Asking a favor from the two top guilds on the server

[kenzar]

i'm not stating that falkun. People are saying this happened this way on live and i'm merely stating it may have happened that way on some servers but it sure as heck did not on my server and i'm sure many others. I've already agreed something like daimadoshi's initial request was something I think would work where certain mobs are left up every "x" time period and the guilds that aren't getting the mobs currently can work out their own arrangements on how to address those or go FFA on them etc. I'm not dictating anything and already said i don't have any say in FE's decision I am just adamantly against "enforced rotations" and think it is a carebear attitude. I think people expecting to just be given priority mob spawns are being naive for those top tier mobs you either earn them or you don't.

No one said that is the way it happened on all live servers. Stop straw manning for your own benefit.

[kenzar]

you have three options: become a moderator, use the ignore function, or deal with it.

I've already offered a feasible solution that would do what the OP was trying to have implemented, but people like you have come along requesting outlandish requests, which if they haven't already will kill a thread like this. You don't come to the table asking for some mobs then transition it into all mobs or a full "enforced rotation." Get real.

Opinion noted. Anything constructive to add? Also lol at your false dichotmy, u are on a roll with the fallacies.

[Ravager]

It's a free server on a video game you probably torrented. You're not 'earning' anything. You mass recruit and zerg mobs down. I've had plenty of opportunity to join TMO when they were on the gravy train to get my free pixels, but I didn't, because I think it's a stupid and unrewarding way to play the game and I don't like to shit on other people to get something I want. Call me a carebear.

[Thulack]

Mav, you and I are usually on the same side, but here we have to disagree. Not that "enforced rotations" are the answer, but flatly stating "we did it this way, everyone else should too" instead of working towards compromising is not the path forward. There is another guild that says, "our way or the highway," I'm sure you've heard of them. If you don't like the topic of this thread, you've said your piece and the thread acknowledges your point of view. I've got nothing to add to the thread, I'm tired of having this same argument again and again and knowing its going nowhere.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kFnFr-DOPf8

It's not just the guild but the people who run the server too that say this.

[maverixdamighty]

Opinion noted. Anything constructive to add? Also lol at your false dichotmy, u are on a roll with the fallacies.

anything realistic to add? haven't seen anything from you yet.

[radditsu]

Gm enforced rotations are not going to happen. Big dog Sirken shouldn't have to continually say so. Rogean shouldn't continually have to say so. I personally like rotations. I grew up on a big rotation server. But the reality is that the developers and people in charge will not do so, it would take resources that these people just do not have. They aren't being paid 10 bucks an hour to log in a computer at a warehouse somewhere to do this. They are not independently wealthy. They most likely have a 9 to 5 like the rest of us.

Most, if not all programming changes (simulated patch days, fte shout) MAY happen, but you should not count on it, the limited time and effort the developers have, is most likely going to Velious. You are not going to demand, and receive, anything from them. 2 Week simulated repops , a shortened variance window, and keep the randomly extended spawn at the end of windows would be a fantastic way to distribute mobs, and promote competition, and cut down on the spawn camping. I think the random extension is a stroke of genius. However i think that random spawn timers on...say NTOV will be a disaster. Who want's to go up there everyday for one dragon if it pops?

However, all of these are programming changes, and difficult to just "make happen". They have tested some parts of these changes to some mixed results. There are like 3 guys, who in their free time, recreate an entire world of shit for you to do. I've looked at PEQ code and other stuff recently and its....immense. It's frankly amazing. Ok so developer wank over...

So what can you do? Work with people. EQ mac has that shit right(sorry Lron). They will work with each other to carve cancers out. That does not mean that everybody needs to be sunshine and lollipops. I was/is/am ground floor FE, I joined them because, i saw a need for the offensive. I absolutely loved being in BDA, most of the people were amazing. Never saw any problems from any other guild.

I see a bunch of people frothing at the mouth to work together. I couldn't see that potential go to waste. I had to at least try break a strangle hold on the top.

A great deal of the ground level members of FE were willing to do what it takes to at least attempt to change a culture.

Do you think most of them care about Maestro, or an Inny? Or losing a Kunark dragon?
Most of us had a boot on our neck for months to YEARS before.

For the TLDR crowd: Work with each other to change the culture, don't expect the EQ gods to hear your pleas.

[Llodd]

ah well, you're wrong. we arent gods. i never meant to imply that we were the gods. we are watchers that try to keep order amongst the chaos. personally i think the raid scene will still get worse before it gets better. if i was any guild besides TMO/FE, i have a pretty solid way to take their mobs, not all of them, not even close. but snatch a few traks and see what happens. and before any QQs about how impossible it is to steal trak, take a moment to stfu and think out side the box for a few minutes. its much much easier than most of you realize.

and my personal opinion on rotations has no bearing on the situation. personally i think they are retarded, unrewarding, and essentially free handouts, but its also not up to me to decide. everybody enjoys different things. you might really enjoy something i think to be dumb, and vice versa. neither of us is right or wrong for our thinking, we do what makes us happy.

but as it stands right now, the staff will absolutely not dictate to the players how the raid scene will work between guilds, and that includes forcing a rotation.

that being said, just as we wont force a rotation on the guilds, if the guilds did work out a rotation, the staff would not get in the way.

I realise you don't like the implication that you are gods, but that is what you are or rather their disciples that enforce gods (rog/nil's server) rules. After all who else with the flip of a switch can destroy it's very existence.

I think you also misunderstand what I and some others are saying here. Personally i completely agree that any rotation has to be unilaterally agreed amongst the players, but what we are suggesting is that the peasants get that chance every month, 2 months, 3 months or whatever is most reasonable to the top guilds to take on some of the raid targets that they would otherwise not be able to see without joining a massive guild that requires batphone/efficient mobilisation.

Top guilds still maintain their virtual monopoly/competition which unfortunately seems to be what they want.

How is this idea not something the server staff can see as anything but a positive one?

[falkun]

For the TLDR crowd: Work with each other to change the culture, don't expect the EQ gods to hear your pleas.

This. It doesn't matter how much content there is, the culture is what brings us back to classic Everquest.

[kotton05]

This. It doesn't matter how much content there is, the culture is what brings us back to classic Everquest.

Very true, I also think if a guild focus' on fay/tal/sev good chance you can get with the current vp war/trak at FE's main target, the other dragons may get slept on for one reason or another. Sirken said he knows a way to sneak kills in. So there must be a way, prolly doesnt come with some sleepless hours but i have seen BDA/DIV both out there for sev, which is more than most guilds and the more you try the higher chances youll get the kill.

[Hailto]

I came to this server because it was advertised as a classic server. I started a cleric because it is what I first played on live. All the way through as I was leveling in gfay, crushbone,unrest,and mistmoore the game was a pretty good representation of what I remembered and it was fun to play just like I remembered. I worked hard with several close guildies to grow Full Circle so we could simply get into planes and start getting people geared.... A lot of non-selfish people worked their tails off to get us there too. Still I was having the time of my life playing the game again I enjoyed .. I mean it was truly a joy to finally break through fear and hate with low numbers and start gearing up. We grew fast after that. Numbers swelled and before we knew it we had a player base of really skilled players for the most part who knew their classes well. We were excited at the prospects.....


That is where the classic experience stopped. Huge Variance windows .....Non-stop tracking of mobs....Bat-phones bringing forth zerg forces flooding the zones we were in when mobs spawned....It was like a butchered representation of what everquest was like to me and a lot of others. There was no shot to get a mob unless you did 1 or 2 things...... Do what they are doing or wait till a mob was late in window and sit there at it. We personally are a casual guild so there just was never gonna be enough people that wanted to spend their time on a tracker for the 5 or 6 hours they get to play and not be guaranteed of seeing the mob they are tracking... when they would rather be doing something fun with their time. So we chose the former route. We watched windows of mobs and started seeing which ones we had the force to kill and we took people to them. The next patch that came out took that option away with extended windows.

So now we are back to the point of trying to compete for mobs people need for their epics with casual players. A few months ago we were discussing shortening variance and having simulated patches. Instead we have a possible longer variance on raid mobs with no further discussion on simulated patch days. It makes you stop to ask yourself why are we intentionally going in a direction in the raid scene that alienates most of your server population from it ? I would be all for a rotation with any guild honestly. For just about any mob. Just to have fun attempting them again. I know there can't be a full sense of success for anyone when it turns into an FTE contest. It wasn't for me when I was there and we got Inny. It just leaves a bitter taste in your mouth.

I think I am with Splorf on this one. The most fun I have in EQ and ever had in EQ was raiding with the bare minimum and seeing if you could get it done. There is no challenge to the game when you send 40 people at a mob to zerg it to death. It gets the loot fast sure, but I read TMO say they enjoyed raiding to raid.... Not for the loot in another thread. Does TMO or FE honestly enjoy having 30 people from each side zerging a mob to death that lives a grand total of 10 seconds and poses no challenge at all ? I dunno I guess I am different, I enjoy games for the challenge they represent. There simply is no challenge besides a race on this server if you want to compete and you have to be ready to race 24 hours a day. So I support the OP in their endeavor.... Simply because it moves away from Alienating the largest part of the server.

The whole challenge IS the competition, anyone can figure out how to kill Trakanon after the game has been out 13 years. I love Full Circle and i had a great time with you guys, but you have to realize there is no solution to make everyone happy, unless we just want to instance every encounter.

[Ravager]

The whole challenge IS the competition, anyone can figure out how to kill Trakanon after the game has been out 13 years. I love Full Circle and i had a great time with you guys, but you have to realize there is no solution to make everyone happy, unless we just want to instance every encounter.

There's no solution to make everyone happy, but there is a solution to make the majority happy. It really doesn't make sense to cater to a small crowd that makes arbitrary work out of a video game.

[maverixdamighty]

There's no solution to make everyone happy, but there is a solution to make the majority happy. It really doesn't make sense to cater to a small crowd that makes arbitrary work out of a video game.

catering to? lol.

[Thulack]

catering to? lol.

Yes catering to the crowds(guilds) who have the people with bunch of free time on their hands to have people constantly tracking or have enough people to always have numbers on hand. This server is NOT a classic experience for most raiders.

[maverixdamighty]

i'd be interested to hear your raiding experience on live then if you are most raiders? If by catering to us it means we have to invest a ton of time to get any of these mobs then they can keep their catering...

[Ravager]

No one is telling you to invest the time. You are arbitrarily making the work for yourself tracking and zerging. And having no rotations caters to those who would rather track and zerg than just share things like 6 year olds.

[maverixdamighty]

No one is telling you to invest the time. You are arbitrarily making the work for yourself tracking and zerging. And having no rotations caters to those who would rather track and zerg than just share things like 6 year olds.

yup and because of that we get the mobs. having rotations caters to those who don't want to invest any time yet want all the same rewards as those who do invest the time.

at your job do you get promoted just because you show up or because you put forth the extra effort?

[Ravager]

This is a game not a job. You're making a job of it and ruining the game for the rest of the people who just want to play. And grats on Maestro this morning, that was some fine tracking FE did.

[Hailto]

Yes catering to the crowds(guilds) who have the people with bunch of free time on their hands to have people constantly tracking or have enough people to always have numbers on hand. This server is NOT a classic experience for most raiders.

There can never be another classic experience in that aspect because we all know the encounters by heart now, how spawn timers work, and have basically a complete knowledge of the game as a whole. Once this happens the only thing that offers a challenge is competition between guilds.

[Hailto]

This is a game not a job. You're making a job of it and ruining the game for the rest of the people who just want to play. And grats on Maestro this morning, that was some fine tracking FE did.

I think you're misunderstanding what raiding actually is. Raiding in and of itself is meant for the "hardcore" crowd. That is the whole point of raiding, the rest of the content is there for people who want to play more casually. You're trying to apply world of warcraft mentality to Everquest, it doesn't work.

[maverixdamighty]

This is a game not a job. You're making a job of it and ruining the game for the rest of the people who just want to play. And grats on Maestro this morning, that was some fine tracking FE did.

pretty sure you can still play the game regardless of what tmo/fe do...

thanks.

[kotton05]

Vianna you have no idea how trivial some of the kills are, you generalize what happens and use it as a fact. Some may be a zerg, but we've killed a dragon in VP with 20.

I along with the help of many others hard work and determination got FC their first dragon/god/VS(tho tainted) , did anyone give FC that shit? fuck no, did FC apps blow up yes? did you come back after the we got vs hmm? so you want to raid but dont want to put the hours in, well thats where tracking / batphone comes into play. I love FC but dont play the oh we casual card and want mobs, i had that planned out but you wanted no part of an FE alliance.

Since then i've seen 1 guild, i repeat 1 guild step up to trakanon, Chest led BDA into jug lair during trak window and i think they wiped cause a pet aggro'd to many jugs, i truly wished they killed him, Now thats another way, may not always work out but never know, Chest is a great guy, loves his guild and has been there in my eyes thru thick n thin and I applaud him and BDA for stepping up to trak. I had many talks with him about how to make the server better, it came down to TMO, i think all other guilds on board to show some chivalry, not much.. but some.. i'm partial to FC, some are partial to Div, some are partial to BDA... the list can go on, but at this point only Div/BDA i've seen out tracking and killing while mobs in window.

Not trying to insult Vianna in any way, i'm painting a picture on my personal PoV so others can ellaborate on what i've said....

SIRKEN said, GM's will not enforce shit, but if the guilds decided he wont say no either.....

Now hear me out, as ive come from leading planes raids with Ramblin in FC , to socking mobs and winning.. to joining FE and making getting trak my personal vendetta. I see no easy way for an outcome of rotations to happen, mobs like Inny/CT/Trak/VS/Sev/Fay will always be highly contested. Now saying that, I know Div and i'm sure bda is ready for some greenscale and some pods. So they are showing up more frequently at Sev. Showing they want it, so in my eyes, those guilds might earn a rotation if one if ever agree'd upon. So if youre wanting mobs put some bodies in the zone, camp out, track for now. Nothing will change. but lets say i'm tracking sev, rest of TMO/fe are in VP hashing it out over PD... which will happen. And sev pops, think we will log our alts to kill sev? I think very unlikely. Now would I send chest / ramblin / stac a tell saying hey this shits up hurry get here? Very likely. I speak on behalf of myself this is by no means is everyone in FE's pov.

In conclusion, inter guild relations are key, even if its just a hi and bye type relationship. I for one try to be as uplifting and thoughtful for anyone I run across. I suggest you do the same, talk in tells amongst members even if not officers, maybe someday something will happen when a mob is up and through the grape vine a guild hears and mobilizes, thatll only happen if the connection there is on good terms. I'd personally like to see FV/BDA/FC/Div get some epics. I know what it feels like to not see the dragon i wanted. I'm all for the underdog and if anyone has anything to add feel free to pm me/post here/ or send Merkk a tell ingame. I try to hear everyone out=-)

[Splorf22]

yup and because of that we get the mobs. having rotations caters to those who don't want to invest any time yet want all the same rewards as those who do invest the time.

at your job do you get promoted just because you show up or because you put forth the extra effort?

Look Mav (and Merkk who is basically saying the same thing), I am sympathetic to your argument here. You (and FE/TMO) put in the time - and it's not just time, its time doing retarded stuff like tracking - that the rest of us don't particularly want to.

Where your argument falls apart though is the fact that variance is not classic. And that's why contrary to Sirken's claim that the devs are looking out for everyone, in practice they are catering exclusively to the top tier guilds which are currently TMO/FE.

[maverixdamighty]

Look Mav, I am sympathetic to your argument here. You (and FE/TMO) put in the time - and it's not just time, its time doing retarded stuff like tracking - that the rest of us don't particularly want to.

Where your argument falls apart though is the fact that variance is not classic. And that's why it's FE/TMO that are being catered to right now, and not the casual guilds.

you think we asked for variance? I'd much prefer just knowing when the mobs died and fte competing instead of having to track. that's the part you keep ignoring. So what happens when there are server repops? All the excuses people are bringing up here go out the window. At the end of those days TMO/FE get every single raid mob of note minus 1-2?

[kotton05]

Look Mav (and Merkk who is basically saying the same thing), I am sympathetic to your argument here. You (and FE/TMO) put in the time - and it's not just time, its time doing retarded stuff like tracking - that the rest of us don't particularly want to.

Where your argument falls apart though is the fact that variance is not classic. And that's why contrary to Sirken's claim that the devs are looking out for everyone, in practice they are catering exclusively to the top tier guilds which are currently TMO/FE.

You argue variance, but man it'd be even worse then, for example dojo, drusella, tranix... Once more than 1 or 2 guilds get timer. It'd just be a sock and FTE battle which is plain stupid, but i understand not wanting to track. its boring. but thats where each member pulls their weight then tracking becomes easier.

[Splorf22]

you think we asked for variance? I'd much prefer just knowing when the mobs died and fte competing instead of having to track. that's the part you keep ignoring. So what happens when there are server repops? All the excuses people are bringing up here go out the window. At the end of those days TMO/FE get every single raid mob of note minus 1-2?

You totally missed my point here. You have said on this thread that rotations benefit the 'lazy' who don't want to 'put in the time' to get raid mobs. My point is that this time is an artificial non-classic addition that was put in by the gms.

Also, just pointing this out, but if variance was removed FE would get 1/2 of the mobs they get now at most. There would be 250 people on the spawn for every raid mob. That's why I don't think purely removing variance will work; it has to be combined with simultaneous repops. And yes, if a reset were to happen now TMO/FE would get everything. But if they were a regular occurrence? No way. You are kidding yourself if you don't think the rest of the server knows how to buy resist gear and zerg down bosses. We just aren't interested in doing it at 3AM or pushing the track button.

[kotton05]

You totally missed my point here. You have said on this thread that rotations benefit the 'lazy' who don't want to 'put in the time' to get raid mobs. My point is that this time is an artificial non-classic addition that was put in by the gms.

Also, just pointing this out, but if variance was removed FE would get 1/2 of the mobs they get now at most. There would be 250 people on the spawn for every raid mob. That's why I don't think purely removing variance will work; it has to be combined with simultaneous repops. And yes, if a reset were to happen now TMO/FE would get everything. But if they were a regular occurrence? No way. You are kidding yourself if you don't think the rest of the server knows how to buy resist gear and zerg down bosses. We just aren't interested in doing it at 3AM or pushing the track button.

I totally understand

Whats the middle ground between non variance / variance, a server repop. Once every 2 months? i think that reasonable, but you'd still need a batphone in place to tell everyone in your guild server repop happening.

[quido]

combine restful nights with a roll of duck tape and you too can conquer norrath

[kotton05]

Forgot time machine mr irons, but thanks for the constructive post.

[maverixdamighty]

You totally missed my point here. You have said on this thread that rotations benefit the 'lazy' who don't want to 'put in the time' to get raid mobs. My point is that this time is an artificial non-classic addition that was put in by the gms.

Also, just pointing this out, but if variance was removed FE would get 1/2 of the mobs they get now at most. There would be 250 people on the spawn for every raid mob. That's why I don't think purely removing variance will work; it has to be combined with simultaneous repops. And yes, if a reset were to happen now TMO/FE would get everything. But if they were a regular occurrence? No way. You are kidding yourself if you don't think the rest of the server knows how to buy resist gear and zerg down bosses. We just aren't interested in doing it at 3AM or pushing the track button.

agree to disagree. I said "enforced rotations" are for the lazy who don't want to put the time in. I'd have np rotating certain targets with guilds that I think have shown an effort to go after targets.

i think over the course of time we'd lose some mobs but at first we'd have a distinct advantage in fte battles as we've already been doing them. Also on server repops I bet you even after they happened for a while that TMO/FE would get the vast majority of mobs we wanted. There is more to eq than buying resist gear and zerging down targets but since you attend all of FE's raids obviously know we zerg down everything I'll let you keep thinking that.

[maverixdamighty]

p.s. go back and look at the dojo wipe fraps when tmo took advantage of us trying to wing a FTE (that was a good move by them). There is more than just f8'ing for FTE. If you have a good raid leader/guild that can make the call that the opposing force is going to wipe you just let them do so and then get the mob uncontested afterwards.

[oldschooltrader]

Tracking a mob makes u question, what am I doin with my life? Is this really worth it? This little blue/white/yellow/red name on my list will it ever show up? Will it b here in 5 hrs? 8hrs? 14 hrs? After spending those hours do I ever want to do this again bc the results Im seeking never come to fruition? I wonder how much weight Id lose if i spent all the time i was tracking excerising instead or how much fun id have hanging with friends or watching a movie with a girl? Why am I even playing this game, this doesnt feel like a game anymore...


/quit EQ


Most of us dont want to start thinking about our special EQ time in these manners yet tracking mobs bc of variance ruins the gameplay ( if ur stuck tracking). No arguing this if uve ever tracked, i bet tracking mobs would been a good way to crack terrorists at gitmo if P99 was in its heyday then...

[Splorf22]

If it were up to me, I would do 1 reset per week, with the reset probability proportional to the number of players usually on (just measure this one week; I'm guessing 6PM est would be about 2x as likely as 9AM est). Every other week the staff would inform the players several days in advance when the reset would occur. Finally, for 1 hour after the reset any player who logs into a raid zone logs in at the zone in (i.e. you can't camp out chars). The resets would . . . reset (hehe) the variance repops, but they would still occur, if for example one reset was a Monday and the next one was a Saturday. Also I would combine this with an online leaderboard so we can see who gets what. IMO the 'competition' faction has a much more legitimate case for bragging rights during repops.

[kotton05]

1 reset a week no way, 1 every 1-2 months would be better, a week would really just not be good for many reasons.

[maverixdamighty]

If it were up to me, I would do 1 reset per week, with the reset probability proportional to the number of players usually on (just measure this one week; I'm guessing 6PM est would be about 2x as likely as 9AM est). Every other week the staff would inform the players several days in advance when the reset would occur. Finally, for 1 hour after the reset any player who logs into a raid zone logs in at the zone in (i.e. you can't camp out chars). The resets would . . . reset (hehe) the variance repops, but they would still occur, if for example one reset was a Monday and the next one was a Saturday. Also I would combine this with an online leaderboard so we can see who gets what. IMO the 'competition' faction has a much more legitimate case for bragging rights during repops.

i agree with server repops won't get an argument from me there. However I thought this thread was about without any coding/gm involvement what could be done in the meantime. Looks like that has stalled out from the TMO side though. I disagree with the leaderboard. If i'm a power guild and i have a strategy to go after mobs in a certain strategic order I dont want that being displayed.

[Splorf22]

There is more to eq than buying resist gear and zerging down targets but since you attend all of FE's raids obviously know we zerg down everything I'll let you keep thinking that.

I didn't say you guys zerg everything down; I said the rest of the server knows that zerg works (well as long as you have enough levels/resist gear). And if tracking was no longer mandatory they would do that. Freudian slip? :D

[Splorf22]

1 reset a week no way, 1 every 1-2 months would be better, a week would really just not be good for many reasons.

Such as?

[maverixdamighty]

I didn't say you guys zerg everything down; I said the rest of the server knows that zerg works (well as long as you have enough levels/resist gear). And if tracking was no longer mandatory they would do that. Freudian slip? :D

zergs can be detrimental to raids when you just throw noobs at a target and you start ping ponging agro around because people don't know their jobs, have proper resists, etc.

[Lyra]

Remove the variance

Create server resets - some "completely random" and some scheduled

Let this SMALL community figure it out without GM intervention.

[maverixdamighty]

Remove the variance

Create server resets - some "completely random" and some scheduled

Let this SMALL community figure it out without GM intervention.

eliminate FTE along with this.

[Kagatob]

Simultaneous repops would be better. If for example at 12pm noon every Sunday Dojo as well as 4 other low/mid tier mobs spawned at the same time it would force communication between guilds. If both top guilds want the same mob that means they can enjoy their shitty FTE fest while the remaining guilds get a chance at the other mobs on that timetable.

I used the time as an example. You could make several different sets of mobs on different spawn cycles. 3, 3.5, 4, 4.25 etc. day spawns, always at 6am, noon, 6pm or midnight EST, but set like clockwork and having nothing to do with when the mob died.

I don't have the spawntimes of mobs memorized but I'm pretty sure that even in classic there were many mobs that had the same repop time, the only "non-classic" aspect of it would be fixing the respawn timer to be set on spawn and not kill which is still much closer to classic than the current variance system is and also serves to in many situations nullify the need for the FTE system.

Someone please explain to me why a system like this wouldn't work? I believe it would. How much better it would be for everyone if Fay/Gor/Sev/Tal always spawned together so no one guild could poopsock/FTE BS their way through life. Same would go for VS/Trak. This is of course assuming their classic spawn times aren't drastically different from each other to begin with.

[maverixdamighty]

Someone please explain to me why a system like this wouldn't work? I believe it would. How much better it would be for everyone if Fay/Gor/Sev/Tal always spawned together so no one guild could poopsock/FTE BS their way through life. Same would go for VS/Trak. This is of course assuming their classic spawn times aren't drastically different from each other to begin with.

it happens on server repop and same two guilds get all the kills? How easy is it to go to karnors kill vs, evac ej kill sev while you are otw to trakanon. while one guild is doing that the other is prob doing tal/gor/ct/inny etc as quickly as possible, but that does leave targets like dojo/fay/naggy/vox.

[kotton05]

Poopsocks don't exist no more. I dunno kaga, think just random repops once in a while is better but you do have an interesting ideA.

[kotton05]

Although I do not like it. I'd be more for just leaving a spawn up.

[Kagatob]

it happens on server repop and same two guilds get all the kills? How easy is it to go to karnors kill vs, evac ej kill sev while you are otw to trakanon. while one guild is doing that the other is prob doing tal/gor/ct/inny etc as quickly as possible, but that does leave targets like dojo/fay/naggy/vox.

Is server repop known in advance, or does it just happen?

[Woahnelly]

TMO does help people everyday, by selling no drop epic MQ's for absurd amounts of money. This type of behavior extorts the little guy in order to fatten your guild coffers. This in turn helps you to hire merc trackers, and the cycle repeats. Way to be classy.

[maverixdamighty]

Is server repop known in advance, or does it just happen?

just happens or at least the last two have been unanounced. if it's known in advance i guarantee fe/tmo has the people to log multiple characters at each spot and probably could have 2-3 raid forces at the same time.

[maverixdamighty]

This is exactly what i'm talking about... always these kind of insulting messages. Don't ask favors when you're not respecting us. So what, we should keep em banked so they can rott in the bank? Or maybe you'd prefer us to give em to you for free?

maybe the last line was insulting but the rest was accurate was it not? Also doesn't help your so-called leadership "eccezan" flaunts it around...

[Lyra]

log multiple characters

So does everyone just duel box and we all pretend it doesn't happen or what?

sissy(not the word I first wrote) cheaters

[finalgrunt]

You shouldn't have made that post in the first place, so that if we say 'no' we would be seen as assholes.

Then don't be one, what can I say :confused: What exactly is the issue here?

[maverixdamighty]

So does everyone just duel box and we all pretend it doesn't happen or what?

sissy(not the word I first wrote) cheaters

i have 4 different characters I can raid with. It means I log one at zone A, one at zone B, one at zone C, and one maybe i play or camp at zone D. If you somehow infer that is cheating don't know what to say.

[Lyra]

i have 4 different characters I can raid with. It means I log one at zone A, one at zone B, one at zone C, and one maybe i play or camp at zone D. If you somehow infer that is cheating don't know what to say.

Well I didn't quote this part: probably could have 2-3 raid forces at the same time.

[maverixdamighty]

Well I didn't quote this part: probably could have 2-3 raid forces at the same time.

10-15 ppl at vs, 20 ppl at sev, 20 ppl at another target?

Still cheating?

[kenzar]

Mav means, have charA logged in zoneA, charB logged in zoneB, charC logged in zoneC.

Login on charA -> kill targetA ->log out charA -> login charB -> kill targetB ->log out charB -> login charC -> kill target C -> ad infinitum.

In succession rather than simultaneously.

Its a sound tactic that IB used all the time for known resets.

[Lyra]

10-15 ppl at vs, 20 ppl at sev, 20 ppl at another target?

Still cheating?

Nope - not like you've shown......

[maverixdamighty]

Mav means, have charA logged in zoneA, charB logged in zoneB, charC logged in zoneC.

Login on charA -> kill targetA ->log out charA -> login charB -> kill targetB ->log out charB -> login charC -> kill target C -> ad infinitum.

In succession rather than simultaneously.

this.

[Lyra]

this.

Sounds like a blast!

(for maybe a week)

WTH? lmao

I swear to GOD I need to write this book in my head. People wouldn't believe this stuff.

[maverixdamighty]

Sounds like a blast!

(for maybe a week)

WTH? lmao

I swear to GOD I need to write this book in my head. People wouldn't believe this stuff.

so let me get this straight ppl complain about top guilds zerging, when these guilds split their raids to accomplish more with less, it's still looked down on. LOL.

You could right a book about it. Maybe add a chapter in the "toyota way" or any process improvement/efficiency type book.

Regardless this was all hypothetical, but I bet it would happen with announced server repops.

[Woahnelly]

So what, we should keep em banked so they can rott in the bank? Or maybe you'd prefer us to give em to you for free?

No, you should stop killing the mobs whose drops you don't need, plain and simple.

[kotton05]

When server repops happened, what other guilds aside from Tmo/fe got a mob that wasn't in sky or naggy/vox?

[maverixdamighty]

When server repops happened, what other guilds aside from Tmo/fe got a mob that wasn't in sky or naggy/vox?

think bda got fay after a divinity attempt that resulted in a wipe. div also got a dojo on one of them. that's all that I can recall.

[maverixdamighty]

So what if i need an AoN but some epic pieces drop? Should i destroy them ? I won't be selling em, so i won't be an asshole right ?

you going with this? Seriously? lol.

[Thana8088]

you going with this? Seriously? lol.

Yes, seriously. Can I not wish to have VS legs? I've had fear legs for almost tw...... a long time now. ;)

[maverixdamighty]

Yes, seriously. Can I not wish to have VS legs? I've had fear legs for almost tw...... a long time now. ;)

vs legs is one thing, but an AON? come on man! Who needs items from inny, trak, sev, fay, tal, gore?

[Thana8088]

so glad i play red


didnt even read this

You don't play here and you didn't read this thread, yet for some reason you felt the need to share with us.

Do you just need someone to talk to? =/

[Thana8088]

vs legs is one thing, but an AON? come on man! Who needs items from inny, trak, sev, fay, tal, gore?

Many clerics still need trak bp and fay drops the sexy water shield.

Are you saying you are only interested in epic pieces?

[maverixdamighty]

Many clerics still need trak bp and fay drops the sexy water shield.

Are you saying you are only interested in epic pieces?

i'm not saying anything. i don't care why you guys kill mob I was just responding to the AON reasoning for killing mobs. The server perception is that TMO kills mobs only to enhance their guild bank (again comment from someone else not me) and that AON reason was a poor attempt to counter that.

Edit: Here is the comment that started the discussion if you want to refute any of this. "TMO does help people everyday, by selling no drop epic MQ's for absurd amounts of money. This type of behavior extorts the little guy in order to fatten your guild coffers. This in turn helps you to hire merc trackers, and the cycle repeats. Way to be classy."

[Splorf22]

i have 4 different characters I can raid with. It means I log one at zone A, one at zone B, one at zone C, and one maybe i play or camp at zone D. If you somehow infer that is cheating don't know what to say.

Yes, I've mentioned this before (hey, I have two so I'm in the same position). My solution (in addition to the antipoopsock code) was that each IP would be bound to 1 L55+ character for 1 hour after a repop. Everyone whined about that but I think it would simply be necessary or exactly this would happen.

P.S. I know about Mavpal and Mavtank so I'm guessing Mavheal and Mavmag? Should I be auditioning for the Mentalist?

[Thana8088]

i'm not saying anything. i don't care why you guys kill mob I was just responding to the AON reasoning for killing mobs. The server perception is that TMO kills mobs only to enhance their guild bank (again comment from someone else not me) and that AON reason was a poor attempt to counter that.

Edit: Here is the comment that started the discussion if you want to refute any of this. "TMO does help people everyday, by selling no drop epic MQ's for absurd amounts of money. This type of behavior extorts the little guy in order to fatten your guild coffers. This in turn helps you to hire merc trackers, and the cycle repeats. Way to be classy."

I don't pretend to understand guild bank finances, but I do know that I don't pay anyone for hate/sky port stones or the many, many coths I get. I am sure there are individuals on this server who have way more plat than many guilds. Hopefully TMO isn't hurting for money (I still need to go to sky as often as possible, DAMN BEE QUEEN) because they do sell some of our loots.

So tell me, what would be a good price to let someone come loot an epic piece? I am really curious about what you would propose.

[Woahnelly]

I think a nice way to give back to the server and turn your image around would be to do something fun. Rather than selling an epic piece for 400k, gather up a bunch of people that need it and do trivia or something else cool. Guild bank won't miss the money because you can still make lots of cash of VS legs and other high-end dropables. Just a suggestion

[Thana8088]

I think a nice way to give back to the server and turn your image around would be to do something fun. Rather than selling an epic piece for 400k, gather up a bunch of people that need it and do trivia or something else cool. Guild bank won't miss the money because you can still make lots of cash of VS legs and other high-end dropables. Just a suggestion

Ya know, that's a pretty cool idea. There's a lot of variables with these highly-contested mobs, but I'm gonna bring this up on our forums. Thanks!

[maverixdamighty]

Yes, I've mentioned this before (hey, I have two so I'm in the same position). My solution (in addition to the antipoopsock code) was that each IP would be bound to 1 L55+ character for 1 hour after a repop. Everyone whined about that but I think it would simply be necessary or exactly this would happen.

P.S. I know about Mavpal and Mavtank so I'm guessing Mavheal and Mavmag? Should I be auditioning for the Mentalist?

anleus (i know it was given to me and didn't feel like leveling a druid myself), mavheal/mavnuke (naggy/vox alts)

also at the request of someone made a shaman named mavatar.

[Ravager]

so glad i play red


didnt even read this

So glad I don't play red. Wish I hadn't read this.

[Freakish]

Boss kills aren't just about the loots. It's about the experience of going up with 23 (more or less) other people and killing gods and dragons.

Trivia question! What is Venril Sathir's max hit?
I wouldn't know, he's never been up long enough for me to get hit.

How often does Trakanon banish players from his lair?
Wait, this can actually refresh?

How often does Phinigrel Autropolos spawn?
I bought my rogue epic lol.

Don't act like you're a savior for killing everything on this server, everyone in this thread knows its bullshit.

[Thana8088]

Don't act like you're a savior for killing everything on this server, everyone in this thread knows its bullshit.

Who is acting like a savior? Your quote didn't come through.

[Freakish]

"We still need every mob that spawns" attitude.

[Thana8088]

"We still need every mob that spawns" attitude.

People will track the mobs they want something from.
Although I am sure TMO was at fault for the BDA/FE Maestro fiasco today, we weren't there. We weren't tracking him. In fact, we haven't been tracking a few things lately.

[maverixdamighty]

People will track the mobs they want something from.
Although I am sure TMO was at fault for the BDA/FE Maestro fiasco today, we weren't there. We weren't tracking him. In fact, we haven't been tracking a few things lately.

why do you feel the need to deflect when a simple question is asked?

[Thana8088]

why do you feel the need to deflect when a simple question is asked?

Can you repeat the question please? Seems I missed that quote, too.

[maverixdamighty]

Can you repeat the question please? Seems I missed that quote, too.

the common theme is why is tmo killing mobs they don't need then charging ridiculous prices for the epic drops they don't need. Your witty deflection is tmo will probably get blamed for the bda/fe maestro fiasco today. Difference is FE has mains that still don't have war epics not our 5th alts.

edit: like i said i don't personally care why or what you kill. you can play how you want to play, but that was the common theme coming up concerning TMO. You needless started talking about bda/fe incident that happened today rather than addressing the point.

[quido]

Mav if it wouldn't be really kitschy to copy your guild's funny troll, I feel you would be the star of a similar webpage created by us.

I don't see it happening for reasons stated, but cmon lol, you gotta admit that would be a good one too.


Mav your question has been answered a number of times. Just because it's a complex answer doesn't mean it hasn't been answered.

[Sephyre]

From the outside looking in, the state of endgame raiding on this server kills the drive to get to 60 a bit.

The people with the most time on their hands are always going to be on top, but if waking up at 3AM to kill a mob a few minutes after it spawns, while praying your puller threw the first javelin, is how it's always going to be then forget that.

It's something that comes up a lot in exp groups (especially in the 40s and 50s when the number of people levelling up thins out quite a bit).

The chatter is pretty much consistently 'you have to join TMO or FE and wake up at all hours if you want to kill raid mobs'.

Variance only helps the guilds at the top stay there, as only they are going to be willing to kill mobs at 3AM with batphones and 24/7 tracking. Effectively forcing others to become the same thing in order to compete.

Even when a smaller guild is in fear/hate and a lower tier raid mob spawns, TMO/FE are just running over the top to get there.

Good on them both for having the resources/effort to do that, but they shouldn't really get the boost from the server rules that variance gives them.

It should really be simulated full patch respawns, no variance, FTE shout.

Sure, the top guilds may deliberately kill something so it respawns at 3AM to keep others from it, but it gets cleared with the patch respawn anyway.

If the smaller guilds know something is going to spawn at 6pm, they are more likely to be able to show up and take a shot at it (standing shoulder to shoulder with TMO and FE) rather than knowing it will spawn 'sometime' between 9am and 6pm that day.

Plus the full patch days will give smaller guilds something to aim for, rather than nothing.



Alternatively, leave everything as is, focus on getting Velious out and release a brand new server at the same time tagged with 'rotation server'.

Let the community administer the rotations on the new server (bans for guilds that break it, with community providing the proof) and you'll have a place for the endgame guilds who can 24/7 powergame (eg: here) as well as those who would like to play classic Everquest without waking up at 3AM to do it.

[maverixdamighty]

Mav if it wouldn't be really kitschy to copy your guild's funny troll, I feel you would be the star of a similar webpage created by us.

I don't see it happening for reasons stated, but cmon lol, you gotta admit that would be a good one too.

go for it. there are quite a few differences though. that page was created because the person in question was soo insecure he ran to GMs everytime anything related to his RL came up, so I'm sure someone created a page where the joke could continue on. I'm completely opposite I am not ashamed of how I look, the sports I participate in, etc. I can see how you would not see the difference, but carry on with the site.

[Freakish]

Right. It's totally feasible for me to track Innoruuk for 96 hours(+24 hours repeating if it falls within the last 15% of spawn window).

These are guild efforts. I've tracked Faydedar as a necromancer. Don't need anything. I've had druids track Inny. As far as I know, not a single thing drops from Inny for them. To track these mobs and have an effort at them requires effort from a LOT of people. Which is why these huge guilds exist.

Here is a thread from those who don't have the resources to do this. And your response is, sorry we need everything, but if you want your epic piece please deposit 200,000-500,000 platinum into our bank.

[maverixdamighty]

Mav if it wouldn't be really kitschy to copy your guild's funny troll, I feel you would be the star of a similar webpage created by us.

I don't see it happening for reasons stated, but cmon lol, you gotta admit that would be a good one too.


Mav your question has been answered a number of times. Just because it's a complex answer doesn't mean it hasn't been answered.

not my question pretty sure I stated that multiple times. You guys are free to kill whatever you want in my opinion.

[quido]

the content, not the circumstances, is what makes it truly funny

[Ravager]

People will track the mobs they want something from.
Although I am sure TMO was at fault for the BDA/FE Maestro fiasco today, we weren't there. We weren't tracking him. In fact, we haven't been tracking a few things lately.

Noone said TMO had anything to do with it. But I will now. TMO wasn't there this morning, but they are responsible for the raid scene being what it is. If it weren't for TMO, FE wouldn't be FE.

[maverixdamighty]

the content, not the circumstances, is what makes it truly funny

one being a fat, sociopath, virgin and the other being an in shape injured athlete who posts factual information and "proves it." Go for it.

[arsenalpow]

Mav if it wouldn't be really kitschy to copy your guild's funny troll, I feel you would be the star of a similar webpage created by us.

I don't see it happening for reasons stated, but cmon lol, you gotta admit that would be a good one too.


Mav your question has been answered a number of times. Just because it's a complex answer doesn't mean it hasn't been answered.

i expect a meccezan spinoff asap, just translate the page to spanish and put mexican hats on all the pictures

[Thana8088]

one being a fat, sociopath, virgin and the other being an in shape injured athlete who posts factual information and "proves it." Go for it.

You are going with this? Seriously?

Don't take this the wrong way, but after this and your divorce ribbing on Alawen, I kind of want to shoot you in the face.

[Woahnelly]

You are going with this? Seriously?

Don't take this the wrong way......I kind of want to shoot you in the face.

LALS!

[finalgrunt]

Keep Rnf material to RnF please :o

For people in TMO saying they still need some targets for items, in my proposition, you still get 9 spawns out of 10. So this is not an issue.

And don't tell me that 1 out of 10 times is a huge difference which will make your guild getting or not the said items :rolleyes:

[finalgrunt]

Wow, you're even treating us of assholes, yourself, if we say 'no'... that's even worse

You don't understand. I never called or mentionned anything remotely close to this "assholes" term you're speaking about. You said it would paint you as such (it's coming from you!). Therefore if you believe that's the case, then you're still free to choose to be one or not. But that has got nothing to do with me.

If anything, you're playing the victim card here (you're the only one who reacted this way btw).

[Socratic]

All the "tmo doesn't need loots" comments crack me up. Have you guys been in a raid guild for any length of time? There is always a cycle of players coming in to replace old ones who have faded out for whatever reason. A raid guild will always need loot.

FE got quite a few Fay's in a row, but I bet they still have quite a few players that would love loot from that mob. I'm in TMO and I know I would love that shield.

Personally I'm all for giving a week of spawns once a month to guilds other than fe/tmo, but it's not because we wouldn't use the loot.

[finalgrunt]

"Then don't be one, what can I say What exactly is the issue here?"

one, one what?

You come and say "that will make me an ass****". I only answered: "then don't be one" if that's an issue for you. You look like somebody coming to me to tell about his fidelity issues, and I tell that person to straighten up, and do the right thing, and then that person yells at me for calling him unfaithful. *shrugs* You're wierd, sorry.

[finalgrunt]

All the "tmo doesn't need loots" comments crack me up. Have you guys been in a raid guild for any length of time? There is always a cycle of players coming in to replace old ones who have faded out for whatever reason. A raid guild will always need loot.

FE got quite a few Fay's in a row, but I bet they still have quite a few players that would love loot from that mob. I'm in TMO and I know I would love that shield.

Personally I'm all for giving a week of spawns once a month to guilds other than fe/tmo, but it's not because we wouldn't use the loot.

Agreed with this. But if you get to raid the said targets 9 times out of 10 for non priority targets (which means your guild in its vast majority doesn't need anything anymore), does it prevent you to gear up new people? I don't believe so.

[maverixdamighty]

You are going with this? Seriously?

Don't take this the wrong way, but after this and your divorce ribbing on Alawen, I kind of want to shoot you in the face.

couldn't care less what you want to do so go for it. glad to see you fitting in with the standard TMO deflection/spin artists.

[Rhambuk]

I was gone for a week and was glad to see this had stayed out of RnF but it looks like its headed that way.

End this petty squabbling and back on topic.

[finalgrunt]

Oh well. You can't understand everything i guess... everyone has their limit. Anyways, TMO doesn't give charity. You want mobs? Do as Sirken said and find a real solution using your brain and relationships instead of begging publicly, hoping we would care of increasing our reputation by giving you what you ask.

This comment also is for Maverix, who can't or doesn't want to understand that we stilll need loots off the mobs we're killing. It is what it is man, you understand it or not but the facts are still the same. We still need items dropping off everything we kill. We no longer track Maestro who's not considered as a raid target, only members having a warrior alt needing the hand are free to track it but there won't be any DKP for it. We lowered priorities on outdoor dragons as well, but we still need Fay.

You think AoN was not a good example but what do we say to our members and applicants wanting it ? and Shield of rainbow hues ? CT still drops stuff people need in TMO.

You admit yourself your guild doesn't need Maestro anymore. If your guild accepts my proposition, Maestro would be part of the list for example, and you would still have a go at it 9 times out 10. Same goes for Fay.

So which other targets are not considered a top priority then?

P.S: CT is considered part of priority list and is not included in the proposition as we speak.

[Thana8088]

You admit yourself your guild doesn't need Maestro anymore. If your guild accepts my proposition, Maestro would be part of the list for example, and you would still have a go at it 9 times out 10. Same goes for Fay.

So which other targets are not considered a top priority then?

P.S: CT is considered part of priority list and is not included in the proposition as we speak.


If we don't need Maestro and we aren't tracking Maestro and two completely different other guilds race to kill Maestro (Div not being one of them), what is it you want from us exactly?

[Jarnauga]

TMO logic: "my level 17 cleric needs his epic asap"

Think i'm joking ? That's actually what happened at the first ragefire after the rotation ended ! :p too lazy to look for the rnf thread..

[finalgrunt]

If we don't need Maestro and we aren't tracking Maestro and two completely different other guilds race to kill Maestro (Div not being one of them), what is it you want from us exactly?

To make a list of such non priority targets for you and FE to make sure there isn't interference during the said week. Maybe for some targets, either TMO or FE don't really want to kill it, but do it nonetheless in fear that the other guild kills it and brags about it for example. Or because you need it but not that much, you'll still track it loosely.

If we can create a list of such non priority targets for both top guilds, then we can have that free week started. And the rest of the time, you'll keep doing what you do, which allows your guild to still gear up new recruits for example.

[Thana8088]

To make a list of such non priority targets for you and FE to make sure there isn't interference during the said week. Maybe for some targets, either TMO or FE don't really want to kill it, but do it nonetheless in fear that the other guild kills it and brags about it for example. Or because you need it but not that much, you'll still track it loosely.

If we can create a list of such non priority targets for both top guilds, then we can have that free week started. And the rest of the time, you'll keep doing what you do, which allows your guild to still gear up new recruits for example.

So you want us to coordinate with FE and make the effort to schedule a week and then tell you exactly when you should be tracking the mob because we won't be doing it to save you the trouble of actually just tracking it?

Huh, interesting concept.

[finalgrunt]

So you want us to coordinate with FE and make the effort to schedule a week and then tell you exactly when you should be tracking the mob because we won't be doing it to save you the trouble of actually just tracking it?

Huh, interesting concept.

No, not at all. I'm doing the coordination to get that list updated. I would then keep track of the said week and notify both guilds when it starts and ends. Can keep a Google calendar updated for that matter.

Then it will be up to smaller guilds to losely track the targets, and engage them the way they want to (be it FFA, rotation, mix of both in a tiered way etc.). While you can keep your trackers focused on the priority targets (which again are not part of the deal, like CT, VS, Trak, VP etc.).

If anything, it helps both top guild focus on their priorities while giving a bit of a vacation for non priority targets.

Now, you can only agree to the fact it's actually an interesting concept.

So please, why don't we give it a try guys, like 1 or 2 occurences and see how it goes. I assure you the raid scene will remain the way it already is for the top guilds. I don't mean to change that.

[Thana8088]

No, not at all. I'm doing the coordination to get that list updated. I would then keep track of the said week and notify both guilds when it starts and ends.

Then it will be up to smaller guilds to track the targets, and engage them the way they want to (be it FFA, rotation, mix of both in a tiered way etc.). While you can keep your trackers focused on the priority targets (which again are not part of the deal).

If anything, it helps both top guild focus on their priorities while giving a bit of a vacation for non priority targets.

Now, you can only agree to the fact it's actually an interesting concept.

So please, why don't we give it a try guys, like 1 or 2 occurences and see how it goes. I assure you the raid scene will remain the way it already is for the top guilds. I don't mean to change that.

I can't promise anything and I am sure many people will think this has a "rotation aroma", but we ARE having internal discussions about what we can do for smaller guilds.

I mean, we aren't unreasonable. No-one's going to eat your eyes.

[finalgrunt]

I can't promise anything and I am sure many people will think this has a "rotation aroma", but we ARE having internal discussions about what we can do for smaller guilds.

I mean, we aren't unreasonable. No-one's going to eat your eyes.

I know you are reasonable, that's why I'm pushing it. A reasonable request for reasonable people. I'm sure we can work something out ;)

[Xadion]

no

[OMGWTF420]

TMO logic: "my level 17 cleric needs his epic asap"

Think i'm joking ? That's actually what happened at the first ragefire after the rotation ended ! :p too lazy to look for the rnf thread..

the frenchman tells true story

[OMGWTF420]

I can't promise anything and I am sure many people will think this has a "rotation aroma", but we ARE having internal discussions about what we can do for smaller guilds.

I mean, we aren't unreasonable. No-one's going to eat your eyes.

not to be rude, but, weve heard that before. and imo opinion its a little too late, FE is stomping you guys all over the place (in game and in forumquest) of course you guys would want to come to the bargaining table now. but what would the little guy have to gain from it?

[finalgrunt]

not to be rude, but, weve heard that before. and imo opinion its a little too late, FE is stomping you guys all over the place (in game and in forumquest) of course you guys would want to come to the bargaining table now. but what would the little guy have to gain from it?

Well whoever is #1 or #2 on said targets isn't important. Both of top guilds are in another league when it comes to mobilization and tracking power. If FE decided to leave a target up, without TMO consent, we know how it would end. That's the reason we need agreement from both top guilds on this (got FE agreement, some TMO members seem to be ok with it). I now hope it settles down and we can get one occurence started in the coming weeks.

If TMO is looking for ways to give some room for the smaller guilds, this is the perfect opportunity.

[Tierael]

Well whoever is #1 or #2 on said targets isn't important. Both of top guilds are in another league when it comes to mobilization and tracking power. If FE decided to leave a target up, without TMO consent, we know how it would end. That's the reason we need agreement from both top guilds on this (got FE agreement, some TMO members seem to be ok with it). I now hope it settles down and we can get one occurence started in the coming weeks.

If TMO is looking for ways to give some room for the smaller guilds, this is the perfect opportunity.

Patience pays off. Plenty of good people exist within TMO and I hoped their voices would get in eventually. Even amongst the bad, there are realistic and respectable opinions.

If it all comes out to "TMO/FE won't track X target at Y time, we decide, we leave it up for any other guild to FTE." or anything similar to, this will all have been worth it. I'd look forward to some friendly competition with some other guilds. You meet more people that way.