Things OT Can't Teach You

[Ravager]

And why you should level in dungeons instead of complaining about bards.

1.) When pulling casters you should run around a corner so they chase you all the way to your camp.

2.) Push.

3.) A wipe means losing your camp, and probably at least 1 or 2 key role members.

4.) Groups are harder to come by if people know (and they will) that you don't know what you're doing.

5.) How to keep more than 2 mobs at a time on lockdown.

6.) The vital importance of snare.

7.) Pathing quirks.

8.) When it's safe to heal/buff the puller.

9.) Aggro mitigation.

10.) Dots are horribly mana inefficient in a group.

11.) Pet awareness.

12.) Spatial awareness.

13.) How to break a camp and how to keep a camp broken.

14.) There's more exp to be had in less time virtually everywhere else. Same goes for loot.

15.) Dungeons are fun.

I'm probably missing a lot more.

[Ephirith]

I don't really have problems with bards who are being polite and reasonable. Yea, conventional full groups should probably be in a dungeon. OT and the other outdoor zones do have some tremendous advantages for certain people:

1. Enchanter/Shaman charm duo with single pulls, no caster mobs, and plenty of room to maneuver so my brother can learn the mechanics of charm duoing in a safe environment. Shamans can actually charm animals in this level range, and there aren't many good places outside of OT in this level range to do that.

2. Fear kiting

3. Greater flexibility in group composition: You don't need to wait around for the perfect classes, you can usually make do with what you've got while LFM

4. Virtually zero risk. A wipe and long recovery murders your xp.

5. Before the proliferation of bards, there were endless pulls that you didn't have to break.

6. Casual players can more easily drop in and out of groups without obsessing over ending the party or calling in a replacement from far away.

That said, there are so many awesome dungeons in this level range that I think it would be a shame to grind it away in Overthere... I certainly don't. But then, I don't expect everyone to have the same preferences as me.

And regarding all this rhetoric about a dungeon being a learning experience that teaches everyone what to do, it goes both ways. If you're going to demand this kind of shit from other people, maybe you should stop swarming from 1-50+ and learn to be a bard?

[Ravager]

And regarding all this rhetoric about a dungeon being a learning experience that teaches everyone what to do, it goes both ways. If you're going to demand this kind of shit from other people, maybe you should stop swarming from 1-50+ and learn to be a bard?

I agree with this too. The main thing is, you can always tell who spent 20 levels in OT and who hasn't, and it affects groups in the high end dungeons, where everyone winds up at some point.

[Stinkum]

It's important to remember that 90% of the Bard population is composed of:

1) EC mules
2) People who only made a Bard to power-level
3) People who just want to AE kite. They will quickly lose interest and quit their Bards when OT greens out around level 50.

Then you have the other 10%, who actually picked a Bard for a real reason. These guys groups for the most part and AE kite rarely. The large majority of this 10% are pretty good at their class. Either way, kinda shitty to judge them on the basis of the other 90% above.

[Raavak]

If you're going to demand this kind of shit from other people, maybe you should stop swarming from 1-50+ and learn to be a bard?

[Splorf22]

And regarding all this rhetoric about a dungeon being a learning experience that teaches everyone what to do, it goes both ways. If you're going to demand this kind of shit from other people, maybe you should stop swarming from 1-50+ and learn to be a bard?

I'm not going to say I disagree with you, but the bard at least has a reason to be in OT: massive XP. Most other classes don't.

Also true solo aoe kiting is actually moderately tricky (of course I never figured out how to strafe, so maybe that's just me). I did circle kiting and even a tiny error over the 5-10 minute kite would mean death.

This is why I dislike low HP kiting. I tried it once and it was so trivially boring.

[Yumyums Inmahtumtums]

And why you should level in dungeons instead of complaining about bards.

1.) When pulling casters you should run around a corner so they chase you all the way to your camp.

2.) Push.

3.) A wipe means losing your camp, and probably at least 1 or 2 key role members.

4.) Groups are harder to come by if people know (and they will) that you don't know what you're doing.

5.) How to keep more than 2 mobs at a time on lockdown.

6.) The vital importance of snare.

7.) Pathing quirks.

8.) When it's safe to heal/buff the puller.

9.) Aggro mitigation.

10.) Dots are horribly mana inefficient in a group.

11.) Pet awareness.

12.) Spatial awareness.

13.) How to break a camp and how to keep a camp broken.

14.) There's more exp to be had in less time virtually everywhere else. Same goes for loot.

15.) Dungeons are fun.

I'm probably missing a lot more.

I agree with you entirely that these are skills required in the high level dungeon scene of end-game EQ. There are two points I'd like to make with regards to this list and more importantly, how we got here in the first place:

1) Most players here are either on their alts second alt or played through multiple expansions on live. With about 1-2 sessions in dungeons, you can gain the basic experience to navigate a dungeon proficiently*.

2) There is a certain irony in mentioning the lack of experience of OT players when you consider that the issue is brought forward by bard AE kites/bard AE PL. You can put forward your theories why there are so many bards doing it but the fact remains that both the recipient of the PL as well as the bard are also not getting the same dungeon experience. Maybe they also feel thet don't need it (see #1).

Either way, different strats are utilized for outdoor zones than indoor dungeons and none are any less viable. I was the Shaman in some extremely effective zerker tank duos that would not have been possible in a full group dungeon crawl.

Every zone is a viable zone and is as effective as you make it. Zone disruption is indiscriminate and harms those legitimately trying to xp (regardless of your style).

*pullers, inexperienced cc and pet classes should probably spend some more time in dungeons as they stand to gain the most.

[Velerin]

Classic everquest has always been about outdoor exping for most of the playerbase that doesn't have a regular tight group. Exp penalty on death and difficulty of CRs in classic EQ pretty much pushed people into these zones. Ease of forming groups, soloability for most all classes (single pulls), easy escape from mobs with jboots/sow. Easy access to buffs or rezzes due to people passing thru. For 90% of people the exp/hr just tends to be higher in these outdoor "poor exp" zones. I love dungeon crawling but if I know i don't have a solid 3+ hour time frame or get lucky with a group already looking for another, I know I'll get better exp just killing boring crap in an outdoor zone.

[Champion_Standing]

And regarding all this rhetoric about a dungeon being a learning experience that teaches everyone what to do, it goes both ways. If you're going to demand this kind of shit from other people, maybe you should stop swarming from 1-50+ and learn to be a bard?

/thread

[Champion_Standing]

I'm not going to say I disagree with you, but the bard at least has a reason to be in OT: massive XP. Most other classes don't.

Yeah because a Necro would never want to fear kite there, and druids wouldn't want to quad there, neither would a wizard. A monk would definitely has no business fear kiting there either, and obviously we can't have shamans, enchanters, mages soloing in OT. You definitely wouldn't want like half the classes in the game to have a relatively safe and easy zone to get solo exp in.

[ncapatina]

Can we just make a separate forum dedicated to bashing bards - my suggestion would be to name it "The Overthere".

[Yumyums Inmahtumtums]

I should be clear to mention that I have no issues with bards even monopolizing MOST of the zone but as I mentioned in an earlier poll/thread, give a quick OOC and avoid certain camps (SF/FM ZL, KFC, KC walls etc...) And there are really no issues.

[Nirgon]

#1 thing OT can't teach you: that hate aggro like that is not classic

[Yumyums Inmahtumtums]

Can we just make a separate forum dedicated to bashing bards - my suggestion would be to name it "The Overthere".

Bards aren't the propblem - certain players are.

[indiscriminate_hater]

bards don't kill people, lousy players that are playing bards kill people

[Splorf22]

Yeah because a Necro would never want to fear kite there, and druids wouldn't want to quad there, neither would a wizard. A monk would definitely has no business fear kiting there either, and obviously we can't have shamans, enchanters, mages soloing in OT. You definitely wouldn't want like half the classes in the game to have a relatively safe and easy zone to get solo exp in.

Every one of those classes you mentioned can get comparable XP by either grouping or soloing in another zone: necros by charming in Unrest or Lower Guk, Druids/Wizards by quadding in FV or DL, Enchanters by charming wherever the fuck the want, etc. Bards get 10x the XP of grouping by soloing in OT and only OT, because the other Kunark outdoor zones have either fewer mobs, more casters, or mobs with huge hitboxes.

Please google the Dunning-Kruger effect and then stop posting.

[ncapatina]

Bards aren't the propblem - certain players are.

I still wouldn't mind the vocal minority relegated to their own forum so we can get back to threads about how TMO is ruining the server.

[Nirgon]

Next patch will address bard sploits and other players being more dedicated than you

Can't wait

[indiscriminate_hater]

I still wouldn't mind the vocal minority relegated to their own forum so we can get back to threads about how TMO is ruining the server.

or the dreaded TMO bard -- they're so evil, they became good again

[Ravager]

Don't play a bard myself. I'm not pro bard. I'm just anti OT.

[ncapatina]

or the dreaded TMO bard -- they're so evil, they became good again

Two wrongs make a right. Just make VP loots drop randomly off OT mobs and TMO will have that whole zone on lockdown, no more bard AOE exping!

[Champion_Standing]

Every one of those classes you mentioned can get comparable XP by either grouping or soloing in another zone: necros by charming in Unrest or Lower Guk, Druids/Wizards by quadding in FV or DL, Enchanters by charming wherever the fuck the want, etc. Bards get 10x the XP of grouping by soloing in OT and only OT, because the other Kunark outdoor zones have either fewer mobs, more casters, or mobs with huge hitboxes.

Please google the Dunning-Kruger effect and then stop posting.

So they don't belong there because there are "better" places for them to go? People can play wherever the hell they want. You aren't entitled to behave like a douche and cause problems for others because you made up some rules about how everyone else should be playing.

Google autism spectrum, find out where you place on it, then stop posting.

[Yumyums Inmahtumtums]

or the dreaded TMO bard -- they're so evil, they became good again

Lold

[Nirgon]

Two wrongs make a right. Just make VP loots drop randomly off OT mobs and TMO will have that whole zone on lockdown, no more bard AOE exping!

No more crying about loot either.

"Boy this feels just like classic encounters during PoP when I had 200 AA's, I loved this!"

[NegaStoat]

After reading most of these threads, I've walked away with the following conclusion.

People who advocate that at a certain point in a Bard's career, it is better to solo through swarm kiting than group feel that they are entitled to certain zones that support this.

Fair enough - let's break down the qualities of such zones.

1) Outdoors, 2) A normal (or fast) respawn of mobs, 3) An overwhelming majority of non-caster mobs, 4) Vendors and/or a bank nearby, 5) Be somewhat close to a player established Teleport hawking meeting site.

Now, for the casual player who does not run with a set group of friends for experience leveling, what would their safest choice be in selecting a gathering place for a pick up group?

ALL OF THE FUCKING ABOVE.

go peddle your "you should be in a dungeon" bullshit somewhere else.

[Raavak]

After reading most of these threads, I've walked away with the following conclusion:

People complain a lot.

[Nirgon]

If you don't have a Crown of Rile, it's not classic.

[Splorf22]

So they don't belong there because there are "better" places for them to go? People can play wherever the hell they want. You aren't entitled to behave like a douche and cause problems for others because you made up some rules about how everyone else should be playing.

Google autism spectrum, find out where you place on it, then stop posting.

It seems that Dunning-Kruger remark hit a nerve. I'm not sure whether your inability to think up original comebacks stems from your boiling rage, your pitiful lack of reading comprehension, or, even autism: many autistic children are vulnerable to outbursts of rage.

Anyway, back on topic, in my original post I stated that bards had a compelling reason to go to OT and other classes do not. It's not that they cannot function in OT, but rather that they have options the bard does not. You have responded with entitled sarcastic rage which you have confused for a logical argument. It is this confusion which makes you a victim of the Dunning-Kruger effect.

[Champion_Standing]

It seems that Dunning-Kruger remark hit a nerve. I'm not sure whether your inability to think up original comebacks stems from your boiling rage, your pitiful lack of reading comprehension, or, even autism: many autistic children are vulnerable to outbursts of rage.

Anyway, back on topic, in my original post I stated that bards had a compelling reason to go to OT and other classes do not. It's not that they cannot function in OT, but rather that they have options the bard does not. You have responded with entitled sarcastic rage which you have confused for a logical argument. It is this confusion which makes you a victim of the Dunning-Kruger effect.

Your desperate attempts to assert your internet alpha male status are just painful to read, but you are really making me lol right now so thanks.

[Splorf22]

Your desperate attempts to assert your internet alpha male status are just painful to read, but you are really making me lol right now so thanks.

Wow such burn. Next you'll be telling me my jimmies are rustled.

[Stinkum]

http://24.media.tumblr.com/43e696b172947f66a66e12cea89ea860/tumblr_mfm1x5H5Vp1qas5xlo1_500.gif

[Yibz]

or the dreaded TMO bard -- they're so evil, they became good again

[Lyra]

After reading most of these threads, I've walked away with the following conclusion:

People complain a lot.

hahaha

Same conclusion

[Champion_Standing]

Wow such burn. Next you'll be telling me my jimmies are rustled.

Better luck next time!

[Splorf22]

Better luck next time!

It's just funny how you think aping common internet memes scores you tons of points.

[Champion_Standing]

It's just funny how you think aping common internet memes scores you tons of points.

It's even funnier that you think anyone else but you is keeping score.

edit: Actually no, it isn't funny. It's sad. Sorry if I upset you bud, you win. Feel good about yourself today!

[Splorf22]

What can I say, I like to win. The fact that you don't probably has something to do with the fact that you can't.

[kylok]

What can I say, I like to win. The fact that you don't probably has something to do with the fact that you can't.

As a competitive person, I lol'd.

[senna]

http://31.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_ltrjw896X91qj4qpio1_400.gif

[Wiery]

It's not that they cannot function in OT, but rather that they have options the bard does not.

I don't really give a crap either way, but this actually might be the dumbest thing I've read all day.

[kylok]

I don't really give a crap either way, but this actually might be the dumbest thing I've read all day.

Check out RnF lately?

[Nirgon]

Perhaps we see why removing non-classic problems that make the game easier is a good thing now.

Perhaps not.

[Wiery]

Check out RnF lately?

True, I could head over there and negate my own post.

[Gadwen]

I don't really have problems with bards who are being polite and reasonable. Yea, conventional full groups should probably be in a dungeon. OT and the other outdoor zones do have some tremendous advantages for certain people:

1. Enchanter/Shaman charm duo with single pulls, no caster mobs, and plenty of room to maneuver so my brother can learn the mechanics of charm duoing in a safe environment. Shamans can actually charm animals in this level range, and there aren't many good places outside of OT in this level range to do that.

2. Fear kiting

3. Greater flexibility in group composition: You don't need to wait around for the perfect classes, you can usually make do with what you've got while LFM

4. Virtually zero risk. A wipe and long recovery murders your xp.

5. Before the proliferation of bards, there were endless pulls that you didn't have to break.

6. Casual players can more easily drop in and out of groups without obsessing over ending the party or calling in a replacement from far away.

That said, there are so many awesome dungeons in this level range that I think it would be a shame to grind it away in Overthere... I certainly don't. But then, I don't expect everyone to have the same preferences as me.

And regarding all this rhetoric about a dungeon being a learning experience that teaches everyone what to do, it goes both ways. If you're going to demand this kind of shit from other people, maybe you should stop swarming from 1-50+ and learn to be a bard?

I don't know if I've seen anyone make that point in one of the many bard threads, but it is a good one. Bards need to learn all the same things, and in a lot of cases their role is going to be even more critical to the groups success.

[Cecily]

Seriously, get inside a dungeon and level up. Better exp and more fun. Outdoor zones are for the exp group pariah classes like wizards, druids, and.. honestly bards until later on.

[Visual]

why do any of this when you can titty baby to 60

[bloodmuffin]

One zone. You are bitching about one fucking zone with shit ZEM.

Please post your character name if you're not a bard, so I can train you. :)

[Clark]

12.) Spatial awareness.

http://s11.postimg.org/noy8yl3oj/spatial.png

[Flamewraith]

One zone. You are bitching about one fucking zone with shit ZEM.

Please post your character name if you're not a bard, so I can train you. :)

RNF here we come!