilds can put an agreement on top of all this, that none of us would take any 1 target twice in a row. If BDA got Faydedar on the first rotation pop, I would hope we would forgo the target next rotation.

[Kagatob]

Lol, Yeah what happens when you guys get all your epix and pixelz your just gonna let other guilds get spawns? Please. The reason TMO sells shit because they earned it and farmed it. Just like FE would if they were #1. But your not or ever will be, so youll continue to fight and push other guilds out the way, so in the end... Shit isnt gonna change until velious.

The inherent problem though, is that on live no individual character, no matter how much they raided (with the exception of some main raid tanks), was able to get every piece of gear available for that character before the next expansion released. On live there was no point in which you've "beaten Everquest".

On Project 1999 it's different, when you take into account the fact that the content isn't "new" and the knowledge of how to tackle it is already there, coupled with the fact that it's been over 4 times the length of time since the next expansion was due you get a guild like TMO, who have gotten to the point where their raid force isn't just gearing their alts because their characters are maxed, they are all gearing their third and even fourth characters in certain cases with end game content gear. They have literally beaten Everquest.

This isn't meant as a flame, this is simply stating cold hard facts. It has much less to do with them earning the pixels and the right to sell them and more with they have nothing better to do with their lives than continue to do such and as a result the bulk of the server's population (every single non TMO player) suffers because of it.

The only "fair" fix, which won't happen because of the nature of cartain players and server management's desire to appease everyone regardless of the problems certain group(s) cause for the community, is to remove TMO from the equation entirely, they won't stop no matter what anyone says. But since that will never happen, Sirken was 100% correct, the only way to combat the top guild will be to beat them at their own game and beat the zerg rush with a bigger zerg rush.

Another big reason for this is the rediculous FTE system, but pointing that out only falls on deaf ears too...

[Hailto]

Lol, Yeah what happens when you guys get all your epix and pixelz your just gonna let other guilds get spawns? Please. The reason TMO sells shit because they earned it and farmed it. Just like FE would if they were #1. But your not or ever will be, so youll continue to fight and push other guilds out the way, so in the end... Shit isnt gonna change until velious.

It must be weird to vehemently defend a guild that cast you out. I don't get it.

[Llodd]

small guilds on live got the lesser priority targets if any on non-rotation servers. pretty sure i've stated multiple times i'm fine with giving up some targets, but again i'm not a decision maker. I am against giving free access to all targets that are current guild priories though and that stance won't change. I'm also against people that want all these targets but don't want to put in any effort to get them. BDA has put in the time work etc in the past, divinity has had trackers etc out there looking, I think i've heard of full circle even socking a mob to get a chance at it (just some examples I'm sure there are more). Those types of actions I can respect and think if you do put in the effort you should be included, if not you shouldn't complain.

"people still talking about poopsocking aren't in touch with the current raid scene"

I guess thats relevant for you ( ie if you're being a 13beard old douche that has no connection to real ppl, actualy just anything real)

[kotton05]

well that's a bold statement llodd, prior to the new variance, many guilds would show up at the end of a mobs window like a lottery. i'm glad it doesn't happen anymore.

[maverixdamighty]

The way I see it, there are only 8 targets that should even be discussed (the 8 I mentioned in my above idea). If you just leave it at that, I'm sure people would understand why a rotation won't include the others.

Naggy/Vox? Make an alt army and camp them there if you want it IMO.
PoSky? Not really...
Royals? Yael? Phinigel? Derp
VS/Trak/VP/CT/Inny/Sev = FE/TMO priority #1 and rightly so



added more that I would consider priorities. VP shouldn't be included as there are really only two guilds capable maybe a 3rd depending on how many keys BDA has.

[maverixdamighty]

"people still talking about poopsocking aren't in touch with the current raid scene"

I guess thats relevant for you ( ie if you're being a 13beard old douche that has no connection to real ppl, actualy just anything real)

is this the rants forum? Go make a thread there. Not even sure what a "13 beard old douche" is. I wish I could have grown a beard at 13.

[Kagatob]

The inherent problem though, is that on live no individual character, no matter how much they raided (with the exception of some main raid tanks), was able to get every piece of gear available for that character before the next expansion released. On live there was no point in which you've "beaten Everquest".

On Project 1999 it's different, when you take into account the fact that the content isn't "new" and the knowledge of how to tackle it is already there, coupled with the fact that it's been over 4 times the length of time since the next expansion was due you get a guild like TMO, who have gotten to the point where their raid force isn't just gearing their alts because their characters are maxed, they are all gearing their third and even fourth characters in certain cases with end game content gear. They have literally beaten Everquest.

This isn't meant as a flame, this is simply stating cold hard facts. It has much less to do with them earning the pixels and the right to sell them and more with they have nothing better to do with their lives than continue to do such and as a result the bulk of the server's population (every single non TMO player) suffers because of it.

The only "fair" fix, which won't happen because of the nature of cartain players and server management's desire to appease everyone regardless of the problems certain group(s) cause for the community, is to remove TMO from the equation entirely, they won't stop no matter what anyone says. But since that will never happen, Sirken was 100% correct, the only way to combat the top guild will be to beat them at their own game and beat the zerg rush with a bigger zerg rush.

Another big reason for this is the rediculous FTE system, but pointing that out only falls on deaf ears too...


Not even sure what a "13 beard old douche" is. I wish I could have grown a beard at 13.
13 year old (or at least someone with the mentality of a 13 year old) neckbeard. Though it's obvious you were feigning your misunderstanding of the term.

[maverixdamighty]

13 year old (or at least someone with the mentality of a 13 year old) neckbeard. Though it's obvious you were feigning your misunderstanding of the term.

nope never heard/used that term before. keep it classy!

[finalgrunt]

Been a week. Not a single answer from Zeelot or Alarti to give me feedback from TMO on this. Who else should I contact for this then?

[Sadre Spinegnawer]

you might as well ask someone with OCD to stop always saying they have to go sharpen their pencils, finalgrunt. Zerg only understand zerg. you are asking a (very modest, imo, and not in fact even disturbing the status quo scarcely at all) small non-zerg-like question. Equals: the scene in Star Trek TOS where Kirk gets Harry Mudd's fembots all crazy because he confounds their ROM.

Or to put it in more contemporary terms, you might as well have asked them if you could have their bucket.

[maverixdamighty]

you might as well ask someone with OCD to stop always saying they have to go sharpen their pencils, finalgrunt. Zerg only understand zerg. you are asking a (very modest, imo, and not in fact even disturbing the status quo scarcely at all) small non-zerg-like question. Equals: the scene in Star Trek TOS where Kirk gets Harry Mudd's fembots all crazy because he confounds their ROM.

Or to put it in more contemporary terms, you might as well have asked them if you could have their bucket.

thanks for your expect evaluation. Can you clarify your raid experience again on p99? I missed it.

[Llodd]

Been a week. Not a single answer from Zeelot or Alarti to give me feedback from TMO on this. Who else should I contact for this then?

I think it's fair to say you can forget it.

I suggested something similar about 6 months ago and it was also ignored.

[Woahnelly]

I'm gonna go ahead and nerd it up here for a minute...

I'm not suggesting a merger like sirken did, but what about a grand alliance. when sauron threatened middle earth, different races came together to subdue him.

TMO has proven that they: 1) have no lives. 2) care only about pixels and care not about the server. And 3) are incapable of reason.

div, a-team, bda, and other guilds in the same boat should get together and hash out a plan that allows them to compete for high end raid targets such as trak, ct, and inny. Unless you all want to pay 500k for epic pieces and trak teeth. See: TMO auction thread.

I think that through cooperation, your goals can and will be achieved.

[Woahnelly]

a lot of you have common goals, common interests, and most of all, a common enemy. so, maybe it's time to do something about it

+1

[Sadre Spinegnawer]

it's a trap

[Kagatob]

The inherent problem though, is that on live no individual character, no matter how much they raided (with the exception of some main raid tanks), was able to get every piece of gear available for that character before the next expansion released. On live there was no point in which you've "beaten Everquest".

On Project 1999 it's different, when you take into account the fact that the content isn't "new" and the knowledge of how to tackle it is already there, coupled with the fact that it's been over 4 times the length of time since the next expansion was due you get a guild like TMO, who have gotten to the point where their raid force isn't just gearing their alts because their characters are maxed, they are all gearing their third and even fourth characters in certain cases with end game content gear. They have literally beaten Everquest.

This isn't meant as a flame, this is simply stating cold hard facts. It has much less to do with them earning the pixels and the right to sell them and more with they have nothing better to do with their lives than continue to do such and as a result the bulk of the server's population (every single non TMO player) suffers because of it.

The only "fair" fix, which won't happen because of the nature of cartain players and server management's desire to appease everyone regardless of the problems certain group(s) cause for the community, is to remove TMO from the equation entirely, they won't stop no matter what anyone says. But since that will never happen, Sirken was 100% correct, the only way to combat the top guild will be to beat them at their own game and beat the zerg rush with a bigger zerg rush.

Another big reason for this is the rediculous FTE system, but pointing that out only falls on deaf ears too...

[finalgrunt]

merge / alliance / work together = all the same imo.

i know a lot of you didnt like my post, but i was trying to be realistic based on what i've seen come from similar threads in the past.

a lot of you have common goals, common interests, and most of all, a common enemy. so, maybe it's time to do something about it

Sorry I'm not giving this up yet. FE answered me already, TMO remains silent though. Shows some lack of respect but, I guess they need some time. However a simple "it's under discussion" or something like this from them would be a good start.

And Sirken, what you're proposing is far from what's needed actually to compete. You make it sound like it's only a matter of numbers. It requires much more than that (see other "casual" zerging attempts made in the past and how it ended). Non classic raid scene requires non classic involvement.

We're only asking for a reasonable window where we can go back to EQ roots.

[Sirken]

And Sirken, what you're proposing is far from what's needed actually to compete. You make it sound like it's only a matter of numbers. It requires much more than that (see other "casual" zerging attempts made in the past and how it ended). Non classic raid scene requires non classic involvement.

We're only asking for a reasonable window where we can go back to EQ roots.

if you dont think working together is required, then i dunno what to tell you, because you're wrong. is numbers the only thing? no. you will also need some incentive for members to log in (DKP) for raids, and you will need to set up (at the very least an optional) batphone, or else just hope that you all have enough members on to down the mob, but an optional bat phone doesnt hurt. but if you don't work together, nothing good will ever happen (just like at one point TMO and DA started working together to dethrone TR/IB). and yes, even in 1999-2000 there were batphones in EQ, unless you were a tiny child. guilds had member phone numbers and times when it was not ok to call vs when it was ok to call. batphones are much more efficient nowadays for certain, but they always existed in the end game.

as far as zergs, people use to take pride in killing things with the fewest amount of people (ie: "we killed trak with 22", "well youre a gay, we killed him with 19!" ). but at the same time, i've never seen a guild be like "we only want to do trak with 22, so nobody else come to seb" thats retarded. if their members want to log in and do trak, then more power to them. especially if their competition is to preoccupied with doing things the way they want to do them, instead of the way they need to be done.

again i'll say, a lot of you have common goals, common interests, and most of all, a common enemy. so, maybe it's time to do something about it

[Chokan]

Maybe it's time to release Velious and do the planar re-vamp...

[Llodd]

merge / alliance / work together = all the same imo.

i know a lot of you didnt like my post, but i was trying to be realistic based on what i've seen come from similar threads in the past.

a lot of you have common goals, common interests, and most of all, a common enemy. so, maybe it's time to do something about it

I think everyone knows all this already but are looking for an alternative. When the lead GM comes on and states the obvious without any thinking outside the box or even lending any weight to an idea that isn't all that bad, it really doesn't help their chances.

[Servellious]

Until tmo dissolves good luck on this

[Vladesch]

Put all raid mobs on a 15 minute timer.
Problem solved.

[Tierael]

I've got a reasonable request. How about leave vox/naggy completely uncontested and allow people to do pickup raids for them. I am sure a lot would appreciate this nostalgia.

Not all of us stay at lvl 52, like you Sonaa :P

[maverixdamighty]

Not all of us stay at lvl 52, like you Sonaa :P

they are pretty easy if you have 12-15 toons with level 60 buffs

[Tierael]

they are pretty easy if you have 12-15 toons with level 60 buffs

True. And honestly, when I joined P99 3 months ago, my original intent was to hang at lvl 52 for a month or so JUST to live thru this nostalgia again.

That decision quickly reversed as I grew to know this server more lol

I just like giving Evelinn shit.

[maverixdamighty]

True. And honestly, when I joined P99 3 months ago, my original intent was to hang at lvl 52 for a month or so JUST to live thru this nostalgia again.

That decision quickly reversed as I grew to know this server more lol

I just like giving Evelinn shit.

ya I understand some guilds don't want to go after them, but they are much easier than tal/gor and net you pretty much the same loot.

[Sylexis]

I would suggest a change of all raid spawn timers to even days +6 hours. It forces the spawn to move around the clock and weekdays slowly so it moves into different players prime times, but removes the huge variance windows that are keeping smaller raiding guilds from being able to compete.

Once we know WHEN a mob is going to be up, then we can appropriately discuss a rotation. Right now rotations discussions are tentative at best and impossible at worst because 70% of the populace can only attempt targets on USA evening and weekend times and do not have a big enough force of alts to precamp an entire raid force at the spawn location.

If we know when the mob is due up and we know we are next on the rotation, we can be there with bells on buffed and ready to go to get the mob down and get the timers started again so other guilds get their shots faster on the next go around.

Then add a monkey wrench of a weekly or monthly server repop just to keep us all on our toes.

[Arterian]

From what I understand, the server's primary objective was to recreate the environment of Everquest in the Classic, Kunark and Velious era. As far as I can tell, that has been done.

Said environment, is the zones, mobs, spells, items, etc. It is not Rogean's responsibility to help facilitate behavior as it was in 1999-2001.

Survival of the fittest is my opinion on this. If you can kill the mob, kill it. If you can't, you clearly aren't "fit".

Those with the most time have always "Won" EQ. That is about as classic as it gets. Casual players get casual gear and casual experiences. Pretty simple to me.

To play casually and expect raid loot is incredibly contradictory.

[Tierael]

I would suggest a change of all raid spawn timers to even days +6 hours. It forces the spawn to move around the clock and weekdays slowly so it moves into different players prime times, but removes the huge variance windows that are keeping smaller raiding guilds from being able to compete.

Once we know WHEN a mob is going to be up, then we can appropriately discuss a rotation. Right now rotations discussions are tentative at best and impossible at worst because 70% of the populace can only attempt targets on USA evening and weekend times and do not have a big enough force of alts to precamp an entire raid force at the spawn location.

If we know when the mob is due up and we know we are next on the rotation, we can be there with bells on buffed and ready to go to get the mob down and get the timers started again so other guilds get their shots faster on the next go around.

Then add a monkey wrench of a weekly or monthly server repop just to keep us all on our toes.

This isn't a terrible idea, but I didn't think a Rotation following the format of Kill#1 to Guild A, Kill#2 to Guild B, Kill #3 to TMO/FE, kill #4 to Guild C, etc. would work simply because no one wants to keep track of the turn order for each boss, with spawns the way they are now.

Still waitin' and hopin' my idea gets some lovin'. I'll repost in an edit here in this post, with a small change per Sloan's suggestion.

Edit:

1-7 Maestro (after 3-4 months, Nagafen could be added here)
8-14 Draco (after 3-4 months, Vox could be added here)
15-21 Fay (after 3-4 months, Sev could be added here)
22-28 Tal (after 3-4 months, Gore could be added here)
29-31 TMO/FE are free to tag w/e they like

I know you said Sev is a priority also Sloan, but maybe keep it open? I'd like to say the same about Inny/CT, but I'd settle for 1/3.

[Sylexis]

This isn't a terrible idea, but I didn't think a Rotation following the format of Kill#1 to Guild A, Kill#2 to Guild B, Kill #3 to TMO/FE, kill #4 to Guild C, etc. would work simply because no one wants to keep track of the turn order for each boss, with spawns the way they are now.

Still waitin' and hopin' my idea gets some lovin'. I'll repost in an edit here in this post, with a small change per Sloan's suggestion.

Edit:

1-7 Maestro (after 3-4 months, Nagafen could be added here)
8-14 Draco (after 3-4 months, Vox could be added here)
15-21 Fay (after 3-4 months, Sev could be added here)
22-28 Tal (after 3-4 months, Gore could be added here)
29-31 TMO/FE are free to tag w/e they like

I know you said Sev is a priority also Sloan, but maybe keep it open? I'd like to say the same about Inny/CT, but I'd settle for 1/3.

I don't know about that, I guarantee that if my epic mobs are on the list I will make darn sure I know exactly whats going on with the rotation and when my guild can be there to get it's shot. If people aren't interested enough to even keep track of the rotation for their guild then they don't really need the targets.

[Tierael]

I don't know about that, I guarantee that if my epic mobs are on the list I will make darn sure I know exactly whats going on with the rotation and when my guild can be there to get it's shot. If people aren't interested enough to even keep track of the rotation for their guild then they don't really need the targets.

Fair enough. I just foresee a discrepancy arising somehow. Guild A: It's our turn, trust me, I've been following the rotation like a hawk. Guild B: So have I, and according to my list, it's OUR turn.

Simply asking FE/TMO to not kill 2 targets for 7 days at a time out of every month would be less messy, on their part and ours.

[Sylexis]

Fair enough. I just foresee a discrepancy arising somehow. Guild A: It's our turn, trust me, I've been following the rotation like a hawk. Guild B: So have I, and according to my list, it's OUR turn.

Simply asking FE/TMO to not kill 2 targets for 7 days at a time out of every month would be less messy, on their part and ours.

Either option can still bring up discrepancies but either option is still better than nothing. However with the variance timers the way they are with the new +hrs if in x of it's window could potentially cause the spawn to miss its entire week in your scenario.

Cutting out the variance can only be good for either option, and adding the +6hr addition to the flat days would keep any one mob from getting locked down at a specific time.

[Thulack]

if you dont think working together is required, then i dunno what to tell you, because you're wrong. is numbers the only thing? no. you will also need some incentive for members to log in (DKP) for raids, and you will need to set up (at the very least an optional) batphone, or else just hope that you all have enough members on to down the mob, but an optional bat phone doesnt hurt. but if you don't work together, nothing good will ever happen (just like at one point TMO and DA started working together to dethrone TR/IB). and yes, even in 1999-2000 there were batphones in EQ, unless you were a tiny child. guilds had member phone numbers and times when it was not ok to call vs when it was ok to call. batphones are much more efficient nowadays for certain, but they always existed in the end game.

as far as zergs, people use to take pride in killing things with the fewest amount of people (ie: "we killed trak with 22", "well youre a gay, we killed him with 19!" ). but at the same time, i've never seen a guild be like "we only want to do trak with 22, so nobody else come to seb" thats retarded. if their members want to log in and do trak, then more power to them. especially if their competition is to preoccupied with doing things the way they want to do them, instead of the way they need to be done.

again i'll say, a lot of you have common goals, common interests, and most of all, a common enemy. so, maybe it's time to do something about it

Not on my server because we had a ROTATION and enough mature people to actually abide by it. Still not sure why this cant happen here. 24 hour window to kill your mob from pop. Hell make the spawn times 6-24 hours shorter so people don't bitch about missed time from mobs staying up for potentially 24 hours. There is a simple fix to this but people fail to want to share things in a 14 year old game.

[Thulack]

Fair enough. I just foresee a discrepancy arising somehow. Guild A: It's our turn, trust me, I've been following the rotation like a hawk. Guild B: So have I, and according to my list, it's OUR turn.

Simply asking FE/TMO to not kill 2 targets for 7 days at a time out of every month would be less messy, on their part and ours.

Easy fix: calenders for all mobs on rotation here on the boards and you have a officer post when you killed the mob. We all know every guild that raids on this server has atleast 1 officer that watches these forums like a hawk.

[Tierael]

Either option can still bring up discrepancies but either option is still better than nothing. However with the variance timers the way they are with the new +hrs if in x of it's window could potentially cause the spawn to miss its entire week in your scenario.

Cutting out the variance can only be good for either option, and adding the +6hr addition to the flat days would keep any one mob from getting locked down at a specific time.

I would be fine with TMO killing Tal on the 21st of the month at 11:50 PM (10 min before he would become FFA for smaller guilds), then have the spawn literally go until the 29th at 12:10 AM (10 min after he is no longer FFA for smaller guilds). At least we would have that week of hopes and dreams!

[Zzznake Doctur]

Faydedar
Severilous
Talendor
Gorenaire
Trakanon
Maestro of Rancor
Dracoliche
Innoruuk
Cazic Thule
Venril Sathir
Lord Nagafen
Lady Vox
Plane of Sky


why not start with Vox,
Nagafen |
Noble Dojorn Overseer of Air The Hand of Veeshan?



Only that list the only thing im not 100% certain TMO doesnt insta-kill is the entirety of Plane of Sky.

You ARE aware that TMO uses deleveled, fully geared, epicced lvl 52 toons to kill Naggy and Vox right?

Yea -- good luck to a PUG of under-geared lvl 50s competing with that.

AND btw Velious is only going to make things WORSE; the people who say otherwise are simply delusional.

What do ya think is gonna happen once people are Velious geared and can one group / dou / trio Kunark dragons? You think they're just gonna stop killing them? HAHAAHAHA, good one!

[Lyra]

kill the king.

Kind of sad really, as from my minor interactions with the king, he seemed like a reasonable guy.

But...off with his head!

[Lyra]

honestly i feel bad for people whose entire raid experience is based on non competitive rotations.

I experienced both. While participating in the rotations, I didn't feel like anything was lacking in my gaming experience. I was immersed in my guild experience, and I didn't care what anyone else was doing. Our accomplishments weren't diminished by what other guilds were doing.

I've always said, if you weren't world first, you weren't first. I've never been world first (although I think my guild became world first after I quit EQ)

I did experience server firsts, and they do hold special memories, but all it is now is memories...

I think I read you came from a PvP environment. A lot of the population doesn't play competitive against other players. I'm only playing against the content.

[Llodd]

and im very sorry to hear that, but my server and MANY OTHERS did not have a rotation (see how that straw man argument fails?), and only time will tell if the players are "mature" enough to agree to something like that. but MOST servers, did not in fact have a rotation, because most players did not want a rotation or could not agree to a rotation. honestly i feel bad for people whose entire raid experience is based on non competitive rotations. that said, its completely up to the players to decide and then work out how they will handle raid mobs.

look, let me try another approach. lets say we all live in a kingdom, and for whatever reason you and a few people decide that the King is a piece of shit, and that his laws are garbage. well, it would be next to impossible to simply start your own kingdom, and make your own rules, because the true king would have you all beheaded. first you must kill the king by whatever means required. and then after the king has been killed by the usurpers, and they become the new kings, they get to set the new rules for the kingdom.

basically trying to do anything different in the raid scene requires 1 of 2 things to happen. either 1) the King agrees with you and your ideas. or 2) you must kill the king.

and it does not appear the king agrees, so you're down to option 2.

And what if God decrees the peasants should have their day in the sun? It really wouldn't take anything away from the king's ability to continue to lead his selfish and debauched lifestyle.

It's just not making sense why God would not find such a small request beneficial to the kingdom as a whole.

[Sirken]

I experienced both. While participating in the rotations, I didn't feel like anything was lacking in my gaming experience. I was immersed in my guild experience, and I didn't care what anyone else was doing. Our accomplishments weren't diminished by what other guilds were doing.
I think I read you came from a PvP environment. A lot of the population doesn't play competitive against other players. I'm only playing against the content.

you just touched on something i was talking about in a R99 thread. but you're correct, theres more than one way to skin a cat, just like there's more than one way to play EQ. and that doesn't mean one style is better or worse, nor does it mean one style is right and one style is wrong. one of the best things about EQ is that you can play the game just about anyway you want and still manage to have fun.

so if you're having fun, all the more power to you! because that's all that matters. but if you are not having fun, (and im not singling you or anyone else out, just saying in general terms) then that player needs to make some changes. maybe those changes involve how they play the game, or maybe those changes involve killing the king, and starting new rules.

but to be blunt, this is not Skyrim where the entire world is your oyster and exists only to make you (again, not picking on "you", i'm using the word in general terms) feel happy and make the player feel special. In EQ and on p99, other players will in deed have a huge impact on the world around you and whats available. because in EQ, nobody is special (except for nilbog).

[pharmakos]

look, let me try another approach. lets say we all live in a kingdom, and for whatever reason you and a few people decide that the King is a piece of shit, and that his laws are garbage. well, it would be next to impossible to simply start your own kingdom, and make your own rules, because the true king would have you all beheaded. first you must kill the king by whatever means required. and then after the king has been killed by the usurpers, and they become the new kings, they get to set the new rules for the kingdom.

sounds like a "go play on red99" post :p

[Sirken]

And what if God decrees the peasants should have their day in the sun? It really wouldn't take anything away from the king's ability to continue to lead his selfish and debauched lifestyle.

It's just not making sense why God would not find such a small request beneficial to the kingdom as a whole.

its called free will

because just like in RL, God has never come down from the heavens to dictate how we as people do things. it directly contradicts free will. Kings govern men, and gods inspire men.

thats the difference






sounds like a "go play on red99" post :p

i'm sorry u saw it that way. when u have a few minutes, go look up "metaphor". there's a whole new world of vocabulary waiting for you ;)

essentially it means you follow the top guilds' way of doing things, or, you remove them as the top guild. it's happened multiple times on this server. contrary to popular belief, TMO was not always at or even near the top of the pecking order.

[slappytwotoes]

Hey Sirken.. would it be beating a dead horse to bring up server repops?

They would force the same solution this thread is asking for. Once a month seems reasonable.

Revolutions are ugly, bloody and require sacrifice... I don't think the peasants are discontented enough for revolt.

[Llodd]

its called free will

because just like in RL, God has never come down from the heavens to dictate how we as people do things. it directly contradicts free will. Kings govern men, and gods inspire men.

thats the difference

I'm afraid that's not strictly true. The argument for a God in RL is not proven and possibly never can be. But in p1999 s/he exists and it is unequivocally undeniable.

It is not the king that makes the framework of rules by which we govern ourself in this universe, it is God.

[Lyra]

theres more than one way to skin a cat

I had a boss that used that analogy all the time...
Just going to say... even though I don't like cats...that is a terrible analogy!

I'm one of those peace loving hippie types. I like harmony. I don't like conflict. I attempt peaceful resolution all can agree to.

If there isn't one, I can fight for what I want. Though, I don't think anyone has to worry about me yet.....

I am totally against GM intervention.

[Sirken]

Hey Sirken.. would it be beating a dead horse to bring up server repops?
They would force the same solution this thread is asking for. Once a month seems reasonable.
Revolutions are ugly, bloody and require sacrifice... I don't think the peasants are discontented enough for revolt.

absolutely not! i think simulated patch days (full repops) are a truly great idea that will benefit a very high majority of players. im pretty certain Nilbog and Rogean feel the same way based off last weeks staff meeting. but there are still some details we would like to iron out internally before we make any final decisions on it.

and you'd be surprised what the "peasants" are ready for, everybody has a breaking point, even the "peasants"

[Sirken]

I'm afraid that's not strictly true. The argument for a God in RL is not proven and possibly never can be. But in p1999 s/he exists and it is unequivocally undeniable.

It is not the king that makes the framework of rules by which we govern ourself in this universe, it is God.

are you implying the staff = gods? because they dont. and i can guarantee you than Cazic Thule, Innoruuk, and the others do not want players killing any high end raid mobs.
its more like
gods = gods,
GMs/staff = different levels of law enforcement,
players = "citizens"

the staff has no plans or desire to dictate the raid scene to the players. it will be what you make it.




I had a boss that used that analogy all the time...
Just going to say... even though I don't like cats...that is a terrible analogy!

I'm one of those peace loving hippie types. I like harmony. I don't like conflict. I attempt peaceful resolution all can agree to.

If there isn't one, I can fight for what I want. Though, I don't think anyone has to worry about me yet.....

I am totally against GM intervention.
fwiw, i cant stand cats either. Luclin would have been sexier with dog people imo.
oh, and i am also totally against GM intervention ;)

[Llodd]

are you implying the staff = gods? because they dont. and i can guarantee you than Cazic Thule, Innoruuk, and the others do not want players killing any high end raid mobs.
its more like
gods = gods,
GMs/staff = different levels of law enforcement,
players = "citizens"

the staff has no plans or desire to dictate the raid scene to the players. it will be what you make it.


Yep I'm saying exactly that. Staff are the gods and they lay down the law (and enforce it) hey I didn't like your analogy but ran with it. Your explanation above does not explain where the laws come from.

Still don't see why you are so against, actually no that's not the right words but rather not more positive for the general idea that the peasants (small guilds/casuals) should once in a bluemoon have a shot at some bugger raid targets - the top guilds still have their virtual monopoly/competition/namecalling-contest while the small guys get to see something more of the game.

win win imo.

[pharmakos]

simulated patch days would be way better than any of the other ideas posted in this thread.

[Sirken]

Yep I'm saying exactly that. Staff are the gods and they lay down the law (and enforce it) hey I didn't like your analogy but ran with it. Your explanation above does not explain where the laws come from.

Still don't see why you are so against, actually no that's not the right words but rather not more positive for the general idea that the peasants (small guilds/casuals) should once in a bluemoon have a shot at some bugger raid targets - the top guilds still have their virtual monopoly/competition/namecalling-contest while the small guys get to see something more of the game.

win win imo.

ah well, you're wrong. we arent gods. i never meant to imply that we were the gods. we are watchers that try to keep order amongst the chaos. personally i think the raid scene will still get worse before it gets better. if i was any guild besides TMO/FE, i have a pretty solid way to take their mobs, not all of them, not even close. but snatch a few traks and see what happens. and before any QQs about how impossible it is to steal trak, take a moment to stfu and think out side the box for a few minutes. its much much easier than most of you realize.

and my personal opinion on rotations has no bearing on the situation. personally i think they are retarded, unrewarding, and essentially free handouts, but its also not up to me to decide. everybody enjoys different things. you might really enjoy something i think to be dumb, and vice versa. neither of us is right or wrong for our thinking, we do what makes us happy.

but as it stands right now, the staff will absolutely not dictate to the players how the raid scene will work between guilds, and that includes forcing a rotation.

that being said, just as we wont force a rotation on the guilds, if the guilds did work out a rotation, the staff would not get in the way.

[Thulack]

and im very sorry to hear that, but my server and MANY OTHERS did not have a rotation (see how that straw man argument fails?), and only time will tell if the players are "mature" enough to agree to something like that. but MOST servers, did not in fact have a rotation, because most players did not want a rotation or could not agree to a rotation. honestly i feel bad for people whose entire raid experience is based on non competitive rotations. that said, its completely up to the players to decide and then work out how they will handle raid mobs.

look, let me try another approach. lets say we all live in a kingdom, and for whatever reason you and a few people decide that the King is a piece of shit, and that his laws are garbage. well, it would be next to impossible to simply start your own kingdom, and make your own rules, because the true king would have you all beheaded. first you must kill the king by whatever means required. and then after the king has been killed by the usurpers, and they become the new kings, they get to set the new rules for the kingdom.

basically trying to do anything different in the raid scene requires 1 of 2 things to happen. either 1) the King agrees with you and your ideas. or 2) you must kill the king.

and it does not appear the king agrees, so you're down to option 2.

The king needs the people though. The people don't need the king and the King needs to remember that.

[Sirken]

The king needs the people though. The people don't need the king and the King needs to remember that.

the king needs HIS people, not all people. and the people need to remember that ;)

[Funkutron5000]

the king needs HIS people, not all people. and the people need to remember that ;)

The North Remembers, Sirken.

[Sirken]

The North Remembers, Sirken.

fawk.

6 days
4 hours
30 min

[Ravager]

and my personal opinion on rotations has no bearing on the situation. personally i think they are retarded, unrewarding, and essentially free handouts,

I fail to see how a small guild on a rotation with as much likelyhood to wipe on a mob as it is to kill it (thus losing their shot at it) is considered a free hand out, yet joining a zerg force and standing in a dkp line is not.

[slappytwotoes]

The king needs the people though. The people don't need the king and the King needs to remember that.

Yea this is only true regarding TMO/FE's own members. Unless they revolt en masse, the King doesn't care.

An uprising from other guilds more amounts to a hostile invasion from other lands.

Speaking of Sirken's Uprising (patent pending), I don't have guild data but suspect 'the rebels' would be sorely outnumbered (only referring to quality raiding member totals).

[Sirken]

I fail to see how a small guild on a rotation with as much likelyhood to wipe on a mob as it is to kill it (thus losing their shot at it) is considered a free hand out, yet joining a zerg force and standing in a dkp line is not.

luckily, as noted in the words you quoted,
"my personal opinion on rotations has no bearing on the situation"

do i agree with zerg tactics? nope. i spent most of my eq life fighting the zerg (hi Aerist and H.E.C.K alliance)

back on live, guilds use to brag about being able to kill a mob with LESS people than the other guild. if there was a way to create a system that rewarded based on those merits i would 100% support it.

but again, my opinion on this does not matter because im not a player.

its up to the players to determine what their end game experience will be.

[roks1]

I personally am looking forward to the server first Bind Rushing of King Tormax at WL zoneline.

[quido]

I think you will see that the reason the top guilds don't want a rotation is not because they mind the less-experienced guilds getting some kills, but more because they don't want their competition to be guaranteed anything.

If someone suggested a reasonable sharing system that didn't result in the #2 (ahem VDA) showing up and just taking it to further their crusade against the #1, it might get some better support.

I personally would support giving away [insert mobs] every so often to guilds that didn't include TMO/FE/BDA, but the minute FE/BDA gets even a single freebie, I would be against it.

[Ravager]

luckily, as noted in the words you quoted,


do i agree with zerg tactics? nope. i spent most of my eq life fighting the zerg (hi Aerist and H.E.C.K alliance)

back on live, guilds use to brag about being able to kill a mob with LESS people than the other guild. if there was a way to create a system that rewarded based on those merits i would 100% support it.

but again, my opinion on this does not matter because im not a player.

its up to the players to determine what their end game experience will be.

That gave me an interesting idea. I wonder if it's possible for mobs to drop less loot as more people are on its hate list and if that would encourage more or less zerg. But I'll stop derailing.

[pharmakos]

but again, my opinion on this does not matter because im not a player.

you don't have characters you play when you're not GMing? thats disappointing, actually.

[HippoNipple]

I was against blue transfers to red until I read this thread. These blubies wouldn't have a chance. God will not save you there.

[finalgrunt]

I think you will see that the reason the top guilds don't want a rotation is not because they mind the less-experienced guilds getting some kills, but more because they don't want their competition to be guaranteed anything.

If someone suggested a reasonable sharing system that didn't result in the #2 (ahem VDA) showing up and just taking it to further their crusade against the #1, it might get some better support.

I personally would support giving away [insert mobs] every so often to guilds that didn't include TMO/FE/BDA, but the minute FE/BDA gets even a single freebie, I would be against it.

In my suggestion, FE would leave the mobs away. Now, will you use the BDA excuse to disagree with letting others guilds enjoy the content?

And I don't know if you understand that one week of few mobs every X weeks will NOT gear up a guild. It's just cherry on top for very few people which doesn't change the balance of power. I don't believe TMO would be threatened by a guild getting 1 epic done every X months. FE is your competitor, that's leaving X-1 weeks (and even all the time on important stuff) for you to fight against them that battle of power.

[Kagatob]

The inherent problem though, is that on live no individual character, no matter how much they raided (with the exception of some main raid tanks), was able to get every piece of gear available for that character before the next expansion released. On live there was no point in which you've "beaten Everquest".

On Project 1999 it's different, when you take into account the fact that the content isn't "new" and the knowledge of how to tackle it is already there, coupled with the fact that it's been over 4 times the length of time since the next expansion was due you get a guild like TMO, who have gotten to the point where their raid force isn't just gearing their alts because their characters are maxed, they are all gearing their third and even fourth characters in certain cases with end game content gear. They have literally beaten Everquest.

This isn't meant as a flame, this is simply stating cold hard facts. It has much less to do with them earning the pixels and the right to sell them and more with they have nothing better to do with their lives than continue to do such and as a result the bulk of the server's population (every single non TMO player) suffers because of it.

The only "fair" fix, which won't happen because of the nature of cartain players and server management's desire to appease everyone regardless of the problems certain group(s) cause for the community, is to remove TMO from the equation entirely, they won't stop no matter what anyone says. But since that will never happen, Sirken was 100% correct, the only way to combat the top guild will be to beat them at their own game and beat the zerg rush with a bigger zerg rush.

Another big reason for this is the rediculous FTE system, but pointing that out only falls on deaf ears too...

[pharmakos]

i avoided replying to this at first because it started to feel too R'n'F-ish, but...

sounds like a "go play on red99" post :p

i'm sorry u saw it that way. when u have a few minutes, go look up "metaphor". there's a whole new world of vocabulary waiting for you ;)

go look up the words "joke" and "simile" :p

also...

if i was any guild besides TMO/FE, i have a pretty solid way to take their mobs, not all of them, not even close. but snatch a few traks and see what happens. and before any QQs about how impossible it is to steal trak, take a moment to stfu and think out side the box for a few minutes. its much much easier than most of you realize.

i wonder what he meant by this. can you claim a raid mob as a camp if your entire force sits there for the entire 96+ hour window?

[nebulus]

I agree with sirken here.. this is nothing more than asking for hand outs.

[Tecmos Deception]

i wonder what he meant by this. can you claim a raid mob as a camp if your entire force sits there for the entire 96+ hour window?

Sirken also referred to forming a megazergguild as "thinking outside of the box."

So yeah. Lol.

[Ravager]

I agree with sirken here.. this is nothing more than asking for hand outs.

No, this would be asking for a free hand out:

Can I play on your server for free?

[quido]

Hey I can't really speak for my guild, but I can give you my input as an individual.

I have no interest in any sort of cooperation that involves guaranteed mobs for any guild that has killed them before more than a couple times. If people want to be nice and offer 1 out of X mobs for new folks, you would have my support. But anything that is this + any amount of rotation is totally out of the question imo. I'm down to be nice out of the altruistic goodness of my heart, but that stops after two or three kills on the same target. At that point, it's a race. Sorry, but if everyone could have as much of everything as they wanted, this place would suck.

Let's hear a realistic suggestion; here's one I've made before: one out of five pops of EVERY raid mob is to be left up for guilds that haven't killed it for at least 24 hours.

Maybe in the event that the mobs are left up, FE and TMO roll for engage? Sounds dumb but I have a feeling that whole situation would get really annoying really quickly - "UU ENGAGED 2 SECOND ERLY" - BDA doesn't get a roll, sorry jerks you have no place in this world.

Counter-proposals?

[Ravager]

Sorry, but if everyone could have as much of everything as they wanted, this place would suck.

The problem is this place does suck (end game anyway) because only a few have as much of everything as they want and they'd still deny it to others, otherwise these threads wouldn't keep popping up, unless of course you join a zerg and stand in line for your pixels, which I cannot see how that is the more satisfying option to you.

[Woahnelly]

Nobody is saying give up trak, give up VP. The fact is that the way that TMO competes is a total fucking joke. You cannot expect a guild to camp a full raid force of alts at every in demand raid target. Get a grip and get over yourself. Denying end game targets like VP and trak is uderstandable. Killing inny just so others cannot get their epics is screwed up and wrong. I'm sure 99% of you are adults, grow up!

Rotation is not a handout, a handout is a handout.

[Tierael]

This is all null and void unless 2 people agree to something - Zeelot and Sloan. Ultimately, this is up to them. I have seen Sloan's opinion's. Does Zeelot have one to share? Or is it just the simplest answer of them all?

Again, asking only for 1 or 2 raid targets, per week, to not be tracked/engaged by TMO/FE. Out of, how many?

[Splorf22]

Hey I can't really speak for my guild, but I can give you my input as an individual.

I have no interest in any sort of cooperation that involves guaranteed mobs for any guild that has killed them before more than a couple times. If people want to be nice and offer 1 out of X mobs for new folks, you would have my support. But anything that is this + any amount of rotation is totally out of the question imo. I'm down to be nice out of the altruistic goodness of my heart, but that stops after two or three kills on the same target. At that point, it's a race. Sorry, but if everyone could have as much of everything as they wanted, this place would suck.

Let's hear a realistic suggestion; here's one I've made before: one out of five pops of EVERY raid mob is to be left up for guilds that haven't killed it for at least 24 hours.

Maybe in the event that the mobs are left up, FE and TMO roll for engage? Sounds dumb but I have a feeling that whole situation would get really annoying really quickly - "UU ENGAGED 2 SECOND ERLY" - BDA doesn't get a roll, sorry jerks you have no place in this world.

Counter-proposals?

I'm all for competition; what sucks is the FORM the competition takes on this server. Just make the zones PVP when the bosses are up imo.

[quido]

Sometimes it is really stupid. But sometimes it is really awesome.

[Tenlaar]

Almost all the time it is really stupid for everybody else. But most of the time it is really awesome for my guild.

[quido]

Is FE not having fun?

[finalgrunt]

Tell me Jeremy, what's wrong with giving a 1 week window every X (X can be discussed with your guild) for ALL other guilds to compete with their own (smaller) means?

You keep saying handout, when everybody else would be given a chance to down targets. I don't know how you can't see there should be competition involved in this.

What exactly prevents you all to leave a small share of the targets (that you've already killed a hundred times) for everybody else, and you don't need anything from, on an emu server which goal is to allow people to relive their memories? And we're only talking non priority targets (rest are left untouched). I thought sharing toys became a much easier thing only few years after birth :p

And Sirken, I'd rather see you come here and say "I support the idea but we won't be involved" than all the negativity. I know you're doing a great job on this server as a GM, and I thank you for this, but If you've got time to come here to tell us how we should compete in a non classic raid scene environment, I'm sure you'll find time to fix the duct tape & David Copperfield exploits ;) Because this is not Everquest.

Remember, the important term here is not free handout. It is sharing.

[Kagatob]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The inherent problem though, is that on live no individual character, no matter how much they raided (with the exception of some main raid tanks), was able to get every piece of gear available for that character before the next expansion released. On live there was no point in which you've "beaten Everquest".

On Project 1999 it's different, when you take into account the fact that the content isn't "new" and the knowledge of how to tackle it is already there, coupled with the fact that it's been over 4 times the length of time since the next expansion was due you get a guild like TMO, who have gotten to the point where their raid force isn't just gearing their alts because their characters are maxed, they are all gearing their third and even fourth characters in certain cases with end game content gear. They have literally beaten Everquest.

This isn't meant as a flame, this is simply stating cold hard facts. It has much less to do with them earning the pixels and the right to sell them and more with they have nothing better to do with their lives than continue to do such and as a result the bulk of the server's population (every single non TMO player) suffers because of it.

The only "fair" fix, which won't happen because of the nature of cartain players and server management's desire to appease everyone regardless of the problems certain group(s) cause for the community, is to remove TMO from the equation entirely, they won't stop no matter what anyone says. But since that will never happen, Sirken was 100% correct, the only way to combat the top guild will be to beat them at their own game and beat the zerg rush with a bigger zerg rush.

Another big reason for this is the rediculous FTE system, but pointing that out only falls on deaf ears too...

[Nerosys]

Is FE not having fun?

What you guys fail to understand is its not just about TMO and FE other people play here i personally don't think the nature of the current game is fun, what first to login ? meh i like racing to targets as well but at the cost of what ? constant tracking , 3am batphones? i mean whatever floats your boat i guess.


Rotokan

[EnnoiaII]

TMO leadership would be and already is 100% fine if guilds want to contact us ahead of time and say they want to go after an outdoor dragon.

Not saying you have to ask for permission just let's us know not to track it or bat phone it.

Problem is and I don't mean this as offense divinity and other more casual guilds can not effectively compete with FE.

Not to be a slam against FE but they have a lot of new hungry members who need gear from these mobs and will race you 100% on every one.

This puts TMO in a situation where we are just allowing our direct competition access to upgrades and plat sales that we don't want them to have access too.

TMO has a bad rap and a lot of it is deserving but and I can say this truly that if a guild is not antognistic towards us we will be beneficent towards them.

The problem is again FE VDA IB TR there all the same group of core members floating from guild to guild so it makes us look like we are picking on smaller guild.

We currently let some members if taken raid VP with us and I 100% know if divinity needed help on a mob lots of us would lend a hand.

Anyways look up our endangered species program and if you can get FE to agree to not attempt a mob I'm sure TMO will do the same.

Maybe not trak or CT~

Also if you want Inny I want to roll on a mage staff for my alt ~~~~

While this sort of makes sense, it's still crippling the server, and when Velious comes out, those raid tactics will be impossible to keep up with, as you can't zerg anything there (maybe WW dragons if you get lucky with positioning). This isn't WoW, people aren't intended to get fully geared in a month and then sit around bored with nothing to accomplish.

[Fountree]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The only "fair" fix, which won't happen because of the nature of cartain players and server management's desire to appease everyone regardless of the problems certain group(s) cause for the community, is to work to ensure faster content release so that it spreads the raid scene out in a natural way

FTFY. EverQuest is an evolving game. If it doesn't evolve, it stagnates and you get restless players and dysfunctions of the end game and player-based economy. I've been saying this for months and many players agree with me. Your original remarks, while claiming to be fair, aren't very fair to those in TMO, the vast majority of which have been playing on this server for years and are very supportive of the p99 project and good members of the community. But I guess we don't matter because we started raiding/beating Kunark too fast upon release...am I right on that?

[falkun]

FTFY. EverQuest is an evolving game. If it doesn't evolve, it stagnates and you get restless players and dysfunctions of the end game and player-based economy. I've been saying this for months and many players agree with me. Your original remarks, while claiming to be fair, aren't very fair to those in TMO, the vast majority of which have been playing on this server for years and are very supportive of the p99 project and good members of the community. But I guess we don't matter because we started raiding/beating Kunark too fast upon release...am I right on that?

You realize you are playing on P99, a "classic" emulation that is planned to stagnate at Velious? There is another example of stagnation: EQMac. That server has been stagnate for over 10 years. The (established) guilds there manage to have civility between them. Now maybe in its infancy the server was much different, but if you admit that, then you admit P99 has failed to learn from their mistakes. You are correct, TMO fought tooth and nail to become top dog, but top dog of what? encounters that were trivial 13 years ago? Congratulations. You can have this empire of dirt. I'll enjoy my little sandbox for the glory I know it possesses. There is no rush to the end, the end came in 2001 when they released Luclin, not 2013 when Nilbog & Co. releases Velious (guestimate, I have no insider information on this).

Your entire post is based on a fact that is not true for P99 (bolded). P99 is having the exact issues you state will happen here, and yet its the server's fault? That's incredibly ungrateful. You are blaming the circumstances for your misfortune, the same claim you make against the rest of the server when you say, "no rotations, take what is yours." Hypocrite.

[Fountree]

Deajay can you point me to where am I blaming anyone/anything in that post? Also, Velious added a tremendous amount to the game, it's not comparable to Kunark. Yes, it will eventually be "beaten" like Kunark is now. But the server staff has left open the possibility of custom content or a reroll of P99 server. Both of these things will keep the game fresh. If you look at the population of EQMac, its a shred of that of P99s simply because there's nothing to keep hardcore players interested. I am VERY grateful for P99, and I'd appreciate it if you don't put words in my mouth and resort to calling me names for expressing my opinion.

[quido]

god this topic is annoying

[falkun]

You are stating "stagnation" leads to the "restless players" and "dysfunctional end-game" and "dysfunctional player-based economy". Get used to it. This server, as designed, does have and will continue to have stagnation.

[Fountree]

Deajay - I am used to it...I still play here don't I? And I'm not saying the server is unhealthy; we have a lot of new players coming in all of the time because of the sheer quality of the server. New players will always keep things interesting. But I do think that with a lot of these threads and unrest about the end-game and the economy, you need to look at the lack of new content in addition to guild issues (TMO/FE cockblocking others etc.) among other things. That's not a jab at the devs, they're doing a great job, it's just my stated opinion on things.

I have a feeling there's discussions in the works that will hopefully appease some of the haters out there.

[Tenlaar]

I have a feeling there's discussions in the works that will hopefully appease some of the haters out there.

I'm still curious why the exact opposite of what was discussed before happened...

[finalgrunt]

Deajay - I am used to it...I still play here don't I? And I'm not saying the server is unhealthy; we have a lot of new players coming in all of the time because of the sheer quality of the server. New players will always keep things interesting. But I do think that with a lot of these threads and unrest about the end-game and the economy, you need to look at the lack of new content in addition to guild issues (TMO/FE cockblocking others etc.) among other things. That's not a jab at the devs, they're doing a great job, it's just my stated opinion on things.

I have a feeling there's discussions in the works that will hopefully appease some of the haters out there.

Well, I'm offering TMO an opportunity here to appease the "haters" right now (as opposed to a possible delivery from the staff, which may or may not come). Yet TMO is the only side to not answer or even discuss the request at all. I am asking this from your directly, is sharing a tiny bit still asking too much from TMO (I'll remind you FE answered me long ago already like gentlemen and gave me grounds to base discussions on)?

[quido]

If you give a mouse a cookie he just cries that the cookie wasn't enough and tries to enact a ridiculous system of welfare.

Hey I'm sorry bros, if you want to experience this content on the regular with no effort, I'd suggest taking it to the EZ server or something. This is classic EQ and this shit is cutthroat.

[falkun]

@Fountree: And yet the "FTFY" post you made basically says, "the fix is more content." EQMac provided the solution: civility between guilds. It doesn't matter if the fight is over Trakanon or Klandicar, there will be fights over whatever content does exist unless we as guilds and players can decide to treat each other with more respect. Velious will not fix the raid scene, it will just move the fights from Kunark's jungles to Velious' frozen tundra.

[quido]

if EQMac provides the kind of raiding scene you want, why don't you go play there?

[falkun]

Mostly, too much time invested here. I've thought about it. Also, I think its really dumb to emulate Mac on Windows on Linux. If you know a way where I don't have to use Secrets' "fix" to play EQMac on Windows (which I would run through Wine), I might have to give it a shot.

[Fountree]

Yes, there'll still be fights for the good stuff. But if you want the good stuff, why not join a raiding guild? For those who don't want to join a raiding guild, yet still want to raid on your own time, and aren't overly concerned with equipping the best gear, Velious will hopefully free up the majority of previous raid content. I disagree that it won't fix the raid scene. It is not a permanent fix, but it will improve things for a while. Yes, you will still see RNF threads still and guild rivalry! That is classic and I don't forsee it ending unless it happens naturally amongst players. IMO The longer Velious stays unreleased, the more people will reach max status and the end game of Kunark, and unless they quit or move on, Velious will be more and more cutthroat upon release since there would be more capable players to experience ToV, sleepers, and the other tough encounters.

[finalgrunt]

Yes, there'll still be fights for the good stuff. But if you want the good stuff, why not join a raiding guild? For those who don't want to join a raiding guild, yet still want to raid on your own time, and aren't overly concerned with equipping the best gear, Velious will hopefully free up the majority of previous raid content. I disagree that it won't fix the raid scene. It is not a permanent fix, but it will improve things for a while. Yes, you will still see RNF threads still and guild rivalry! That is classic and I don't forsee it ending unless it happens naturally amongst players. IMO The longer Velious stays unreleased, the more people will reach max status and the end game, and unless they quit or move on, Velious will be more and more cutthroat upon release since there are more capable players to experience it.

We don't want to experience 3 am batphones no race 1 minute kills / trains / FTE sheningans. We want to experience classic EQ. And the only way would to be give smaller guilds a small window to do it. Which means you will continue to experience your non classic cuthroat competition (it goes well beyond, and we acknowledge your efforts) most of the time on non priority targets, and full times for others.

And you didn't really answer my question. Is this still too much to ask from a guild which had a free run for a year at the targets? Or is this all about pure greed? :confused:

[Fountree]

I now play on EQmac Deajay sometimes, I came around a few months ago... It's a great server in it's own way (I like to just chill and lvl casually). I can PM ya if u want we can play if u do get it :) ...I play a BST with a Necro friend...we dont have plans to box though!

[quido]

Maybe we should all ask Eashan for Ferraris

[Alarti0001]

Well, I'm offering TMO an opportunity here to appease the "haters" right now (as opposed to a possible delivery from the staff, which may or may not come). Yet TMO is the only side to not answer or even discuss the request at all. I am asking this from your directly, is sharing a tiny bit still asking too much from TMO (I'll remind you FE answered me long ago already like gentlemen and gave me grounds to base discussions on)?

I would like to offer divnity an opportunity here to show up at the next trakanon and compete. BDA, Taken, etc are invited also.

[Fountree]

FTE and 1 minute kills won't be as a big of an issue in Velious with 300khp+ mobs remember. And you need to contact our leadership for an answer to that I didn't come here to talk publicly on these boards about specifics, just to speak on Kagatob's post.

[xarzzardorn]

My suggestion would be to spend a couple hours doing juggs during Trakanon's early window in prime time (his window is common knowledge on p1999) with your raid force. If Trakanon spawns you will have a clean shot before TMO/FE unless you completely drop the ball

[finalgrunt]

I would like to offer divnity an opportunity here to show up at the next trakanon and compete. BDA, Taken, etc are invited also.

If we wanted to compete the way you do, we would have certainly joined either TMO or FE.

My suggestion would be to spend a couple hours doing juggs during Trakanon's early window in prime time (his window is common knowledge on p1999) with your raid force. If Trakanon spawns you will have a clean shot before TMO/FE unless you completely drop the ball

You're suggesting a guild to keep clearing close to a raid target (a.k.a poop socking) for few hours randomly, in hope the target pops and doesn't actually aggro and wipe the said guild? And that's if the top guilds don't decide to join the poop sock session, just in case? (We know they would do it, as proven in the past). No, we really need a 2nd league short window where we can compete reasonably.

FTE and 1 minute kills won't be as a big of an issue in Velious with 300khp+ mobs remember. And you need to contact our leadership for an answer to that I didn't come here to talk publicly on these boards about specifics, just to speak on Kagatob's post.

I did contact your leaders. But I haven't heard from them. At all.

[slappytwotoes]

I would like to offer divnity an opportunity here to show up at the next trakanon and compete. BDA, Taken, etc are invited also.

There's the answer ^^^^^^^

We can end this 40 page thread now.

Compete with TMO/FE or wait for simulated patch day server repops where smaller guilds can pick off low-priority targets.

[Kieu]

We don't want to experience 3 am batphones no race 1 minute kills / trains / FTE sheningans. We want to experience classic EQ. And the only way would to be give smaller guilds a small window to do it. Which means you will continue to experience your non classic cuthroat competition (it goes well beyond, and we acknowledge your efforts) most of the time on non priority targets, and full times for others.

And you didn't really answer my question. Is this still too much to ask from a guild which had a free run for a year at the targets? Or is this all about pure greed? :confused:

Pretty sure ive had those 3am batphones in classic, it happens. So was FTE, you never could just go in with another guild and try to ks the mob while they were engaged. If they wiped however, you were free to attempt. I'm not really sure what game you were playing, wasn't EQ. Join a raiding guild if you want it badly enough, or get yours to that stage. People always want what they can't have or get... lol, and when this happens they whine about it. cycle of life.

As for You're suggesting a guild to keep clearing close to a raid target (a.k.a poop socking) for few hours randomly, in hope the target pops and doesn't actually aggro and wipe the said guild? And that's if the top guilds don't decide to join the poop sock session, just in case? (We know they would do it, as proven in the past). No, we really need a 2nd league short window where we can compete reasonably.

This is everquest, you camp things.

[finalgrunt]

Pretty sure ive had those 3am batphones in classic, it happens. So was FTE, you never could just go in with another guild and try to ks the mob while they were engaged. If they wiped however, you were free to attempt. I'm not really sure what game you were playing, wasn't EQ. Join a raiding guild if you want it badly enough, or get yours to that stage. People always want what they can't have or get... lol, and when this happens they whine about it. cycle of life.

As for

This is everquest, you camp things.

Sorry, but you do sound new here. Variance is not classic. It was added here to try to fix non classic involvment. Non classic raid scene means non classic EQ. Pretty much like duct tape, FTE disputes and David Copperfielding (and so much more that I won't discuss here). It's how the raid scene is, and it's here to stay. Ok fine. But don't talk about classic EQ if you don't know how both worked on Live and here.
Without the variance, I'm pretty sure small guilds would camp such things, since FTE rule would give everybody a chance to get it.
Smaller guild doesn't mean players who don't want to raid, or put some efforts. Far from it. It just means not ready to go to lengths some are willing to go. The request, is a favor to give us a chance to raid like it was on Live (at least for many servers), which was much more reasonable.

[Splorf22]

Variance is not classic.

I think this is really the root of the whole manner. The raiding scene had too many players, so Rogean intentionally upped the barrier to entry. The fix worked exactly as intended: 2/3 of the high-level players threw up in their mouths a little and walked away from the raid scene in disgust. Our constant irritation with this non-classic content overflows every month or two into another 'the raid-scene is broken thread'. At that point Sirken and various players from high-end guilds come in and says 'well, these guys don't mind getting up at 3 am/leaving the dinner table/joining a guild with 150 players in order to play our perverted version of classic everquest, why don't you do it too? You just want handouts!'

TL;DR: Since when is wanting classic everquest variances a handout? The people who want to maintain the current system that massively favors them are the ones that want handouts IMO

[Macarena]

I request from TMO permission for first try at the next VS with my mid range level raid guild. We have a level 25 shadowknight who will do the tanking and hopefully we can get our 2 level 19 shamans on a heal rotation (if they log in). Also please allow us two to three days to mobilize

[Fael]

I havent read this entire thread. However, i will say to the divinity people asking that they need to just chill. An answer to this type of question isnt going to be immediate. Given our discussion of this topic among the guild members and leaders, I am sure TMO leadership will contact you about it soon enough.

One sure way to get denied is to prematurely rant about what you think the answer is before it has been given. That is an easy way to change peoples minds (it already has for a few people)and create bad will. Just relax, keep working on it--i would guess that the majority of people in FE and TMO want to give divinity/taken/and others opportunity to compete to kill trak every now and then.

Dolic

[finalgrunt]

I havent read this entire thread. However, i will say to the divinity people asking that they need to just chill. An answer to this type of question isnt going to be immediate. Given our discussion of this topic among the guild members and leaders, I am sure TMO leadership will contact you about it soon enough.

One sure way to get denied is to prematurely rant about what you think the answer is before it has been given. That is an easy way to change peoples minds (it already has for a few people)and create bad will. Just relax, keep working on it--i would guess that the majority of people in FE and TMO want to give divinity/taken/and others opportunity to compete to kill trak every now and then.

Dolic

I agree with this. However a simple "we're discussing it" would be a good start for an answer. We're in the good manners kind of actions atm don't you think too? ;)

[AenarieFenninRo]

Smaller guild doesn't mean players who don't want to raid, or put some efforts. Far from it. It just means not ready to go to lengths some are willing to go.

While I agree with your statement here, I did mention before going to SOME level of effort should be paramount as part of your planning. I'm not blasting your comment, or saying smaller guilds aren't allowed to raid, but the only things I have seen anyone talk about related to the level of effort the smaller guilds plan to go to is to race each other. I have not seen the proposals that you're willing to track a mob from 5-9 pm on weeknights, or anything of that sort.

Simply racing for a mob when you find out it happened to pop with the smaller guilds is not what I would consider to be a level of effort. Keep in mind when i say this, that the larger guilds may have then known mob X was up for 2 days before anyone in these smaller guilds happened to notice it based on the above.

Are the larger guilds then going to wait 2 days until someone in Div / Taken / BDA / GuildX notice the mob? Not likely. So then the other question arises, does LargeGuild announce to someone in Taken that mob X has spawned? Which guild do they notify? Do they play favorites? This amounts to the large guild then tracking FOR the small guild, with zero return on time investment.

This needs to be taken into consideration when this is all fleshed out.

[pharmakos]

At that point Sirken and various players from high-end guilds come in and says 'well, these guys don't mind getting up at 3 am/leaving the dinner table/joining a guild with 150 players in order to play our perverted version of classic everquest, why don't you do it too? You just want handouts!'

this.

[feanan]

Yeah, they'll be happy to let you have a shot at trak...when velious is out

[Ravager]

Or is this all about pure greed?

Yes.

[Woahnelly]

If you guys actually read the thread, you will realize that nobody is asking for a handout. Second tier guilds are asking for competition among themselves. they are all willing to track and kill. They just don't want to have to track a mob, assemble within a half hour, and find that TMO already has a larger raid force there because they had an army of lvl 60 alts camped at the mob. For the hundredth time, you over-sized children, this is an EMULATED 13 year old game! Share your toys!

[Thulack]

Better way to put my post:The people in charge believe that you should have to do what is needed at all costs to get raid targets. If you don't like that then to bad. That is really what everyone is being told here. Personally i think its to get back at people. The dev's, Gm's, guides waste their free time doing this project so everyone else should waste their free time too.

[oldschooltrader]

For every story like this :

http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?t=103426

There are 10X as many :

http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?t=101136

What once was started as a breath of fresh air, wonderment, and nostalgia has turned into a Costco version of EQ. Everything is bigger here; the bankrolls, the number of max lvl toons one owns and the egos. It will b hard to reverse Costco the server bc lets face it Costco is a successful business bc it puts in alot of effort. Some people have been here over 3 years, and possibly now they r getting a taste of that insatiable appettite of "winning EQ", which is something not easily given up once obtained. Sadly Velious should open up Kunark table scraps for others but whats the point of that?

If the raid scene had one more poopsocking intense guild then 3 would b a crowd for both FE n TMO so that eventually something would get changed but with such big rosters those guilds have its hard to create this 3rd guild as most would rather wait in thier soup lines in the zerg. Both sides make valid points, one hand the big guys invite others to try to compete w them while the small guys just view it as a waste of time.

Rotations work, there is no refuting this, the problem is who decides who is in this rotation and how do prove you are worthy of rotating X mob. No easy solution here but if u have enjoyed playing here for even one week id say the goal of the Project has been met, the rest is up to the community how Norrath should b as keeping the spirit of EQ should b a big part of this game. Hopefully there will contine to b more posts like my first link than the second.

[quido]

P99 as we know it will never really be like the classic you remember. Back then there was 12(?) servers of varying density in the raid scene - people could switch servers to find a place that suited their style of play. Here we have a single PvE server. The timeline has been drawn out painfully long, and that alone has already made this place different enough to not even fully try to salvage it. Wait for the next iteration of P99, hopefully a classic eq progression server with less bugs, exploits, cheats, and a proper timeline. Sitting here trying to turn this place into something it already isn't and never will be is stupid.

[finalgrunt]

P99 as we know it will never really be like the classic you remember. Back then there was 12(?) servers of varying density in the raid scene - people could switch servers to find a place that suited their style of play. Here we have a single PvE server. The timeline has been drawn out painfully long, and that alone has already made this place different enough to not even fully try to salvage it. Wait for the next iteration of P99, hopefully a classic eq progression server with less bugs, exploits, cheats, and a proper timeline. Sitting here trying to turn this place into something it already isn't and never will be is stupid.

And yet, if TMO accepts to share a small part of their overfarmed raid targets with the rest of the server, it would become possible. I wouldn't call that stupid. FE already agreed to this to some extent. I don't see why your guild which had free reigns for more than a year on said targets couldn't do the same.

[Woahnelly]

People like Jeremy continue to hurt this server with their shitty attitudes. Either a) offer a constructive suggestion or b) stfu. Glad to see that you are so unwilling change a thing when 90% of the server is so dissatisfied with end game content. Seriously bro, act your age.

[Splorf22]

Here is what I don't get Jeremy. You have 3 L60 chars and another L50. I'm guessing all of them have an epic/vp gear/full kunark armor/decent amount of sky gear. I mean what motivates you to log in at 3AM to kill CT? It can't be the pixels right? FE isn't in quite the same boat (especially wrt VP) but even Maverix who talking about how FE needs every pixel has two L60 chars, both with the epic etc etc. I guess if Kunark had come out a month ago and we were all rocking L50 chars with classic gear I could see people wanting to be first and so on. But it's been two years and people are still batphoning and making rnf threads about Trakanon. I guess I just don't understand so many people still care so much.

[Sirken]

A+ thread.

just one thing, raid guilds had batphones and used trackers on live. if you dont know that, then either 1) you didnt raid on live, or 2) you were on a hand holding rotation server where no competition existed and as such no reason for batphones or mob tracking existed.

kill the king,
save the world

[quido]

My bard, my second alt, isn't even VP keyed. My monk doesn't have a bracer or shoulders from sky along with anything from VP except for a bostaff. I don't own a Dragon Hero Bracer and would like one for my main. Jeremy is short a piece from PD too. I never really figured you guys believed that PD-geared down to the 4th alt crap.

Call me a hater or whatever, I'm just trying to keep it real with you guys here. You're trying to turn a banana into an apple. Get some realistic proposals.

[finalgrunt]

A+ thread.

just one thing, raid guilds had batphones and used trackers on live. if you dont know that, then either 1) you didnt raid on live, or 2) you were on a hand holding rotation server where no competition existed and as such no reason for batphones or mob tracking existed.

kill the king,
save the world

Oh yes there was batphone and tracking (even though it really started to get widespread with PoP). But there was no such thing as variance, fte rules etc. which pretty much negates all the above, because it doesn't mean the same involvement is required.
As I said, variance was one solution to the non classic involvement which occurs on this server. No need to talk about hand holding, it's like trying to divert attention from the real issue.

[Chedduh]

A+ thread.

just one thing, raid guilds had batphones and used trackers on live. if you dont know that, then either 1) you didnt raid on live, or 2) you were on a hand holding rotation server where no competition existed and as such no reason for batphones or mob tracking existed.

kill the king,
save the world

Another red faggot trying to dictate blue

Obviously not aware so i'll enlighten you, the technology to batphone the way we see it/use it today simply wasn't there back then

Nice try though

[finalgrunt]

Another red faggot trying to dictate blue

Obviously not aware so i'll enlighten you, the technology to batphone the way we see it/use it today simply wasn't there back then

Nice try though

Please, let's remain civil here.

[SirAlvarex]

Another red faggot trying to dictate blue

Obviously not aware so i'll enlighten you, the technology to batphone the way we see it/use it today simply wasn't there back then

Nice try though

Yeah...you might not want to express your points that way to Sirken. He's a good dude. And a GM.

[Tenlaar]

2) you were on a hand holding rotation server where no competition existed

Please note, this is an honest question and not an attempt to troll.

Why does it seem that you actually have some level of contempt for PvE servers in which the player base cooperated with each other in order to compete against the game instead of each other? Every time you post on the subject it comes across as you believing that people who played that way were somehow doing it wrong.

[Woahnelly]

Call me a hater or whatever, I'm just trying to keep it real with you guys here. You're trying to turn a banana into an apple. Get some realistic proposals.

I propose you stop being an asshole. Instead of shitting on what everybody is saying, offer an idea of your own or stop posting. The fact that your main is missing one piece from PD doesn't mean that you need to keep raping naggy and vox.

[quido]

And it's not even about the gear - I just say that because it demonstrates the true breadth of my experience. I leveled a bard to 60 in December and January - Bruce to 60 a year before that - and despite having an epic on Redonk, I haven't nearly fulfilled my bardly aspirations. Loraen, do you really need ask what keeps us here? It's obvious. We love this game, we love the community, and it's fucking fun. I'm sorry that what we have here isn't exactly your cup of tea, but you seem to enjoy it in your own right. I'm sorry it's not exactly as your remember a dozen years ago. What keeps me here is wanting to be a badass in new ways. If I need to sleep, I sleep. Sometimes I press my limits but I've done that my whole life and I never played an MMO until this server. It's not the outrageous chore you people make it out to be - it's wonderful being a part of this guild and this server. Maybe you should start your own server if this one isn't exactly like you want. I'm not saying we shouldn't strive for some positive change, but if you think there's ever going to be an overall relaxed sense of competition here, you're dreaming.

If you want something.... TAKE IT!

[Ravager]

A+ thread.

2) you were on a hand holding rotation server where no competition existed and as such no reason for batphones or mob tracking existed.


People keep saying this as if it's a bad thing. If there were any way to do a legitimate poll I'd bet that the people who like the "competition" on this server are the vast minority and that the majority would rather have "rotations and hand holding".

[pharmakos]

kill the king,
save the world

"To fight the Empire is to be infected by its derangement. This is a paradox; whoever defeats a segment of the Empire becomes the Empire; it proliferates like a virus, imposing its form on its enemies. Thereby it becomes its enemies."

-VALIS, Philip K Dick

[Splorf22]

Loraen, do you really need ask what keeps us here? It's obvious. We love this game, we love the community, and it's fucking fun. I'm sorry that what we have here isn't exactly your cup of tea, but you seem to enjoy it in your own right.

You are missing my point completely. I am not saying anyone who gets a Phara Dar item has won the game and should delete their character and ride off into the sunset. What I am asking is why you guys are still so competitive about content that was originally released 13 years ago and 2 years ago on this server. It's gone beyond getting a character with (almost) BiS gear, now the Alpha Gamers have to have 3+. What baffles me is why it's so important to you to contest every boss mob. I'm guessing you have killed or attempted to kill trakanon over 200 times. Why aren't you even a little bored with him, to the point where you wouldn't consider just playing a different game or something 1/8 weeks? I'm not even asking you to do this, I just don't understand why you wouldn't do it on your own, out of sheer boredom if nothing else.

you were on a hand holding rotation server where no competition existed

Sirken, please don't try and BS me on this one. Mobs on live did not have a 96 hour variance, and this completely changes the game. Here on 1999 we have a server where a) 75% of the content is trivialized by invis/hide pulling and b) the compass is removed because it isn't classic yet c) we have non-classic variance which deliberately removes 2/3 of the population. I'd really like to see you try and explain this combination of factors rather than excoriate the players who don't want to play the batphone/poopsock game.

[Stormhowl]

The amount of animosity towards a cooperative environment is absolutely astonishing. What is wrong with people actually working together to accomplish something as a whole? This degree of competition on this server is frightening. It almost makes a man want to quit altogether knowing that at high end there won't even be a possibility, nay, opportunity, to see a dragon kill. Just to be able to experience it, because there's too much competition for "leet purplez"

I'm not saying competition is wrong. It has it's place in life, and just like everything else, it should be enjoyed in moderation. But once competition has become a poison, a cancer on this server, it needs to be removed. Classic mind-set be damned.

[nebulus]

What's stopping Divinity or any other guild from showing up at raid targets and competing for fte? I bet the top guilds would be more receptive to negotiations if more guilds made their presence felt.

[finalgrunt]

What's stopping Divinity or any other guild from showing up at raid targets and competing for fte? I bet the top guilds would be more receptive to negotiations if more guilds made their presence felt.

Technically? Variance. Not a zerg guild. Not enough bought accounts to camp at a target's feet.
Morally? FTE snipe is not classic. It's only a way to bend the rules on this server. It's not raiding.

[Ravager]

What's stopping Divinity or any other guild from showing up at raid targets and competing for fte? I bet the top guilds would be more receptive to negotiations if more guilds made their presence felt.

Because in recent history, before this thread was started, the big guilds leap-frogged and steamrolled Divinity when they were present.

[Tierael]

My bard, my second alt, isn't even VP keyed. My monk doesn't have a bracer or shoulders from sky along with anything from VP except for a bostaff. I don't own a Dragon Hero Bracer and would like one for my main. Jeremy is short a piece from PD too. I never really figured you guys believed that PD-geared down to the 4th alt crap.

Call me a hater or whatever, I'm just trying to keep it real with you guys here. You're trying to turn a banana into an apple. Get some realistic proposals.

I gave a realistic proposal, but BDA can't be any part of it in your eyes :\

[xarzzardorn]

Loraen, believe it or not, new people join TMO all the time. You have spent this entire thread shitting on the people who sold you a VP key so that you could see VP or loot weapons with -1 delay or whatever. How would you like it if I told you you're a fucking idiot who starts a 1-man circlejerk every time you post? How many times can you charm a mob and pray until you get tired of it?

[Sirken]

Oh yes there was batphone and tracking (even though it really started to get widespread with PoP). But there was no such thing as variance, fte rules etc. which pretty much negates all the above, because it doesn't mean the same involvement is required.
As I said, variance was one solution to the non classic involvement which occurs on this server. No need to talk about hand holding, it's like trying to divert attention from the real issue.

we had batphones in kunark and velious. it equated to some awesome races for Lodzial (Lozdial?) the giant IC turtle. maybe some servers didn't require them.. we'll say for various reasons.

one thing ive noticed (and im not taking a shot at anyone here) from talking with players is that a decent amount of the players on the server were born after 84-85. and i know what your thinking, "But sirken, so the fawk what?" my point is that if you were 14 or younger, you probably didnt have your own phone, and you probably werent allowed to get phone calls from strangers on that "elf game". my point is, batphoning always existed.

as far as the variance, let me try to explain this for the 1000th time (btw, i think i know who the 1000th commander of the nights watch will be.. wait nm wrong thread). the staff and the players have extremely different priorities. for the staff, the variance exists so that no one guild can lock down content. so that they can not manipulate the repop times until ALL the bosses are in the the off peak hours (12am-7am), and then essentially unless you see the mob die, you will not know the repop time. furthermore, no variance guarantees that the top guild stays on top because no other guild will ever kill trakanon or get vp teeth. FURTHERMORE it turns every other guild into a stepping stone for the top guild. Now, SOME of you might say "Sirken, STFU! Some mobs are better than no mobs! wtf is wrong with you stupid GM, what cant you see this?!? you must be teh stupidz!!!1!!!11!!". and to that id say,we dont give a shit about any one particular guild, our interest is whats best for the server, and more over, planning for the future of the server, and taking into consideration guilds or players that may still yet join Project 1999. That being said, taking away the variance makes it impossible for the top guild to be dethroned (without pvp or /guildwar). So im terribly sorry, but we are not willing to just hand over the server to the top guild permanently, so that the smaller guilds can drop inny and maestro twice a month. Now the players dont see it that way, and to be fair, nobody expects them to think that way. Players simply do not think that way, they think about themselves and their guild, possibly some allies, and thats it.

[Splorf22]

as far as the variance, let me try to explain this for the 1000th time (btw, i think i know who the 1000th commander of the nights watch will be.. wait nm wrong thread). the staff and the players have extremely different priorities. for the staff, the variance exists so that no one guild can lock down content. so that they can not manipulate the repop times until ALL the bosses are in the the off peak hours (12am-7am), and then essentially unless you see the mob die, you will not know the repop time.

I think both parts of this argument are just empirically false. First, we have just exited a period of about 10 months where TMO got something like 90% of the mobs. Second, how is a guild going to manipulate the repop times when everything dies in minutes? Noble Dojorn has no variance and his repop time is gradually moving more and more into prime time.

That being said, taking away the variance makes it impossible for the top guild to be dethroned (without pvp or /guildwar). So im terribly sorry, but we are not willing to just hand over the server to the top guild permanently, so that the smaller guilds can drop inny and maestro twice a month. Now the players dont see it that way, and to be fair, nobody expects them to think that way. Players simply do not think that way, they think about themselves and their guild, possibly some allies, and thats it.

If this is true, why is it all the small guilds want to remove variance and all the big guilds want to keep it?

Loraen, believe it or not, new people join TMO all the time. You have spent this entire thread shitting on the people who sold you a VP key so that you could see VP or loot weapons with -1 delay or whatever. How would you like it if I told you you're a fucking idiot who starts a 1-man circlejerk every time you post? How many times can you charm a mob and pray until you get tired of it?

No.

[Fountree]

Sirk got it right imo

[Sirken]

Please note, this is an honest question and not an attempt to troll.

Why does it seem that you actually have some level of contempt for PvE servers in which the player base cooperated with each other in order to compete against the game instead of each other? Every time you post on the subject it comes across as you believing that people who played that way were somehow doing it wrong.

if thats the way i've come across, then i apologize, sincerely i do, because it was not my intention. after 18 months on staff i can not begin to tell you how many threads i've seen like this, and its frustrating to watch guilds continue to try the same thing while expecting different results each time.

and as i said before, theres more than one way to play eq (see: to skin a cat), and that doesnt make 1 way better than another way, it doesnt mean my way is better than yours or vice-versa. but at a certain point somebody has to try something else, or change will never happen.

if you are only specifically referring to my comments about PvE rotation servers, well, we will have to agree to disagree because i do not believe rotation servers had any actual competition. EQ it self is not hard. it just takes time and friends (ie: guildmates), waiting patiently in line for your turn, is simply not competing in my opinion. and as i said in a previous post, anybody whose raid experience is made up solely of being on a rotation server missed out on lots fun, excitement, competition, and imo a true feeling of accomplishment. downing a mob that u know other guilds are racing for and actively trying to kill will always be more rewarding than simply showing up and downing a mob. its like when you go hunting irl, some people go to those guaranteed to get a kill places, where they put u in a tree stand right where they have been safely feeding deer for 2 weeks so that the deer is use to going to that spot every day, and when he shows up you blow his brains out with a .336 rifle. that is simply not hunting, those people should not feel any sense of accomplishment when they down the deer. but the people that dont use bait, but instead use things like footprints in the snow, fresh poop, and removed tree bark to track, locate, and kill the deer, all while making sure the animal is not down wind from them, that warrants a feeling of accomplishment. for extra points in my book, use a bow (i dont use bows because i dont want to risk only wounding an animal, as that would be horrible in my opinion).

now all that being said, i'm simply the CSR GM and these are simply my thoughts/opinions. i do not dictate policy, or anything else, and i especially do not dictate things to Rogean or Nilbog. this is not my server, i do not make the rules. i do however enforce the rules that are put forth, and i also will try to explain the staff's position or reasoning on certain subjects. sometimes i offer my advice or thoughts on a subject in a thread, but thats all they are.

if you think my thoughts/opinions/advice/contributions to this, or any other thread are garbage (and you have every right to think so if thats how u feel), u can feel free to disagree with me, or completely ignore my posts. after 5-6 years of playing/raiding live, 2 years on other EQemu servers, and 3 years on P99, i feel i have seen enough to offer valid and substantial opinions on the subject.

hope that answered your questions/concerns

<3
Sirks

[OMGWTF420]

variance does not help the little guy, anyone who thinks otherwise has been living with their heads in the sand for the last two years or is a member of TMO and does not want things to change.

sure the first few spawns without variance would probably be giant FTE clusterfucks... but eventually the would dust would settle and those left standing would work out an agreement that would be both fair for all involved and more true to the classic spirit of EQ.

classic EQ was about the community working together for the better of their own servers, not roflstomping everyone on your path to more pixels and shitting up people's experience to the point that they either A. quit the server B. join the zerg guild or C. remove themselves from the raid scene and play casually because they realize that poopsocking and 24 hour tracking was not the "classic experience" they came here for

[arsenalpow]

What's stopping Divinity or any other guild from showing up at raid targets and competing for fte? I bet the top guilds would be more receptive to negotiations if more guilds made their presence felt.

have you read RnF lately? Why would Div, BDA, or any other casual guild be a part of that shit?? BDA assumed that 2nd place role until FE formed and it's a nightmare. Competition consists of having your guild infiltrated with spies, RL pictures pilfered/posted for amusement and constant forum warfare and when you finally grow the guild, try to stick to your guns, play nice best you can, then you get to VP where you are trained into the ground.

It's never about just killing the mob, that's the easy part. The hard part is those 4am batphones, dealing with the constant spin/drama, logging in, pulling, killing through FTE shenanigans, trains, and anything else you can think of. You petition, nothing is done, the proof isn't concrete enough or you're told to fight fire with fire.

The template was laid with IB/TR or DA or whoever, then TMO, and now FE. If you want to see high end content on this server you need to track targets for 96+ hours at a time, be willing to log in at any time of the day, recruit anyone with a pulse to make sure you can pull 30-40 players at those odd times, and be mentally strong enough to take the constant abuse for trying to achieve those goals.

Now you tell me why those guilds should do that. We must not "want" it enough...

[Aaryonar]

we had batphones in kunark and velious. it equated to some awesome races for Lodzial (Lozdial?) the giant IC turtle. maybe some servers didn't require them.. we'll say for various reasons.

one thing ive noticed (and im not taking a shot at anyone here) from talking with players is that a decent amount of the players on the server were born after 84-85. and i know what your thinking, "But sirken, so the fawk what?" my point is that if you were 14 or younger, you probably didnt have your own phone, and you probably werent allowed to get phone calls from strangers on that "elf game". my point is, batphoning always existed.

as far as the variance, let me try to explain this for the 1000th time (btw, i think i know who the 1000th commander of the nights watch will be.. wait nm wrong thread). the staff and the players have extremely different priorities. for the staff, the variance exists so that no one guild can lock down content. so that they can not manipulate the repop times until ALL the bosses are in the the off peak hours (12am-7am), and then essentially unless you see the mob die, you will not know the repop time. furthermore, no variance guarantees that the top guild stays on top because no other guild will ever kill trakanon or get vp teeth. FURTHERMORE it turns every other guild into a stepping stone for the top guild. Now, SOME of you might say "Sirken, STFU! Some mobs are better than no mobs! wtf is wrong with you stupid GM, what cant you see this?!? you must be teh stupidz!!!1!!!11!!". and to that id say,we dont give a shit about any one particular guild, our interest is whats best for the server, and more over, planning for the future of the server, and taking into consideration guilds or players that may still yet join Project 1999. That being said, taking away the variance makes it impossible for the top guild to be dethroned (without pvp or /guildwar). So im terribly sorry, but we are not willing to just hand over the server to the top guild permanently, so that the smaller guilds can drop inny and maestro twice a month. Now the players dont see it that way, and to be fair, nobody expects them to think that way. Players simply do not think that way, they think about themselves and their guild, possibly some allies, and thats it.

You make an excellent point, Sirken. Variances are a necessary evil. That being said, you completely ignore the ills that come of the small-window variance we have here, and those ills seem to be what people are upset about rather than the variance itself.

If The longest possible window is 4-days, then the chance of an overlap is rather slim. In most cases, it's completely clear which mob we should be camping at and putting tracker priority on. If Trak is in window, camp at poop-ledge. If VS is in window and Trak is in window, stay at poop-ledge and move alts to VS. The max/min nature of players on this server will therefore inevitably be camped at mobs, and inevitably they'll get 90% of what spawns simply by virtue of them having the most trackers/most alts camped in the immediate vicinity. In this case, we're acting on best-odds, not our own priorities as players.

Now, lets say every target's variance was exactly half of their total spawn timer (ex. Nagafen - 7 day spawn, 3.5day variance = 7 day window) then any target could spawn at any time. Trakanon could still be in window even if you killed him 5 minutes ago, and there would be no clear target to monopolize tracking time and alt-camping. FE and TMO would be unable to prioritize low-level dragon/god spawns and would be forced to focus on VP/Trak/VS. In this case, we're forced to focus on our priorities as players, rather than betting on a sure-thing, since there is no sure thing.

Inny would be spawning during legitimate hate clears and going to whatever guild is up there at the time. VS could be PUG'd by whoever is camping basement when he pops while TMO/FE run their alt army over. Gore could maul 500 passerby's moving from rings->KC before a raid guild even had any idea he was up. Who wouldn't want to play on that rule-set rather than this one? Doesn't that sound a bit more like classic to everyone?

The problem is not that variance exists.

The problem is not that players camp out at mobs they want.

The problem is that there's a period of time where we know what our best chance is, and we'd be morons for not taking the opportunity.

If there was no period of time when you had a best chance then I would actually be able to play my main instead of rotating him between camps.

[Sirken]

"To fight the Empire is to be infected by its derangement. This is a paradox; whoever defeats a segment of the Empire becomes the Empire; it proliferates like a virus, imposing its form on its enemies. Thereby it becomes its enemies.
-VALIS, Philip K Dick
not sure if srs, but your 100% right i think. whoever dethrones the #1 guild usually ends up doing the same thing that the #1 guild was doing.



What's stopping Divinity or any other guild from showing up at raid targets and competing for fte? I bet the top guilds would be more receptive to negotiations if more guilds made their presence felt.
have you read RnF lately? Why would Div, BDA, or any other casual guild be a part of that shit??
Now you tell me why those guilds should do that.
um, because it's realistically the only shot those guilds have at forcing the big guilds into an agreement? not to mention is much easier and requires many less people than you seem to realize. at some point they need to make their presence felt, or they wont be taken seriously




You make an excellent point, Sirken. Variances are a necessary evil. That being said, you completely ignore the ills that come of the small-window variance we have here, and those ills seem to be what people are upset about rather than the variance itself.

If The longest possible window is 4-days, then the chance of an overlap is rather slim. In most cases, it's completely clear which mob we should be camping at and putting tracker priority on. If Trak is in window, camp at poop-ledge. If VS is in window and Trak is in window, stay at poop-ledge and move alts to VS. The max/min nature of players on this server will therefore inevitably be camped at mobs, and inevitably they'll get 90% of what spawns simply by virtue of them having the most trackers/most alts camped in the immediate vicinity. In this case, we're acting on best-odds, not our own priorities as players.

Now, lets say every target's window was exactly half of their total spawn timer (ex. Nagafen - 7 day spawn, 3.5day variance = 7 day window) then any target could spawn at any time. Trakanon could still be in window even if you killed him 5 minutes ago, and there would be no clear target to monopolize tracking time and alt-camping. FE and TMO would be unable to prioritize low-level dragon/god spawns and would be forced to focus on VP/Trak/VS. In this case, we're forced to focus on our priorities as players, rather than betting on a sure-thing, since there is no sure thing.

Inny would be spawning during legitimate hate clears and going to whatever guild is up there at the time. VS could be PUG'd by whoever is camping basement when he pops while TMO/FE run their alt army over. Gore could maul 500 passerby's moving from rings->KC before a raid guild even had any idea he was up. Who wouldn't want to play on that rule-set rather than this one? Doesn't that sound a bit more like classic to everyone?

The problem is not that variance exists.

The problem is not that players camp out at mobs they want.

The problem is that there's a period of time where we know what our best chance is, and we'd be morons for not taking the opportunity.

If there was no period of time when you had a best chance then I would actually be able to play my main instead of rotating him between camps.

well said sir. are variances perfect? absolutely not, and i think the staff has admitted this by making changes to the variance and how it works. and we'll continue to make tweaks as the staff feels is needed to ensure a successful and competitive future for the server.

[arsenalpow]

um, because it's realistically the only shot those have at forcing the big guilds into an agreement?

right. so if you have any sort of morale compass you need to leave that at the door if you want those pixels. I like being honorable, I sleep better at night because I remember there are people behind the pixels. TMO/FE don't seem to have any problem discarding their morality in the pursuit of pixels.

[Aaryonar]

well said sir. are variances perfect? absolutely not, and i think the staff has admitted this by making changes to the variance and how it works. and we'll continue to make tweaks as the staff feels is needed to ensure a successful and competitive future for the server.

Any thoughts on my specific suggestion? Anyone I've discussed it with has been unable to find a single flaw in the logic. If there is no set time, or even a set window, then no guild has a best chance and every guild has an equal chance - like even moreso than a repop day. Why is this not a consideration on the chopping block?

Also, if there are changes to the variance in the future, can you PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE not let us know any specifics? The most recent change to variance would have literally blown this raid-scene up bigtime if the exact equation for it wasn't detailed in the announcement post. I don't want to know when a dragon might spawn. It would be a nicer surprise.

[Sirken]

right. so if you have any sort of morale compass you need to leave that at the door if you want those pixels. I like being honorable, I sleep better at night because I remember there are people behind the pixels. TMO/FE don't seem to have any problem discarding their morality in the pursuit of pixels.
um, are u trying to imply that its impossible to lock down mobs while maintaining honorable status? or are u saying that simply the guilds TMO and FE are without honor because of the WAY that THEY lock down mobs?





Any thoughts on my specific suggestion? Anyone I've discussed it with has been unable to find a single flaw in the logic. If there is no set time, or even a set window, then no guild has a best chance and every guild has an equal chance - like even moreso than a repop day. Why is this not a consideration on the chopping block?
honestly, its the first time ive heard it. but to increase it's chances, i'd try to get in touch with nilbog or rogean via petition forum or irc or PM. as the decision makers probably wont be reading page 21 of a thread subject that has come up multiple times and generally recycles the same exact stuff from the previously similar threads

[kenzar]

um, are u trying to imply that its impossible to lock down mobs while maintaining honorable status? or are u saying that simply the guilds TMO and FE are without honor because of the way that THEY lock down mobs?

I believe what he is saying is that there is a way for everyone to win but the idea is quickly dismissed as a form of 'non competition.' There are ways for everyone to win, but its a nasty 8 letter-word that starts with 'R.' Personally I feel the majority should not suffer to the whims of the minority. But then again, my idea is that R word everyone seems to hate for no other reason than "its not competition."

[Sirken]

I believe what he is saying is that there is a way for everyone to win but the idea is quickly dismissed as a form of 'non competition.' There are ways for everyone to win, but its a nasty 8 letter-word that starts with 'R.' Personally I feel the majority should not suffer to the whims of the minority. But then again, my idea is that R word everyone seems to hate for no other reason than "its not competition."

ive explained countless times my position on R word, and why many others (including myself) say it is absolutely not competition. go back and read my previous posts in this thread.

[Aaryonar]

honestly, its the first time ive heard it. but to increase it's chances, i'd try to get in touch with nilbog or rogean via petition forum or irc or PM. as the decision makers probably wont be reading page 21 of a thread subject that has come up multiple times and generally recycles the same exact stuff from the previously similar threads

What if my favourite GM in the known universe brought it up with them?
:) might have a better chance then, too.

I kid, I kid.


But seriously! Anyone who wants 0 variance in this thread has it backwards. TMO will literally get everything and no rotation will be made ever. If you want targets, you want full random variance. That's your best chance at content, as any other model offers a max/min player a way to max/min it.

[arsenalpow]

um, are u trying to imply that its impossible to lock down mobs while maintaining honorable status? or are u saying that simply the guilds TMO and FE are without honor because of the way that THEY lock down mobs?

Sorry, I'll skip the implication, allow me to directly state this:

Under the current rule set, it is IMPOSSIBLE to maintain any sort of honor and simultaneously lock down mobs.

You're only here to enforce the rules, you've made that perfectly clear; but as long as the staff condones the FTE shenanigans, the "accidental" training, starting DT cycles to stall other guild's attempts, leapfrogging, etc It is impossible to maintain any sort of honor. The "honorable" guild either a) turns the other cheek EVERY single time, or b) resorts to the same dirty tactics that are used by the competition

BDA is a 100% example of this. We have strong leadership at BDA and we were forced to push the envelope to areas that we had never considered before in order to compete. We aren't going to train people just because it's legal, we aren't going to blatantly start DT cycles to stop another guild's attempt, and we aren't going to "accidentally" train other guilds.

As long as those tactics are available for use (condoned by staff) they will be implemented by the playerbase. People will always push the envelope for pixels, just look at the fun that's being had with IP exemptions.

[kenzar]

ive explained countless times my position on R word, and why many others (including myself) say it is absolutely not competition. go back and read my previous posts in this thread.

I've read it. Its anecdotal at best. The variance helps the minority at the expense of the majority. This is coming from a long time p99 raider, with more tracking hours that I'd like to mention. The variance is one option of many. I seem to recall someone saying something about "without change you can never move forward?"

[Emphase]

Any thoughts on my specific suggestion? Anyone I've discussed it with has been unable to find a single flaw in the logic. If there is no set time, or even a set window, then no guild has a best chance and every guild has an equal chance - like even moreso than a repop day. Why is this not a consideration on the chopping block?.

I like your idea a lot, it did remind me of live actually. I've ran through DL a few times and almost ran right into Gorenaire in the process. I agree with 100% variance. maybe some day it will get a shot and we will see it on this server

[OMGWTF420]

or are u saying that simply the guilds TMO and FE are without honor because of the WAY that THEY lock down mobs?



whats honorable about FTE sniping, rules lawyering, training, zerging? because that is how those guilds got to where they were.... isnt it?

[Splorf22]

well said sir. are variances perfect? absolutely not, and i think the staff has admitted this by making changes to the variance and how it works. and we'll continue to make tweaks as the staff feels is needed to ensure a successful and competitive future for the server.

Here is what I don't get, Sirken. I think you are intelligent and sincere. Which is why I really don't understand how you can make the statements you do about variance. It's almost like we play on different servers. You say that variance prevents the top guild from dominating, yet there have been huge blocks of time where a single guild would get borderline clean sweeps (TR for several months after Kunark came out, TMO for ~10 months around last summer) and even when there was 'competition' there were exactly two guilds involved: TR/TMO and now TMO/FE. You say that lack of variance would allow a guild to manipulate the boss mobs to repop at inconvenient times, yet all the raid targets are killed within an hour of spawning, regardless of time. You say that you want competition, yet you have gotten Lord of the Flies. Have you read RnF lately? There is some serious hate there. People are flaming and trolling and spying and trying to dig up other people's RL information so they can harass them there. This is Chest's point: Why can you not see that some of us just don't want to be a part of that, and that it has nothing to do with 'competition' ? And why as staff are you encouraging this kind of environment?

[arsenalpow]

Here is what I don't get, Sirken. I think you are intelligent and sincere. Which is why I really don't understand how you can make the statements you do about variance. It's almost like we play on different servers. You say that variance prevents the top guild from dominating, yet there have been huge blocks of time where a single guild would get borderline clean sweeps (TR for several months after Kunark came out, TMO for ~10 months around last summer) and even when there was 'competition' there were exactly two guilds involved: TR/TMO and now TMO/FE. You say that lack of variance would allow a guild to manipulate the boss mobs to repop at inconvenient times, yet all the raid targets are killed within an hour of spawning, regardless of time. You say that you want competition, yet you have gotten Lord of the Flies. Have you read RnF lately? There is some serious hate there. People are flaming and trolling and spying and trying to dig up other people's RL information so they can harass them there. This is Chest's point: Why can you not see that some of us just don't want to be a part of that, and that it has nothing to do with 'competition' ?

try seconds in some cases, minutes if it's a long pull, hours only if it's VP training or Fear shenanigans

[kenzar]

If there is no set time, or even a set window, then no guild has a best chance and every guild has an equal chance

An equal chance does not necessarily equate to equality.

-100% removal of variance
-strictly enforced rotating target schedule for any guild wanting on the list
-24 hours allotted to down your guilds target. Failure to do so is a forfeit, and the boss becomes FTE.
-Breaking rotation results in raid suspensions. Habitually breaking the rotation, results in a guild disbanding.
-Raid interference (training/starting DT cycles/what have you) is a raid suspension. Habitually breaking this rule results in a guild disbanding.
-No guild is allowed to aid another during the initial 24 hour 'uncontested' period. Breaking this rule will result in a raid suspension of the offending guild. Habitually breaking this rule will result in a guild disband.
-Create a functioning 'Raiding' forum where all participating guilds are required to list the date/times of their respective kills, as well as the projected date/times of their respawns.

This is the only way I see everyone having a true equal chance. No one has to sacrifice days of their life sitting in front of a tracking mule mashing a button. No one has to wake up at 4AM on a work-day to have a chance at a boss. The guilds will know they targets for the week ahead of time, and their spawn times. The playing field is absolutely level. Everyone gets their piece of the action, with the chance of getting extra.

Now some might point out that without some sort of qualifier there will be 20 guilds on the rotation in no time, and to start out, you are right. But over time, some guilds will realize it is in their best interest to merge with other guilds to have the numbers/whatever to down the more difficult bosses. Over time, the number of guilds on the rotation will mitigate themselves down to a handful and each guild will be getting multiple targets a week. With the release of Velious that number of targets will more than double.

This is nothing that hasn't been suggested and shot down before on the basis of some's personal feelings about 'competition.' That 'some' are a tiny minority of the server, that are available for the better part of every day to log on at the drop of a hat. The minority of players that applies to are being catered to by the variance, while the vast majority of players it does not apply to are left in the cold when it comes to their classic everquest experience. Rotations work. If Rallos Zek( and many others ) can have have a functioning rotation, that finds the majority of raiders on the server happy, than p99 can do the same.

[Sirken]

I've read it. Its anecdotal at best. The variance helps the minority at the expense of the majority. This is coming from a long time p99 raider, with more tracking hours that I'd like to mention. The variance is one option of many. I seem to recall someone saying something about "without change you can never move forward?"

i addressed the variance in great detail in this thread. go back and read my posts.

[Aaryonar]

An equal chance does not necessarily equate to equality

Why does anybody on this server deserve more than a chance?

Equal Chance = Level Playing Field
Equality = A myth, and not classic

[kenzar]

Why does anybody on this server deserve more than a chance?



That is all my suggested methods provide. An equal chance (24hrs) on targets in a rotation. Have you spent weeks of your life mashing track for a chance at a mob? I have, its not fun, its not classic. It burns people out, makes them resent people in their own guild and the game. 0 variance is the only thing that makes sense because it puts everyone on a level playing field from the start, everything past that is what they wish to put into it.

[kenzar]

its called free will

because just like in RL, God has never come down from the heavens to dictate how we as people do things. it directly contradicts free will. Kings govern men, and gods inspire men.

thats the difference


No, the difference is that a god's power is not real. However the power u(and others) hold on this server is very real. It is completely possible for you/staff to intervene and fix this situation. But instead you choose to sit back and watch as if you are impotent to the "free will." bad analogy is bad.


the staff has no plans or desire to dictate the raid scene to the players. it will be what you make it.
You expect way too much from people if you think this is possible. The current raiding scene can't get along in the simplest of matters. What makes you think adding more people will help?

why dont all these smaller guilds just merge to form a competitive guild, as opposed to hoping a mob pops within your guilds peak play time. for example u said 5pm-1am you'd be good to go, but not outside those hours.

so maybe time to think outside the box? if FC, FV, Div, and Taken were to merge, you would easily be able to start competing on just about any mob.

people will argue that they shouldnt have to merge to compete. and i will simply disagree because its not true. every top guild goes through mergers on their way to the top.

doing things the way you want, and doing things the way things need to be done to compete, are not always the same path. and theres a very good chance at some point you have to decide which of those paths you are going to embark on, because most times its not possible to do both.

If this were reality we were talking about, I'd agree with you 100%, you cannot have it both ways. But this is a game, in which reality does not apply. It is completely possible for everyone to have it both ways. All it takes is for the staff to step in and endorse a new rule set. The variance was not imposed on this server since it's inception. The GM's made a precedence and intervened, altered the rule set. Why is it out of the question now? What has changed?

I have read the entire thread now. Now can we converse ? :) I promise I wont bite, just express some ideas I feel would benefit most the people on this server.

[maverixdamighty]

0 variance will just lead to poopsocking again just with more guilds and more gm interventions. only way people are going to be happy is with more content.

[kenzar]

0 variance will just lead to poopsocking again just with more guilds and more gm interventions. only way people are going to be happy is with more content.

If u read the suggestion, its 0 variance with an enforced rotation. No reason to poopsock if killing the target out of turn will just earn u a week in the penalty box/possible disbanding.

[Sirken]

Here is what I don't get, Sirken. I think you are intelligent and sincere. Which is why I really don't understand how you can make the statements you do about variance. It's almost like we play on different servers. You say that variance prevents the top guild from dominating, yet there have been huge blocks of time where a single guild would get borderline clean sweeps (TR for several months after Kunark came out, TMO for ~10 months around last summer) and even when there was 'competition' there were exactly two guilds involved: TR/TMO and now TMO/FE. You say that lack of variance would allow a guild to manipulate the boss mobs to repop at inconvenient times, yet all the raid targets are killed within an hour of spawning, regardless of time. You say that you want competition, yet you have gotten Lord of the Flies. Have you read RnF lately? There is some serious hate there. People are flaming and trolling and spying and trying to dig up other people's RL information so they can harass them there. This is Chest's point: Why can you not see that some of us just don't want to be a part of that, and that it has nothing to do with 'competition' ? And why as staff are you encouraging this kind of environment?
the difference is you are only thinking about guilds like your own. whereas we have to think about guilds like yours, as well as guilds at the top, as well as guilds that have not yet formed, or have not yet found p99.

[kenzar]

the difference is you are only thinking about guilds like your own. whereas we have to think about guilds like yours, as well as guilds at the top, as well as guilds that have not yet formed, or have not yet found p99.

An enforced rotation eliminates any need to consider any guild differently as it treats all guilds equally.

[Sirken]

If u read the suggestion, its 0 variance with an enforced rotation. No reason to poopsock if killing the target out of turn will just earn u a week in the penalty box/possible disbanding.

go read everything i posted in this thread, done repeating myself :)

[Stormhowl]

An enforced rotation eliminates any need to consider any guild differently as it treats all guilds equally.

I think equality is ideal, but the problem is you end up eliminating the competition. Sirken's right to a degree in that regard, and it's bad if you only think of achievements as winning a competition.

But that's just me playing devil's advocate. I disagree with him in that regard; achievement should be looked at in terms of how much effort you put into getting prepared and doing the fight, rather than saying "Well you just waited your turn and got instant loot". :/

[achtung]

An enforced rotation eliminates any need to consider any guild differently as it treats all guilds equally.

But all guilds are not equal :(

[kenzar]

go read everything i posted in this thread, done repeating myself :)

I've read the entire thread. And you have not addressed anything remotely close to my suggestion beyond "lol not competition." Competition is a very subjective idea. I would say that the majority of this server does not view competition the way you do as evidence by the small percentage of people who actually participate in end game raiding. Do you care to respond on an intellectual level or do you wish to defer back to "lol not competition."?

[kenzar]

But all guilds are not equal :(

under the current rule set, yes you are right. But that is not necessarily a universal law. All it takes is the staff to to endorse a new rule set (just as they did early in the server's life) and all that could change.

[Aaryonar]

That is all my suggested methods provide. An equal chance (24hrs) on targets in a rotation. Have you spent weeks of your life mashing track for a chance at a mob? I have, its not fun, its not classic. It burns people out, makes them resent people in their own guild and the game. 0 variance is the only thing that makes sense because it puts everyone on a level playing field from the start, everything past that is what they wish to put into it.

Tracking sucks and I hate it too, but it really doesn't mean anything if you can't mobilize your force to the target in time.

You can't park your raid at every target and you can't convince your guild to track absolutely everything all the time. You simply cannot do that.

Tracking would certainly be a nice luxury, but unless you're tracking 100% of the mobs 100% of the time, you're going to be losing some. ESPECIALLY if you're camping your raid force at one or two in particular.

I don't want to turn this server into Guild A pressing free-loot button then passing to Guild B and everyone playing nice. That's WoW and it's not fun. That's what a rotation would be here since every person knows exactly what's needed to down every mob. You might have the odd wipe 1/50 times, but for the most part whoever is on schedule for that day gets the boss and that isn't competition, it's "Equality" at the cost of uncertainty, and uncertainty is what's fun!

I re-iterate. Everyone deserves an equal chance, but if everyone is "equal" - by your hardline definition of absolute equality in gear and content for every player all the time - then what's the point of playing and getting better at the game?

Right? Right.

Full Variance is the only choice that allows for meaningful competition between players while not necessarily favoring the tactics currently employed by raid guilds on this server to cockblock everyone else.

[kenzar]

Tracking sucks and I hate it too, but it really doesn't mean anything if you can't mobilize your force to the target in time.

You can't park your raid at every target and you can't convince your guild to track absolutely everything all the time. You simply cannot do that.

Tracking would certainly be a nice luxury, but unless you're tracking 100% of the mobs 100% of the time, you're going to be losing some. ESPECIALLY if you're camping your raid force at one or two in particular.

I don't want to turn this server into Guild A pressing free-loot button then passing to Guild B and everyone playing nice. That's WoW and it's not fun. That's what a rotation would be here since every person knows exactly what's needed to down every mob. You might have the odd wipe 1/50 times, but for the most part whoever is on schedule for that day gets the boss and that isn't competition, it's "Equality" at the cost of uncertainty, and uncertainty is what's fun!

I re-iterate. Everyone deserves an equal chance, but if everyone is "equal" - by your hardline definition of absolute equality in gear and content for every player all the time - then what's the point of playing and getting better at the game?

Right? Right.

You dont think certain "lower teir" guilds are gonna wipe to mobs like Gorenaire?Trak? Even IB wiped to those mobs w/o competition rushing an engage. They are a genuine challenge for guilds that havent farmed VP for the last few months.

Whats the point of getting better at the game? watching your guild who had trouble on certain bosses progress, get geared, and in time overcome those fights.

What you define as fun is not what everyone would define as fun. Again I will cite the relatively low numbers of 60's that participate in current raiding compared to the # of available lvl 60's. The majority of people do not find the current end game rule set fun. I would argue that your idea of what is fun, is the minority, and I'm sorry but my suggestion would not cater to you...the minority.

[Stormhowl]

I re-iterate. Everyone deserves an equal chance, but if everyone is "equal" - by your hardline definition of absolute equality in gear and content for every player all the time - then what's the point of playing and getting better at the game?

Right? Right.

Not everyone's goal is to get shinies. Every player should be treated equally; but not every player will have the same goals.

Simply put, every player should have the opportunity at the same things, but only if they actually want them and are willing to work towards it. And the drama involved with going after bosses is not a test of skill or effort; it's a test in coping with bull excrement.

[slappytwotoes]

absolutely not! i think simulated patch days (full repops) are a truly great idea that will benefit a very high majority of players. im pretty certain Nilbog and Rogean feel the same way based off last weeks staff meeting. but there are still some details we would like to iron out internally before we make any final decisions on it.

and you'd be surprised what the "peasants" are ready for, everybody has a breaking point, even the "peasants"

Brace yourselves > Simulated patch days are coming!

[kenzar]

Not everyone's goal is to get shinies. Every player should be treated equally; but not every player will have the same goals.

Simply put, every player should have the opportunity at the same things, but only if they actually want them and are willing to work towards it. And the drama involved with going after bosses is not a test of skill or effort; it's a test in coping with bull excrement.

Well put.

[OMGWTF420]

raid drama = website traffic = more people clicking on google adds

[maverixdamighty]

If u read the suggestion, its 0 variance with an enforced rotation. No reason to poopsock if killing the target out of turn will just earn u a week in the penalty box/possible disbanding.

no one is going to agree to enforced rotations. gm's are not going to enforce rotations either.

[kenzar]

raid drama = higher turn over rate = unsustainable population.

I can think of 2 large guilds worth of players that would still be playing on this server if it weren't for raid drama being what it is. Burst website traffic is nice, but a lower more constant traffic is better.

[kenzar]

no one is going to agree to enforced rotations. gm's are not going to enforce rotations either.

GM's enforced a variance. The precedence for a rule set revamp is there.

What information are u basing this projected 'no one' off of, I know a few guilds who would love to participate in end game but refuse to participate in the mud slinging required to 'compete' as it is now.

[maverixdamighty]

GM's enforced a variance. The precedence for a rule set revamp is there.

gm's don't enforce a variance they coded it. it requires no additional work for them. enforcing a rotation is additional work they have to do. an enforced rotation will not happen.

[Stormhowl]

gm's don't enforce a variance they coded it. it requires no additional work for them. enforcing a rotation is additional work they have to do. an enforced rotation will not happen.

The same can be said about many things in real life.

Why is it so hard to believe that some people would police it themselves without GM involvement, especially if its a rival guild, providing them with a chance to "stick it to them"? There are always ways for the playerbase to met out justice without Mommy and Daddy stepping in to take everyone's toys away.

[kenzar]

gm's don't enforce a variance they coded it. it requires no additional work for them. enforcing a rotation is additional work they have to do. an enforced rotation will not happen.

You must be kidding. Yes the variance is a function that operates on its own. But think of the work the variance has generated through fte disputes/train accusations/DT cycle accusations/accusations of cheating/exploiting. Making a calendar with a list of possible raid targets -> applying a list of guilds willing to participate and moving them around seems like very little work compared to the current rule set. (and guess what? any kid with a minor knowledge of c++ could do it.) The rotation would enforce itself after a point, any guilds breaking the rotation would be reported by other guilds. The enforced rotation would generate no more work than the current rule set, in fact the amount of work required by staff would go down.

[maverixdamighty]

You must be kidding. Yes the variance is a function that operates on its own. But think of the work the variance has generated through fte disputes/train accusations/DT cycle accusations/accusations of cheating/exploiting. Making a calendar with a list of possible raid targets -> applying a list of guilds willing to participate and moving them around seems like very little work compared to the current rule set. The rotation would enforce itself after a point, any guilds breaking the rotation would be reported by other guilds. The enforced rotation would generate no more work than the current rule set, in fact the amount of work required by staff would go down.

there isn't going to be an enforced rotation on this server it's that simple. it's not classic and while I don't speak for FE by any means i'm 100% against this. I have no issue whatsoever not going after every mob every spawn to give others a chance to get raid targets, but expecting an enforced rotation is taking it too far.

[kenzar]

there isn't going to be an enforced rotation on this server it's that simple. it's not classic and while I don't speak for FE by any means i'm 100% against this. I have no issue whatsoever not going after every mob every spawn to give others a chance to get raid targets, but expecting an enforced rotation is taking it too far.

Maybe you weren't around before the variance, but the same was said then when the suggestion for a variance came up. "There isnt going to be a variance on this server, its that simple. its not classic." Guess what? We are working with a variance now. That's called a precedence.

You're talking with someone who raided with IB for years, 0 variance w/o a rotation didn't work, the variance w/o rotation isnt working, the next logical permutation would a 0 variance with a rotation.

[Stormhowl]

there isn't going to be an enforced rotation on this server it's that simple. it's not classic.

Judging by responses in this thread, it's clear that this statement is false.

[maverixdamighty]

Judging by responses in this thread, it's clear that this statement is false.

some servers implemented their own rotations it was not a standardized feature amongst the majority of the server. you can take any of the responses you want in this thread and twist them to your purpose, but on all servers I ever played there were no "enforced rotations" and the notion was generally laughed at.

[Ravager]

"Well you just waited your turn and got instant loot". :/

This is essentially what happens when you join a zerg guild. You show up, get your DKP and stand in line for loot. How is this any different from a rotation, other than you all share the same guild chat? FE is competing with TMO now, but one or the other will fold, and when that happens one of them will be picking up the pieces of the other guild and keep the machine going for another 10 months of uncontested mobs.

[maverixdamighty]

Maybe you weren't around before the variance, but the same was said then when the suggestion for a variance came up. "There isnt going to be a variance on this server, its that simple. its not classic." Guess what? We are working with a variance now. That's called a precedence.

You're talking with someone who raided with IB for years, 0 variance w/o a rotation didn't work, the variance w/o rotation isnt working, the next logical permutation would a 0 variance with a rotation.

ya and guess what variance isn't controlled by the players. rotations are. sirken is the lead gm and he already said they aren't going to enforce rotations did he not? can stop beating a dead horse now and think of some other ideas.

[kenzar]

ya and guess what variance isn't controlled by the players. rotations are. sirken is the lead gm and he already said they aren't going to enforce rotations did he not? can stop beating a dead horse now and think of some other ideas.

He also said the decision is not up to just him but the server staff. Which means his statement is his opinion, his opinion holds weight, but not all of it.

[Aaryonar]

Some servers had 0 enforcement of most play nice policy conduct. On Cazic it was pretty much get XP get loot in my experience, and trains were commonplace. How do we accomodate players that are looking to emulate that play experience here?

I feel that my suggestion is simply the path of least resistance, not the most ideal.

[Stormhowl]

ya and guess what variance isn't controlled by the players. rotations are. sirken is the lead gm and he already said they aren't going to enforce rotations did he not? can stop beating a dead horse now and think of some other ideas.

*coughcough*

now all that being said, i'm simply the CSR GM and these are simply my thoughts/opinions. i do not dictate policy, or anything else, and i especially do not dictate things to Rogean or Nilbog. this is not my server, i do not make the rules. i do however enforce the rules that are put forth, and i also will try to explain the staff's position or reasoning on certain subjects. sometimes i offer my advice or thoughts on a subject in a thread, but thats all they are.

It doesn't qualify as a beaten horse until someone who runs the server explicitly states it's a done issue and cannot be spoken about.

[maverixdamighty]

He also said the decision is not up to just him but the server staff. Which means his statement is his opinion, his opinion holds weight, but not all of it.

thought this thread was about ways to work this out between the guilds on the server not how to have GMs control who gets what mobs? Started off with people talking about a potential list of mobs that could be left up every time period to allow some guilds that currently aren't going after raid targets to experience some end game content again, but now we are discussing a full out "enforced rotation." Why not just give people gm abilities and you can summon whatever gear you want?

[kenzar]

Some servers had 0 enforcement of most play nice policy conduct. On Cazic it was pretty much get XP get loot in my experience, and trains were commonplace. How do we accomodate players that are looking to emulate that play experience here?

I feel that my suggestion is simply the path of least resistance, not the most ideal.

It caters to the majority, just like any successful govt.

[kenzar]

thought this thread was about ways to work this out between the guilds on the server not how to have GMs control who gets what mobs? Started off with people talking about a potential list of mobs that could be left up every time period to allow some guilds that currently aren't going after raid targets to experience some end game content again, but now we are discussing a full out "enforced rotation." Why not just give people gm abilities and you can summon whatever gear you want?

Straw man->slippery slope

An enforced rotation is not even close to giving people gm scope.

[Stormhowl]

thought this thread was about ways to work this out between the guilds on the server not how to have GMs control who gets what mobs? Started off with people talking about a potential list of mobs that could be left up every time period to allow some guilds that currently aren't going after raid targets to experience some end game content again, but now we are discussing a full out "enforced rotation." Why not just give people gm abilities and you can summon whatever gear you want?

So we're back-peddling and changing the subject? This post of yours doesn't even respond to the fact that Sirken doesn't have the authority to decide the rules. Your original position was utterly refuted and now you're changing the subject/deflecting?

Just... wow.

[maverixdamighty]

gluck with your gm enforced rotation. nice to see this thread go off topic asking for gm intervention instead of players working together.

[maverixdamighty]

So we're back-peddling and changing the subject? This post of yours doesn't even respond to the fact that Sirken doesn't have the authority to decide the rules. Your original position was utterly refuted and now you're changing the subject/deflecting?

Just... wow.

i'm not deflecting an enforced rotation won't happen here. can add it to your signature or whatever you want to do. keep wasting your breath talking about it.

[kenzar]

gluck with your gm enforced rotation. nice to see this thread go off topic asking for gm intervention instead of players working together.

Again, you dont have the scope I and others do of the servers end game rule set evolution. Players working together has not worked from 2009-2013. What exactly makes you think it ever will?

[kenzar]

i'm not deflecting an enforced rotation won't happen here. can add it to your signature or whatever you want to do. keep wasting your breath talking about it.

Well, you've laid several valid counterpoints out here, and so far when faced with the rebuttal you've changed your argument, eventually leading to you just flat out denying it. I dont mean to insult you, but thats the same method used by young earth creationists.

[maverixdamighty]

Again, you dont have the scope I and others do of the servers end game rule set evolution. Players working together has not worked from 2009-2013. What exactly makes you think it ever will?

I don't know that it ever will, but enforced rotations aren't happening and if they do this server will be the biggest carebear POS around. Congratulations on being in end game raiding longer than me on this emulated server. So you were in IB where was your "enforced rotations" threads when you guys were the top guild on the server? Please provide those links...

[maverixdamighty]

Well, you've laid several valid counterpoints out here, and so far when faced with the rebuttal you've changed your argument, eventually leading to you just flat out denying it. I dont mean to insult you, but thats the same method used by young earth creationists.

Sirken holds more weight than any of commenting on this thread, period. He isn't for "enforced rotations" and while he is only part of the staff if you don't think they will take his opinion highly then there is no point in talking with you. Keep talking about these fairy tales and have a great night!

[kenzar]

I don't know that it ever will, but enforced rotations aren't happening and if they do this server will be the biggest carebear POS around. Congratulations on being in end game raiding longer than me on this emulated server. So you were in IB where was your "enforced rotations" threads when you guys were the top guild on the server? Please provide those links...

I've always been adamant about a rotation. Even more so after joining IB and putting weeks of my life towards tracking mobs. Just because I worked within the system does not equate to me endorsing it.

Again you aren't attacking my argument. Your objection has been noted in the annals of time. Do you have any counterpoints to my argument?

[kenzar]

Sirken holds more weight than any of commenting on this thread, period. He isn't for "enforced rotations" and while he is only part of the staff if you don't think they will take his opinion highly then there is no point in talking with you. Keep talking about these fairy tales and have a great night!

You've already used this one, and it was refuted, and then u changed your argument. Are we coming full circle already? Just form an coherent argument as to why an enforced rotation will not work and we can go from there. Until then, a flat out denial just speaks towards your bias towards a broken system.

[Stormhowl]

i'm not deflecting an enforced rotation won't happen here. can add it to your signature or whatever you want to do. keep wasting your breath talking about it.

Okay. So what are you doing about it other than not arguing the point being discussed? You can't accuse other people of "derailing" when you yourself engage in the same behaviour. It's hypocritical and it detracts from getting to the meat of the issue. There's a word for people who's calling cards are deflections and hypocrisy.

Are you planning to discuss the point at hand or continue to dance around circuitously like an AoE kiting bard on speed?

[Aaryonar]

Wait wait wait.

What about a rotation with bi-weekly repops that are fully open?

Does that solve both of our problems?

That's something I could get into, but still seriously unlikely that you'll get the playerbase behind it without someone pushing the envelope...

Again, in a perfect world, maybe. But just not realistic I guess.

[kenzar]

Wait wait wait.

What about a rotation with bi-weekly repops that are fully open?

Does that solve both of our problems?

That's something I could get into, but still seriously unlikely that you'll get the playerbase behind it without someone pushing the envelope...

Again, in a perfect world, maybe. But just not realistic I guess.

I endorse this idea. It would still generate drama, but at a much lower rate, which is better than that current status. Anything is really better than the current status.

[Ravager]

An idea that's been brought up before, that would level the playing field a little more and involves no rotations and no "free handouts" is limits to guild rosters. Smaller rosters means more guilds, means more options for raiding, means more competition if that's your thing.

[Woahnelly]

what would stop TMO from turning into 3 guilds that share the same dkp system?

[Splorf22]

If you want competition, why would you possibly like variance, where players 'compete' to see who can leave their character at the login screen while they watch TV?

1) Enable PVP for raid encounters - there is some competition for you
2) Simultaneous repops, no variance, and antipoopsocking code - that is real racing
3) Forming the smallest guilds that can still handle a spot in the rotation, thus maximizing your pixels

I think you are a reasonable guy Mav, don't you think you can find better ways to compete in EQ if that is your thing?

[kenzar]

It's also open to a lot of rule lawyering.

[Ravager]

what would stop TMO from turning into 3 guilds that share the same dkp system?

TMO is the size it is just to pad numbers. They have a core of raiders and then they have a bunch of people who show up for loot. Split them up and things will get cliquey in a hurry and the core who would inevitibly be in the same guild doing all the heavy lifting won't be so keen on DKP spread out over 3 guilds.

[Woahnelly]

Certainly a neat idea. What about alts though? Since they can't be boxed would they be allowed to be in the same guild and not count towards x guild total?

[Kagatob]

FTE isn't classic yo, sorry to burst your bubbles.

All of you saying otherwise? You're part of the reason this debacle keeps going.

[AenarieFenninRo]

I have tried to be very civil throughout this thread, and said many times that I would like to see some system worked out... but i'm now moving away from this because its broken down once again into enforced rotation talks for pages on end.


It seems in its way, that even when I was a kid, we had to do something instead of just requesting that no other team was on the field so they could kick the ball toward the goal in the hopes of it going in.

I am all for everyone having fun, and everyone getting a chance to do something they might not normally get the chance to do, but the proposals I have seen thus far are simply asking the other teams to step off the field of play so that someone else can have a go at it.


I said it before, and i'm re-quoting it now... all this talk of "rotations" equates to my statements above. Now people are talking about "they have X time to engage or it goes FTE". "make the GMs enforce it"

So to continue the analogy, you make everyone get off the field for 20 mins / 4 hours / 24 hours / whatever... and all stand on the sidelines and watch you, and when you miss the goal they all bum rush the mob.

You're also requiring the GMs to stand and watch as referees to determine who's turn it is to be the lone player on the field, and make sure nobody interferes with you, and then blow the whistle for the free for all wtf800 people on the mob.

So why wait the 20 mins / 4 hours / 24 hours when the free for all is already the situation when a mob spawns?

Nobody is stopping smaller guilds from running 3 people in for an FTE snipe. Nobody is saying that the smaller guilds cant have a go at targets. You're putting these restrictions on yourselves because you "dont want to deal with the R&F / Fallout / etc"... I see it as you wanting someone else to do the work for you with tracking and just let you know when its your turn.

Grow a pair, and let them hang low.

Alarti came in here yesterday at 11am saying:
I would like to offer divnity an opportunity here to show up at the next trakanon and compete. BDA, Taken, etc are invited also.

Trakanon spawned 3 hours later... it was again, TMO and FE. Where were ya'll? But somehow this is probably our fault right? I mean, we're the big bad wolf here... so saying why not come down for Trak and none of you showing is our fault?

Even given a straight up invite to come down to the mob, you dont show up... maybe we should have petitioned "Trakanon is up, please alert the small guilds so we can watch them engage it and hope they fail for our turn" because someone else "deserves" a go at it right? All our tracking of the target was pointless because we've killed him too many times yah?

To quote "A Knight's Tale"
You have been weighed, you have been measured, and you have been found wanting.

[Woahnelly]

That trak raid would have been really fun, with the alleged FTE snipe, ensuing petition, and 60 page rnf thread. You don't need to make rotations out to be a complicated thing, as the really are not. They require little to no GM involvement so long as people abide by the rotation. Any any hypothetical rotation could still have FFA targets. There are currently enough raid targets where other guilds wouldn't be waiting on the sidelines, they could worry about their own targets.

[finalgrunt]

Gaaah too much posting during night! Need to catch up :rolleyes:

Alright here we go. Zeelot answered me, but his first answer was negative. I asked him to reconsider, because his fears were that it would require lots of organization around this "rotation". This made me believe there is a misunderstanding, because I would be willing to keep track of the said week and remind all parties before it starts, and when it ends. Also this is not really a rotation, all other guilds would deal with the said window.
That was for the news part.

Now let's answer some of the stuff which was said since yesterday. First I would like to see full rotations discussions avoided in this thread. It won't happen, it's not the scope, and it easily derails the topic.

Then, I'll answer to Sirken since he's part of the "vision" of this server:

we had batphones in kunark and velious. it equated to some awesome races for Lodzial (Lozdial?) the giant IC turtle. maybe some servers didn't require them.. we'll say for various reasons.

one thing ive noticed (and im not taking a shot at anyone here) from talking with players is that a decent amount of the players on the server were born after 84-85. and i know what your thinking, "But sirken, so the fawk what?" my point is that if you were 14 or younger, you probably didnt have your own phone, and you probably werent allowed to get phone calls from strangers on that "elf game". my point is, batphoning always existed.

as far as the variance, let me try to explain this for the 1000th time (btw, i think i know who the 1000th commander of the nights watch will be.. wait nm wrong thread). the staff and the players have extremely different priorities. for the staff, the variance exists so that no one guild can lock down content. so that they can not manipulate the repop times until ALL the bosses are in the the off peak hours (12am-7am), and then essentially unless you see the mob die, you will not know the repop time. furthermore, no variance guarantees that the top guild stays on top because no other guild will ever kill trakanon or get vp teeth. FURTHERMORE it turns every other guild into a stepping stone for the top guild. Now, SOME of you might say "Sirken, STFU! Some mobs are better than no mobs! wtf is wrong with you stupid GM, what cant you see this?!? you must be teh stupidz!!!1!!!11!!". and to that id say,we dont give a shit about any one particular guild, our interest is whats best for the server, and more over, planning for the future of the server, and taking into consideration guilds or players that may still yet join Project 1999. That being said, taking away the variance makes it impossible for the top guild to be dethroned (without pvp or /guildwar). So im terribly sorry, but we are not willing to just hand over the server to the top guild permanently, so that the smaller guilds can drop inny and maestro twice a month. Now the players dont see it that way, and to be fair, nobody expects them to think that way. Players simply do not think that way, they think about themselves and their guild, possibly some allies, and thats it.

First, I would like to state that I'm not a new player. Being in Divinity doesn't mean I'm not in touch with the current raid scene.

If the goal of p99 is to recreate Eq classic experience, it's obvious some things can't be left as they were on live. That's why we can't have all classic mechanisms. The most obvious tweaks are items recharging prices, lifetap hoops forbidden on bosses. The reason behind all this is to stay as close to the classic experience as possible. And I totally agree with this!

Now, if the server is about keeping the philosophy of Everquest, then there is a first issue here. You keep repeating that EQ was cuthroat competition on your servers. Ok we got it, but that did not happen on every server (and please, even more when it comes to classic era! competition really started on most servers with Luclin / PoP). Problem is, the rules applied on this server only catter to this overcompetitive vision. I've come to accept it (no choice), and in no way my proposition would change it. If I wanted a carebear solution, it would be a half/half split between the two visions. No, what I am proposing is a 1/10 vs 9/10 split for non priority targets. Still appears to be too much for some people, like you Sirken.

Anyway, let's dig into your reasoning behing the rules which forge the current raid scene. You tell us that without variance, the top guild couldn't be dethroned right?
Without variance, we fall back to pretty much poop sock and FTE, am I right? Everybody can do this, even a small guild. A top guild WOULD get dethroned quite fast, because it would pretty much become (simplified on purpose) a /rand N, where N is the number of parties involved with fast auto key hit means. That would still give future players a shot at dragons, and you can keep "not giving a shit" about any particular guild (no offense ^^, just thought this part funny coming from a GM hehe, we're not used to that).

If variance was the solution to this, then we wouldn't have such an extreme domination from top guilds. That's why I believe you got it wrong. Variance, like other raid scene rules (15 men rules, FTE, etc.) were created because the staff thought it would deter players from monopolizing content. And they did seem like possible good ideas when they were introduced. Everybody on this server has been welcoming new rules in hope it would change the current scene.
Time has proven the staff wrong on this: if anything it didn't deter top guilds to get more and more involved to adapt to these new rules, and worse even use/bend them to deny access to content to other guilds. All it did was to create an even greater gap between the top guild(s) and others. That's why the only way left to compete at the moment, is to form a guild with a huge roster, with enough people who can play around the clock to track and engage at any moment. Also requires people ready to know all the rules and how they can be bent, and going as far as GM corruption. That is NOT Everquest philosophy.
Instead of admitting your wrong doings, you keep making the raid scene catter to only one kind of players: those who are willing to do whatever it takes to get a kill.

People thought Kunark would solve the domination issues (will require more tracking, more opportunities for other guilds to compete). Turned out to be wrong again. And with Velious, the solution will be to have one monster guild to keep content locked down. So unless you want to turn blue into what is red (a one server guild thing), maybe it's time to listen to what others have to say.

And the worst of all here, is that by giving away non priority targets for 1 week every X, it would not address all the issues I stated. Because that's not my point. I'm just asking -for the 1000th time- for a small window opened for people who had a different experience when they played EQ, while leaving an overwhelming amount of time for your other kind (this way, we're not touching the server the way it's meant to be according to the staff, and if you were to be right on this, then I fail to see how this proposition would come in your way). Why can't you agree with this, if you say you really care about what is best for the server, is puzzling me to say the least, since it wouldn't needed GM intervention. You've always said solutions should come from players, and here we are. Why can't we give this a try for 1 or 2 times, and see how it goes? I don't see how it could be a bad thing, really.

[maverixdamighty]

Okay. So what are you doing about it other than not arguing the point being discussed? You can't accuse other people of "derailing" when you yourself engage in the same behaviour. It's hypocritical and it detracts from getting to the meat of the issue. There's a word for people who's calling cards are deflections and hypocrisy.

Are you planning to discuss the point at hand or continue to dance around circuitously like an AoE kiting bard on speed?

i already posted my suggestion which is realistic unlike this "enforced rotation" pipedream.

[maverixdamighty]

If variance was the solution to this, then we wouldn't have such an extreme domination from top guilds. That's why I believe you got it wrong. Variance, like other raid scene rules (15 men rules, FTE, etc.) were created because the staff thought it would deter players from monopolizing content. And they did seem like possible good ideas when they were introduced. Everybody on this server has been welcoming new rules in hope it would change the current scene.


this is not true IMO. even without variance fe/tmo is going to get the vast majority of the mobs as other guilds wouldn't have timers and don't want to get involved in the "poop socking" etc. The only way you will keep guilds from monopolizing content is if other guilds rise up willing to put in the same time commitments...

[kotton05]

if you want to SEE what a non varianced mob looks like, go to sky around 11/12 in the morn on sunday, wait for dojo to spawn.

FTE/Variance is a great solution. Rotated mobs, maybe if another guild is out there doing what it takes, never know what may happen.

[Kagatob]

if you want to SEE what a non varianced mob looks like, go to sky around 11/12 in the morn on sunday, wait for dojo to spawn.

FTE/Variance is a great solution. Rotated mobs, maybe if another guild is out there doing what it takes, never know what may happen.

Simultaneous repops would be better. If for example at 12pm noon every Sunday Dojo as well as 4 other low/mid tier mobs spawned at the same time it would force communication between guilds. If both top guilds want the same mob that means they can enjoy their shitty FTE fest while the remaining guilds get a chance at the other mobs on that timetable.

[maverixdamighty]

Simultaneous repops would be better. If for example at 12pm noon every Sunday Dojo as well as 4 other low/mid tier mobs spawned at the same time it would force communication between guilds. If both top guilds want the same mob that means they can enjoy their shitty FTE fest while the remaining guilds get a chance at the other mobs on that timetable.

this is basically server repops which has been requested for some time. when those happens guilds have to prioritize which targets they go after first and risk losing out on the others. I don't think it would require too much effort for this to happen and depending on the time of day it happens would give quite a few guilds a great chance at getting mobs they are not seeing now.

[kotton05]

Simultaneous repops would be better. If for example at 12pm noon every Sunday Dojo as well as 4 other low/mid tier mobs spawned at the same time it would force communication between guilds. If both top guilds want the same mob that means they can enjoy their shitty FTE fest while the remaining guilds get a chance at the other mobs on that timetable.

this could be really cool, I agree. just so few and far between to really know how this more often would turn out. also when mobs outta window it feels really weird, but this once a month or something would be something to look forward to, assuming its random.

[Kagatob]

this could be really cool, I agree. just so few and far between to really know how this more often would turn out. also when mobs outta window it feels really weird, but this once a month or something would be something to look forward to, assuming its random.

I used the time as an example. You could make several different sets of mobs on different spawn cycles. 3, 3.5, 4, 4.25 etc. day spawns, always at 6am, noon, 6pm or midnight EST, but set like clockwork and having nothing to do with when the mob died.

I don't have the spawntimes of mobs memorized but I'm pretty sure that even in classic there were many mobs that had the same repop time, the only "non-classic" aspect of it would be fixing the respawn timer to be set on spawn and not kill which is still much closer to classic than the current variance system is and also serves to in many situations nullify the need for the FTE system.

[Ravager]

this is not true IMO. even without variance fe/tmo is going to get the vast majority of the mobs as other guilds wouldn't have timers and don't want to get involved in the "poop socking" etc. The only way you will keep guilds from monopolizing content is if other guilds rise up willing to put in the same time commitments...

It's not that hard to get a timer. Especially if you're exping in Seb and 100-200 people enter the zone. With FTE, what's the point of poop-socking with no variance?

[maverixdamighty]

It's not that hard to get a timer. Especially if you're exping in Seb and 100-200 people enter the zone. With FTE, what's the point of poop-socking with no variance?

it's not going to be 4-5 hour poopsocks but people will be there early buffed sitting on the spawn spamming f8 for fte. like merkk said come up to sky on sundays around noon and see for yourself.

[Ravager]

That's a very reasonable time.

[arsenalpow]

Prime example of why this shit is fundamentally broken.

Maestro is in window, Lacie is the only person in Hate tracking it. Sweet! BDA batphone goes out. FE IMMEDIATELY starts mobilizing. Oops, looks like the BDA batphone has a leak for the umpteenth time. Even when the small guild puts in the effort at 7 in the fucking morning we still have to worry about subversion from the bigger fish. Where do you draw the line??

[quido]

Maybe your members are double agents.

[arsenalpow]

Maybe your members are double agents.

If I had an extra inch for every time TMO mobilized off one of our batphones I'd be hung like Jeremy fucking Irons.

[quido]

uhhh lol not sure where you're getting that from, but I don't think we've ever mobilized from your batphone

in game response probably

[kenzar]

this is not true IMO.

Truth has nothing to do with your opinion. We are looking for constructive criticism in this thread. Stop telling us that things won't work and offer explanations and alternatives please.

[maverixdamighty]

Truth has nothing to do with your opinion. We are looking for constructive criticism in this thread. Stop telling us that things won't work and offer explanations and alternatives please.

why don't you start your own thread where you can nazi what opinions people can post. keep championing your "enforced rotation" in that thread.

[falkun]

why don't you start your own thread where you can nazi what opinions people can post. keep championing your "enforced rotation" in that thread.

Mav, you and I are usually on the same side, but here we have to disagree. Not that "enforced rotations" are the answer, but flatly stating "we did it this way, everyone else should too" instead of working towards compromising is not the path forward. There is another guild that says, "our way or the highway," I'm sure you've heard of them. If you don't like the topic of this thread, you've said your piece and the thread acknowledges your point of view. I've got nothing to add to the thread, I'm tired of having this same argument again and again and knowing its going nowhere.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kFnFr-DOPf8

[kenzar]

why don't you start your own thread where you can nazi what opinions people can post. keep championing your "enforced rotation" in that thread.

We are looking for constructive criticism in this thread. Stop telling us that things won't work and offer explanations and alternatives please.

If u have nothing constructive to post, why post at all? Ive been nothing but civil and u come in a nd post big insults like 'nazi' lol. Why u try so hard?

[maverixdamighty]

Mav, you and I are usually on the same side, but here we have to disagree. Not that "enforced rotations" are the answer, but flatly stating "we did it this way, everyone else should too" instead of working towards compromising is not the path forward. There is another guild that says, "our way or the highway," I'm sure you've heard of them. If you don't like the topic of this thread, you've said your piece and the thread acknowledges your point of view. I've got nothing to add to the thread, I'm tired of having this same argument again and again and knowing its going nowhere.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kFnFr-DOPf8

i'm not stating that falkun. People are saying this happened this way on live and i'm merely stating it may have happened that way on some servers but it sure as heck did not on my server and i'm sure many others. I've already agreed something like daimadoshi's initial request was something I think would work where certain mobs are left up every "x" time period and the guilds that aren't getting the mobs currently can work out their own arrangements on how to address those or go FFA on them etc. I'm not dictating anything and already said i don't have any say in FE's decision I am just adamantly against "enforced rotations" and think it is a carebear attitude. I think people expecting to just be given priority mob spawns are being naive for those top tier mobs you either earn them or you don't.

[maverixdamighty]

If u have nothing constructive to post, why post at all? Ive been nothing but civil and u come in a nd post big insults like 'nazi' lol. Why u try so hard?

you have three options: become a moderator, use the ignore function, or deal with it.

I've already offered a feasible solution that would do what the OP was trying to have implemented, but people like you have come along requesting outlandish requests, which if they haven't already will kill a thread like this. You don't come to the table asking for some mobs then transition it into all mobs or a full "enforced rotation." Get real.