see invis (to undead) undeads

[DoucLangur]

Since one of the recent patches, sebilis (crypt) now seems to have undead mobs that see through IVU - I just got harmtouched by one, and my IVU faded due to the harmtouch.

For all I can recall from kunark era classic, you could move through crypt with IVU like you could here on p1999 until some months ago.

Was this maybe a mistake when more see invis mobs were added to sebilis (which, btw, will make the zone hard to navigate for duos/trios)?

Kind regards

Slozem

[Gel Mibson]

OP is asking if it's classic that they see through IVU - there's a quote on ZAM that said dar ghoul knight saw through some rog's sneak/hide, that was posted in 03...not sure if they patched in in luclin, but iirc it didn't back in kunark era.

[fullmetalcoxman]

He wants to know if they are supposed to see through IVU, not if they are supposed to be there.

edit. damn, gel beat me to it.

[Sundawg]

Its intended that they see through ITU.

there's a quote on ZAM that said dar ghoul knight saw through some rog's sneak/hide

I would love to hear from classic era rogues about NPCs that would see through their sneak/hide but don't here on p99, to help point me in the right direction for further research on that topic.

edit: Would mostly like to know about rogues and ver. 1.0 of Plane of Fear. Anyone have info on hide/sneak in classic Plane of Fear? The way its set up now has me wondering, but I've had trouble finding information.

[DoucLangur]

So one quote on allakhazam is what we based the patch on? I mean... most of the times I heard a rogue being surprised about some mob seeing through "sneak & hide" turned out to be because they accidentally hit one or the other ability hotkey and became visible...

Maybe we shouldn't put too much emphasis on a single comment by some anonymous poster?

I know that at least later, during PoP, my 65 necro would solo crypt nameds all the time - and she always invised to undead through the crypt frog mobs. Of course that doesn't say much about pre-PoP - but I really doubt SOE would have patched content over 1.5 years old at the time to make it easier(i.e. removing mobs that see through IVU)...

[nilbog]

So one quote on allakhazam is what we based the patch on? I mean... most of the times I heard a rogue being surprised about some mob seeing through "sneak & hide" turned out to be because they accidentally hit one or the other ability hotkey and became visible...

Maybe we shouldn't put too much emphasis on a single comment by some anonymous poster?

Read it again.

[Gel Mibson]

Here's the quote from ZAM (http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/npc.html?id=4966) regarding a dar ghoul knight he faced My 51 rogue got aggro'd with sneak+hide on. That was the only mob in OS that I have encountered that has this ability. I have not been to see the myconids yet, or Trak. But I have been pretty much everywhere else.

[DoucLangur]

So you confirm that the patch was based on a single comment on allakhazam? Posted by someone none of us knows, who might as well have accidentally deactivated his sneak or hide?
I mean - no one even reacted to that comment. It was posted and forgotten.

Apart from that - the comment is from June 2003 - that is after Legacy of Ykesha release. I would be surprised that in over three years of Kunark out, in the prime of EQ with hundreds of thousands of active players, no one else ever noticed this or wrote a comment on this.

Of course I have no proof it was otherwise - but I would say we've had it the way it was for a reason (because that's the way hundreds of p1999 players/devs remembered it). To change it on the basis of a single non-contemporary zam comment seems a bit thin.

On a sidenote: Is seeing through sneak+hide really the exact same as seeing through invis to undead, for undead mobs? I am really surprised no one ever posted anything about mobs seeing through IVU there... There's only so many rogues - but many more people who would have moved through with IVU and noticed this...

[Sundawg]

So you confirm that the patch was based on a single comment on allakhazam?...

No

[Thulack]

So you confirm that the patch was based on a single comment on allakhazam? Posted by someone none of us knows, who might as well have accidentally deactivated his sneak or hide?
I mean - no one even reacted to that comment. It was posted and forgotten.

Apart from that - the comment is from June 2003 - that is after Legacy of Ykesha release. I would be surprised that in over three years of Kunark out, in the prime of EQ with hundreds of thousands of active players, no one else ever noticed this or wrote a comment on this.

Of course I have no proof it was otherwise - but I would say we've had it the way it was for a reason (because that's the way hundreds of p1999 players/devs remembered it). To change it on the basis of a single non-contemporary zam comment seems a bit thin.

On a sidenote: Is seeing through sneak+hide really the exact same as seeing through invis to undead, for undead mobs? I am really surprised no one ever posted anything about mobs seeing through IVU there... There's only so many rogues - but many more people who would have moved through with IVU and noticed this...


Did you even read the original response by Sundawg? Sun said that it is intentional for things to see through IVU as it is classic. The snippit that you are refering to was about sneak+hide being seen through which sundawg was also interested in hearing more info about. Nothing has been set because of that one anon post but Sun just wanted to know if anyone has more info on it. The mob seeing through IVU is a completely different question and was answered.

[DoucLangur]

The mob seeing through IVU is a completely different question and was answered.

Definitely not. The statement that it is intended was followed up with the quote from zam - the one single comment.

And my OP was asking what the change was based on. Because my assumption (and this may be wrong?) is that it was introduced recently. Furthermore the one goal for p1999 development has always been to reproduce vanilla eq in game mechanics. So everything is intended to be classic, and the problem lies in finding out what classic mechanics were.

Therefore, I am repeating my question, and adding a pre-question to make it simpler to answer:
1) dear developers, was see invis (to undead) for some undead crypt frogs in the game since kunark release? And if not,
2) what was the basis for the change?

I understood the previous posts as "1) No, it was patched" and "2) the basis for the patch was that one comment from zam".

I find it pretty moot to evade direct answers. If you don't want to change it because you have admin superpowers and can do whatever you like, then feel free to simply ignore my post. It's your server, you can do with it what you want. Like that needed saying.

But if there was a reason behind a change (if this was changed as I assume), then I would appreciate a link to the basis for that patch, because it affects gameplay in a negative way for many players, by making part of the zone inaccessible for some classes on their own.

[nilbog]

It seems like you got hung up on

OP is asking if it's classic that they see through IVU - there's a quote on ZAM that said dar ghoul knight saw through some rog's sneak/hide, that was posted in 03...not sure if they patched in in luclin, but iirc it didn't back in kunark era.

Sundawg was asking for further information.

Regarding what was actually changed, I'll let him give you specifics.

[Treats]

Its intended that they see through ITU.



I would love to hear from classic era rogues about NPCs that would see through their sneak/hide but don't here on p99, to help point me in the right direction for further research on that topic.

edit: Would mostly like to know about rogues and ver. 1.0 of Plane of Fear. Anyone have info on hide/sneak in classic Plane of Fear? The way its set up now has me wondering, but I've had trouble finding information.

Maybe Nirgon could have his friend look up a couple NPC's in the Velious database he has access to (it might not show NPC stats though).

There may have been only one field for whether the mob Sees Invis/Sees IVU.

If no field was listed for a mob seeing Hide there was most likely no difference between Hide and Invisibility.

I'll try and find more information about this and post in the other thread.

It can't be correct as is here now, Rogues did not do CR's because of this -- Monks did.

[DoucLangur]

This may be relevant / applicable to Sebilis crypt as well:
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.games.everquest/XV1K7AaPZAM/CkvMi75p1XUJ

Sneak/Hide are different from invis. There are things which will see
through one and not the other. Of relevance to rogues: Ghoul Assassin will
see through sneak/hide, but not through IVU. [..]