More than 4 npc's shouldn't be able to attack a target at once

[koros]

Forgot all about this. I forgot when it was changed, Velious/Luclin right? If it was in Kunark just ignore this but, here's proof from a thread Nilbog linked:

http://web.archive.org/web/200101231906/http://forums.castersrealm.com/eq/Forum8/HTML/000930.html

"PEts are uselss on mobs that fear or when you have more then 4 pet users as only 4 pets can be on a mob at once. So draco,vox, naggy pets are useless as they'll be feared non stop."

[khanable]

So you mean to tell me bards should be able to get hit by their kite and live?


God dammit

[Ele]

I do recall something like this to the effect that if you had more than 4 mobs on you and they caught up to melee range, that 4 would engage you and the others would start walking away, until you moved out of melee range and then they would pursue again.

Will dig and see what turns up.

This + proximity aggro working correctly would be epic!

[Nirgon]

This rings a bell I got nothing solid for you tho

[Sarius]

No proof of this, but I believe it was either late Kunark or Velious. If a target had more than 4 mobs agroed, as the 5th plus mobs approached melee range, that would run away and not engage until one of the original 4 was downed. I think this is where "quad" kiting came from.

[Nirgon]

Quad kiting came from pillar / instant targeted aoe type spells have a max of 4 targets, Al'Kabor line which is the exception having 5 (it originally had unlimited and still would work on unlimited targets in PvP after the nerf).

[Sarius]

Then what was the "nerf" to swarm kiting? Was it changing the behavior of mobs when more than 4 are agroed, or was it changing the max amount of targets affected by detrimental songs?

[Ele]

Then what was the "nerf" to swarm kiting? Was it changing the behavior of mobs when more than 4 are agroed, or was it changing the max amount of targets affected by detrimental songs?

Are you referring to swarm kiting as in bard aoe/dot kiting or charming a mob in the middle of a pack so all the npcs beat it down for you?

[Sarius]

AoE/DoT/low hp agro kiting

[Ambrotos]

I reported this before, I'll see if I can find it.

Best way to describe this is odd.

On classic, as a wizard I would play around with root. If you tried to root more than 4 npcs, root would automatically wear off one of the 4 npcs you had rooted, and the 5th one would become rooted. Meaning you could only root 4 max. AOE mez and such, there were no restrictions like this if I recall.

After you rooted the 5th npc, the 4th npcs root would wear off and just walk away. Once you killed one of the 4 rooted npcs, it would come back and attack you.

So this is how I found this out on live pre SoV expansion.

I will try and dig for links also. But I hope what I said helps finding some info out.

[Splorf22]

Sounds like there was some sort of fixed size array in there somewhere, and Verant had some hacks.

Personally this is one of those "this is just retarded" things but I doubt Nilbog will see it that way :D

[KotBK]

I remember a couple years ago (sometime in 2011) when Shaere brought this up and got laughed at. Now everyone seems to take it serious all this time later, interesting. Not knowing the thread OP referenced, maybe it was the same one from back then. Still this trend of not reporting things or taking them serious until after it has long been exploited or abused is getting ridiculous.

[Ele]

I remember a couple years ago (sometime in 2011) when Shaere brought this up and got laughed at. Now everyone seems to take it serious all this time later, interesting. Not knowing the thread OP referenced, maybe it was the same one from back then. Still this trend of not reporting things or taking them serious until after it has long been exploited or abused is getting ridiculous.

If you can show a single person that posted in this thread making fun of the 2011 thread, then you have a semi-valid point.

[nilbog]

So when 6 mages would kill Dain by chain casting air pets..

However, and this currently works on p99 as far as I know, npcs choosing to attack npc targets is limited. Take Highpass Hold for example.. when the orcs choose to jihad against the Highkeep entrance, they leave in a pack of 10+. Along the way, Highpass Citizens fight them. If one or more of those orcs passes a citizen already engaged with X amount of npcs, it will bypass them and keep going. Thought it was worth mentioning.

[koros]

I recall that thread a while back. I... think(?) I argued for it, it's something I definitely recalled once I read it.

Basically, only 4 mobs could engage at a time on one given target period. It was actually used as a tactic if you got 4 low level mobs attacking someone and 1 or more harder mobs, they would just sit there helpless to actually attack. On live it was hard to pull off (maybe we just sucked).

Same applied for pets, if there were 4 pets on an npc and you sent your pet, he'd just stand there near the mob, I think they sort of alternated which 4 were attacking, but I'm not positive.

Nilbog: I'm pretty sure that what you mentioned is a bit different. NPCs wouldn't goto the second on the hatelist/ignore the target if there were too many npcs already attacking, they'd just stand there waiting for a turn to attack.

[koros]

Also... this would be rife with manipulation if actually implemented, something to consider. Imagine a raid boss twiddling his thumbs at the MT while 4 level 45 mobs swing at them.

[Frieza_Prexus]

Also... this would be rife with manipulation if actually implemented, something to consider. Imagine a raid boss twiddling his thumbs at the MT while 4 level 45 mobs swing at them.

Keep in mind that proximity aggro also worked on live when this was in effect. If a mob ran, it would also engage another player. This is why AoE groups would have everyone's HP drop at the same time when pulls went bad. It's also why you could salvage a missed stun cycle on occasion.

In your example, the boss would go to whoever is next on the aggro list and start eating the raid.

[Aeolwind]

I wanted to add this to the recollection, and make it a bit more complex.

The 4 mob limit was per player on aggro list. Thus if 6 gob had 6 players on their aggro list all 6 could hit any PC they chose up to and including all 6 on one PC. So, when you trained out of Guk, if you were solo, you wouldn't have a bad one. But if a whole group bailed, shared aggro, you could have a 30 frog train of doom beating the crap out of everyone. Hence, you could pull more than 4 mobs to your group and have all of them in camp, not just 4. Soon as one added aggro to another PC, another frog could shift in. Healer casts a heal, ench stuns/mezzes, etc.

[Myth]

I remember this and it was still live well into Luclin. As an enchanter (which I didnt roll until after Luclin launched), I would chain pull for my dungeon groups. If I pulled more than 4, the additional mobs would run away from the group until another player was on their hate list. One of the reasons I remember this is because I was discussing it with a group mate. He thought I was crazy when I told him it was limited to 4, so I purposely pulled 6 and told nobody to assist me. I brought them all back to our camp and showed him. Lo and behold only 4 attacked me while the other 2 ran off... as if they were low HP. It was real apparent because as soon as I would mez one, the runners would come back. Once the 5th mob got into melee range, with the 3 active and 1 mezzed mob, the 6th would run away. With a group, it wouldn't last all that long with heals, etc, but it was real apparent on the pull.
I can see how many players may not have experienced this, especially if grouping with a monk who splits pulls.

[koros]

You guys are exactly right, forgot about all that

[TarukShmaruk]

Quad kiting came from pillar / instant targeted aoe type spells have a max of 4 targets, Al'Kabor line which is the exception having 5 (it originally had unlimited and still would work on unlimited targets in PvP after the nerf).

They never adjusted the mana cost though, making the spell line entirely useless :)

Also for the love of god please don't implement this I know it's classic but the sheer amount of smug LOL from bards will cause a singularity and ruin existence as we know it

[Erati]

I was just talking about this the other day but couldnt remember if it was part of classic EQ or if i had a hazy memory from some strange EQ2 mechanic

I def remember this mechanic tho and I never played a min of Luclin so if it was part of EQ it was in the original trilogy. I think though it can be exploited so people back in the day maybe didnt go super creative in ways to use this to their advantage and simply focused on leveling 'properly'

[Aeolwind]

Another caveat!

Unless the player was sitting.

[nilbog]

I reported this before, I'll see if I can find it.

Best way to describe this is odd.

On classic, as a wizard I would play around with root. If you tried to root more than 4 npcs, root would automatically wear off one of the 4 npcs you had rooted, and the 5th one would become rooted. Meaning you could only root 4 max. AOE mez and such, there were no restrictions like this if I recall.

After you rooted the 5th npc, the 4th npcs root would wear off and just walk away. Once you killed one of the 4 rooted npcs, it would come back and attack you.

So this is how I found this out on live pre SoV expansion.

I will try and dig for links also. But I hope what I said helps finding some info out.

Bump for this. This was my experience on live as well, rooting with a paladin.

[Mac Dretti]

Would love for this to be implemented. Need the hard facts tho!

I'm looking at you mighty Ele

[Exmo]

So this change kills Cleric DA'ing to AE (Chardok, factioning, etc)?

Since only 1 person has agro while the mobs stack, you wouldn't be able to stack more than 4? That's a bummer, but it explains why I never saw anything like Chardok AE on live.

[Nirgon]

Mob's ability to aggro by proximity would kill Chardok AoE as well.

[baalzy]

I remember a patch note or developer note being released at some time (I think it was PoP) where they changed something to prevent wiz AOE groups in Sebilis because it allowed them to gain AA's faster than intended but I can't find it. At some point the 4 mobs max limit was removed, I'm just having trouble finding out when that happened (i strongly suspect we're past that point in the time line already).

[koros]

Mob's ability to aggro by proximity would kill Chardok AoE as well.

Truth. Kunark mobs stopped pursuit once you got a certain distance away (but didn't remove you from their aggro list). Made kiting a pain sometime. I'm sure it's still like that on live today.

[gwideon]

I did AE groups in Sebilis during Velious and Luclin. This does not ring true from my experience. Also crushbone trains would be huge during my experience on live - way more than 4.

[Buellen]

chello

I also remember the 4 mob root limit nilbog. I couldnt find any post to support it though personal memmory only

Chiming in on the 4 mob limit attack one person. This is also how i remember , at some point it was changed i have no information about when this was though. I remember distinctly with my druid and paladin soloing having only 4 mobs being able to attack me. The 4 mob limit was fluid. if i had 5 mobs on me one would not attack but if i rooted one and back away the 5th one would become the 4th to be hitting me. I also remember that once more people where on hate list any extra above the 4 mob limit , would turn and engage next person on hate list. Root crowd control was important to control these situations.

[Rygar]

Just wanted to add some relevant information to this thread and give it a brief ressurection. Nilbog, it seems you were asking when these mob and pet limitations went in. Hopefully this can shed some light...

There was a developer interview in 2002 that brought to light a '4 pet limit' on mobs here (https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/alt.games.everquest/g5QKJH3OAuo/uhTVEksu3J8J;context-place=forum/alt.games.everquest) (it is a repost of original interview):
Is there a code imposed limit on the number of pets that can be actively
engaging a single monster, and if so what is that limit? -Istaron
Yes. No more than four pets can engage a single target. This is basically to prevent use of only pets to defeat opponents. We think it's important to have some player characters involved in the combat at times.

I believe at this point in time that code they are referring to is no longer working as intended. I'll get more to that later. Other people disputed not being able to have more than 4 pets at once after the interview.

One comment here (https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/alt.games.everquest/l0xkubjFM1I/imeA-7bP3RcJ;context-place=forum/alt.games.everquest):
Try it and check your logs.

Get 5 pet classes together, have them all hit /pet kill and step close enough to log the hits. You'll find something rather interesting.

I also found video evidence of more than 4 pets attacking at once on revamped CT in fear:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ig7k_-2B8l8

During this fight there are 3 shaman pets, 2 spectre necro pets, and an enchanter animation (so 6 in total). At first glance when they engage you can see a shaman pet just stand back and do nothing. I thought maybe this 4 mob limit was preventing it from attacking, but we just don't know (shaman could have been asleep, or a strategy to engage after the first knockback from CT).

Go to about 0:45 seconds in and you can see 3 wolves and 2 spectres all swinging their attack animation. I didn't notice the enchanter animation, he is seen running around after the videographer got knocked back (the animation is not engaged / attacking). But that doesn't appear to be definitive proof, chanter could have summoned after he got knocked back, previous animation maybe died on a riposte or something. But we do see it attacking later, which is 6 pets total.

So we either gather from this that the 4 pet rule is not in place, or maybe it had some proximity rules (such as only the 4 closest pets can BEGIN to attack, once new pets move into range, they can begin the attack as well). I'm leaning towards the former.

Digging further, we see an in length rant discussing the 'max of 4 pets' on an NPC issue here (https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/alt.games.everquest/VPPCpTdAZAk/gjSi7SQ8dQoJ;context-place=forum/alt.games.everquest). Has an interesting blurb:
Many of us have seen in excess of 4 summoned pets
swinging away at a single target - but have seen
a charmed pet just wander away from the same mess.

So, like many things, it appears that the 4 pet
limit is for charmed pets (and NPC's) not summoned
pets which were made more PC like quite a while back.

First of all, there is a lot of counter evidence in the thread about summoned pets being able to maul a single target. They point to a mage website where a group of some 20+ mages went to PoA and farmed crowns with their pets. Even claim there was logs of 12 pets doing damage in the span of 2 seconds and screenshots of them all engaged. I couldn't find that site to verify, but for now I'll focus on the 'pets being made more PC like' being a culprit here.

11/29/2000 Patch:
http://www.tski.co.jp/baldio/patch/20001129.html
Random-effects on weapons carried by pets will now behave as if the pet is a player character rather than an NPC. The change last patch reduced them to a rate below player characters. As part of this patch, target-specific random effects will only work if the target is the intended type. For instance, a weapon that processes 'Dismiss Summoned' will only 'go off' on a summoned NPC instead of everything.

It's quite possible that at this point in time, 11/29/2000, is when pets were able to by-pass the '4 pet limit' code that was in place, because they were no longer treated as NPCs.

But when did this go in place? Perhaps initially, who knows. Let's dig a little deeper, some discussion here (https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/alt.games.everquest/8smRe2VyHOo/VE92__FdUmkJ;context-place=forum/alt.games.everquest), kind of switching to the 'only 4 mobs can attack a PC' side of the argument, but I'm thinking it is part of the same code that went in:
So, if someone's neglected their defense for a long time, they could run around a newbie zone collecting rats and bats until theres a dozen beating on him, and defense will start to go up?

There was a patch a while ago that insured you won't have more than 4 beating on you at any given time, so I think the dozen theory won't fly that well...

Additional confirmation below and some potential evidence for the 'can only root 4 mobs' theory (one questions why not root more for powerleveling, but I digress):
Only 4 will engage you at once, but the others will wait. My 37 Wizard was helping my new Monk the other day (two computers and accounts), and one of the ways I'd do it was run around and root 4 mobs, then run around and use a level 1 nuke on 4 more, and then run back to the monk. The monk could then pick one of the 4 that were on me, and start beating it. Meanwhile, the roots were wearing off. As the roots wore off, these mobs would come over and stand nearby. As the monk would kill the mobs beating on me, they would be replaces from those others.

On a side note, in browsing some classic 'powerleveling' guides and dev questions, the number 4 is referenced a lot in terms of damage shield leveling:
https://web.archive.org/web/20010822063010/http://eqvault.ign.com:80/archive/arc22.shtml
They pull 4 mobs and make sure they hit them all. Then the cleric casts CH and the mobs all aggro onto the cleric. If someone puts a dam shield on the cleric the mobs will all die and the warrior will get credit.

So anyways, there is reference to this '4 mobs attacking a PC' being patched in. I haven't discovered that smoking gun yet. My theory is it was in Kunark. Basically, reading over old testimonials and interviews, the player base was not aware of what 'leash' was (it WAS in old world, but due to smaller zones and habit to zone before dying, few knew about it).

Basically there was a problem in Kunark where a tank or whatever would pull and a mob would leash. Hate list would extend over and over as it passed mobs out of range and a character got added to the list. Eventually they would get too close to a pack and BOOM, insta gibbed by a bunch of mobs. They did a lot of work to the 'call for help' function and such to fix this, but it wasn't perfect. So I think that is when the 'max 4 mobs' got added in (but just a theory).

Real quick want to go back to how this 'only 4 mobs can melee a PC at once' thing works and other discussion, link again here:
Probably because pets are mobs, and so use the same rules as mobs. Go to
some newbie or lowbie area sometime and aggro a bunch of different kinds of
mobs (use different mobs so you can tell them apart in the status messages).
Get 6 or 7. Notice how only 4 actually try to melee you at once?

<snip>

Anyway, the Wizard has about 20 mobs aggroed, all deep deep green to him.
At any given time, four of them are standing in his face, trying to hit him,
but mostly missing. The rest are all standing around, at a respectable
distance, waiting their turn. Whenever the Monk kills one of the four,
another rushes in from the surrounding circle to take its place.

A rebuttle to this:
Yes and no...

You can tow 4 wimp mobs around the zone so that any higher level that tries
to agro on you can't get into melee range...

HOWEVER... :o)

This only applies to MELEE RANGE... casters that agro can still cast on you
if they're beyond melee range, healers can heal/buff the lawn trash if
they're on the same faction, mobs with missile weapons can use them on you
from beyond melee range.

Last but not least... are charmed mobs affected by the '4 pets per target limit' even after the patch making PCs more pet like? I seem to think it has some merit, quotes from same link above (in addition to previous charm quote):
Many mages have seen more than 4 summoned pets hit a mob, you're not alone. However, several of us have seen a charmed or direcharmed pet avoid engaging a mob with 4 pets on it already. Given that summoned pets are no longer NPC's (see changes to Sword of Runes) and more PC like, I think that is the distinguishing difference.

This Trakanon (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ULXGorglosA&feature=youtu.be) raid appears to be Luclin, the charmed golems seem to behave strangely. Some of them just sit and look away, don't appear to be attacking and charm appears to be on. I also see a necro pet bug out because of this, just standing at one point instead of meleeing. So perhaps charmed mobs by-pass this 'more PC like' change and are considered more NPC like (perhaps so they can cast NPC only spells?).

Anyways, take away from this what you will. I'm too tired to write a summary right now, am happy to research any missing information further, or information you'd like more corroboration on.

[loramin]

https://i.imgur.com/o5MQZdk.jpg

Great job all!

[Buellen]

Just wow Rygar 8)

I enjoyed digging for proof in that past, but your skills in this activity just amaze me !

Keep up the good work sir

[Rygar]

Wanted to update this with some new information I found. In a recent DN bug report I made, there was classic mention of like 22 swarming beetles spawning in a trap, which double attack and hit fast, etc.. max hit of 60. Inside dungeon with no sow...

I thought to myself, "Damn, how could a puller survive that? is like, a damage potential of 2640 per round! nevermind kick/bash". Then I remembered this thread.

Found this post on graffe for an AoE guide, makes mention of the 4 mob max for attacking you limit:
https://www.graffes.com/forums/showthread.php?5883-AE-Groups-for-Sorcerers&p=121614&viewfull=1&styleid=51
soloing/farming ~ with the epic rune or manaskin its a very effective way to clear greenies. even without the stun only 4 can attack at once so if you can find a spawn of 3 or 4 aggro a bunch of others and drag them into the middle of the set spawn. there will be a lot of interrupts but should be able 8 to 10 at once pretty easily if they have around 1600 hp

Should note that the post was dated 12/1/2001, so pretty decent evidence along with all the rest of the posts in this thread that this should be a thing all throughout Velious.

There was also mention in some of those swarming beetle links that the 'beetles preferred casters'. Thinking on this, with the 4 limit max in place, perhaps as someone healed the puller or even nuked another beetle, the rest of the swarm not able to attack the tank would swarm to another person on the hate list? Sounds like how someone else made mention in this thread about AoE groups that went sour had everyone's HP drop at once, since the non-occuppied mobs would switch to a valid target on the hate list.

Edit: Just noticed at the end of his guide he says to remember only 3 mobs can hit you at once, most likely a typo for 4 as he mentioned this before and it has been corroborated multiple times.

[FungusTrooper]

Man this was an interesting read. This is a pretty big game-changer too, right?

[Quinas]

Rygar, cyber-archaeologist.

[Doil_Boil]

Wow this will severely effect druid powerleveling if it gets implemented.

[Rygar]

Wow this will severely effect druid powerleveling if it gets implemented.

But think of all the bard lives that will be saved!

Honestly, this may also help make PBAoE a semi-effective dungeon strategy again. Perhaps some kind of hybrid thing where you do standard pulling but perhaps every 20 mins or so you nuke down 20 or so mobs.

In areas such as the Hole where some golems could be unstunnable maybe a paladin or SK can snap agro them out and tank during stun cycle, and won't be mauled by 20+ mobs.

[Lysander]

Just read that thread about quad kiting in server chat and this was linked there:
http://thedruidsgrove.org/archive/eq/t-3946.html

which talks about only 3 mobs being able to attack you while quad kiting--the 4th apparently would run off. Seems related to this.

[Rygar]

Just read that thread about quad kiting in server chat and this was linked there:
http://thedruidsgrove.org/archive/eq/t-3946.html

which talks about only 3 mobs being able to attack you while quad kiting--the 4th apparently would run off. Seems related to this.

Interesting to digest all this and look back... that PBAoE guide mentioned 3 at the end (which I thought was a mistake), and your post mentions 3, and the original nilbog link seemed to mention 3 some pages later.

Your link:
Try not to let the mobs hit you. There is a limit on the number of mobs that will engage you in combat at one time (3), and if the group catches up to you, I find that 3 whack you, while the fourth moves off a little ways. Aside from the danger of taking damage (being stunned while 3 raptors are hitting you is not fun), this breaks up the group and you will have to take the time to re-circle them.
It sure is impressive, but not riskier as a casual quad-kite, as only 3 mobs can hit you at once (thats why when it happens, one of the 4 mobs will run away and you'll have to group them again) And if you run OOM before theyre all dead, just outrun them with your wolfform :)

My link:
https://www.graffes.com/forums/showthread.php?5883-AE-Groups-for-Sorcerers&p=121614&viewfull=1&styleid=51
Anyways, hope it helps if you haven't done AE groups before and feel free to post your own hints and tricks and/or questions and remember STAND STILL! Only 3 mobs can ever hit you at a time, don't be afraid to AE!

Link from Nilbog:
http://web.archive.org/web/20010123190600/http://forums.castersrealm.com:80/eq/Forum8/HTML/000930.html
Pre-kunark.. getting more as 3 pets on a mob was hard.. because verant had 'fix' a bug which would allow only 3 pets on a mob. (this was done for players, only 3 mobs would agro the player now, with pulling.. that was the idea behind it)

After kunark, it is no problem at all getting 4 or 5 pets on a mob.. just arder pet to attack and it's on it.

Interesting that pre-kunark there may have been a 3-mob limit mentioned, I could see long time players realizing this and never re-testing to find it was moved to 4-mob limit (or reason why some may inter-change 3 or 4 on max mob limit).

Either way, pretty good evidence it was a thing, up to powers that be if this has 'exploit' written all over it and how to manage it. I think it would be cool to implement, especially if those 22 mob traps trigger at once in DN!

[Dolalin]

True if big.

[Dolalin]

Bump for Green and no all-mage Naggy/Vox kills.

[Izmael]

I totally remember this mechanic (extra NPCs standing there waiting for their turn to attack), but I really wanna say it was added after Luclin release.

I leveled in Blackburrow in 2000 and I remember people getting insta-gibbed by the trains, like in a split second (man, these were the days...).

[Dolalin]

I think it's useful to separate the two theories in this thread:

1) That only 4 pets could attack a mob: this is pretty well evidenced for existence and eras

2) That only 3 or 4 NPCs in a train would attack a PC: not so sure about if, and when

[DMN]

For some reason I remember it being 4, not 3. it was pretty funny because they'd do default animations while they waited. I especially remember the solb kobolds howling like cute little puppy dogs. The non-attacking ones could still cast spells/use other non-melee abilities from what I recall though.

[Dolalin]

Earliest reference I've found to the 4 pet limit was a Shaman commenting on a Kunark beta spell list on castersrealm. That proves it was in Vanilla EQ but I don't see any references any further back than that yet.


posted 05-02-2000 04:30 PM

hmm u dont seem to understand. look how quickly they were to nerf it. mages get one nice thing then some troll mag post and they nerfed it a few days later. and when we ask them to fix bugs like rouge pets and no more then 4 pets can attack one target do they fix that a few days later or a year later. grrr


http://web.archive.org/web/20000511163139/boards.station.sony.com/everquest/Forum4/HTML/037240.html



(comment on Kunark beta spells list):

How many times have i been in the planes and dragon raids and was asked to kill my pet. The reason, only 4 pets can attack a monster at one time. Needless to say a shaman pet can't do anything compared to the other two classes.


http://web.archive.org/web/20000621162351/http://eq.castersrealm.com/kunark/spells/shaman/spelldescriptions.asp?SpellID=125


posted June 12, 2001 05:12 AM

Verants code is such that a maximum of 4 pets can beat on the monster at one time anything beyond that doesnt work until one pet dies then the 5 th can go in.


http://web.archive.org/web/20010711121719/http://forums.castersrealm.com/cgi-bin/eq/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=next_topic&f=6&t=004338&go=newer


posted 05-29-2000 04:45 AM

The max 4 pets aint that big of a problem on Dragon raids.
Pets will get Feared so usually only 4 can attack anyways ... and atleast on Nagafen raids pets are a little help and cost nothing to have up.
There probaly is a chance on Vox raids that pets get feared down in the traps .. but on all Dragon raids I been to, that havn't happend.
I guess on the new dragons Feared and Blinded pets could cause dumb trains.
But I can't really see why not bring pets to dragon raids. They will add extra dmg, and the will try to bash Vox to interupt her heal (Well .. that worked before they upgraded her Channeling).
So like the other poster said, if your guild ain't liking your pet, find an other guild.

http://web.archive.org/web/20010123184000/http://forums.castersrealm.com/eq/Forum8/HTML/000530.html

[Glasken]

This is amazing. I do recall this effect when pulling in open areas, and once four had agroed any additions would path away (still running) as if they were affected by flash of light. Once party members got on the hate list, or if one of the 4 that were on me were killed, others from the pull would rush to fight.

I'm not sure I can add more data than has been shared here, and that set of posts by Rygar was a very interesting read. I appreciate what the community is doing to bring this launch back from the past!

[Dolalin]

I found more evidence of this 4-mob limit in the eqbards mailing list:


Message ID: 14242
Date: Thu Feb 3 18:02:03 GMT 2000
Author: kim@stormhaven.org
Subject: RE: How Lullaby used to be.


On Thu, 3 Feb 2000, Mike Roach wrote:
>
> my younger years, I remember when Lullabye was useful too. I also remember
> when they changed it so that it would only affect at most 4 mobs instead of
> as many as were in the song radius. Ahhh the good old days.

That's an urban myth. Here's a snippet from my test in
Mistmoore:

[Fri Jan 28 01:34:08 2000] Tormanth begins to cast a spell.
[Fri Jan 28 01:34:08 2000] Your target resisted the Kelin`s Lucid Lullaby spell.
[Fri Jan 28 01:34:08 2000] Your target has resisted your attempt to mesmerize it.
[Fri Jan 28 01:34:08 2000] a dark ritualist's head nods.
[Fri Jan 28 01:34:09 2000] a dark ritualist pet's head nods. (1)
[Fri Jan 28 01:34:09 2000] Your target resisted the Kelin`s Lucid Lullaby spell.
[Fri Jan 28 01:34:09 2000] Your target has resisted your attempt to mesmerize it.
[Fri Jan 28 01:34:09 2000] a shadowy scribe's head nods.
[Fri Jan 28 01:34:09 2000] a flouting gargoyle's head nods. (2)
[Fri Jan 28 01:34:09 2000] a leering gargoyle's head nods. (3)
[Fri Jan 28 01:34:09 2000] Your target has resisted your attempt to mesmerize it.
[Fri Jan 28 01:34:09 2000] a glyphed sentry's head nods.
[Fri Jan 28 01:34:09 2000] a glyphed sentry's head nods. (4)
[Fri Jan 28 01:34:09 2000] a glyphed sentry's head nods. (5)
[Fri Jan 28 01:34:09 2000] Tormanth's casting is interrupted!

I've numbered the successful nods. As you can see, there are
5 of them. Not to mention 10 mobs in the area of effect.

What Verant changed was limit the number of mobs that would
simultaneously attack you. Only 4 mobs will attack you at
once. Others that have aggroed on you will either not move
(thus staying out of range), or not attack (if they are
already in range), or if there's another target they'll attack
that instead. As a result, it's more difficult to get more
than 4 mobs within range of a song at once if you're alone
(it's really easy if you're grouped or in a crowd of players).

From what I've seen, I also think if none of the mobs are
actually attacking you (i.e. you're outrunning them), then
there is no limit to the number of mobs that can chase you.
But once they get within attack range, you'll only get
attacked by four at a time.

--
John H. Kim
kim@...

https://github.com/dbsanfte/eq-archives/blob/master/mailing-lists/eqbards/14242.json
https://github.com/dbsanfte/eq-archives/blob/master/mailing-lists/eqbards/html/14242.html

[7thGate]

If this is implemented, I look forward to attempting to 6 man Vindi by sticking 4 green giants on each person prior to engage and using group CHeal while he stands there unable to attack anything. Avatar of War may also work with the same setup and a lot of Wort Pots.

I am....not sure this is a good idea. It will definitely mix things up a lot if done though.

[Izmael]

Implementing this takes away the danger from swarming and training.

Please don't make P99 any easier than it already is.

[Dolalin]

If this is implemented, I look forward to attempting to 6 man Vindi by sticking 4 green giants on each person prior to engage and using group CHeal while he stands there unable to attack anything. Avatar of War may also work with the same setup and a lot of Wort Pots.

I am....not sure this is a good idea. It will definitely mix things up a lot if done though.

Similar thread here:
https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=336657

The coding seems to have been that in the above situation you describe, Vindi / AoW would run away (back to his spawn point perhaps?)

But anyway he'd summon you one by one as soon as you started damaging him so there goes that theory.

[7thGate]

I'm pretty sure I would walk to his spawn point while getting hit by 4 green giants. From what I understand, the behavior being described here is that as long as 4 things are attacking you, a 5th thing you aggro doesn't but instead does...something else? Looks like it just waits around from the descriptions here.

Be careful how this is implemented if it is implemented. As long as you can still build aggro and it swaps over and takes one of the four slots once it becomes higher than the stuff on you, or raid mobs are made immune to this or will run away from their spawn point and force you to chase them/summon you, then its probably ok. As it appears to be described here, this could get really silly.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2643620&postcount=32 kind of notes people abusing this mechanic, it could definitely be leveraged as described there.

[Dolalin]

No indications that people couldn't build aggro, or that mobs wouldn't summon if damaged even if 'waiting' outside of melee range (after re-reading the thread this seems to be the consensus on what they'd do -- stand around outside of melee range?)

The abuse as described upthread seems to be a sploity way of kiting a melee-only mob with less risk of being hit. Think about the logistics of the kiting though, would this really be much benefit? How would you keep the 4 greens close and the 1 big mob far away, at all times? Snare is one way to do it, but if the big mob is snare-able you wouldn't need to do this anyway. As any bard/wiz/druid knows, turning corners will see the mobs start to overlap each other and stack, then all bets are off on which of them hit you when they get into range, since it's prox based -- the closest 4 would melee you.

[Buellen]

Found this today and remembered this discussion

https://thedruidsgrove.org/archive/eq/t-2049.html

Quinan post about power level his cleric

"10-17 Unrest Yard - OMG, if you have never PL'd here, this is the place for you! I would run my cleric around and argo huge trains. Pull back to where I parked my druid and the mobs would line up to hit me. Only 4 would hit at once, the rest would wait in line! Also, nothing runs away, best zone to PL IMHO."

[Izmael]

Definitely don't need to add exploits to P99 even if they are classic.

[loramin]

Definitely don't need to add exploits to P99 even if they are classic.

This isn't "Whirl 'til you Hurl": it's not an exploit, it's a fundamental mechanic of the game.

Look in the upper-left-hand corner: R&N built this place to re-create the game of 1999-2001. If you start deciding what mechanics to keep and which ones not to, you're making a new "balanced" game ... not classic EQ.

[Izmael]

Look in the upper-left-hand corner: R&N built this place to re-create the game of 1999-2001. If you start deciding what mechanics to keep and which ones not to, you're making a new "balanced" game ... not classic EQ.

R&N have been doing precisely that for the last 11 years - deciding what mechanics to keep and which ones not to (or which new ones to throw in), in order to recreate classic feel, or at least get as close to it as reasonably possible.

Rooting dragons, nerfing clickies, forbidding multiboxing, adding /list, limiting AE to 25... the list can go on and on.

Limiting the amount of NPC's attacking one particular target to 4 would open a Pandora's box of new exploits or at least "creative-exploitive gameplay" that nor them, me or you want to see hit the server.

[Croco]

Definitely don't need to add exploits to P99 even if they are classic.

Translation: "We don't need actual classic on this server. Just classic like I remember it and want people to play it."

[this user was banned]

This is very interesting, why would classic have this mechanic? Reduce lag/spam? It seems very odd but also very much inline with spells having a max target number of 4.

[DMN]

yeah, I think you are on the right track with why they had implemented this. they had a lot of problems with people crashing and zones crashing towards the end of closed beta when they started doing all these major events that involved massive amounts of players casting spells or getting hit by spells/mobs.

i know for all of closed beta ALL AoE spells for instance would hit ALL mobs in the AoE. I also know this was changed either at the end of closed or sometimes before launch so that most spells were capped at 4, unless they had a longish recast time.

For the snarky people who are crying about implementing this on P99. Can you tell me when this was first implemented in classic, when it ended, and how exactly it functioned throughout? All the contemporary sources conflict in many meaningful ways to come to any good conclusion on how it actually worked.

I also do recall there was a way to bypass this limit for players pet that involved the pet classes spamming pet back off + pet kill. if all the pet users were doing this it would somewhat bypass the "limit of 4".