not a single player has told me to plan on raiding

[odiecat99]

If you want to poopsock, and live your life on EQ and probably are fat and greasy, join TMO. They get the best raid targets. FE is in second when it comes to raiding. Other raiding guilds include Divinity, Taken, BDA, and I think I seen Rapture in hate the other day.

Basicially if you don't blow TMO, you don't get leet items. The GM's seem to like TMO the most. Even though they are known RMT'ers, cheaters, and basically hateful douches.

[Thulack]

If you want to poopsock, and live your life on EQ and probably are fat and greasy, join TMO. They get the best raid targets. FE is in second when it comes to raiding. Other raiding guilds include Divinity, Taken, BDA, and I think I seen Rapture in hate the other day.

Basicially if you don't blow TMO, you don't get leet items. The GM's seem to like TMO the most. Even though they are known RMT'ers, cheaters, and basically hateful douches.

We have our difference Odie but i like your style here.

[odiecat99]

P.S. nothing about this server reflects a true classic experience. So when the whole arguments about something on this server being classic or not come up I laugh my ass off. There are so many things that haven't followed the classic timeline, and shit, blue diamonds didn't drop until velious. I do like the idea of TMO not hogging raid targets. They are greedy. They only kill most of the stuff because they don't want other guilds to get items. To me this is a douche move. I think they already got all their epics and phat lewts for their 7 alts a piece that they have. Hopefully when velious drops, some people might be able to get their epics, instead of buying the MQ's off some douchbebags in TMO that sell them for 375k to 1.5million PP.

[nilbog]

P.S. nothing about this server reflects a true classic experience.

Nothing? Sorry that you feel that way.

[odiecat99]

The server needs less casual trash like you

Tiggles talking about trash, that shit's classic. Kid is a fat slob who spies on FE forums.

[odiecat99]

Nothing? Sorry that you feel that way.

Sorry Nilbog, I truely enjoy and playing on this server and I am very grateful that it's free to play and available. But there is way to much stuff that isn't classic.

[Splorf22]

Nothing? Sorry that you feel that way.

FWIW Nilbog I totally understand your attitude. People are complaining about a great free service. Rather than take it personally, I hope it just goes to show you how irritating the raid scene on this server can be.

[Skope]

Nothing? Sorry that you feel that way.

He's gone off the deep end, but not before bringing up a legitimate point:

The last couple of changes have specifically benefited only TMO/FE.

FWIW Nilbog I totally understand your attitude. People are complaining about a great free service. Rather than take it personally, I hope it just goes to show you how irritating the raid scene on this server can be.

That's what I'm afraid of. I don't want it to end up as a GM-bashing contest and a bunch of whiny cunts who aren't grateful of the work you guys have put in, but I'd be lying if I didn't have some rather serious concerns that you've ignored for a period of years and the way things have been going as of late.

[odiecat99]

FWIW Nilbog I totally understand your attitude. People are complaining about a great free service. Rather than take it personally, I hope it just goes to show you how irritating the raid scene on this server can be.

see my post above. and yes end game raiding on this server is quite irritating. I see many people trying out EQC when it drops. I will stay on p99, but I will see how that server is when it drops in 2015. The TMO / FE schoolyard beef has gotten quite aggravating.

[odiecat99]

He's gone off the deep end, but not before bringing up a legitimate point:

The last couple of changes have specifically benefited only TMO/FE.



That's what I'm afraid of. I don't want it to end up as a GM-bashing contest and a bunch of whiny cunts who aren't grateful of the work you guys have put in, but I'd be lying if I didn't have some rather serious concerns that you've ignored for a period of years and the way things have been going as of late.

I don't ever bash GM's, I just see certain degrees of favoritism towards certain guilds on the server that are known for having cheating / RMTing players. They get banned and just reroll character and buy accounts because of the endless amounts of PP these guilds have stockpiled for the past 2 years. And they know about it.

[Nirgon]

P.S. nothing about this server reflects a true classic experience.

I'm a total snob about classic content and mechanics and they've got quite a bit right here.

And for what isn't right, I think they are at least aware of it now.

The source code they had to start with was.. pretty damn far from classic.

[odiecat99]

I'm a total snob about classic content and mechanics and they've got quite a bit right here.

And for what isn't right, I think they are at least aware of it now.

The source code they had to start with was.. pretty damn far from classic.

I wasn't aware of the source code being far from classic.

But you're right, at least they are aware of the problems now.

[nilbog]

Sorry Nilbog, I truely enjoy and playing on this server and I am very grateful that it's free to play and available. But there is way to much stuff that isn't classic.

This is fine. I *want* to make things more classic, but it's difficult to even read these threads when non-classicness is addressed so generally. Like, your example that blue diamonds shouldn't drop till velious.. isn't correct. Blue diamonds dropped in Kunark, but blue diamond jewelry shouldn't be craftable till Velious. This was corrected 2 months ago, retroactively, but a patch hasn't occurred.

It's the raid scene and rules, then? If there's something I can fix, I go out of my way to fix it. If it's generally complaining about raiding, then address it as such. I think the raid scene is trash as well. What's funny about that is.. if you played on a server with top 5 worldwide guilds, it's pretty damn classic and awful. Da`Kor was my experience, but the difference is they did the most they could with the fewest people they could. That.. is not the zerg mentality of present day.

FWIW Nilbog I totally understand your attitude. People are complaining about a great free service. Rather than take it personally, I hope it just goes to show you how irritating the raid scene on this server can be.

Nah, not taking it personally. I just want specific examples so I can fix it if it's fixable. As I said above, rules and player interactions are quite more difficult to fix than something actually having to do with Everquest...


The last couple of changes have specifically benefited only TMO/FE.

That's what I'm afraid of. I don't want it to end up as a GM-bashing contest and a bunch of whiny cunts who aren't grateful of the work you guys have put in, but I'd be lying if I didn't have some rather serious concerns that you've ignored for a period of years and the way things have been going as of late.

Didn't ignore anything that I'm aware of. I've responded to the raid scene proposals and various other things. I have a vote in management decisions. Essentially, I want to recreate classic eq. When it goes beyond the actual work, it ... sucks. Managing people sucks. Managing people's expectations sucks worse.

It is literally impossible to please everyone, but we seriously do what we can. Zerg guilds, on both servers, I wish you would drop some numbers or create rules or rotations with other guilds. It's ridiculous that it reaches the point that management is blamed for what happens in game.

[Skope]

at least they are aware of the problems now.

They've been aware of problems before, and these problems in particular, but the only thing that we've seen are changes which are problems in themselves.

I refuse to believe haven't been aware that variance hasn't worked a single day since it was implemented.

[enr4ged]

i'm in FE and in order to win the race in velious you need to be farming the best gear possible, which is in velious. i don't think you understand the dynamics of winning in velious.

I think what you meant to say is "you need to stop others from farming the best gear possible" that's the douchebag moves everyone is talking about. And camping out all old content just so you can deny others epics and then turn around and sell them for 500k to people. Hmm what ever do you do with all that platinum... I wonder.

[Gadwen]

It is literally impossible to please everyone, but we seriously do what we can. Zerg guilds, on both servers, I wish you would drop some numbers or create rules or rotations with other guilds. It's ridiculous that it reaches the point that management is blamed for what happens in game.

I think it just comes down to the fact that EQ players and MMO players in general expect the games staff to police players. I'm not saying that you guys don't, but I think that's why people are asking you to do something, and lets not forget that a lot of people are really helpless in this situation.

My suggestion would be to get rid of Rants and Flames, letting the community behave like it does on the official forums (regardless of it being in a difference section) carries over into the game, and lets those shitheads wear their douchebaggery like a badge of honor. Not that it would really fix the raid scene, but it may prevent future douchebags that join from blossoming into full grown RnFers.

[arsenalpow]

It is literally impossible to please everyone, but we seriously do what we can. Zerg guilds, on both servers, I wish you would drop some numbers or create rules or rotations with other guilds. It's ridiculous that it reaches the point that management is blamed for what happens in game.

You're absolutely right, there will always be some dissent regarding the raid scene. But right now 10% of the server population is making the rest of the population miserable when it comes to raiding. I know you want to make things as classic as possible, regarding that thought there was a post a while back talking about the No CSR policy concerning VP. It outlined what the spirit of the No CSR policy was about, and no where in that policy did it condone training/griefing as a part of that policy. The spirit of the policy was to deter guilds that were under geared or under manned from entering VP and being unable to retrieve their corpses.

By adhering to the NO CSR policy as it should be followed you'd achieve a more classic experience and you'd relieve some of pressure at the top end of the raid scene. TMO would be forced to dedicate more resources to defending VP since training the competition would no longer be a viable tactic, thus allowing more time for smaller guilds to mobilize and attempt targets. Just a thought.

[Skope]

Nah, not taking it personally. I just want specific examples so I can fix it if it's fixable. As I said above, rules and player interactions are quite more difficult to fix than something actually having to do with Everquest...

Didn't ignore anything that I'm aware of. I've responded to the raid scene proposals and various other things. I have a vote in management decisions. Essentially, I want to recreate classic eq. When it goes beyond the actual work, it ... sucks. Managing people sucks. Managing people's expectations sucks worse.

It is literally impossible to please everyone, but we seriously do what we can. Zerg guilds, on both servers, I wish you would drop some numbers or create rules or rotations with other guilds. It's ridiculous that it reaches the point that management is blamed for what happens in game.

Nilbog, there has been more than one occasion where I've brought something up with you and/or Rogean only to have you guys say you'll discuss it and come back with nothing to show for it. I'm not talking about instances where there is a possibly perceived grey area but things that are black and white, right and wrong. A prime example for this was the early days of Bumamgar and how, even when we were promised that certain rules were enforced, they were explicitly ignored at the behest of Rogean's decision. He was a total douche on P99 and he was caught cheating on the two other emulated servers he played on, yet he was also a dev and benefited from some really poorly considered decisions. There was also the incident where 364accts got caught cheating (or "cheating"), which you admitted was done poorly and in hindsight you would have done things differently. If the anti-cheat system wasn't full-proof and as a result you couldn't have permabanned these folks then fine, but at least say something to that extent. All that we saw was 364 accounts that should have been banned for cheating shown the 'welcome back' mat. Had you guys been clear from the beginning you wouldn't have lost more legitimate players than actual cheaters. To that point: the punishments for cheating and general dickish behavior have always been extremely lax. You can't be everywhere and see everything that goes on, but at least come down harsh on what you do notice. This lackadaisical and half-caring sentiment and punishments has bred the exact issues we're all complaining about, in the raid scene in particular.

I understand that the players deserve a lot of the blame here, but let's also quit blaming and punishing the players that have nothing to do with any of the bullshit and at least admit that there have been some serious blunders on account of the staff as well. We've had Xzerion RMT, uthgaard go nuts, amelinda accept $$$, cyrius go power hungry, and database leaks, and some of Sirken's posts have all the wisdom and insight of a rabid 12-year-old.

I know you hate player interactions. I've heard this from many people and have seen you do your best to ignore it if at all possible, but I can also personally tell you that Rogean doesn't have a spotless record here. When I had an issue with uthgaard jumping to conclusions and seeing things only the way he wanted to see them, I came to you. You're reasonable and consistent. You'll sit down and think things through and consider the repercussions, even if it means admitting fault after the fact. You're the most sensible person on this server but you also despise having to deal with all of this bullshit. The problem here is that when you're not dealing with the bullshit, it only piles up to a point where you can't see what's over the hill of poopoo.

As to the issue of working it out amongst yourselves:
TMO has explicitly said they won't discuss any sort of raid changes that results in them losing mobs. Mind you, the only reason that they've benefited -- and DA/IB/VD/whoever else poopsocked -- is due to the biggest shitstain this server had to deal with that hasn't work a single day since you've implemented it: the variance. They're (and any guild that stoops to that level) going to bitch, moan and cry if the rules aren't heavily tipped in their favor. If the same people that pushed it through and defended it were caught cheating wasn't a big enough sign to get rid of it (and that was years ago!!), I reckon Rogean adding more if it and changing the way that every NPC in the game reacts in order to keep it is the final nail in the coffin. It's gotten so bad that you guys are changing classic mechanics of every NPC in the game to cater to these same people you claim are at the heart of the issue here.

It's hypocritical. If you and Rogean can't agree as to what should be done, and I'm assuming here you thought the NPC change and added variance was a horrible idea, then how can you expect the servers' players who number in the hundreds to agree to anything when you've got a single guild who benefits from the status quo unwilling to negotiate on any sort of terms? You can't even say with a straight face that patch notes are pushed through to benefit them and only them.

The two of you need to sit down and really think about just what the hell's going on. If you're going to keep the nonclassic mechanics and add to them, fine, but don't claim you're willing to listen to the players' interests and take them into account when they've been ignored for years. If the two of you agree that the raid scene is shit, which you seem to agree with, then why have the only changes been in the wrong direction?

It's the raid scene and rules, then? If there's something I can fix, I go out of my way to fix it. If it's generally complaining about raiding, then address it as such. I think the raid scene is trash as well. What's funny about that is.. if you played on a server with top 5 worldwide guilds, it's pretty damn classic and awful. Da`Kor was my experience, but the difference is they did the most they could with the fewest people they could. That.. is not the zerg mentality of present day.

Then let's stop favoring it with rules that don't make sense and patch notes that only piss everyone off.

I saw Daydrem on our guild website a couple of weeks ago and thought about typing up something to see if she'd come back but couldn't in good spirit think of a single good reason why I should lie to her.

[enr4ged]

This is fine. I *want* to make things more classic, but it's difficult to even read these threads when non-classicness is addressed so generally. Like, your example that blue diamonds shouldn't drop till velious.. isn't correct. Blue diamonds dropped in Kunark, but blue diamond jewelry shouldn't be craftable till Velious. This was corrected 2 months ago, retroactively, but a patch hasn't occurred.

It's the raid scene and rules, then? If there's something I can fix, I go out of my way to fix it. If it's generally complaining about raiding, then address it as such. I think the raid scene is trash as well. What's funny about that is.. if you played on a server with top 5 worldwide guilds, it's pretty damn classic and awful. Da`Kor was my experience, but the difference is they did the most they could with the fewest people they could. That.. is not the zerg mentality of present day.



Nah, not taking it personally. I just want specific examples so I can fix it if it's fixable. As I said above, rules and player interactions are quite more difficult to fix than something actually having to do with Everquest...



Didn't ignore anything that I'm aware of. I've responded to the raid scene proposals and various other things. I have a vote in management decisions. Essentially, I want to recreate classic eq. When it goes beyond the actual work, it ... sucks. Managing people sucks. Managing people's expectations sucks worse.

It is literally impossible to please everyone, but we seriously do what we can. Zerg guilds, on both servers, I wish you would drop some numbers or create rules or rotations with other guilds. It's ridiculous that it reaches the point that management is blamed for what happens in game.


I think what people are getting at is if you are willing to make the server non-classic (variance), yet you realize it's bad and it's not working and it basically stops anyone that doesn't play the game 24/7 from competing for the bosses, then WHY do you leave it in the game?

Ideally someone who feels the sever should be classic would change it back. Or on the other hand, if someone is trying to make the raid scene better then they would change variance to something that works which is fine in my eyes. I thought this server was about emulating classic. So you should either emulate classic or fix the raid scene in a non-classic way so people can enjoy a somewhat classic server not be frustrated that only one guild gets to experience it.

So what's the problem? Either you want to fix raiding or you want the server to be classic. In it's current state variance is not doing either.

[maverixdamighty]

I think what you meant to say is "you need to stop others from farming the best gear possible" that's the douchebag moves everyone is talking about. And camping out all old content just so you can deny others epics and then turn around and sell them for 500k to people. Hmm what ever do you do with all that platinum... I wonder.

you never raided in velious did you? It's showing.

edit: ignorant people like you complaining and lumping everyone together are entertaining. go to the forums and find any post of mine selling an epic lol.

[Splorf22]

It is literally impossible to please everyone, but we seriously do what we can. Zerg guilds, on both servers, I wish you would drop some numbers or create rules or rotations with other guilds. It's ridiculous that it reaches the point that management is blamed for what happens in game.

I believe you. But you have to understand that people adapt to the rules you have in place. Currently to get raid mobs you have to have a guild that can track raid mobs and batphone 20+ at any hour of the day. Its simply not possible to have a raiding guild with <100 players on this server.

Suppose the only way to spawn bosses was with tokens, and each guild gets a fixed number. TMO dies the next day; they would break into 3-4 smaller guilds to get more tokens.

My point is only that if you want to change the behavior, you have to change the incentives. And that is why unlike a lot of the people in this thread I haven't been bitching at TMO; I hate the system not the players.

[maverixdamighty]

I believe you. But you have to understand that people adapt to the rules you have in place. Currently to get raid mobs you have to have a guild that can track raid mobs and batphone 20+ at any hour of the day. Its simply not possible to have a raiding guild with <100 players on this server.

Suppose the only way to spawn bosses was with tokens, and each guild gets a fixed number. TMO dies the next day; they would break into 3-4 smaller guilds to get more tokens.

My point is only that if you want to change the behavior, you have to change the incentives. And that is why unlike a lot of the people in this thread I haven't been bitching at TMO; I hate the system not the players.

ppl complaining server isn't classic then suggesting completely non classic ideas? I agree variance is dumb, but tokens? Come on. let's just make the raid bosses instanced ffs.

also not entirely true, guilds could get mobs during their peak times if they got lucky and had a pop during those hours, but not many are bothering to try.

[Skope]

also not entirely true, guilds could get mobs during their peak times if they got lucky and had a pop during those hours, but not many are bothering to try.

When you see promises made and broken and patch notes pushed that benefit only the poopsocking guilds, you quickly learn that it wasn't ever meant for you.

[Atmas]

I hope everyone had seatbelts on from all the brakes that were slammed in here.

[maverixdamighty]

When you see promises made and broken and patch notes pushed that benefit only the poopsocking guilds, you quickly learn that it wasn't ever meant for you.

i don't make a million dollars a year because i wasn't born into the right family. i like making excuses.

again how is the added variance helping the poopsocking guilds? also you still throwing around the term poopsock shows how out of touch you are with the current box. if anything the added variance is making me and i know many in my guild want to track even less and both guilds are still getting the mobs but just had to increase their effort/time invested to do so.

[Splorf22]

ppl complaining server isn't classic then suggesting completely non classic ideas? I agree variance is dumb, but tokens? Come on. let's just make the raid bosses instanced ffs.

also not entirely true, guilds could get mobs during their peak times if they got lucky and had a pop during those hours, but not many are bothering to try.

As I stated before Mav what I would like to see first is weekly simultaneous repops. If you combine that with a 1 hour server-wide broadcast (when Verant patched, it took a while) and removal of VP trains (current VP trains rely on a silly misreading of 'no csr', that just meant they wouldn't summon your corpse if you died) it would be both a huge step towards classic and a chance for the smaller guilds while still maintaining the 'competition' that Rogean and so many in the uberguilds seem to like. After a few months we could then reevaluate.

[maverixdamighty]

As I stated before Mav what I would like to see first is weekly simultaneous repops. If you combine that with a 1 hour server-wide broadcast (when Verant patched, it took a while) and removal of VP trains (current VP trains rely on a silly misreading of 'no csr', that just meant they wouldn't summon your corpse if you died) it would be both a huge step towards classic and a chance for the smaller guilds while still maintaining the 'competition' that Rogean and so many in the uberguilds seem to like. After a few months we could then reevaluate.

these happened and it was still the same two guilds getting all the quality mobs minus a few. i agree the minus a few is still a benefit to the server, but it's not going to net you trakanons, vp dragons etc. vp will get a lot more interesting soon anyways if they remove the invis pulling i'd bet.

[Atmas]

I'm really surprised by the tone players take with staff of a free game. Just because they don't have a knee jerk reaction to every want that players produce.

Also I know it will make people flip out but it I have to say it is nauseating to see people complain about mechanics favoring a guild. Some guilds may react to mechanics better than others but no guild inherently benefits from these changes. Infact I really don't see how added variance does anything but add further hinderance to players who are actively sitting at spawn points. The reason being that most guilds aren't doing that. It would be one thing to complain that you lost an equalizer but since you weren't taking advantage of knowing when a spawn was closing out how did it really impact you?

Most people would just like to argue for a change in server rules instead of using good advice when it was given. As Nilbog mentioned it really doesn't take a ton of people to kill most of the mobs. There really could be a lot of competitve guilds on this server, but maybe its just easier to try to get the rules altered.

[enr4ged]

ppl complaining server isn't classic then suggesting completely non classic ideas? I agree variance is dumb, but tokens? Come on. let's just make the raid bosses instanced ffs.

also not entirely true, guilds could get mobs during their peak times if they got lucky and had a pop during those hours, but not many are bothering to try.

Yeah not bothering to try because getting a guild in one spot is a lot easier to do when said guilds have 2-3 alts camped in different places just waiting for the mobs to spawn.

My guild spent 2-3 nights just waiting for Severilous to spawn, what do we get to show for it? Thanks to variance and two extended windows we get a big fuck you. If the server was classic, we would of had a chance, but because we don't have people with multiple alt characters that they can keep camped at three different places we don't even stand a chance, so whats the point of trying.

You can't even do a naggy pug raid if you happen to see him spawn, because when you try and organize some people TMO finds out, logs in their alts and kills him in 10 minutes.

Variance and account trading is destroying the server.

[Lyra]

get the rules altered.

The rules are altered.

There are a lot of issues at play on this server.

One thing at a time.

Getting rid of the variance is the step right now.

[Splorf22]

these happened and it was still the same two guilds getting all the quality mobs minus a few. i agree the minus a few is still a benefit to the server, but it's not going to net you trakanons, vp dragons etc. vp will get a lot more interesting soon anyways if they remove the invis pulling i'd bet.

Read my post mav: evaluate after three months. Obviously if the server was reset tonight TMO would get 80% and FE would get a few. However, suppose this became policy:


Casual guilds make a batphone for said repops. Currently the A-Team has no batphone; we have 7 on or whatnot. With a batphone we'd have 15.
Casual guilds coordinate and communicate which targets they want. Last repop we spent running around and finding hundreds of /role players in each zone.
Casual guilds get some practice with the encounters and stock up with resist gear
Hardcore guilds start camping out buffed chars at each encounter and just logging on from one to the other


What's the net of those changes? I don't know. Have to try it to find out. But you are making a huge mistake to judge the effect of constant repops by the 1-2 we got a few months ago.

[Atmas]

It's almost as if you haven't read anything about the subject or understood the underlying issues if you have. Good impression!!!

I read the posts, and I am very familar with the subject on both sides. I can even give anecdotes about being in guilds that happened to be in prime spots when raid mobs spawned and decieded to just camp until TR/TMO were done. Nothing wagered nothing gained.

[quido]

I don't think the staff made VP an "anything goes" zone because they misread or misinterpreted the classic ruling. I think they're just taking it a step further and letting us sort out our own problems rather than having to look at 5000 screenshots and 10 hours of fraps every single time PD or whatever pops. It's not like it was an accident or they couldn't just change it to whatever suits them/us.

[Splorf22]

Atmas, it is nauseating (props for using that word correctly! Someone watches the Big Bang Theory) to me to see players politicing for changes that favor them as opposed to classic eq. Variance allows players willing to track/batphone to completely exclude the 90% of the server and its NOT CLASSIC.

In other words you are the one bitching, not us.

[quido]

Why don't you just advocate guilds poopsocking Phara Dar for 10 days at a time?

[Skope]

Why don't you just advocate guilds poopsocking Phara Dar for 10 days at a time?

It's what happens everywhere else, what's the problem?

[quido]

Oh, in your world they'd only poopsock him for 7 days at a time, starting immediately after he dies. My bad.

[quido]

Zephany you should push for them releasing 10 parallel servers for people to choose from, in an effort to better simulate classic.

[Skope]

Fact: guilds got together and hammered out raid rules that worked for everyone, Fishbait declined(precursor to DA and subsequently TMO)

Do you really expect these cheating lowlifes to do anything that would mean a legit competitive atmosphere?

Harrison, the variance was also hammered out and agreed upon. The players have come together and agreed upon some dumb shit, but yes, there have also been talks that were stalled and abandoned because of a single unwilling party.

I recall it lasting a week before it went to poopsock mode and since then we've had three years what everyone said wouldn't ever happen.

[Skope]

FTE shouts weren't classic, but the only thing it would affect is allow players to know who a mob belongs to, rather than the staff having to read petitions, sort through logs, and rule accordingly. It doesn't affect gameplay or outcomes at all.

You don't need FTE shout either if you're willing to delete loot, like what happened in classic. In some cases, GMs were sick of the players' shit and when repeatedly being called to settle raid disputes they'd opted to delete the loot.

If guilds want to sit on a spawn and wait for a mob to pop, then let them. If they want to train each other and various petitions are called because they can't work it out amongst themselves then perhaps their toys should be taken away.

There's no need to add non-classic mechanics when there was such huge variety with the raiding scene during live. Some servers had rotations while others had FTE. Some servers the GMs would babysit while in others servers they'd tell the players to go fuck themselves. Only when you've exhausted the classic approach should you look elsewhere. The reality here is that we haven't even tried it.

[maverixdamighty]

Read my post mav: evaluate after three months. Obviously if the server was reset tonight TMO would get 80% and FE would get a few. However, suppose this became policy:


Casual guilds make a batphone for said repops. Currently the A-Team has no batphone; we have 7 on or whatnot. With a batphone we'd have 15.
Casual guilds coordinate and communicate which targets they want. Last repop we spent running around and finding hundreds of /role players in each zone.
Casual guilds get some practice with the encounters and stock up with resist gear
Hardcore guilds start camping out buffed chars at each encounter and just logging on from one to the other


What's the net of those changes? I don't know. Have to try it to find out. But you are making a huge mistake to judge the effect of constant repops by the 1-2 we got a few months ago.

if you say so. you are also making a ton of assumptions. things could change, and things couldn't. personally, with announced server repops i could see casual guilds getting some talendors, sevs, nobles(air cycle), faydedar, etc which is an improvement, but i don't see them getting vs/trak/vp/gore etc unless it's just a pure fte snipe.

[quido]

Honestly I think a wider variance might actually be helpful. I remember when the variance was initially instituted it was generally thought that people wouldn't track all those targets through 4-day windows and that it would be more akin to classic. The problem, in one light, is that there isn't enough variance. Instead of just spreading out the spawn times each week, make it more something like "Faydedar is going to spawn 50 times this year, but there's a real chance he won't spawn at all for a month and similarly there's a chance he could spawn each of three days in a row." If you're really looking to emulate live in the "ok it's 6pm, let's go see what's up" sense, you need to really defeat the constant tracking presence. Large guilds have learned how to manage the issue all too well, and really such a necessity is largely responsible for the size of these large guilds. I could code such a system easily in a matter of minutes without placing any burden on the servers.

I think removing variance altogether in light of the fact that we have so many hardcore and semi-hardcore people on a single box (when live had many servers) is ludicrous. It would prevent people from ever actually fighting the targets and would result in it being like a Trak spawnsock for every single target, in Kunark at least.

[Skope]

Honestly I think a wider variance might actually be helpful. I remember when the variance was initially instituted it was generally thought that people wouldn't track all those targets through 4-day windows and that it would be more akin to classic. The problem, in one light, is that there isn't enough variance. Instead of just spreading out the spawn times each week, make it more something like "Faydedar is going to spawn 50 times this year, but there's a real chance he won't spawn at all for a month and similarly there's a chance he could spawn each of three days in a row." If you're really looking to emulate live in the "ok it's 6pm, let's go see what's up" sense, you need to really defeat the constant tracking presence. Large guilds have learned how to manage the issue all too well, and really such a necessity is largely responsible for the size of these large guilds. I could code such a system easily in a matter of minutes without placing any burden on the servers.

While still favoring cheaters and zerg guilds with more bodies to absorb the added time -- which, btw, isn't remotely classic.

[maverixdamighty]

Honestly I think a wider variance might actually be helpful. I remember when the variance was initially instituted it was generally thought that people wouldn't track all those targets through 4-day windows and that it would be more akin to classic. The problem, in one light, is that there isn't enough variance. Instead of just spreading out the spawn times each week, make it more something like "Faydedar is going to spawn 50 times this year, but there's a real chance he won't spawn at all for a month and similarly there's a chance he could spawn each of three days in a row." If you're really looking to emulate live in the "ok it's 6pm, let's go see what's up" sense, you need to really defeat the constant tracking presence. Large guilds have learned how to manage the issue all too well, and really such a necessity is largely responsible for the size of these large guilds. I could code such a system easily in a matter of minutes without placing any burden on the servers.

i think a bi-weekly server reset (or 10 days whatever) is the closest thing this server is going to get to allow all players to attempt some raid targets that they are complaining about not getting now without it becoming an all out fte battle, which is about the lamest thing possible.

[Faerie Blossom]

I think if things were really as bad as they're made out to be here on the forums, a couple guilds would have moved to Red and done well for themselves.

[quido]

The only reason the tracking forces in each guild don't crumble is because they get time off when windows close, especially on full repops. If EVERYTHING had to be tracked ALL the time, I think you would see more casual spot checking from people on a lot of the less important stuff.

[maverixdamighty]

While still favoring cheaters and zerg guilds with more bodies to absorb the added time -- which, btw, isn't remotely classic.

divinity probably has as many active players or close as FE does atm. such ignorant sweeping generalizations. top guilds on classic were the guilds with the best mobilization,strategy, coordination, etc. I'd say that those are the top 2 guilds on this server atm easily.

[Skope]

i think a bi-weekly server reset (or 10 days whatever) is the closest thing this server is going to get to allow all players to attempt some raid targets that they are complaining about not getting now without it becoming an all out fte battle, which is about the lamest thing possible.

That only solves part of the problem.

Honestly, there has only been twice in this server's history that the players have taken it upon themselves to force changes. The first time was the Trans/IB rotation and the second one was when Divinity wanted in and the rotation fell apart. That was 09' early '10. Ever since then there's been nothing done that was brought about by the players themselves to force changes of the raid rules.

The GMs haven't ever taken a hard-line approach to quashing raid disputes. In fact, petitions get answered and either there are either repercussions (often very light ones that don't affect the guild whatsoever), or nothing is done about it due to a lack of evidence. This approach hasn't forced the players to work it out, but rather just /petition all sorts of dumb shit that goes on when trakonan is up. On live guilds were disbanded for ninjalooting. Here the worst you might expect is a two-weeks long vacation, and probably for the single member ninjalooting.

Uthgaard was a total wacked out penisface, but at least the dude had some good ideas. When he kept getting called to raid disputes and other incessant bullshit, he made sure the players knew he didn't want to be there. I think we need more of that.

divinity probably has as many active players or close as FE does atm.

No. We kill bees and eye of veeshan with sub-30. The only time divinity had members anywhere close to the top two was when we killed ~75% targets over the course of a month and 50% over two months back in 2010. The highest number we ever hit was 50-something. The average raid # is ~30 on prescheduled sky days.

It's not even close. And quit deviating from the topic

The only reason the tracking forces in each guild don't crumble is because they get time off when windows close, especially on full repops. If EVERYTHING had to be tracked ALL the time, I think you would see more casual spot checking from people on a lot of the less important stuff.

When you've got as many members and willing trackers as you do, it doesn't jive. It still favors the zerg and it's still not classic.

[Splorf22]

if you say so. you are also making a ton of assumptions. things could change, and things couldn't. personally, with announced server repops i could see casual guilds getting some talendors, sevs, nobles(air cycle), faydedar, etc which is an improvement, but i don't see them getting vs/trak/vp/gore etc unless it's just a pure fte snipe.

Mav I don't think you read my posts. I am saying that I don't know exactly what will happen, just making a few educated guesses.

[maverixdamighty]

That only solves part of the problem.

Honestly, there has only been twice in this server's history that the players have taken it upon themselves to force changes. The first time was the Trans/IB rotation and the second one was when Divinity wanted in and the rotation fell apart. That was 09' early '10. Ever since then there's been nothing done that was brought about by the players themselves to force changes of the raid rules.

The GMs haven't ever taken a hard-line approach to quashing raid disputes. In fact, petitions get answered and either there are either repercussions (often very light ones that don't affect the guild whatsoever), or nothing is done about it due to a lack of evidence. This approach hasn't forced the players to work it out, but rather just /petition all sorts of dumb shit that goes on when trakonan is up. On live guilds were disbanded for ninjalooting. Here the worst you might expect is a two-weeks long vacation, and probably for the single member ninjalooting.

Uthgaard was a total wacked out penisface, but at least the dude had some good ideas. When he kept getting called to raid disputes and other incessant bullshit, he made sure the players knew he didn't want to be there. I think we need more of that.



No. We kill bees and eye of veeshan with sub-30.

again you are making big sweeping generalizations. i never saw on live what you did. you listing one example does not make it the standard. we haven't had more than 33 on a raid in over a month. also, i've been at divinity sky raids and seen closer to 35 plenty of times.

[maverixdamighty]

Mav I don't think you read my posts. I am saying that I don't know exactly what will happen, just making a few educated guesses.

No, I read this part, "But you are making a huge mistake to judge the effect of constant repops by the 1-2 we got a few months ago."

i think it's a safer bet to look at what has actually happened as opposed to what would happen in your Utopian server resets. i admitted the casual guilds would get some lesser mobs, but they aren't going to get any top priority mobs unless it's a FTE snipe like i said. tmo and fe to a lesser extent now are not going to lose mobilization contests against other guilds on this server.

[quido]

When you've got as many members and willing trackers as you do, it doesn't jive. It still favors the zerg and it's still not classic.

I don't dispute that it still favors the zerg, but I think the relative degree to which it does is significantly less. The zerg will always be favored in a number of rights - you can't change that without completely rewriting the game and making some sort of weird custom server.

It's generally a handful of hardcore people that hold down the tracking - there is rarely enough trackers in either of our guilds as it is now - and if they were told that their burden is approximately tripled (as it would be under my proposal) I think you'd see guilds focusing a lot more on the shit they really want and letting the smaller stuff go without a fight. There's no set of rules short of a rotation that are gonna stop guilds like TMO/FE/IB/Whoever from doing every damn thing they can from get Trakanon/VS.

[Splorf22]

i think it's a safer bet to look at what has actually happened as opposed to what would happen in your Utopian server resets. i admitted the casual guilds would get some lesser mobs, but they aren't going to get any top priority mobs unless it's a FTE snipe like i said. tmo and fe to a lesser extent now are not going to lose mobilization contests against other guilds on this server.

Mav, let me ask you a simple question. Pretend for a moment that you are the guild leader of Divinity. Rogean announces there will be repops every week, with a server wide broadcast 1 hour before it happens. What do you do? And how does it differ from what you do now?

[Skope]

I don't dispute that it still favors the zerg, but I think the relative degree to which it does is significantly less. The zerg will always be favored in a number of rights - you can't change that without completely rewriting the game and making some sort of weird custom server.

Jeremy, it's not always going to favor the zerg. When guilds that were too big to put their pants on wound up collapsing because of pressure. If two guilds were evenly matched and one had larger numbers but both were rushing to breach VP, the trakonan bottleneck caused serious issues within the guild. People who spent DKP on teeth were/weren't awarded with loot that they had no DKP for. Those at the back of the line got pissed and /guildremoved. None of this is possible here because, provided you've got more warm bodies than the other guy, you're pretty much guaranteed loot. If that's not enough, Rogean is busy pushing through rules that specifically cater to the poopsockers too.

It's completely backasswards.

And I'm not exactly a fucking noobie here. I don't recall guilds showing up to targets with 70+ the ones dominating all of the live servers. This isn't an EQ problem but rather a P99 specific one.

Want proof? Read nilbog's post in this very thread.

[kotton05]

again you are making big sweeping generalizations. i never saw on live what you did. you listing one example does not make it the standard. we haven't had more than 33 on a raid in over a month. also, i've been at divinity sky raids and seen closer to 35 plenty of times.

i agree with mav, i think div and maybe bda/fc pull more than us.

also concerning the variance its meant to break your will and not want to sit there, thats a paraphrase of what sirken told me. I like not having to poopsock anymore and fte is alil more clear with less GM intervention (grats FC on inny btw) the real issue comes down to how far are you willing to go for a pixel? FE doesnt enforce tracking, i think TMO makes apps track (correct me if im wrong). With the new variance another guild be it taken/div/fc/bda have alot better chance at snagging fay/sev while trak/vs are in window (or even extended window). But once again that wont come without fast mobilization and a spotter/puller there.

Thing is you can't plan to raid, unless its sky/fear/hate. Otherwise its random. I know I kinda pop around on toons checking targets during down hours and I've gotten a couple lucky spawns. Also you can group in VS pit and xp while waiting on venril for a potential engage, thats a good start for a guild that wants a shot imo.

I mean if this was classic with no variance wouldn't it be a bigger issue than it already is? I dunno if i agree with jeremy on an even longer variance tho. Seems to hurt any up and coming guild gearing themselves.

[quido]

I think some people just want exactly the same experience they had on live.

This is stupid.

This isn't an EQ problem but rather a P99 specific one.

So tell them to open 10 more servers so people can pick the sort of server they want to play on. You're not going to emulate the experience of a dozen different servers on a single box.

[maverixdamighty]

Mav, let me ask you a simple question. Pretend for a moment that you are the guild leader of Divinity. Rogean announces there will be repops every week, with a server wide broadcast 1 hour before it happens. What do you do? And how does it differ from what you do now?

i was already in divinity and had this situation happen. we got some of the smaller targets occasionally. but in the future, if i was the GL of divinity and went with the supposed conduct all the casual guilds claim i would work w/ the other casual guilds to try to get legitimate shots at some of the top mobs and if that didn't work out i would take the guild to the highest priority mob that we had a legit shot at. how that would differ from now? I'd be on the board reading comments about how unfair this is and how it promotes cheating/poopsocking.

honestly even with that 1hr announcement people are going to bitch. you are going to have people saying it's not in our prime time, it doesn't help euros, we are working, etc.

edit: AKA i would do what sirken suggested and got slammed for. classic eq mobs went to the guilds that put in the time and worked to get them. people are wanting this server to be non-classic and let everyone get a shot at every mob.

[quido]

I dunno if i agree with jeremy on an even longer variance tho. Seems to hurt any up and coming guild gearing themselves.

Imagine if between our guilds we tried to always have a character a trak ledge, in VS pit, and someone on the loose for VP/whatever; it would be retarded. There's absolutely no way we as a whole could maintain this level of poopsockedness if stuff could pop at any moment and not just in a window that averages 2/7 of a given week. A four-day window means an average of 2 days in window per spawn (before this last accidental extension patch) versus a given FIVE days with no chance of that target spawning again. If there was a chance it could spawn again 20 minutes later, or not spawn again for a month, I think we'd see a different style of play from the top guilds.

[Skope]

i agree with mav, i think div and maybe bda/fc pull more than us.

Think is different than know. Mav doesn't know shit and assumes and you're inclined to agree with him. We're only able to pull 30+ on predetermined sky nights. We killed sev with 26-27. Back in 2010 we killed inny with 19 and draco with 12. I don't know what the hell mav's been telling you, but when he calls divinity a zerg guild it's an attempt at getting revenge at me for calling him an idiot...

...by proving himself to be an idiot.

also concerning the variance its meant to break your will and not want to sit there, thats a paraphrase of what sirken told me.

That hasn't worked but a single week in over three years. Sirken is talking utter nonsense.

Thing is you can't plan to raid, unless its sky/fear/hate. Otherwise its random. I know I kinda pop around on toons checking targets during down hours and I've gotten a couple lucky spawns.

We're not talking about predetermined raids at X hours of Y days. While I understand that it plays a part, it's an incredibly small part. We're talking about the variance as a mechanic and how it affects not just the raid scene, but the server as a whole.

After seeing the people who pushed variance get knicked for SEQ/MQ, a single week of the mechanic not being abused in over three years, GMs consciously aware of the fact that they're favoring zerg forces, and now patch notes that show they don't care about what the players' have to say, I reckon it hasn't done any good but that one week where it worked as intended.

Also you can group in VS pit and xp while waiting on venril for a potential engage, thats a good start for a guild that wants a shot imo.

Only have to do it for how many days?

I'm not going to track endlessly and nor should anyone else have to. It's not classic. Even when I tracked I got kicked in the nuts, so why the hell should now be any different? I read the patch notes, but this time Rogean swung and missed. If people want to defend it the massive variance (not you, but more Jeremy), then they need to realize that the burden of proof is on them.

If it hasn't even worked in over three years then it's safe to assume you're not going to come up with a compelling argument as to why it should stick around.

[kotton05]

Imagine if between our guilds we tried to always have a character a trak ledge, in VS pit, and someone on the loose for VP/whatever; it would be retarded. There's absolutely no way we as a whole could maintain this level of poopsockedness if stuff could pop at any moment and not just in a window that averages 2/7 of a given week. A four-day window means an average of 2 days in window per spawn (before this last accidental extension patch) versus a given FIVE days with no chance of that target spawning again. If there was a chance it could spawn again 20 minutes later, or not spawn again for a month, I think we'd see a different style of play from the top guilds.

Yea at this rate we'd see a very high rate of burn out, also not everyone likes parking out their main for upwards of a month for a pop you might not even see. Therefor dissipating this raid scene we're used to. Would def be a shock and see who wants it more I guess(i think thats what GM's were going for with extended windows actually)....

but...

I'd like to see maybe a reverse variance, like a mob can spawn after being killed, sort of like a ragefire thing where upon death it can pop again or go full window. That would catch top guilds off guard occasionally and keep the middle tier guilds aware/give them an attempt perhaps.

[maverixdamighty]

Think is different than know. Mav doesn't know shit and assumes and you're inclined to agree with him. We're only able to pull 30+ on predetermined sky nights. We killed sev with 26-27. Back in 2010 we killed inny with 19 and draco with 12. I don't know what the hell mav's been telling you, but when he calls divinity a zerg guild it's an attempt at getting revenge at me for calling him an idiot...

...by proving himself to be an idiot.



That hasn't worked but a single week in over three years. Sirken is talking utter nonsense.



We're not talking about predetermined raids at X hours of Y days. While I understand that it plays a part, it's an incredibly small part. We're talking about the variance as a mechanic and how it affects not just the raid scene, but the server as a whole.

After seeing the people who pushed variance get knicked for SEQ/MQ, a single week of the mechanic not being abused in over three years, GMs consciously aware of the fact that they're favoring zerg forces, and now patch notes that show they don't care about what the players' have to say, I reckon it hasn't done any good but that one week where it worked as intended.



Only have to do it for how many days?

I'm not going to track endlessly and nor should anyone else have to. It's not classic. Even when I tracked I got kicked in the nuts, so why the hell should now be any different? I read the patch notes, but this time Rogean swung and missed. If people want to defend it the massive variance (not you, but more Jeremy), then they need to realize that the burden of proof is on them.

If it hasn't even worked in over three years then it's safe to assume you're not going to come up with a compelling argument as to why it should stick around.

skope you are an idiot. i never said you weren't pulling those 30+ numbers anywhere other than your predetermined sky raids, because you generally don't do anything else than an impromptu planar raid the rest of the week.

i've been in divinity and raiding actively and attempting to race to those mobs a lot more recently than you. all you do is post on the forums and complain and try to relive divinity's glory years. it's sad.

[Skope]

Imagine if between our guilds we tried to always have a character a trak ledge, in VS pit, and someone on the loose for VP/whatever; it would be retarded. There's absolutely no way we as a whole could maintain this level of poopsockedness if stuff could pop at any moment and not just in a window that averages 2/7 of a given week. A four-day window means an average of 2 days in window per spawn (before this last accidental extension patch) versus a given FIVE days with no chance of that target spawning again. If there was a chance it could spawn again 20 minutes later, or not spawn again for a month, I think we'd see a different style of play from the top guilds.

Let me just load up my SEQ to handle that burden...

said about a couple hundred "trackers." Good thing we dealt with them too, right Jeremy?

Adding more variance on top of variance that doesn't work is still favoring zerg forces (and cheaters). As the dude above me mentioned, it also means an even higher burnout rate and you'd only end up with what we're seeing now, but even faster: more people wearing the same guild tag and more people quitting.

[quido]

Oh there you go, idiot - that's a great idea. Let's SEQ track mobs now.

Maybe it would achieve what it is you want - people poopsocking less targets. I think I'm in a better position than you to predict whether or not this will happen. It seems to me you just want to complain about the system in place while suggesting no better solution yourself.

[maverixdamighty]

Oh there you go, idiot - that's a great idea.

let's make a server for skope where he can log in and all mobs are up all day long. it's classic.

edit: For me this server in terms of mobs killed by the top guild is pretty damn close to classic. in kunark when it came out only one other guild even killed a handful of mobs my guild wanted. if anything this server has more competition than my server did on live. the variance is completely retarded, but we play with the hand we are dealt.

[kotton05]

Oh there you go, idiot - that's a great idea. Let's SEQ track mobs now.

Maybe it would achieve what it is you want - people poopsocking less targets. I think I'm in a better position than you to predict whether or not this will happen. It seems to me you just want to complain about the system in place while suggesting no better solution yourself.

not everyone cheats, its a rarity and if they do they get banned simple enough. I offered my thoughts on how the variance is effecting the raid scene skope and you discredited it saying you got kicked in the nuts. ive put time in too and lost the mob its gonna happen... Now just throwing out SEQ/MQ accusations in a clear attempt to smear any positive talk about whats goin on isn't helping me want to stay constructive....

I'm still a fan of a pre-variance from the time the mob dies its in window again or within 24 hours. The longer variance jeremy talks about might be the only way to make it fair but at what cost?

[kotton05]

Look from a GM point of view. what can be done?

FTE shouts... Harsher penalty for raid interference (train/kiting)... Guild punishments over single player punishments... EVEN LONGER variance or a pre-variance. bout all I can come up with at the moment.

[Skope]

Oh there you go, idiot - that's a great idea. Let's SEQ track mobs now.

Maybe it would achieve what it is you want - people poopsocking less targets. I think I'm in a better position than you to predict whether or not this will happen. It seems to me you just want to complain about the system in place while suggesting no better solution yourself.

My SEQ quip was a reminder as to what happened before, Jeremy. Many people tracked and many people "tracked." Cheating was heavily incentivized, and you know that full well.

Are you kidding? I'm not hopeful for any sort of change at all. I know it's fruitless. The patch notes prove it. If Nilbog disagrees with the way things are going but patch notes are pushed through that presumably go even against his own intentions, what fucking hope is there for any change whatsoever? What can I possibly say to flip around the way things are going when the guy who runs the damn server is admitting that things have fallen apart? what sort of magical super-argument can I conjure up that would see any sort of action? Have you been reading this thread at all? Bringing up alternatives to the current system is a mile away from where we are currently.

When the two that run the entire shindig can't agree with each other what can I possibly hope will get accomplished? The only sort of "change" we've seen is that Rogean is willing to change the behavior all of the NPCs in the game and add more variance. I'm not sure what you call that, but I call it fucking stupid.

[Thulack]

[QUOTE=quido;967518]I think some people just want exactly the same experience they had on live.

This is stupid.

QUOTE]

Is this not the WHOLE point of this server? If you didnt want the exact same experience you could play on other EMU servers or progression servers on Live.

[Lyra]

they get banned simple enough.

Someone in game said to me the other day "I'll get the account back in 6 months, if not sooner. There is no such thing as perma-ban on this server"

[kotton05]

Someone in game said to me the other day "I'll get the account back in 6 months, if not sooner. There is no such thing as perma-ban on this server"

true i should of said a hefty "suspension" my b

[quido]

Skope that doesn't even merit a real response. I'll thank you to stay out of discussion further. Your input is useless.

[Skope]

Someone in game said to me the other day "I'll get the account back in 6 months, if not sooner. There is no such thing as perma-ban on this server"

true i should of said a hefty "suspension" my b

That was my point. Perhaps I wasn't clear.

And, yes, you get kicked in the nuts whenever that happens, too.

Skope that doesn't even merit a real response. I'll thank you to stay out of discussion further. Your input is useless.

I'm sure nilbog feels the same way.

[maverixdamighty]

Skope that doesn't even merit a real response. I'll thank you to stay out of discussion further. Your input is useless.

jeremy here is an idea. let's keep our guilds tracking mobs then when we spot it we send skope a PM and if an hour passes after our guilds can FTE for the mobs? Too much catering to guilds that put in effort to get mobs we need to make rules that give casual guilds the top mobs in game since it's classic.

[kotton05]

Skope i'm failing to see your point in your comments, while it seems you want to raid some dragons. It seems youre more upset with how things are (cheating accusations need not be in server chat imo) rather than finding solutions that can fix things on this issue.

What do you suggest?

[Skope]

Skope i'm failing to see your point in your comments, while it seems you want to raid some dragons. It seems youre more upset with how things are (cheating accusations need not be in server chat imo) rather than finding solutions that can fix things on this issue.

It's not a cheating accusation, it's just me pointing out that people come back after being "banned" for cheating. A point that you and anyone who's been here longer than several months can personally attest to.

What do you suggest?

Nothing. Why bother? Things have already been suggested numerous times and nothing's happened but the exact opposite of what was told would happen.

I'm not offering an alternative set of raid rules when it's clear that they're not listening. No, instead I'm admitting defeat.

[quido]

I think referencing a couple of incidents at a time when there was no cheating detection here as a means of discrediting my promising proposal is absurd.

If you really don't think it would give the smaller/casualer guilds a better shot at stuff, you're clueless.

[Skope]

I think referencing a couple of incidents at a time when there was no cheating detection here as a means of discrediting my promising proposal is absurd.

I think I wasn't clear when I typed that out. I agree that it is a bit absurd, but then the same exact claim was made before, Jeremy, and we both know how that turned out.

Fool me once...

[quido]

but then the same exact claim was made before

I still don't follow what you're talking about.

[maverixdamighty]

I think referencing a couple of incidents at a time when there was no cheating detection here as a means of discrediting my promising proposal is absurd.

accusing people of cheating is an easy fall back excuse. FE got a sev once that divinity had chars camped ready for and because we had a tracker there, pulled it immediately and logged characters parked there + evac'd from vs (since this was when poopsocking was happening) I was accused of cheating by someone I considered a friend. Yes some people have been caught cheating on this server and a lot of them have been in the top guilds, but IMO that is the minority of the mob kills that happens.

[Skope]

I still don't follow what you're talking about.

People were claiming that SEQ was rampant among trackers. It got to a point where people were "tracking" raid mobs in zones with paladins and clerics. This was shown to be a valid concern when uthgaard faked a mob spawn and had DA alert to a fake raid mob. Koota apologized and fessed up and that incident -- and Rogean/Nilbog were convinced that it was a serious problem -- that we got the anti-cheat.

Hundreds of accounts later, here we are.

Think about that. Live has never had an anti-cheat system yet here we are banning them by the hundreds. It shows that they do care about catching the cheaters, but it also proves that P99 has a serious cheater problem.

[quido]

I still don't see your point. This was an altogether isolated incident and one which is even more unlikely these days given the advent of 3rd party program detection and a more solid and consistent GM presence. Koota was just a scumbag in this right - it's not like the variance brought it out in him. I'd bet the farm he used SEQ for a lot of other stuff too.

[Lyra]

I think referencing a couple of incidents at a time when there was no cheating detection here as a means of discrediting my promising proposal is absurd.

If you really don't think it would give the smaller/casualer guilds a better shot at stuff, you're clueless.

With the ability to create unlimited accounts, in addition to no perma ban, is there really a deterrent not to use the cheat software on a junk account?

This a real question. I've never used the programs.

[quido]

Depends on the 'skope' of the punishment. Bahahaha

I agree though - it shouldn't be such a given that you will get your stuff back. I think this hurts the population more than it helps.

[maverixdamighty]

With the ability to create unlimited accounts, in addition to no perma ban, is there really a deterrent not to use the cheat software on a junk account?

This a real question. I've never used the programs.

on a junk account i'd guess no other than the time invested in even getting the character up to the point to track. i think there should be more stringent bans for hacks but it's hard to do that fairly and consistently i guess from the GM perspective. i also think when people get suspended for training etc it shouldn't be that single char it should be all their chars, but again don't know they have the ability to do that. you'd have to block that IP to prevent people from just using someone else's character anyways.

[Skope]

I still don't see your point. This was an altogether isolated incident and one which is even more unlikely these days given the advent of 3rd party program detection and a more solid and consistent GM presence.

I'm saying that you're only adding additional incentive to cheat upon what existed before.

These "isolated incidents" ended up with hundreds of people getting caught, and a good chunk of them were tracker accounts. I'd love to hear an official number, but it's safe to say it's not small.

It's definitely more difficult to get away with it now, but it's also, by their admittance (Sirken has stated that it was wasn't perfect then and isn't perfect now), not bulletproof.

Rather than using a condom every time you sleep with a dirty hooker in fear of catching something nasty, perhaps it's a smarter idea to just stop sleeping with hookers.

[quido]

Now you're talking out of your ass. Most of the previous incentive was destroyed. The generalization that a lot were tracker accounts is only somewhat true, and I think the reason is that every single sketchball who plays here makes sure to try and have access to every account he or she possibly can. Why the hell would someone SEQ on a tracking character when they can just track? You're contradicting yourself.

[Skope]

Why the hell would someone SEQ on a tracking character when they can just track? You're contradicting yourself.

Because it's incredibly boring an unbelievably easy way to do it? Unless I'm mistaken, that's why people cheat, and have cheated in the first place.

Koota wasn't caught on a druid/bard/ranger, btw. Iirc he was sitting at the portal in fear FD'd. "Tracking" on a tracker gives them a bit more credibility.

Tixel was banned on the druid account. Ask Tixel why he SEQ/MQ'd, why the fuck are you asking me?

[kotton05]

MQ/SEQ seems to be the baseball equivalent of steroids...

Lyra has a good point the endless accounts created is a loophole that live didn't have to deal with.

[maverixdamighty]

Because it's incredibly boring an unbelievably easy way to do it? Unless I'm mistaken, that's why people cheat, and have cheated in the first place.

Koota wasn't caught on a druid/bard/ranger, btw. Iirc he was sitting at the portal in fear FD'd. "Tracking" on a tracker gives them a bit more credibility.

Tixel was banned on the druid account. Ask Tixel why he SEQ/MQ'd, why the fuck are you asking me?

can easily spot CT that way legitimately.

[quido]

Because it's incredibly boring an unbelievably easy way to do it? Unless I'm mistaken, that's why people cheat, and have cheated in the first place.

Koota wasn't caught on a druid/bard/ranger, btw. Iirc he was sitting at the portal in fear FD'd.

You're implying that a lot of the banned accounts were non-tracking classes that were tracking. Please just shut the fuck up. You don't even know what you're saying anymore and have to correct yourself after the fact when you say stuff that is too dumb.

[Alarti0001]

When you see promises made and broken and patch notes pushed that benefit only the poopsocking guilds, you quickly learn that it wasn't ever meant for you.

Or that your devs are volunteers and have busy lives.... but yes... lets make this about you. Hop on the Complain Train
Chugga Chugga Chugga Chugga QQQQQ QQQQQQ

[maverixdamighty]

Is in the guild currently ruining the server.

Talks like he gives a fuck about the devs as he spits in their faces by cheating.

i'm not in tmo, but like i said i don't see what they are doing now as being any different than what happened on classic. the difference is new content hasn't come out to shift their focus and open up more targets to other guilds.

top guilds on live weren't spending their time on trivial kunark mobs (with the exception of a few) unless all velious targets were dead and even then there was better risk/reward by just farming armor in tov/kael/skyshrine etc.

[Skope]

Or that your devs are volunteers and have busy lives.... but yes... lets make this about you. Hop on the Complain Train
Chugga Chugga Chugga Chugga QQQQQ QQQQQQ

I'm still on board with this. There will be content parts and source parts necessary.. and I'm ready to start with mine. I think adding the extra, random raid target chance per week would help a lot.. and fill the gaps of missing npcs over the past 2 years. I have heard people claim it will flood the server with loot, but I don't agree with them; it means raids which can kill the target will get loot. We've been making great progress with Velious which will also help alleviate the issue.

It's the raid scene and rules, then? If there's something I can fix, I go out of my way to fix it. If it's generally complaining about raiding, then address it as such. I think the raid scene is trash as well. What's funny about that is.. if you played on a server with top 5 worldwide guilds, it's pretty damn classic and awful. Da`Kor was my experience, but the difference is they did the most they could with the fewest people they could. That.. is not the zerg mentality of present day.

It is literally impossible to please everyone, but we seriously do what we can. Zerg guilds, on both servers, I wish you would drop some numbers or create rules or rotations with other guilds. It's ridiculous that it reaches the point that management is blamed for what happens in game.

You're making friends in high places, Alarti. I'm sure nilbog is QQing as well

I'm bowing out of this thread. It's turning into a flamefest that will inevitably end up in RnF, and bringing up the same arguments again and again and hearing that the people who run the server agree it's in a shit state and that rules are in need of changing are in agreement with you but, in typical P99 fashion, nothing ends up happening... well, that really gets tiring.

Enjoy the rest of this thread, god knows I haven't enjoyed a single bit.

[quido]

Split a period of one year into chunks of 30 minutes - there are 17520 of these chunks in a year. Say you want Talendor to spawn 52 times a year - then every 30 minutes, the server/zone does a check if Talendor isn't already up, and at the start of the chunk (or maybe at a random point within the chunk), the RNG is run and there is a 52/17520 or 0.2968% chance that Talendor will spawn.

I GUARANTEE YOU such a change would decrease the amount of tracking across the board from the zerg guilds and would afford the smaller guilds more ample an opportunity to have a shot at Talendor. Yes TMO will still get more targets than Divinity, but I 100% absolutely guarantee you that the smaller guilds will have a larger share of attempts under this system.

Add to this some simulated (or real) patches involving server repops, and suddenly, in my opinion, the raid scene is looking a lot more promising for the casual player.

If you think TMO or FE or IB or whoever can maintain that level of focus on tracking over an extended period of time, you are wrong. But honestly though I think Velious will alleviate most of the grievances. Kunark is just too fucking old.

[maverixdamighty]

Split a period of one year into chunks of 30 minutes - there are 17520 of these chunks in a year. Say you want Talendor to spawn 52 times a year - then every 30 minutes, the server/zone does a check if Talendor isn't already up, and at the start of the chunk (or maybe at a random point within the chunk), the RNG is run and there is a 52/17520 or 0.2968% chance that Talendor will spawn.

I GUARANTEE YOU such a change would decrease the amount of tracking across the board from the zerg guilds and would afford the smaller guilds more ample an opportunity to have a shot at Talendor. Yes TMO will still get more targets than Divinity, but I 100% absolutely guarantee you that the smaller guilds will have a larger share of attempts under this system.

Add to this some simulated (or real) patches involving server repops, and suddenly, in my opinion, the raid scene is looking a lot more promising for the casual player.

If you think TMO or FE or IB or whoever can maintain that level of focus on tracking over an extended period of time, you are wrong. But honestly though I think Velious will alleviate most of the grievances. Kunark is just too fucking old.

aside from more server repops + velious coming out that is a solid idea.

p.s. also like how in one of the quotes skope provides, nilbog indicates that the raid scene on this server is close to classic for top guilds on live, which is what the majority of us in the know have been saying all along.

[Skope]

If you think TMO or FE or IB or whoever can maintain that level of focus on tracking over an extended period of time, you are wrong. But honestly though I think Velious will alleviate most of the grievances. Kunark is just too fucking old.

I recall that same argument regarding Kunark, Jeremy.

I'm sure *this time* it'll be different.

[quido]

Maybe you believed it then, but I don't remember hearing it and I sure as hell wouldn't have believed it if I did. When most targets only require being tracked 2 out of 7 days a week, it's a little more reasonable.

Try 7 out of 7!

Regardless, such a statement doesn't hinder the credibility of my proposal.

I personally don't understand why the staff doesn't just try out something different. If it doesn't work out like you thought, you can always just revert it.


Whatever it is you do, though, you will never be able to account for the fact that we have A SINGLE SERVER.

[maverixdamighty]

I recall that same argument regarding Kunark, Jeremy.

I'm sure *this time* it'll be different.

the only reason tracking is manageable now is because of the windows and mobs splitting out over time, but you would know nothing about that making comments from the sideline. skope = definition of sunday morning quarterback.

[Skope]

the only reason tracking is manageable now is because of the windows and mobs splitting out over time, but you would know nothing about that making comments from the sideline. skope = definition of sunday morning quarterback.

That only holds water if it was me who said it, but it wasn't. It's a case of P99 Deja Vu. When threads like this popped up pre-kunark, the two guilds at the top were the first to claim it'd get better with the release of Kunark in rebuttle to the same arguments popping up here now.

[quido]

It holds water regardless, Skope. You can't say that this different situation will go exactly like the last one just because the last one went like that. It's idiotic. Please shut the fuck up.

[maverixdamighty]

skope you've made it abundantly clear you will only be happy when this server caters to casual guilds. this is a non-classic mentality so give it up.

i'm all for sharing mobs, doing things in coordination with other guilds etc, but if you expect rewards without any effort i don't know what to tell you other than i hope you don't live your life that way as well.

edit: also the top guilds at the time when kunark came out probably didn't think kunark would be the only content available for the next several years...eq allowed other guilds to get targets as the top guilds moved on to new/better content. this isn't happening here since there is no new content.

[xarzzardorn]

That only holds water if it was me who said it, but it wasn't. It's a case of P99 Deja Vu. When threads like this popped up pre-kunark, the two guilds at the top were the first to claim it'd get better with the release of Kunark in rebuttle to the same arguments popping up here now.



so it didn't really get better unless you're killing PD a couple times a month?

[Crazyeye]

Would like to see a headcount of how many level 60's there are between now - two and a half years ago when the next expansion was due. Compare that to how many raid targets vs how many people want to see new content, thats why theres zerg guilds.

[Famous]

This thread is funny. I've never raided here so I don't know what it's like, but the representatives of the major raid guilds that have posted here so far are painting a clear picture of the kind of person that you need to be to partake. I think I'll be OK just leveling a char up to 60 and quitting, or maybe using them to farm for alts =)

[Skope]

skope you've made it abundantly clear you will only be happy when this server caters to casual guilds. this is a non-classic mentality so give it up.

i'm all for sharing mobs, doing things in coordination with other guilds etc, but if you expect rewards without any effort i don't know what to tell you other than i hope you don't live your life that way as well.

edit: also the top guilds at the time when kunark came out probably didn't think kunark would be the only content available for the next several years...eq allowed other guilds to get targets as the top guilds moved on to new/better content. this isn't happening here since there is no new content.

Read nilbog's posts then read Rogean's patch notes.

I don't know who the hell you're arguing with here, but you seem to be under the assumption that I even expect any semblance of change when I quite clearly don't. If what's been going on as of late is any indication, you needn't worry about any change in the rules nor any "favors" for "casual" guilds. They've both made it quite clear that, even though they dislike it, they don't care enough to change it and would rather maintain the status quo. They're adding more variance and changing the way NPCs behave just to cater to you guys. I'm sure you'll be fine. You may want to start recruiting more, though.

I'm out ferrealz ferrealz.

I think I'll be OK just leveling a char up to 60 and quitting, or maybe using them to farm for alts =)

You and the vast majority of people that have ever stepped foot into this place. Enjoy it while you can and don't ever take it seriously. Consequently, don't ever give anyone respect just because they feel they're entitled to it, whether players or staff. If you find yourself dropping RL stuff to EQ then you're in dire need of a break.

[pharmakos]

Zerg guilds, on both servers, I wish you would drop some numbers or create rules or rotations with other guilds. It's ridiculous that it reaches the point that management is blamed for what happens in game.

quoted for posterity

[quido]

The window extensions should have been patched alongside a change that improved the chances of an early spawn for better balance against the overall decrease in the number of mobs.

While unfair to some, I think the window extension has helped discourage a lot of end-of-window poopsocking that would have happened otherwise.

[quido]

Let's try it out for a couple months and see how it goes. What do we have to lose? It's an easy change.

[Skope]

Let's try it out for a couple months and see how it goes. What do we have to lose? It's an easy change.

You forget that they promised we'd see the exact opposite, Jeremy. You're also implying that they would even bother changing anything in the first place, and that's quite the assumption.

[kotton05]

I want a pre variance

[quido]

Server second Naggy - #2 guild shows up fourteen hours early to poopsock it.

Explain to me how that is working.

[kotton05]

My god removing variance is not the answer.

[quido]

My proposal is variance of a different flavor. I personally liked the "halving the windows" idea, but similar to the window extensions, I think the "0.29% chance to spawn every 30 minutes" system would discourage socking more than any solution that has been proposed.

Or do you want 250 people parked on every spawn every single time, Zephany? That's what you're proposing, dumbfuck. No one gets to actually fight the mobs any more. Everything will die in 5 seconds.

[Tiggles]

Can we move this thread to RNF already?

[kotton05]

That's roughly once a week? Give or take?

Not to bad. But would like to see the epic mobs with a pre variance so they're not even more of a bottle neck maybe

[Splorf22]

Server second Naggy - #2 guild shows up fourteen hours early to poopsock it.

Explain to me how that is working.

To straight up remove variance, the 15-on-the-spawn poopsocking rule would have to be removed and just go with straight FTE. And lets be straightforward about this: the new ruleset would suck. 300 people show up 10 minutes before, buff, and annihilate said target. The hope is that it would suck so bad people would rotate :D

Like I've been saying for over a year now:

1. Simultaneous repops 1x per week
2. Ban trains in VP (so that TMO/FE have to go to VP rather than Trak/VS)
3. 1 hour notice before repops

Monitor for a few months and see. If necessary

4. Prevent people from logging on to more than one 'raid' account during the repop
5. Anti-camp-out code which makes people relog at the zone in

and if really necessary

6. Tokens.

[quido]

The 15-on-spawn rule is/was removed.

There's too many serious people crowded into one server for that to be a realistic solution, Loraen. It would just be a shitshow forever. Rotations across the board are fucking stupid anyways.

[Wiwi]

I too think the raid scene on this server is complete shit (and has been for far too long).

This is a PVE server, ie Care Bear central. All non-raid encounters require play-nice policy, but when it comes to raiding there's no more nice to be had, it's all Mad Max and the Thunderdome.

I agree with 99% of what Skope has pointed out. I don't know him at all, but his posts are pretty well thought out and I found myself nodding my head as I read.

I've had a dandy time with this server, as long as I turn a blind eye to the raiding aspect. Unfortunately, it seems like the devs are doing the same thing.

Nilbog, this server is the coolest EQ emulator hands down. People like Skope or anyone else who has spoken out about the toxic raiding scene does so (in most cases) because they care about the health of the server.

Try some different things. Drop variance. Institute new raiding rules on a limited basis to see how things pan out.

Thank you for this server and for bringing back one of my favorite gaming experiences.

[Vianna]

Server second Naggy - #2 guild shows up fourteen hours early to poopsock it.

Explain to me how that is working.

It is classic that is how. Tracking a mob for 40 hours is the same thing just one person at a time doing it. There should be no advantage simply because you have more people to log in at 3 AM than another guild. That just sways the competition and sides with the large guilds. It undercuts the guilds that are willing to put in the same amount of time as your trackers for a mob. Honestly most guilds aren't going to be able to sit at a mob continuously for 14 hours non stop and still be able to compete for every raid mob in game. But allowing a guild to do it for one mob they need to help their guildies finish epics is not out of the question. TMO and any guild that tracks or knows the spawn timers will still get the majority of the raid mobs. Heck they could still get there on time to FTE for the socked mob. But the system in place now makes it almost impossible for some guilds to compete for what they need based on a system that isn't classic.

Supporting a system to heavily favors you I understand Jeremy. But saying the other way isn't fair is flat out wrong. Time investment by people is what both systems work on. One with trackers and one with people willing to sit at a spawn. Look at the last Inny. We just found out today we had FTE on that mob 3 days later. How is that working ? I mean 3 guilds were up there when he popped and ready to kill it based on the current system with trackers up there that saw the mob pop. A few bad pulls and wipes later the mob died and you guys looted and ported out.....3 days later we finally learn who actually should have looted that mob.

[Splorf22]

The 15-on-spawn rule is/was removed.

There's too many serious people crowded into one server for that to be a realistic solution, Loraen. It would just be a shitshow forever. Rotations across the board are fucking stupid anyways.

We have a shitshow now.

Anyway as I said I think server resets are a better solution.

[quido]

Benefit: Smaller guilds have a means to claim some stuff they need.

Trade-off: High priority targets will always be killed by multiple guilds and no one will ever get a clean solo attempt.


I'm sorry, this isn't live. There's too many hardcore motherfuckers here - you will never be able to emulate the classic cooperation you guys remember and desire under these circumstances. Tell Nilbog to open another box or two. You're wallowing in hopeful ignorance if you really think removing variance altogether is a good trade-off.

[quido]

We have a shitshow now.

Anyway as I said I think server resets are a better solution.

Why not both? I figured you guys would be in favor of further punishing the guilds that want to try and get everything. Their will will falter.

By both I mean adjusting the variance per my proposal AND instituting a system of at least somewhat consistent repops.

[quido]

Furthermore, I think my proposal evens the playing field more when it comes to tracking. It makes it virtually impossible to keep everything tracked all the time, but at the same time if these same guilds resort to just having a person or two cycling trackers and spot-checking zones like I think they will, this is something that the smaller guilds could do with the same amount of ease.

As one of the larger trackers in TMO, I can tell you that if I tracked Talendor consistently for a few weeks and he never spawned in that time, I would be fucking pissed and probably wouldn't do it again.

[quido]

FTE Shout.

Do you have problems with your short-term memory?

This is not a perfect solution to a spawn sock - it merely helps alleviate some GM-intervention problems.

If 200 people (heaven forbid) are camped on Sev's spawn, and he pops and chain-fears a good chunk of them and these feared people are taking AEs and getting low HP and sending him running after people who aren't even part of the engage determined by the FTE shout, we have another boatload of problems.

Zephany you're fucking dumb AND an asshole.

[quido]

No. Your idea is all kinds of fucking stupid. It only exacerbates the tracking issue. ONLY those with trackers would ever get mobs which means zerg guilds. The only way to fix raiding on P99 is to

1) Remove Variance
2) Add FTE Shout
3) Remove VP DB exemption

So only zerg guilds ever managed to check and see if a mob was popped on live eh? You idiot

[maverixdamighty]

To straight up remove variance, the 15-on-the-spawn poopsocking rule would have to be removed and just go with straight FTE. And lets be straightforward about this: the new ruleset would suck. 300 people show up 10 minutes before, buff, and annihilate said target. The hope is that it would suck so bad people would rotate :D

Like I've been saying for over a year now:

1. Simultaneous repops 1x per week
2. Ban trains in VP (so that TMO/FE have to go to VP rather than Trak/VS)
3. 1 hour notice before repops

Monitor for a few months and see. If necessary

4. Prevent people from logging on to more than one 'raid' account during the repop
5. Anti-camp-out code which makes people relog at the zone in

and if really necessary

6. Tokens.

why would tmo/fe have to go to vp rather than trak/vs? both guilds could still get both of those mobs first as the other guilds on the server aren't going to kill anything in vp.

3 is going to still have people bitching who can't make the times that the resets happen and 4/5 are just bad ideas. it was classic to leave coth bots at certain strategic spots for mobs, but you want to get rid of even that?

again agreed more repops benefits everyone though.

[quido]

Believe it or not, I am against the full removal of variance not because it affects my guild - TMO will succeed under any ruleset/conditions - but because what it would bring would be fucking stupid. I experienced it here, Zephany; you did not. FTE shouts will not offset the idiocy of a dozen weekly spawnsocks. Nonetheless, I am in complete support of implementing FTE shouts as a means of reducing confusion and GM headaches.

[maverixdamighty]

FTE Shout.

Do you have problems with your short-term memory?

if you've been involved in a fte fight you would not be so quick to have this argument be your saving grace. do you really find it enjoyable to have 30 ppl sitting directly on top of the mob when it spawns fighting for the first agro? I thought the reason behind this thread was so that casual guilds could have fun attempting these mobs legitimately not cheesing them through fte snipes?

[Splorf22]

why would tmo/fe have to go to vp rather than trak/vs? both guilds could still get both of those mobs first as the other guilds on the server aren't going to kill anything in vp.

3 is going to still have people bitching who can't make the times that the resets happen and 4/5 are just bad ideas. it was classic to leave coth bots at certain strategic spots for mobs, but you want to get rid of even that?

again agreed more repops benefits everyone though.

Well are you and TMO really going to ally and agree to leave VP for last?

And yes, the whole point of 4/5 is to slow people down, so that you actually have to, you know, fight trash mobs and port around rather than just hide pull shit to the zone and be done in 5 minutes.

[Vexenu]

A well-designed token-spawning system is a non-classic proposal that would ultimately result in a more classic gameplay experience than any other proposal on the table. Importantly, it would also require almost zero GM intervention once implemented. The current variance system is totally un-classic. A simple FTE shout with no variance would result in 4-5 guilds at each spawn trying to win a FTE lotto, which is also totally un-classic.

A token system could allow for hardcore guilds to earn more tokens to spawn more raid mobs, while still allowing casual guilds a shot at the mobs on a less frequent basis. It is essentially a de facto rotation that doesn't require guilds to cooperate with each other, and allows for competition and guilds to set themselves apart, with more dedicated guilds getting more loot.

You can pick holes in a token system and think of ways it could be abused, but most of these could be addressed with good design. And even with flaws, the end result would be preferable to the status quo.

Ultimately the question is whether it is better to adhere to the spirit or the letter of the law. A token spawning system would better approach the spirit of classic EQ while obviously violating the letter, since no such system existed in classic. However, neither did variance, neither did a 2.5 year duration Kunark, neither did 24/7 tracking and 3AM batphoning, and neither did a single server overflowing with 60s. Given the fact that the server is already entirely un-classic in these important regards, a token system which is also un-classic but which would deliver classic gameplay results would seem to be preferable.

[quido]

#4 was the dumbest of the list, Loraen.

Such a thing can't be realistically enforced.

[quido]

The token system is a GM-enforced rotation by another name.

[Splorf22]

#4 was the dumbest of the list, Loraen.

Such a thing can't be realistically enforced.

Why not? Just lock each IP to one over L50 char. Seems fairly straightforward.

Actually here is a random idea: we take your variance but we add a twist: every guild gets a 'free' tracker. Something like /guildtarget "Trakanon" and the server will broadcast in guildchat when X mob spawns.

[Splorf22]

The token system is a GM-enforced rotation by another name.

Not true at all, the tokens pop the mob when you want rather than the random time. Also the number of spawns scales according to the number of players.

[Skope]

As one of the larger trackers in TMO, I can tell you that if I tracked Talendor consistently for a few weeks and he never spawned in that time, I would be fucking pissed and probably wouldn't do it again.

You still haven't at all mentioned how this non-classic mechanic doesn't favor the zerg.

If Jeremy gets tired you've got another 15 people behind him waiting to earn DKP. When Skope gets tired there's only 5.

I know all of this makes sense in your head, but you've either not explained it well enough or you're unaware or ignoring the obvious flaws here.

Anyway, that all hinges on this question:

What makes you think they'll do anything at all?

[maverixdamighty]

A well-designed token-spawning system is a non-classic proposal that would ultimately result in a more classic gameplay experience than any other proposal on the table. Importantly, it would also require almost zero GM intervention once implemented. The current variance system is totally un-classic. A simple FTE shout with no variance would result in 4-5 guilds at each spawn trying to win a FTE lotto, which is also totally un-classic.

A token system could allow for hardcore guilds to earn more tokens to spawn more raid mobs, while still allowing casual guilds a shot at the mobs on a less frequent basis. It is essentially a de facto rotation that doesn't require guilds to cooperate with each other, and allows for competition and guilds to set themselves apart, with more dedicated guilds getting more loot.

You can pick holes in a token system and think of ways it could be abused, but most of these could be addressed with good design. And even with flaws, the end result would be preferable to the status quo.

Ultimately the question is whether it is better to adhere to the spirit or the letter of the law. A token spawning system would better approach the spirit of classic EQ while obviously violating the letter, since no such system existed in classic. However, neither did variance, neither did a 2.5 year duration Kunark, neither did 24/7 tracking and 3AM batphoning, and neither did a single server overflowing with 60s. Given the fact that the server is already entirely un-classic in these important regards, a token system which is also un-classic but which would deliver classic gameplay results would seem to be preferable.

what's happening now is classic. top guild gets majority of mobs for the top content. don't know how anyone can intelligent state that a token system would be close to classic...the only servers a token system would emulate would be a rotation server.

[quido]

I could easily pretend to be 6 different people from 6 different locations and assign an account to each identity.

[maverixdamighty]

The point of Variance being removed is to attain a Classic ruleset that results in the removal of the current unnatural bottleneck of 1 guild claiming 90% of the loot because of their size and position as the best-armed guild.

In a repop/no Variance situation, all the mobs, spawning at once, means that TMO will not be able to track and destroy every mob. Other guilds will have every opportunity to engage untarged raid mobs as their size and organization allow.

if you say so. server repops show differently. if after the server patch the mobs are spaced out you don't think tmo/fe/guild x can have chars ready and parked at those other spots since they know the order and still get all of the mobs? Really....the only thing that will happen in your scenario is you are going to have more FTE zergfests.

[Splorf22]

I could easily pretend to be 6 different people from 6 different locations and assign an account to each identity.

Some would say from your number of posts that you already are! (well the same could be said of me hehe). Anyway you'd have to get multiple ips; it's not impossible but its a level beyond what most people can do.

[maverixdamighty]

Tell me of a guild that was watched by a GM on Live while exploiting that wasn't fucking banned on the spot.

i wasn't talking about cheating/exploiting etc. i was talking about the % of mobs locked down by top guilds on live. if anything a higher % of mobs were killed on a consistent basis on my server than TMO gets here.

edit: also the #2 guild was caught training deliberately multiple times it didn't result in guild bans etc. players got suspended was all i remember and it was usually their guild leader because he was their puller/trainer.

[quido]

You still haven't at all mentioned how this non-classic mechanic doesn't favor the zerg.

If Jeremy gets tired you've got another 15 people behind him waiting to earn DKP. When Skope gets tired there's only 5.

I know all of this makes sense in your head, but you've either not explained it well enough or you're unaware or ignoring the obvious flaws here.

Anyway, that all hinges on this question:

What makes you think they'll do anything at all?

I already said that it does favor the zerg, just not as much as the previous system. We may have more people ready to step up and track, but I still don't think it would be enough to sustain what is necessary for such changes.

I think my proposal would lower the bar for tracking, not raise it. TMO wouldn't track every target 24 hours a day 365 days a year. We would resort to a system of spot-checking stuff.

Loraen's idea was interesting though.

[quido]

Some would say from your number of posts that you already are! (well the same could be said of me hehe). Anyway you'd have to get multiple ips; it's not impossible but its a level beyond what most people can do.

Instead of having instructions on guild websites telling us how to normalize ventrilo output, you're going to see tutorials on doing exactly this.

[webrunner5]

Benefit:

I'm sorry, this isn't live. There's too many hardcore motherfuckers here - you will never be able to emulate the classic cooperation you guys remember and desire under these circumstances. Tell Nilbog to open another box or two. You're wallowing in hopeful ignorance if you really think removing variance altogether is a good trade-off.

That, and the fact that Velious is WAY overdue does not help the matter at all. Damn if you guys can't stand the horseshit why do you play here?? :confused::confused: Like the high top Guilds on live were any different than here?

[Skope]

I already said that it does favor the zerg, just not as much as the previous system. We may have more people ready to step up and track, but I still don't think it would be enough to sustain what is necessary for such changes.

I think my proposal would lower the bar for tracking, not raise it. TMO wouldn't track every target 24 hours a day 365 days a year. We would resort to a system of spot-checking stuff.

Loraen's idea was interesting though.

Unless I'm not remembering correctly, wasn't the whole 'don't artificially favor the zerg' part of nilbog's posts in here?

And answer my second question first!

*given that this thread will inevitably hit RnF, I'd figure I'll pitch in.

Jeremy, I remember you being two people at once.

http://crasstalk.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/drumroll.gif

[maverixdamighty]

That, and the fact that Velious is WAY overdue does not help the matter at all. Damn if you guys can't stand the horseshit why do you play here?? :confused::confused: Like the high top Guilds on live were any different than here?

this is what i'm not getting. people are acting like casual guilds were killing trak/vs/etc on live when kunark was the top content available. i'd be willing to bet a paycheck on non rotation servers, this only happened when new content became available and the top guilds moved on to greener pastures. Of course when velious/luclin/etc come out guilds are going to be able to do ct/inny/trak/vs/vp etc a lot more regularly...

[maverixdamighty]

Unless I'm not remembering correctly, wasn't the whole 'don't artificially favor the zerg' part of nilbog's posts in here?

And answer my second question first!

anything you are talking about is going to favor the zerg. with full repops and no variance if guild a has 90 players they can split their 90 to hit the 3 highest priorities and keep moving down to other targets etc...

so what you want to propose is all guilds have a hard cap of 30 players or something along those lines?

[quido]

For someone who doesn't seem completely unintelligent, Zephany, the fact that you believe such a system would be a harmonious replication of live is a complete discredit to you.

All those who think Zephany's proposal of removing variance altogether would be an improvement, please say so. I want to know if anyone is actually taking this idiotically absurd idea seriously.

[Vexenu]

The token system is a GM-enforced rotation by another name.

Indeed, I said as much:


It is essentially a de facto rotation that doesn't require guilds to cooperate with each other, and allows for competition and guilds to set themselves apart, with more dedicated guilds getting more loot.

However, unlike with a regular GM-enforced rotation, with an intelligent token system TMO, FE and any future hardcore guilds would still be able to utilize their superior organization and dedication to kill more mobs. The idea would be to reward guilds with increasing amounts of tokens based on the completion of VP/epic style quests, as well as having several other possible distribution methods (serverwide random drops, high price vendored tokens that spawn mobs dropping quest components only, etc...). There are tons of things you could do to distribute tokens in a way that would reward guilds based on the work they were willing to put in, rather than simply rewarding them for tracking and batphoning a huge guild roster.

It's not an insoluble problem if we're willing to go non-classic in your approach. And since we're already non-classic, I don't see why we shouldn't. The best result would be for hardcore guilds to be rewarded with more kills while allowing casual guilds to at least get a few mobs with their more limited time investment. The current system favors a winner-takes-all approach that I doubt even the winners truly enjoy, simply because it essentially requires treating the game like a job you're on call for 24/7.

[Skope]

anything you are talking about is going to favor the zerg. with full repops and no variance if guild a has 90 players they can split their 90 to hit the 3 highest priorities and keep moving down to other targets etc...

so what you want to propose is all guilds have a hard cap of 30 players or something along those lines?

Why do you still think I'm vouching for anything other than getting rid of variance, something that I've more than once admitted won't happen?

You keep responding to things I've never even remotely said nor insinuated. Who is using my forum account and what have they been saying?

[maverixdamighty]

Indeed, I said as much:



However, unlike with a regular GM-enforced rotation, with an intelligent token system TMO, FE and any future hardcore guilds would still be able to utilize their superior organization and dedication to kill more mobs. The idea would be to reward guilds with increasing amounts of tokens based on the completion of VP/epic style quests, as well as having several other possible distribution methods (serverwide random drops, high price vendored tokens that spawn mobs dropping quest components only, etc...). There are tons of things you could do to distribute tokens in a way that would reward guilds based on the work they were willing to put in, rather than simply rewarding them for tracking and batphoning a huge guild roster.

It's not an insoluble problem if we're willing to go non-classic in your approach. And since we're already non-classic, I don't see why we shouldn't. The best result would be for hardcore guilds to be rewarded with more kills while allowing casual guilds to at least get a few mobs with their more limited time investment. The current system favors a winner-takes-all approach that I doubt even the winners truly enjoy, simply because it essentially requires treating the game like a job you're on call for 24/7.

this is accomplished by just having more server resets and you can skip the token stuff.

[maverixdamighty]

Casual guilds occasionally did beat other guilds to these targets in off hours when people were asleep.

There was usually a guild filled with another nationality that got all of your off hour spawns.

what off hours? On live the top guilds had the timers on all the mobs we killed. only off hour spawns were random maintenance resets...

[maverixdamighty]

Why do you still think I'm vouching for anything other than getting rid of variance, something that I've more than once admitted won't happen?

You keep responding to things I've never even remotely said nor insinuated. Who is using my forum account and what have they been saying?

point is anything that happens will favor an organized zerg and you will still be complaining.

[quido]

Tokenquest sounds stupid. It necessitates that guilds of equal footing share an equal amount of mobs. This is stupid.

I'm taking a nap for a couple hours. Despite the whimsical ignorance of some of these suggestions, I think this is actually a rather fruitful discussion. I'll catch up later =) Have a swell evening!

[kotton05]

1. no, add a pre-variance.
2. ok that'd be cool.
3. VP noCSR , its the mecca of kunark, i enjoy my dragon buddies in there to much to not wanna help them kill tmo.

[enr4ged]

While I agree, you have to look at it from a server-staff standpoint. They're not going to want to have every raid mob petitioned and then have to sort through logs and determine who got FTE. The shouts settle the matter without ever needing to escalate.

Edit: It's also worth noting, that if there were no variance more than just FE/TMO would be showing up to raids. There would be 5+ guilds probably sitting there and waiting. If there were no shouts, and a GM had to rule individually each team can you imagine the crys of "favoritism" and RnF drama that would go on in the interem each and every team? The shouts would be 100% non-partial and indisputable. Things are bad enough when there is an FTE dispute WITH variance. Imagine if there wasn't any.

I'd take an FTE fight over the current variance any day.......

[maverixdamighty]

Please tell me specifically why this system would not work, please be specific, and I will debate you on the merits of your points.

1. Remove Variance
2. Add FTE Shout
3. Remove Play Nice Policy exemption from Veeshan's Peak.

if you like having 200ppl on top of the top targets and whoever gets the first hit gets the attempt for the guild then it will work for you. it's an awful system. if that is your definition of fun more power to you. you will get more loot than you do now hypothetically, but the enjoyment of doing the encounter as a guild will be ruined.

this server is fukd until more content comes out.

[Splorf22]

this is what i'm not getting. people are acting like casual guilds were killing trak/vs/etc on live when kunark was the top content available. i'd be willing to bet a paycheck on non rotation servers, this only happened when new content became available and the top guilds moved on to greener pastures. Of course when velious/luclin/etc come out guilds are going to be able to do ct/inny/trak/vs/vp etc a lot more regularly...

Casual guilds were not killing Trak/VS/Sev on live because they were all L50 due to the rapid release of expacs and the fact that the strats weren't known. It wasn't because they weren't willing to track/batphone . . . which wasn't necessary

[Skope]

point is anything that happens will favor an organized zerg and you will still be complaining.

Hold on, so the point is that you're going to reply in defense of things I've never said?

You're like a young alarti! Disregard what the person actually says, fill in what you want them to say and then argue until you're blue in the face, pointing out that it is clearly they who complain too much.

I like this game. Let me give it a go.

- No, Jeremy, you shouldn't bake your puppy. I don't care what the recipe says!

[maverixdamighty]

Please tell me what exactly would be the point of being a zerg guild would be in that instance that being 3 guilds would not accomplish?

That is exactly the point of removing Variance. It does not favor the zerg, it's classic, and it will work.

the loot would be pooled between the 1 guild instead of split amongst 3? Are you thinking before you type this stuff?

removing variance is classic 100% agreed. it is also classic to have new content released in a much faster manner so that guilds move on and do not monopolize content like what is happening now. also removing variance will still favor the zerg as they can split raid forces as i've already said.

[jijii]

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-vpE6uMJ37dk/UOScrne47aI/AAAAAAAAEL4/Ki-4IWO-SoY/s1600/ron-paul.gif

[maverixdamighty]

Casual guilds were not killing Trak/VS/Sev on live because they were all L50 due to the rapid release of expacs and the fact that the strats weren't known. It wasn't because they weren't willing to track/batphone . . . which wasn't necessary

so you think casual guilds would have gotten the mobs over the top guilds that had already been farming them on live? Think you are living in a dream world if that's the case. we had multiple guilds with enough 60's to kill those mobs on tholuxe and they weren't able to get anything but a handful until velious came out.

[Splorf22]

the loot would be pooled between the 1 guild instead of split amongst 3? Are you thinking before you type this stuff?

removing variance is classic 100% agreed. it is also classic to have new content released in a much faster manner so that guilds move on and do not monopolize content like what is happening now. also removing variance will still favor the zerg as they can split raid forces as i've already said.

Clearly removing variance does not favor the zerg. 1 50 player is exactly the same as 2 25 player guilds; they can split or have the same chance to get stuff. Loot/player ratio stays the same.

[kotton05]

if you like having 200ppl on top of the top targets and whoever gets the first hit gets the attempt for the guild then it will work for you. it's an awful system. if that is your definition of fun more power to you. you will get more loot than you do now hypothetically, but the enjoyment of doing the encounter as a guild will be ruined.

this server is fukd until more content comes out.

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_met3taEvNH1qas949.gif

[maverixdamighty]

Hold on, so the point is that you're going to reply in defense of things I've never said?

You're like a young alarti! Disregard what the person actually says, fill in what you want them to say and then argue until you're blue in the face, pointing out that it is clearly they who complain too much.

I like this game. Let me give it a go.

- No, Jeremy, you shouldn't bake your puppy. I don't care what the recipe says!

you're like someone who doesn't know crap about top end raiding on live and very little about what goes on now on the box.

why are you even still here if you think nothing is going to change? Go play wow and get your mobs in an instance that any type of guild can get.

[Vexenu]

Tokenquest sounds stupid. It necessitates that guilds of equal footing share an equal amount of mobs. This is stupid.

I'm taking a nap for a couple hours. Despite the whimsical ignorance of some of these suggestions, I think this is actually a rather fruitful discussion. I'll catch up later =) Have a swell evening!

The entire point of a token system that that guilds wouldn't have to share mobs. They would spawn their own; and guilds that were more dedicated would earn more tokens to spawn mobs with greater frequency. This system rewards dedicated players with more loot like any competitive system should. It also has numerous other benefits, such as removing the necessity of tracking, allowing guilds to plan their raid schedules in advance, eliminating the need for huge rosters and batphones, reducing the need for GM intervention and incalculably reducing server drama. It is positive on every level. Everyone gets more enjoyment. Casual guilds get mobs, dedicated guilds get more mobs, and nobody has to track or batphone their life away.

[maverixdamighty]

Clearly removing variance does not favor the zerg. 1 50 player is exactly the same as 2 25 player guilds; they can split or have the same chance to get stuff. Loot/player ratio stays the same.

so a top guild splitting their raid force in 2 to kill their top 2 priority targets is the same as 2 guilds each getting one mob?

Zerg Guild: kills trak + vs every repop
Split guild 1: kills vs
Split guild 2: kills trak

yes they both get the same amount of drop in the ratio as you mentioned but if that scenario looped repeatedly split guild 2 would never get vs loot and split guild 1 would never get trak while the zerg guild could potentially look down both mobs and keep all the loot in the 1 guild the entire time.

[maverixdamighty]

Ok, I get it. You're not good at math. I will go through this really simply and slowly for you.

You raid 3 raid targets and get 3 pieces of loot. You have either 30 people in 3 guilds or 90 people in 1 guild.

Example 1. 30 people in 3 guilds, each guild gets 1 piece of loot. This equals 1 piece of loot per 30 people.
Example 2. 90 people in 1 guild, each guild gets 3 pieces of loot. 90 divided by 3 equals 1 piece of loot per 30 people.

Please tell me how either group of people have an advantage?

just answered it in another post. the 90 guild gets the 3 pieces of loot that the rest of the server wants and keeps it in their ONE guild. meanwhile the split guilds may get one of their 3 priority targets and never get loot from the other two.

[kotton05]

The entire point of a token system that that guilds wouldn't have to share mobs. They would spawn their own; and guilds that were more dedicated would earn more tokens to spawn mobs with greater frequency. This system rewards dedicated players with more loot like any competitive system should. It also has numerous other benefits, such as removing the necessity of tracking, allowing guilds to plan their raid schedules in advance, eliminating the need for huge rosters and batphones, reducing the need for GM intervention and incalculably reducing server drama. It is positive on every level. Everyone gets more enjoyment. Casual guilds get mobs, dedicated guilds get more mobs, and nobody has to track or batphone their life away.

Sadly while thats a win / win. Back in 2000 half the fun was blocking others and ego fests i'd guess. Fast forward 14 years, certain folks trying to relive days they never had.

[maverixdamighty]

No, they can't, because they have to deal with FTE. Every guild who is at the mob, that can defeat the mob, when it pops, has an equal chance of winning it. It's completely Classic and it's completely fair.

if you say so. you also probably believe that because guild a has 25 ppl and guild b has 25 ppl both have an equal chance at getting FTE.

so glaringly obvious the people complaining never played in a top raiding guild on live.

edit: also lol at 200 people sitting on a mob spamming different buttons/items/etc on a mob being classic.

[Splorf22]

so you think casual guilds would have gotten the mobs over the top guilds that had already been farming them on live? Think you are living in a dream world if that's the case. we had multiple guilds with enough 60's to kill those mobs on tholuxe and they weren't able to get anything but a handful until velious came out.

A big part of it is practice. As I said, it would take a few months for things to stabilize.


Anyway its pretty clear to me mav that you aren't reading anything anyone else is posting, just reiterating your core viewpoint that hardcore players should be able to dominate the server and that no one should be able to experience the raid scene without putting in 40+ hours a week. To which I say: this is a fucking emulated version of classic EQ 14 years after the fact. Your viewpoint is mindboggling to me.

[enr4ged]

I think if things were really as bad as they're made out to be here on the forums, a couple guilds would have moved to Red and done well for themselves.

Because releveling to 60 is a breeze, right? Not everyone just buys accounts when they want.

[maverixdamighty]

A big part of it is practice. As I said, it would take a few months for things to stabilize.


Anyway its pretty clear to me mav that you aren't reading anything anyone else is posting, just reiterating your core viewpoint that hardcore players should be able to dominate the server and that no one should be able to experience the raid scene without putting in 40+ hours a week. To which I say: this is a fucking emulated version of classic EQ 14 years after the fact. Your viewpoint is mindboggling to me.

i've already said i'm willing to share mobs so you are way off. i'm simply pointing out all you people crying this isn't classic are kidding yourselves.

edit: i'd much rather agree to rotate some mobs and never have to worry about tracking again, believe me. i'd rather be in a guild of 24-30 ppl and do the mobs effectively as well if the stars aligned.

also when i am saying this is classic i mean that the top guilds get the vast majority of the mobs. obviously the variance is anything but classic, as would be the stupid 200 ppl sitting on mobs for fte snipe contests.

[maverixdamighty]

Yes, that's what I'm saying. Are you saying differently? Are you saying TMO or other "skilled" guilds that can tap their buttons slightly faster would have a greater percentage chance to get FTE? Then what is your objection to the system? WHAT IS YOUR GODDAMN OBJECTION, PLEASE COME UP WITH SOMETHING REAL?! You guys are just getting sad.

come fte next noble. you won't get it. this conversation is over with you because you obviously have no idea how this game works. at least loraen realizes it would take a decent amount of time for other guilds to consistently compete even with your no variance and FTE shout obsession.

[maverixdamighty]

So your objection to this logical, fair and Classic system is that you will get FTE every time because you're so awesome.

Dude... you're incredible, really something. lol

no my objection is it's far from classic and would make the encounters the lamest pos thing you have ever done. also guilds that are used to doing fte fights are going to be better at them and have people better prepared in the most efficient ways to compete. i'd imagine casual guilds would have rangers sitting back at range using their bows, people with their normal weapons on, etc.

dude...you obviously know very little about classic eq, this box, and can't read. pretty clearly stated it would take a transition period for other guilds to learn optimum mechanics for FTE contests and be able to compete better. confirmed.

[maverixdamighty]

No, it's an exact emulation of Classic

you obviously never played on classic. the only thing that resembles classic in your scenario is the removal of variance.

here is your chance. we are about to have a mob spawn and FTE shout is in place. what are you going to do to get agro first?

i'm fine with removal of variance with some sort of rotation in place but that isn't going to get agreed to and if you think you are going to have fun with fte battles you are in for a rude awakening. guilds will give up after not winning a few times just like they do now with tracking.

[maverixdamighty]

What about simultaneous repops and no Variance is not Classic? Which part of that exactly?

what part of being stuck with the same content for over two years is classic? what part of what you are suggesting will happen with 200 ppl sitting on top of a mob and fighting for them is classic? i'll wait.

answer the question about FTE and how you would get agro.

[maverixdamighty]

You have no answer for ANYTHING. Everything you say is shit.

everything i have said is experience from being in a top guild on live and on this server, which you 100% were not.

[maverixdamighty]

I am done talking to you on account of the fact that you can not point out one single thing that would be unClassic, unfair, or ineffective about the following steps:

1. Remove Variance
2. Add FTE Shout
3. VP = PNP

Good day!

already posted refutes on why all of your suggestions are not classic (this server isn't classic so all of your suggestions can't be classic). continue your ignorance and showing you were probably in blacksburrow when people were raiding on live.

if variance was removed and this server had progressed with content as it did on live you could have a classic experience. with the content bottlenecked and everyone being 60 etc you will never get a fully classic experience here now, PERIOD.

edit: way to duck the question on how you would get FTE on a mob. confirming you are clueless.

[maverixdamighty]

Will you tell me how you would? Why not? Think. lol

confirmed clueless.

have fun talking about implementing classic mechanics on a server that can never be classic now due to the time elapsed.

it's amusing.

you have confirmed you think 200 people sitting on a mob and battling for FTE is classic. you have shown repeatedly that you have no idea what happened on classic other than people played everquest.

[maverixdamighty]

So, that's your answer? That's your answer to my question? Two fucking meaningless words? I'm going to forum ignore you now. Goodbye forever and good riddance. Wow. WOW. rofl

i'd ignore people who know what they are talking about too when you clearly have no idea what you are talking about.

[maverixdamighty]

you want a classic experience? wipe server. release expansions as they came out on live while finishing development of velious (assuming it will be done by the time it should be released). Then remove variance and there you go classic minus some of the minor difference with mobs, mechanics already established.

[Splorf22]

Mav I would spam target nearest NPC / pet attack or target nearest npc / mallet.

[maverixdamighty]

OH MY GOD SPLORF this merely confirms how clueless you are!!! (whatever you had said)

Fucking 4th grade man. That guy is a joke.

you couldn't answer the question. i wouldn't use a mallet personally unless you were on your warrior, but that would be better than this moron enslaved would have done.

[Splorf22]

My point was only that everyone in TMO/FE seems to think that their success is due to brilliant skill/strategy when in fact 90% of it is simply time put in. Again, experience counts for a lot. I'm sure the first month of repops or FTE or whatever TMO/FE would clean up. But there is nothing you guys can do that we can't do . . . except all the tracking. Which is the whole fucking point of this thread.

[maverixdamighty]

My point was only that everyone in TMO/FE seems to think that their success is due to brilliant skill/strategy when in fact 90% of it is simply time put in. Again, experience counts for a lot. I'm sure the first month of repops or FTE or whatever TMO/FE would clean up. But there is nothing you guys can do that we can't do . . . except all the tracking. Which is the whole fucking point of this thread.

agreed to some extent. i don't think our success is due to brilliant/strategy i do think we have more natural raid leaders in those guilds though that are willing and able to do what it takes to compete with the server we were provided with. 90% time put in i'd disagree but bleh whatever.

also some guilds just have better players than others i don't think you can deny that. do i think because someene is in tmo they are top of the top of this server? hell no. do i believe they have some of the best players on this server? yes. I also think there are things tmo/fe can do that other guilds can't, but again you are entitled to your opinion. (not based off of skill alone, but he current gear differentials make things easier for us especially TMO)

i've spent too much time here arguing about how most of these suggestions are far from classic. again if you want a classic experience this server has to be wiped for the (no variance, fte shouts, vp changes, etc) experience to be classic (also again fte shouts aren't classic regardless) you can't just implement mechanics from live to this server and say they are classic when the progression of this server in itself isn't anywhere near classic.

[webrunner5]

You could wipe this server today and TMO would be top dog again in like 2 weeks. Solves nothing.

[xarzzardorn]

My point was only that everyone in TMO/FE seems to think that their success is due to brilliant skill/strategy when in fact 90% of it is simply time put in. Again, experience counts for a lot. I'm sure the first month of repops or FTE or whatever TMO/FE would clean up. But there is nothing you guys can do that we can't do . . . except all the tracking. Which is the whole fucking point of this thread.

you're fucking delusional dude. you think because you have a circlejerk thread where you solo idiot mobs each one the same as the last that you are this amazing player who is being held back by tmo/fe. tmo claims to be good at raiding not at having some intrinsic 'amazingness' in the soul of each member.

your ego is completely tied to the fact that you play one of the 2 classes who can solo effectively in kunark. you can't just give and take things away when it suits your argument because 'if i did something for x months/years i would probably be good at it' or vice versa

[pharmakos]

Zerg guilds, on both servers, I wish you would drop some numbers or create rules or rotations with other guilds. It's ridiculous that it reaches the point that management is blamed for what happens in game.

[Bazia]

1. make shit classic

that is all

[Vondra]

52 pages later and I think all anyone really did was validate what was said in the OP.

At any rate, the end game of classic EQ was very weak, being based on getting to mobs before others, certainly not on the difficulty of actually killing them. Changes made with variance, FTE shouts and all that might give more people that chance to be there first (which is what people have been going on about for however many pages). Hey, that's great for them and I hope they enjoy it. It still is what it is though, you win by hoping you get there first, which is a pretty goofy game. Of course, it was the first of its kind really and "endgame raiding" in MMOs has gone through a lot of changes since then.

There's a lot of things to like about classic EQ, but this would be one of the failed systems. I don't think there's a single person that would say it's fun being woken up at 3:15 am on the batphone to login for the Trak kill. It's 100% just for the loot and that's it. If they could just lean over in bed after getting that call and press 1 button on their computer so they could go back to sleep, and somehow that got them the loot anyway, they'd do it. Kinda like some pvp mechanics in EQ such as re-mezing someone over and over until you get bored which led to "diminishing returns" and various similar mechanics in future games.

There's a lot of fun to be had in twinking alts on p99 though. Just appreciate the game for what it is.

[HeallunRumblebelly]

Variance causes all of this. I don't think people would mind competing for FTE if we knew exactly when a target would spawn. It'd just be show up, zerg mob, log off. Hardly any time investment in raiding, no need for many multiples of alts, etc. But instead we wake up at the asscrack of dawn to raid shit cuz it decided to spawn 3 extended windows in. K.

[Splorf22]

you're fucking delusional dude. you think because you have a circlejerk thread where you solo idiot mobs each one the same as the last that you are this amazing player who is being held back by tmo/fe. tmo claims to be good at raiding not at having some intrinsic 'amazingness' in the soul of each member.

your ego is completely tied to the fact that you play one of the 2 classes who can solo effectively in kunark. you can't just give and take things away when it suits your argument because 'if i did something for x months/years i would probably be good at it' or vice versa

Xarz you are amazingly confident in your insults considering that you don't understand a word I'm saying. I'm going to try and be as simple as possible and see if I can sledgehammer this stuff into your brain.

1. I am not saying I am better than TMO, nor am I saying that they are bad at raiding. Clearly they are are very effective. I am saying that what you guys do is not hard. EQ in general is not hard.

2. I am not saying TMO is holding me back. I am saying that my unwillingness to track and join huge guilds is holding me back. I have only stated about 300 times in this thread that I hate the system, not the players.

3. Unlike you, I don't have a fucking ego regarding this game. When I die they will not put 'he played everyquest well on 1999' on my tombstone because I have a lot of other accomplishments to my name. The solo artist challenge is just something I do for fun. What you are doing is called projection, and your massive insecurity complex is on display.

So STFU unless you have something useful to contribute about fixing the raid scene, which in this very thread nilbog described as trash.

[Faerie Blossom]

Essentially, I want to recreate classic eq. When it goes beyond the actual work, it ... sucks. Managing people sucks. Managing people's expectations sucks worse.

Managing people and their expectations does suck, I would imagine. Which is why most modern developers choose not to, and implement systems that segregate people from one another instead. Instancing is the preferred method of keeping players out of one another's affairs these days, and it's not a bad way to go for PvE servers. Instancing is kind of blah though, imo, and the token idea seems like a much better route.

Raiding should be a challenge because the encounters themselves are difficult, not because the opportunities to raid are so scarce. Some bluebies may disagree with me, but batphoning and racing to raids is not competition; it's punctuality (without variance, anyway). And while punctuality may make you a good percussionist it has very little to do with being skilled at a video game.

The token system is a GM-enforced rotation by another name.

Yes, except it's easier on the GMs. So you get the benefit of forced rotation without all of the trouble, win/win. Another plus is that, depending on how it's implemented, the top guilds wouldn't even need to give up any of their spawns to give others a chance at the content. The only reason I could imagine a player taking issue with this would be that they miss out on the aforementioned punctuality contest. If you ask me though, there is currently way too much PvP on the blue server.

If anyone really cared about competition, they would have rolled on the red server where that sort of thing is possible beyond a petty game of "well I guess you should have logged in harder than us." Casual guilds want a chance at the content now that it's been a decade; can't the hardcore people just let them have it so long as they don't lose out on loot for it? How could a token system possibly be a bad thing?

Maybe the devs take issue with it for being too unclassic, and that's their business seeing as this is their server. But come on, as players we should have the best interests of our community at heart.

[Danth]

Casual guilds want a chance at the content now that it's been a decade; can't the hardcore people just let them have it so long as they don't lose out on loot for it? How could a token system possibly be a bad thing?

The 'hardcore' mindset isn't merely interested in getting pixels; it's interested in preventing anyone else from having those same pixels. Folks of that mindset will resist any change that will result in people who aren't them getting said pixels. If it were up to me I'd ignore those folks and implement a system that spread things around (take your pick, any of a number of proposals could work), but it ain't up to me. Good for me that I have no particular interest in raiding on P1999.

Instancing would of course fix most of the problems associated with raiding here (save for the folks who measure their success in terms of what other folks don't have). Threads such as this one continually illustrate why newer games tend to use liberal amounts of instancing. EQ's an old game and it has its flaws.

Danth

[pharmakos]

Raiding should be a challenge because the encounters themselves are difficult, not because the opportunities to raid are so scarce.

this 100%

[kotton05]

Xarz you are amazingly confident in your insults considering that you don't understand a word I'm saying. I'm going to try and be as simple as possible and see if I can sledgehammer this stuff into your brain.

1. I am not saying I am better than TMO, nor am I saying that they are bad at raiding. Clearly they are are very effective. I am saying that what you guys do is not hard. EQ in general is not hard.

2. I am not saying TMO is holding me back. I am saying that my unwillingness to track and join huge guilds is holding me back. I have only stated about 300 times in this thread that I hate the system, not the players.

3. Unlike you, I don't have a fucking ego regarding this game. When I die they will not put 'he played everyquest well on 1999' on my tombstone because I have a lot of other accomplishments to my name. The solo artist challenge is just something I do for fun. What you are doing is called projection, and your massive insecurity complex is on display.

So STFU unless you have something useful to contribute about fixing the raid scene, which in this very thread nilbog described as trash.

wow +1 man, this guy sends me hate tells more than any tmo and you summed up a lot of my thoughts, just wish xar could lighten up=)

[Clark]

http://s17.postimg.org/ff5im1jxr/midget1.jpg

[Itap]

No new friends

[webrunner5]

The big problem is that TMO, FE are just raiding the shit out of top mobs to equip there 4th or 5th alt now. And to sell shit for silly ass prices in the tunnel. While the lesser guilds have their main sucking hind tit. That's what pisses people off.

I have no clue what the answer is other than TMO and FE just take a vacation for a month or two. I mean how much shit do you really need??:confused::confused:

[maverixdamighty]

The big problem is that TMO, FE are just raiding the shit out of top mobs to equip there 4th or 5th alt now. And to sell shit for silly ass prices in the tunnel. While the lesser guilds have their main sucking hind tit. That's what pisses people off.

I have no clue what the answer is other than TMO and FE just take a vacation for a month or two. I mean how much shit do you really need??:confused::confused:

FE is no where near that and long time TMO members are geared out, but their recent waves of recruiting aren't that geared as of yet. Lumping TMO and FE in the same boat with regards to loot is lazy and ignorant.

[arsenalpow]

Well that's not entirely true. For TMO they have stacks and stacks of epic pieces that they sell. Those epic pieces are what many mages, SKs, necros, bards, and wizards desperately need to finish their epics. TMO doesn't even have alts that want the pieces but TMO will continue to kill these targets to keep the loot from others. You can't really lump FE into that situation.

That's probably the main source of this heartburn. No one in the 90% thinks they are entitled to the loot, they just want to complete an epic and fight the encounter because that's what this game should be about. I'm willing to bet that Rapture, Taken, Div, FC and whoever else can kill CT given the opportunity sans interference, but planar encounters especially are a complete shit show that usually involves a lot of "trains" and not a lot of discipline.

So what's the fix? People have offered numerous solutions but something has to be done. Either try something different or at least police these encounters properly. I'm hesitant to lead BDA into a CT encounter even if we have the head start because I know someone will walk in and trigger a DT cycle just because its apparently SOP, and then we'll get trained and they'll say "god BDA is so bad always training themselves" when everyone how this stuff usually goes down.

[Taboo]

.

[Alarti0001]

Well that's not entirely true. For TMO they have stacks and stacks of epic pieces that they sell. Those epic pieces are what many mages, SKs, necros, bards, and wizards desperately need to finish their epics. TMO doesn't even have alts that want the pieces but TMO will continue to kill these targets to keep the loot from others. You can't really lump FE into that situation.


Well for one most epic pieces are not stackable.

Secondly, our motivation isn't to keep you from getting loot (as much as you fantasize that it is) Most mobs drop some epic pieces commonly and other rarely. Its those rare ones we need. Or just rare items off those bosses in general.

[Alarti0001]

So STFU unless you have something useful to contribute about fixing the raid scene, which in this very thread nilbog described as trash.

Define useful. Is it the 1000th thread going over the same ideas?

Velious is the answer, and removing variance when velious comes out. Always has been, always will be.

[arsenalpow]

Well for one most epic pieces are not stackable.

Secondly, our motivation isn't to keep you from getting loot (as much as you fantasize that it is) Most mobs drop some epic pieces commonly and other rarely. Its those rare ones we need. Or just rare items off those bosses in general.

You're right Alarti, since these epic pieces aren't stackable there's no way to adequately hold on to them, you probably don't even loot them at this point. Soul leeches and earth staves rotting.

[this user was banned]

I'm a player and I suggest you plan on raiding.
/thread

[porigromus]

I think what people are getting at is if you are willing to make the server non-classic (variance), yet you realize it's bad and it's not working and it basically stops anyone that doesn't play the game 24/7 from competing for the bosses, then WHY do you leave it in the game?

Ideally someone who feels the sever should be classic would change it back. Or on the other hand, if someone is trying to make the raid scene better then they would change variance to something that works which is fine in my eyes. I thought this server was about emulating classic. So you should either emulate classic or fix the raid scene in a non-classic way so people can enjoy a somewhat classic server not be frustrated that only one guild gets to experience it.

So what's the problem? Either you want to fix raiding or you want the server to be classic. In it's current state variance is not doing either.

/thread

[porigromus]

I think what people are getting at is if you are willing to make the server non-classic (variance), yet you realize it's bad and it's not working and it basically stops anyone that doesn't play the game 24/7 from competing for the bosses, then WHY do you leave it in the game?

Ideally someone who feels the sever should be classic would change it back. Or on the other hand, if someone is trying to make the raid scene better then they would change variance to something that works which is fine in my eyes. I thought this server was about emulating classic. So you should either emulate classic or fix the raid scene in a non-classic way so people can enjoy a somewhat classic server not be frustrated that only one guild gets to experience it.

So what's the problem? Either you want to fix raiding or you want the server to be classic. In it's current state variance is not doing either.

I still think this would do it:

Tokens given out any other way than random rare drops would be abused. Alts in guilds would form multiple guilds to allow maximum chance for tokens. Say tmo1 tmo2 tmo3, you get the point.

I think random items that are used to remove enraged state of raid mob should drop. All raid targets spawn in an enraged state (hits for 100000000000 and hp10000000000000000 unkillable until item makes it normal) varience would not exist any longer, would spawn as it would in classic. I think they should have a chance to drop off ANY mob level 20+ in the game with only one per spawn cycle, after one is found during a certain time period no others will drop until it is used or poofs. The items can't be saved, will poof after normal spawn cycle of raid mob. This alows it to be used trying to kill the raid boss. After it is used either the guild kills the target or it is left standing for the next force ready. Same rules if a guild was to fail at killing a boss now. The enraged state is gone until next cycle.

Anyone in game would have a chance to find an item to remove enraged state. It can be traded. No more poop socken, no more headaches for server staff. If some sees a flaw in how this could be abused please do tell.

[lecompte]

^ I'm having deja vu about porigromus' post, feels like I read it yesterday somewhere?

[Skope]

^ I'm having deja vu about porigromus' post, feels like I read it yesterday somewhere?

This entire thread is deja vu.

[Zade]

You should petition the server staff and ask them to implement a server-wide rotation.

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/004/006/y-u-no-guy.jpg

[Uggme]

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/004/006/y-u-no-guy.jpg

What an amazingly appropriate response from a staff member, LMAO

[webrunner5]

Lumping TMO and FE in the same boat with regards to loot is lazy and ignorant.

Trust me nobody in the "lesser guilds" give a fuck about TMO or FE. And they are not lazy and ignorant. They might even be called normal instead of eat up with with the dumb shits about a 14 year old game as adults now.

[JurisDictum]

I've been playing the server 2 months now. I got to say. The BS I read on these forums is misleading at best.
A week ago my brother and I were running through DL and saw Gorenaire up, and had to acutally tell a guild he was up before a raid force showed. This isn't the first time I've seen a viable raid/groupable mob up for quite awhile before being downed...people with 15 level 60 at accounts?..please.
This hyperbole about 24/7 camped raid targets is ridicules. Yes the guilds with more people on a lot get targets the vast majority of the time...who would of thought? I'm guessing there are even a handful of players without jobs that camp them...
Welcome to Everquest 1999. This is exactly how it used to be. Don't expect to to raid the top endgame targets unless you are a power gamer, end of story.
The thing about a server based on nostalgia, is it seems to attract a type of person that is very idealistic and ungrounded in their thinking. What they really want is a server where they can play 4 hours 3 days a week and raid top targets. There is a game where you can do this...its called WoW. Or Perhaps the EZ server...idk.

[feanan]

Yeah, wow, you've got a lot of opinions for your whole 2 months here.

You sound like you headed for TMO with that attitude.

[arsenalpow]

I've been playing the server 2 months now. I got to say. The BS I read on these forums is misleading at best.
A week ago my brother and I were running through DL and saw Gorenaire up, and had to acutally tell a guild he was up before a raid force showed. This isn't the first time I've seen a viable raid/groupable mob up for quite awhile before being downed...people with 15 level 60 at accounts?..please.
This hyperbole about 24/7 camped raid targets is ridicules. Yes the guilds with more people on a lot get targets the vast majority of the time...who would of thought? I'm guessing there are even a handful of players without jobs that camp them...
Welcome to Everquest 1999. This is exactly how it used to be. Don't expect to to raid the top endgame targets unless you are a power gamer, end of story.
The thing about a server based on nostalgia, is it seems to attract a type of person that is very idealistic and ungrounded in their thinking. What they really want is a server where they can play 4 hours 3 days a week and raid top targets. There is a game where you can do this...its called WoW. Or Perhaps the EZ server...idk.

Gore is a special case because she's basically the hardest kunark target outside of VP (or maybe queen bee) so only TMO/FE and BDA (on a good day) can take her down

[stonez138]

I've been playing the server 2 months now. I got to say. The BS I read on these forums is misleading at best.
A week ago my brother and I were running through DL and saw Gorenaire up, and had to acutally tell a guild he was up before a raid force showed. This isn't the first time I've seen a viable raid/groupable mob up for quite awhile before being downed...people with 15 level 60 at accounts?..please.
This hyperbole about 24/7 camped raid targets is ridicules. Yes the guilds with more people on a lot get targets the vast majority of the time...who would of thought? I'm guessing there are even a handful of players without jobs that camp them...
Welcome to Everquest 1999. This is exactly how it used to be. Don't expect to to raid the top endgame targets unless you are a power gamer, end of story.
The thing about a server based on nostalgia, is it seems to attract a type of person that is very idealistic and ungrounded in their thinking. What they really want is a server where they can play 4 hours 3 days a week and raid top targets. There is a game where you can do this...its called WoW. Or Perhaps the EZ server...idk.

Guy clearly knows more about there server after two months then folks playing on here for years. Just ask him, he will tell you!

[LiQuid]

Also correct me if I'm wrong but Gore doesn't drop any epic pieces that TMO can sell back to the community for 300k+ a pop. ;)

[JurisDictum]

Also correct me if I'm wrong but Gore doesn't drop any epic pieces that TMO can sell back to the community for 300k+ a pop. ;)
Surely one member on one of their 6 alts (that each player has) can use Gore drops.

[LiQuid]

You're being silly if you think a lot of players (not even just the ones in TMO) don't have a fleet of high level characters, many of which stay parked at highly contested raid targets as well. This server is old, the content is stagnant, and getting to 60 isn't that difficult. Plus the amount of account buying/selling that goes on makes it incredibly easy to just buy alts for raiding.

More to the point though, Gore is not highly contested because it's a difficult kill and the drops aren't great. You can't use Gore as a comparable to other high end raid targets.

[JurisDictum]

You're being silly if you think a lot of players (not even just the ones in TMO) don't have a fleet of high level characters, many of which stay parked at highly contested raid targets as well. This server is old, the content is stagnant, and getting to 60 isn't that difficult. Plus the amount of account buying/selling that goes on makes it incredibly easy to just buy alts for raiding.

More to the point though, Gore is not highly contested because it's a difficult kill and the drops aren't great. You can't use Gore as a comparable to other high end raid targets.

RBB, White Dragon Scales, Hierophant`s Crook, DHB...yea what a bunch of crap that doesn't sell. What a great testimony to your veteran server knowledge (all it takes it a wiki search bro). And given that Gore is down the day it spawns, it clearly is contested.
I have no doubt that there are many TMO members (but not all) that have several alts. I just simply call BS on the story about full raid forces of alts camped at every raid target. Maybe they T-Staff naggy like on my old server, [or check a few other easy targets every 3-4 hours..otherwise, I'll believe it when I see it.
All of which is beside the point. Which is that top raid guilds have always dominated most the top content. That is what EQ was until instancing. There is nothing especially greedy about TMO from what I've seen. The only thing different about p1999 from live, is the time between expansions. If the server was Luclin era, people would be bitching about TMO alts camping AoW for cash between their VT raids. If TMO didn't exist it would FE or some other guild. If no guild locked down Kurnark dragons (whether this era or any other till post GoD), than some group of players would regardless.
These complaints are about causal vs dedicated players..nothing more.

[Bazia]

if u dont believe there are full raid forces camped out on a huge majority of targets or within 2-3 minutes of a target then you are stupid and/or new

[LiQuid]

RBB, White Dragon Scales, Hierophant`s Crook, DHB...yea what a bunch of crap that doesn't sell. What a great testimony to your veteran server knowledge (all it takes it a wiki search bro).

I know what Gore drops, dum dum. None of that stuff is an epic drop that can be banked and/or ransomed off for a 300k+ pay off. There are epics in this game that are almost completely bottlenecked by the "dedicated players." How many Necro/Mage/Wiz/Ranger epics have you see in your 2 whole months on P99? I personally see drastically less on P99 than there were during the Kunark->Velious time frame on Live, regardless of the fact that this content has been stagnant for years and the mobs that drop those items could be easily dispatched by casual guilds if they didn't have to fight trains, poopsocks and pre-parked alt armies to get them. If one or two "dedicated" guilds didn't have a bottleneck on this stuff, those epics would by realistically obtainable by way more people than just the population of TMO and FE.

[Tasslehofp99]

The big problem is that TMO, FE are just raiding the shit out of top mobs to equip there 4th or 5th alt now. And to sell shit for silly ass prices in the tunnel. While the lesser guilds have their main sucking hind tit. That's what pisses people off.

I have no clue what the answer is other than TMO and FE just take a vacation for a month or two. I mean how much shit do you really need??:confused::confused:

Your info is a bit off. 90% of FE mains still need gear off raid mobs, tmo has had kunark locked down for 2 years now, they should just be banned from raiding outside VP till velious.

[Splorf22]

Gorenaire drops items that are worth less than the spore king on average, and is the hardest raid mob outside of VP. Clearly your seeing this high-risk/low reward mob up once for an hour or two before it died is proof that all raid mobs are available most of the time.

[Tasslehofp99]

Gorenaire drops items that are worth less than the spore king on average, and is the hardest raid mob outside of VP. Clearly your seeing this high-risk/low reward mob up once for an hour or two before it died is proof that all raid mobs are available most of the time.

Most recently:
FE downed gore with 33, which is about our average raid force.
She dropped a shield which is amazing for VP frost wurms, a scale which will eventually be used for someones epic, and some other items which I forget. If TMO had gotten this kill these items would be on the market in EC within hours. Dont believe me? Zone into EC when zeelot or eccezan is there.

Yet when FE gets a kill all loot is used by mains who need, how are we even placed in the same category as TMO? For christs sake they are running a pay to play scheme in VP meanwhile anyone not in TMO will have to wait months after velious is out to even go there unless they pay TMO or spend hours training against their 100 character raid force just to get an attempt at a dragon.


The problem.on p99 isn't mechanics, raid mobs spawn time, or anything thr GMs can change. P99s problem is TMO, has been for years. When people realize this on a grand scale maybe they will join forces and rid p99 of its cancer.

[enr4ged]

RBB, White Dragon Scales, Hierophant`s Crook, DHB...yea what a bunch of crap that doesn't sell. What a great testimony to your veteran server knowledge (all it takes it a wiki search bro). And given that Gore is down the day it spawns, it clearly is contested.
I have no doubt that there are many TMO members (but not all) that have several alts. I just simply call BS on the story about full raid forces of alts camped at every raid target. Maybe they T-Staff naggy like on my old server, [or check a few other easy targets every 3-4 hours..otherwise, I'll believe it when I see it.
All of which is beside the point. Which is that top raid guilds have always dominated most the top content. That is what EQ was until instancing. There is nothing especially greedy about TMO from what I've seen. The only thing different about p1999 from live, is the time between expansions. If the server was Luclin era, people would be bitching about TMO alts camping AoW for cash between their VT raids. If TMO didn't exist it would FE or some other guild. If no guild locked down Kurnark dragons (whether this era or any other till post GoD), than some group of players would regardless.
These complaints are about causal vs dedicated players..nothing more.

Speaking of TMO...

350k for green scales
500k for bard epic piece

And those are just the ones I've personally witnessed over the past 2 weeks.

Yeah, that is the definition of greedy. It's one thing to use items for mains but when you see them tossing off green scales for 350k and bard epic pieces for 500k it's greedy, and at that point it's less about the actual game and really shady...

[arsenalpow]

Like 750 for slime blood (necro epic)

[quido]

Insert comment from Sominus about Ramen Noodles

[Tasslehofp99]

Most recently:
FE downed gore with 33, which is about our average raid force.
She dropped a shield which is amazing for VP frost wurms, a scale which will eventually be used for someones epic, and some other items which I forget. If TMO had gotten this kill these items would be on the market in EC within hours. Dont believe me? Zone into EC when zeelot or eccezan is there.

Yet when FE gets a kill all loot is used by mains who need, how are we even placed in the same category as TMO? For christs sake they are running a pay to play scheme in VP meanwhile anyone not in TMO will have to wait months after velious is out to even go there unless they pay TMO or spend hours training against their 100 character raid force just to get an attempt at a dragon.


The problem.on p99 isn't mechanics, raid mobs spawn time, or anything thr GMs can change. P99s problem is TMO, has been for years. When people realize this on a grand scale maybe they will join forces and rid p99 of its cancer.

Speaking of TMO...

350k for green scales
500k for bard epic piece

And those are just the ones I've personally witnessed over the past 2 weeks.

Yeah, that is the definition of greedy. It's one thing to use items for mains but when you see them tossing off green scales for 350k and bard epic pieces for 500k it's greedy, and at that point it's less about the actual game and really shady...


Yep, 2 years of this shit now. When will it be enough really?

Like 750 for slime blood (necro epic)

Pathetic greed at its finest, what would you propose we do to change such scummy aspects of the p99 raid scene since the GMs have stated many times that its up to the players to make changes.

[LiQuid]

What I don't get is at this point is it not considered griefing to monopolize content to this extent? If a guild on this server composed of all high level characters made it a mission to go and monopolize every newbie zone in the game insuring that no new character could level up from 1-5 would the GMs not step in and stop them? Or would newbies have to run around trying to FTE rats and bats?

[Splorf22]

What I don't get is at this point is it not considered griefing to monopolize content to this extent? If a guild on this server composed of all high level characters made it a mission to go and monopolize every newbie zone in the game insuring that no new character could level up from 1-5 would the GMs not step in and stop them? Or would newbies have to run around trying to FTE rats and bats?

Look I dislike the insane alpha-nerd competition that goes on on this server. But griefing? That's ridiculous. TMO simply designed their guild to play the variance game (a copy of IB's original model, and FE the latest instance). You get a whole bunch of players who really want the pixels, you give DKP for tracking, you recruit worldwide, etc etc. It's not TMO's fault that Velious is going to take 3 years to come out. Do you really expect a bunch of hardcore EQers to just say 'eh, we'll just all go on vacation for 2 years?'

[xarzzardorn]

What I don't get is at this point is it not considered griefing to monopolize content to this extent? If a guild on this server composed of all high level characters made it a mission to go and monopolize every newbie zone in the game insuring that no new character could level up from 1-5 would the GMs not step in and stop them? Or would newbies have to run around trying to FTE rats and bats?

people already do this with bard aoe

[xarzzardorn]

Most recently:
FE downed gore with 33, which is about our average raid force.
She dropped a shield which is amazing for VP frost wurms, a scale which will eventually be used for someones epic, and some other items which I forget. If TMO had gotten this kill these items would be on the market in EC within hours. Dont believe me? Zone into EC when zeelot or eccezan is there.

Yet when FE gets a kill all loot is used by mains who need, how are we even placed in the same category as TMO? For christs sake they are running a pay to play scheme in VP meanwhile anyone not in TMO will have to wait months after velious is out to even go there unless they pay TMO or spend hours training against their 100 character raid force just to get an attempt at a dragon.


The problem.on p99 isn't mechanics, raid mobs spawn time, or anything thr GMs can change. P99s problem is TMO, has been for years. When people realize this on a grand scale maybe they will join forces and rid p99 of its cancer.

you are furious and cranking your posts up to troll levels of BS can't hide it.

[Tasslehofp99]

you are furious and cranking your posts up to troll levels of BS can't hide it.

How am I furious? I've seen the way things work here on p99, and the truth is you either join or pay TMO to see the end game. Been happeninh for 2 years or more now, you're just a greedy sheep among many in TMO who are blinded by the loot. Xarz, you haven't even been in TMO long enough to realize how wrong you are.


For example lets say you are a necro in the guild rapture, you just need CT and Inny to get your epic. Your guild is capable of killing both of these mobs but the only way to beat TMO's swarm numbers and training is to just poopsock literally days on end to kill 1 mob for one person. This requires your entire guild to camp out in hate, and keep in mind your guild doesn't have 2 years worth of raid loot to gear multiple toons and trivialize all content. This leads to people burning out or simply giving up in frustration and quitting p99.


But no worries for the fine price of 1 million or more plat you can buy your epic peices from TMO's overlords and finish your epic. All is well right? This seems totally fair, that the only way to complete epics here is join TMO/FE and invest insane amounts of time or invest insane amounts of time to farm the plat that TMO is asking, so this seems fair right?

It comes down to the type of guild TMO wants to be. Are they greedy hogs who would rather collect loot they don't need so they can sell for profit? Well based on history this was the choice they made, why you can't accept the fact that this is the guild you joined xarz? You're now associated with some of the greediest cunts I've ever come across on any MMO. And no, pixels don't make you the best guild, your members do. I see very few TMO in game that I would associate with in any manner. But that's just my personal integrity and honesty. Some of us lack that and are content lying to themselves to acquire pixels by any means necessary.





Really though I just wish people caught on fraps using exploits and training were banned accordingly. Desmo and aiaus should both be perma banned according to sirken's last broadcast about IP exemption exploiting, but both were unbanned despite clear fraps of their offenses.

[Tasslehofp99]

This shit needs to be taken care of before this latest wave of new players on p99 soon learns the truth about the end game here and quits just like thousands of other players have in the past 3 years.

[quido]

Hey OP.... plan on raiding bro

[Tasslehofp99]

Hey OP.... plan on raiding bro

He probably would if the raiding scene here wasn't so shitty and controlled by cockblocking greedy donald trump wannabes, lol.

[quido]

Don't let chronic whiners like Tasslehof discourage you, OP. A lot of us really enjoy the raiding here on p99!

[Tasslehofp99]

Don't let chronic whiners like Tasslehof discourage you, OP. A lot of us really enjoy the raiding here on p99!

How much weight do you think your opinion carries? Your guild is single handedly responsible for driving away thousands of players here, you shouldn't even be allowed to post on a thread regarding the dire state of the p99 raiding scene.

[quido]

And still you raid here? Sounds terrible

[Tasslehofp99]

And still you raid here? Sounds terrible

After Im done with p99 I'm finished with everquest for good, I haven't let your guild's oppression stop me from enjoying the game. I've just invested far more time playing than I would have cared to. The point here is your guild is responsible for ruining a lot of folks experience on p99. Why anyone would associate themselves willingly with such a greedy, disrespectful, and dishonorable organization is beyond me and quite frankly the lack of a wide scale server wide opposition is the only thing I still wish for on this server. I don't even care about loot, just want justice to ve served at this point.

[quido]

Have a glass of water and goto sleep man. You'll feel better in the morning.

[Tasslehofp99]

Have a glass of water and goto sleep man. You'll feel better in the morning.

Stuck at work till 8 am, reppin them gravediggers brah.

[Nune]

Don't people remember live? TMO is chokeholding the raid scene agreed, but so did every other guild who was sittin on the pole position raid wise (ohaipun). Like I said before, the server created a monster out of TMO. If people didnt treat this 14 year old elf simulator like religion and pay all these retarded amounts of runed mithril tunics for pixels and accounts, then the evil force of the server wouldnt exist. The only way to immerse a nerd further in is to pay him to do it, and yalls the ones puttin numbers into their paypals

[quido]

I'm seriously amused by how villainized we get! Back pre-kunark before the appearance of a real #2, IB wouldn't even sell a single dragon haste item, despite having numerous banked, because of the relative advantage it would provide the imaginary opposition.

[enr4ged]

I'm seriously amused by how villainized we get! Back pre-kunark before the appearance of a real #2, IB wouldn't even sell a single dragon haste item, despite having numerous banked, because of the relative advantage it would provide the imaginary opposition.

I'm not sure why you are suprised, of anyone in TMO you cause and deserve it the most.

Exactly like what TMO does with Undead Dragongut Strings, right?

[enr4ged]

Don't people remember live? TMO is chokeholding the raid scene agreed, but so did every other guild who was sittin on the pole position raid wise (ohaipun). Like I said before, the server created a monster out of TMO. If people didnt treat this 14 year old elf simulator like religion and pay all these retarded amounts of runed mithril tunics for pixels and accounts, then the evil force of the server wouldnt exist. The only way to immerse a nerd further in is to pay him to do it, and yalls the ones puttin numbers into their paypals

Not sure what shitty server on live you played on, but if it was anything like P1999 then I feel sorry for you. Live was an entirely different scene on my server.

Two extra years really plays a part into the Kunark scene and when one guild monopolizes the raid mobs by selling epic pieces for huge plat amounts, buying accounts, and sitting on three different raid spawns, it's time for something to be done about it. Instead the dev's just sit back and let TMO ruin what would otherwise be a great classic experience for 95% of the server.

[Tasslehofp99]

Don't people remember live? TMO is chokeholding the raid scene agreed, but so did every other guild who was sittin on the pole position raid wise (ohaipun). Like I said before, the server created a monster out of TMO. If people didnt treat this 14 year old elf simulator like religion and pay all these retarded amounts of runed mithril tunics for pixels and accounts, then the evil force of the server wouldnt exist. The only way to immerse a nerd further in is to pay him to do it, and yalls the ones puttin numbers into their paypals



What a fucking thundergun-esque response.


I'm seriously amused by how villainized we get! Back pre-kunark before the appearance of a real #2, IB wouldn't even sell a single dragon haste item, despite having numerous banked, because of the relative advantage it would provide the imaginary opposition.

IB never trained my guild 3 to 4 times 2 years ago when we were in zone clearing hate/fear for armor when a boss popped which we were capable of killing with ease. TmO did though, they trained a casual raiding guild who was in position to pull maestro/inny/draco before them because they were there first. Half of FE is made of folks from these smaller guilds you crushed with your oppression. TmO villainizes themselves with their actions, its sad you find it amusing maybe the server pop would stay around 1000 if your guild wasn't so destructive towards p99.

[Clark]

how is this this thread still alive