Picking a class for real!

[Lucia Moonglow]

Okay, so I'm stuck in a rut here and really need some advice. I need to stop jumping from one class to another and stick with one.

Some time ago, before Kunark was released on the server...hell, before planes raids even became a thing...I created a ranger. Yeah, I'm a long-time EQ veteran, and I stupidly created a ranger on a server that's emulating Pre-Luclin gameplay, experience penalties and all. That was a mistake. I currently have a 35 rogue, who seems more useful than the ranger, but finding groups is a CHORE.

So, here's the deal. I enjoy melee classes more than other class types, but the problem I'm really seeing is that I have trouble finding a group unless it's a fear kite group, which I find to be somewhat tedious. I just want a normal, ordinary group. Tank, healer, DPS. The ability to solo is essentially a "necessary evil" of sorts given the server's very sporadic population. To help you help me make a decision, here's a list of classes and how I generally feel about playing them.

Melee Classes
Warrior: I actually like playing warriors, but unless something is different here than it was in classic, warriors traditionally have a hard time holding agro. Also, as with all tanks, warriors are basically 100% group dependent, so I'd pretty much be completely screwed on XP. Also, warriors have no utility, so no sowing myself, no stealth, etc. A fun class for me IF I can find a group, though. I love gear, after all!

Paladin/SK: Like warriors, but with spells! I don't know if this server includes the low-end class improvements that were made where knights can tank almost as well as warriors, but since I see a lot of pally/SK tanks, I have to assume they did. I wouldn't mind playing either of these, but again, they are pretty much entirely group dependent, so that leaves me in the same rut as earlier.

Bard: Noooooooo. I respect the skill needed to play a bard, but if I wanted to rhythmically mash buttons in sequence, I'd be playing WoW.

Ranger: I absolutely love rangers, but thanks to pre-Luclin mechanics, they're a terribly gimped class right now that offer little benefit in exchange for their drawbacks.

Rogue: I also love rogues. Hide/sneak is really fun, and being able to provide a service to my group by doing corpse recoveries is also a plus. However, once again it's a 100% group dependent class.

Monk: Meh. Monks are really awesome, and that's cool. They can also solo, which is a rarity for a melee class, so that's another plus since they don't require a group. The big drawback for me, though, is that I don't enjoy pulling. Especially in dungeons. And that's what monks are expected to do.

Healer Classes
Cleric: It's nice to be wanted. Being the most in-demand healer class is certainly a plus, and even though they're totally group dependent, finding a group is usually pretty easy since everyone enjoys a healer. However, as I mentioned before, I really love being able to jump in and beat stuff up, or at least do some auxiliary damage.

Shaman: Shamans are pretty fun, but they're large race only, and I'm not a big fan of playing large races. That's not an entirely big deal, but it is there. I do like that shamans are decent healers and they can slow, dot, buff, and do damage if they need to. They can also solo reasonably well.

Druid: The ability to port would make finding groups extremely easy, and druids have decent heals, nukes, buffs, damage shields, and they're great for powerleveling and porting others, too. Honestly, when it comes to non-melee classes, druids are a fairly attractive option for me.

Caster Classes
Wizard: Ports, yay! Only being useful for one thing? Not so yay. Being able to blow things up is nice, but I'd like to have a little more variety if I'm going to play a spell-caster.

Magician: Pet classes are certainly fun, and mages can nuke, too! Obviously, I could get a job as DPS in a group, I could also solo if no groups could be found, and fear kite groups would basically amount to "Send pet, get XP", but again, caster classes, while fun, aren't my preferred cup of tea.

Enchanter: Whew. Chanters are extremely useful, and with care, they can solo, so that's good. However, being shoved into a role where I'm basically helping everyone and not directly contributing to the fight would feel a little awkward to me, same as with a cleric.

Necromancer: Basically, I feel the same about them as I do about mages. Fear kiting is a more economical, efficient way of soloing than using your pet to tank, and FD makes survival much easier, but I'd feel so stereotypical!

I also want to point out that I very much prefer grouping over soloing, so while the ability to solo is a plus, being useful and desirable in a group takes a little more priority, as does being able to settle in and get XP within 30 or so minutes of loading the game up, as I don't have hours every day to invest in the game.

I love this server and don't want to leave in frustration again, so please help make a suggestion that I will like, or at least try! I won't blame anyone if they suggest something and I don't enjoy it!

[susvain0362]

Warriors are boring. Auto attack and taunt? And the occasional kick? dont do it. Everyones so twinked and they dont give you time to get aggro they just go all out right away.

I have a 32 paladin and its the greatest tank ever. You will never lose aggro. Pull with a bow and cast a few blinds and the mob will never get off your nuts. I dont even bother with stun unless its a caster. I dont know how blind works for aggro past 32, but so far its like an I-Win button for tanking. As long as you are on the mobs aggro list it wont run/be feared from blind. Pally gear is cheap as hell too. You can get all the Deepwater minus legs/bp for 300p a pop. For DPS staff of baton is 30/40 2hb sells for 200p, pally only. Ghoulbane isnt that expensive, Sword of the Mourning you can get for 500-700ish if you find the right person and that weapons awesome. Or just get a green jade broadswod 11/25 for 200p.

IF you roll the best paladin race - ERUDITE - you can get a godly shield that exclusive to them. 20 str/20sta, 30 ac + ultravision. for 300-400p.

[susvain0362]

Dont worry about groups. Just start the group everytime and itll be the best choice youll ever make. You are already a bosstank leveling as a pally. I dont know how 50+ is but before that youll be fantastic for sure. Anyway, so you already have a tank, all you gotta do is go to the dungeon you want and see what camps open, do some /who searched for the class/level healer/cc you want, then /who for the dps classes and you're good to go. People never make groups and dont like sitting around in zones lfg but almost everyone is always super excited to get a random tell for a dungeon group. Paladins are super fun man im tellin you, follow this advice and youll like it alot. Dont go warrior youll regret it, 3 buttons ftl

[Lune]

Ranger: I absolutely love rangers, but thanks to pre-Luclin mechanics, they're a terribly gimped class right now that offer little benefit in exchange for their drawbacks.

They are not a really strong class, but they are also undeserving of such a negative reputation. There are a lot of people who gear and play rangers like idiots and they tarnish the class more than should be the case.

So you don't like to solo nearly as much as group, and you prefer melee, but you'd like to be able to solo when you need to. Sounds like monk might be the right choice if you can overcome your distaste for pulling.

If you are having a really hard time finding groups as a rogue, you may need to do a bit more research on where to go, or put more effort into relationships. Find out where people your level are, or send tells and make your own group.

[myriverse]

I'm a complete slacker, but I've found it quite cheap and easy to twink my main warrior and solo her entirely to about 30th level. Not quickly, mind you, but easily. So, don't believe that propaganda about them being 100% group dependent. You don't need top gear to be effective, and there's a lot of great gear that's not that expensive.

And if some people won't let you build aggro, screw 'em.

But Pallies and SKs are great, and aren't nearly as group dependent. I do miss having lifetaps.

[Thulack]

By your reactions to each class sounds like you need to play another game.

[citizen1080]

Shaman at 60 is arguably the best solo class in game along with enchanter and necro.

As far as enchanter not directly contributing. With a charmed pet you do more dps than any person in the group. With a good pet sometimes I do more dps than the group combined. That is along with providing great buffs and cc to group. But it is not a lazy mans class. Same as bard

[Lucia Moonglow]

Warriors are boring. Auto attack and taunt? And the occasional kick? dont do it. Everyones so twinked and they dont give you time to get aggro they just go all out right away.

I have a 32 paladin and its the greatest tank ever. You will never lose aggro. Pull with a bow and cast a few blinds and the mob will never get off your nuts. I dont even bother with stun unless its a caster. I dont know how blind works for aggro past 32, but so far its like an I-Win button for tanking. As long as you are on the mobs aggro list it wont run/be feared from blind. Pally gear is cheap as hell too. You can get all the Deepwater minus legs/bp for 300p a pop. For DPS staff of baton is 30/40 2hb sells for 200p, pally only. Ghoulbane isnt that expensive, Sword of the Mourning you can get for 500-700ish if you find the right person and that weapons awesome. Or just get a green jade broadswod 11/25 for 200p.

IF you roll the best paladin race - ERUDITE - you can get a godly shield that exclusive to them. 20 str/20sta, 30 ac + ultravision. for 300-400p.

I may choose paladin, then. That sounds like it might work well for me. What's your opinion on shadow knights? I have a 28 SK that would help me avoid trudging through some of the early levels.

[Rangers] are not a really strong class, but they are also undeserving of such a negative reputation. There are a lot of people who gear and play rangers like idiots and they tarnish the class more than should be the case.

So you don't like to solo nearly as much as group, and you prefer melee, but you'd like to be able to solo when you need to. Sounds like monk might be the right choice if you can overcome your distaste for pulling.

If you are having a really hard time finding groups as a rogue, you may need to do a bit more research on where to go, or put more effort into relationships. Find out where people your level are, or send tells and make your own group.

Well, I have a 46 ranger, and my biggest irk with them is that they receive that nasty experience penalty without much to show for it.

I'm a complete slacker, but I've found it quite cheap and easy to twink my main warrior and solo her entirely to about 30th level. Not quickly, mind you, but easily. So, don't believe that propaganda about them being 100% group dependent. You don't need top gear to be effective, and there's a lot of great gear that's not that expensive.

And if some people won't let you build aggro, screw 'em.

But Pallies and SKs are great, and aren't nearly as group dependent. I do miss having lifetaps.

Another plus for paladin, then! I actually have an SK that I started leveling up but then stopped on. I may go back to her if that's the case.

By your reactions to each class sounds like you need to play another game.

Thanks! It's handy when people just come right out and demonstrate why I should completely disregard their opinion like that. Much appreciated!

Shaman at 60 is arguably the best solo class in game along with enchanter and necro.

As far as enchanter not directly contributing. With a charmed pet you do more dps than any person in the group. With a good pet sometimes I do more dps than the group combined. That is along with providing great buffs and cc to group. But it is not a lazy mans class. Same as bard

True, though I would live with the constant fear of being eaten by my pet when it breaks charm.


Lots of input so far. I find myself leaning towards either Paladin or SK, MAYBE warrior? The agro thing is meh...Shaman maybe, too. Still deciding, but thank you to everyone that's provided useful input so far!

[Thulack]

Your problem is you think about all the negatives that a class brings instead of thinking of the good things. Your basically talked down every class in the game in 1 way or another why would i not say that EQ doesnt sound like a game you would enjoy if you thought of each class exactly how you wrote it out. No class is perfect all classes have a downside you just have to choose which perks you actually like about the class and live with the negatives. I played a halfling ranger on live from 2003 to 2012 dont have to tell me about people giving you shit or having downsides of a toon. Also my main here is a 50 ranger.

[Lucia Moonglow]

Your problem is you think about all the negatives that a class brings instead of thinking of the good things. Your basically talked down every class in the game in 1 way or another why would i not say that EQ doesnt sound like a game you would enjoy if you thought of each class exactly how you wrote it out. No class is perfect all classes have a downside you just have to choose which perks you actually like about the class and live with the negatives. I played a halfling ranger on live from 2003 to 2012 dont have to tell me about people giving you shit or having downsides of a toon. Also my main here is a 50 ranger.

I started my ranger in 1999 and eventually reached level 80 with over a thousand AAs before I quit, so I have some insight into how the class has evolved, what the downsides were, and where things got balanced out. You don't need to defend rangers to me, they're my favorite class. Rangers and Warriors both got shafted when the game came out because, at the time, the concept of MMO class dynamics were still unknown.

For Warriors, the Taunt skill really doesn't work like it should, and it wasn't until weapons like the Blade of Carnage and the Berate/Incite/etc. skill line that Warriors became viable threat generators. Paladins and SKs can generate instant agro, while warriors need time to build agro. That would be fine if warriors brought something to the table to offset that, like a ton more HP or significantly higher damage mitigation, but they don't.

For Rangers, they couldn't adequately fulfill any of the group roles sufficiently enough most of the time. They were good DPS, but still not as good as warriors, monks, or rogues. They could snare, but then so could druids, and the latter could also work as a backup healer. It wasn't until things like double archery damage, autofire (to prevent DPS clipping), and ranger-specific buffs were brought into the game that rangers really found a valuable role in groups. Up until Luclin and beyond, a Ranger was basically the person you grabbed if you had a spare slot and nobody else was available.

Maybe you missed it, but the entire point of giving my take on the classes was so that someone could step in and say "Hold on! You're wrong, this is why <insert class here> is actually really fun!"

The response to my interpretation of how classes work should be "here's where you're wrong", not "If you don't like it, go play something else."

[Lune]

If you found the ranger exp penalty offputting and unnecessary, you're not going to find much respite as a paladin or SK. You've got none of the dps of a monk and roughly similar sturdiness, though you do have snap agro and some minor utility. You can solo but the experience will be absolutely terrible after 45ish, depending on your gear.

Not many paladins and shadow knights make it past 45.

[eqravenprince]

Sounds like Monk is your class... least negative of the bunch. Pulling isn't that big of a deal, you might end up liking it.

[mtb tripper]

bill murray comes outta the sand

[Lucia Moonglow]

Very well, then.

I shall try monk. It sounds like fun, minus the pulling....maybe pulling will grow on me.

[fishingme]

By your reactions to each class sounds like you need to play another game.

+1 Reading through his post I want to suggest the thane or skald on DAOC

[fishingme]

If pulling doesn't turn out to be your thing with the monk. I suggest paladin, they do have the terrible xp penalty but they're really cool with ghoulbane and some decent armor which is all pretty easy to get. I'm unsure about shadowknights, but id probably take a look at them too. I do know at about 30-35+ or so, they can start looking pretty cool.

[Splorf22]

By your reactions to each class sounds like you need to play another game.

Everything about your post is negative. You don't want to do any real work like pulling or casting bard songs. You don't want to play a large race. You don't want to play a popular class. You don't want to play classes that can't solo well. You don't want to play support classes.

Quite a bit of your post is wrong: enchanters are fantastic solo and much more than a support class. Shadowknights can solo just fine. Warriors can solo adequately. Rangers aren't great, but they aren't nearly as bad as people make them out to be. Necros are about much more than fearkiting.

Most of the EQ classes are flawed in some way by design. That's what makes it cool; you make friends who can cover your weaknesses.

[Lucia Moonglow]

Everything about your post is negative. You don't want to do any real work like pulling or casting bard songs. You don't want to play a large race. You don't want to play a popular class. You don't want to play classes that can't solo well. You don't want to play support classes.

Quite a bit of your post is wrong: enchanters are fantastic solo and much more than a support class. Shadowknights can solo just fine. Warriors can solo adequately. Rangers aren't great, but they aren't nearly as bad as people make them out to be. Necros are about much more than fearkiting.

Most of the EQ classes are flawed in some way by design. That's what makes it cool; you make friends who can cover your weaknesses.

Thank you.

I understand my post is negative, it's because it's coming from a point where I'm feeling disenfranchised. I'm more hoping for more people like you to come along and encourage me by telling me that I'm wrong and why, I guess...

[spoils]

I made the mistake of playing toons guilds said they needed instead of what I really wanted to play...then main switched a ton of times over time as guild needs changed...

Now I'm playing what I want and am in a guild that appreciates the player behind the screen.

I wasted 2 years of altwhoring to figure this out.

Tl:dr; play what u like the most regardless of opinions. If u dont like any classes then find another game?

[YendorLootmonkey]

Thank you.

I understand my post is negative, it's because it's coming from a point where I'm feeling disenfranchised. I'm more hoping for more people like you to come along and encourage me by telling me that I'm wrong and why, I guess...

Every class has its pros or cons... otherwise all the min-maxers here would be playing the class with the least cons and the most pros. The advantage we have here is knowing ahead of time what those pros/cons are, instead of finding out after you have an investment in your character that "Oh shit, I'm useless!" like we found out after Kunark release (keep in mind rangers were seen as fucking awesome pre-Kunark because we could actually tank and no one knew about the hybrid xp penalty.) and had to wait until Luclin to feel useful again.

If the timeline is followed correctly and Velious is the last era, we all know that monks were OP in Velious to the point where they had to have their damage mitigation/avoidance nerfed... but if I recall correctly that didn't happen until after Velious. That was their ranger version of Luclin. But yeah, you need to learn pulling/splitting because that's part of the usefulness of monks.

[gotrocks]

roll an iksar shaman.

You don't have to be fat, you're (sort of) unique because everyone thinks iksar shammys suck w/o jbb (they dont), you can melee, you can even tank to some extent with your slows, you can root rot, kite, use your pet, heal people, buff people to insane levels, haste, oh and canni dancing means you basically never stop killing.

plus, as an iksar shaman, you get (imo) the fastest leveling track in the game group/solo: FoB -> kurns around 13-14 -> WW around 24 -> highkeep at 33ish - > low 40's go to com and have epic by 52.

this means ALL of your leveling spots except ONE are within arms reach of cabilis, which, btw, has every vendorable shaman spell in the game conveniently located around the city (instead of having to run all over the place to get some of the harder to get ones).

theres a reason shamans are so popular! And come velious when you can wear all the cool plate stuff you're unstoppable.

do it. you'll be happy you did!

[citizen1080]

roll an iksar shaman.

You don't have to be fat, you're (sort of) unique because everyone thinks iksar shammys suck w/o jbb (they dont), you can melee, you can even tank to some extent with your slows, you can root rot, kite, use your pet, heal people, buff people to insane levels, haste, oh and canni dancing means you basically never stop killing.

plus, as an iksar shaman, you get (imo) the fastest leveling track in the game group/solo: FoB -> kurns around 13-14 -> WW around 24 -> highkeep at 33ish - > low 40's go to com and have epic by 52.

this means ALL of your leveling spots except ONE are within arms reach of cabilis, which, btw, has every vendorable shaman spell in the game conveniently located around the city (instead of having to run all over the place to get some of the harder to get ones).

theres a reason shamans are so popular! And come velious when you can wear all the cool plate stuff you're unstoppable.

do it. you'll be happy you did!

qft

[Pringles]

After many many many alts myself (I have 0 level 60 toons, best ive done is mid to upper 50s on a few different classes.... and I've been here since mid 2010), I've finally settled on shaman as well. I've been Enchanter, Monk, Bard, Cleric, Necro, and numerous low level alts...... play whatever you enjoy. I have enjoyed them all, but so far shaman feels the best fit...... and I kept putting off shaman because I was a shaman / monk duo on live and swore I'd avoid both here, failed horribly at that :)

[Alovia]

Ranger =)

[Clark]

Shaman at 60 is arguably the best solo class in game along with enchanter and necro.

As far as enchanter not directly contributing. With a charmed pet you do more dps than any person in the group. With a good pet sometimes I do more dps than the group combined. That is along with providing great buffs and cc to group. But it is not a lazy mans class. Same as bard

+1

[webrunner5]

I really would not call a Shaman a lazy mans class either. They are really busy if you are the only healer in a group, and even solo they are swapping out spells a lot, even more in groups. And Cani keeps you always busy. But yes a great class for both grouping and solo.

When Velious comes out you will be very glad you rolled one. :D

[DrKvothe]

You're not really going to be a very successful soloer if you're meleeing, unless you're twinked to the gills. Even people who point to monk may be thinking of a pretty severely twinked monk.

I'll break down the possibilities that I think you'll like:
melee soloers: monk and semi-twink shaman. semi-twink shaman means pulling with drowsy, dotting, and wailing away with a huge 2h, like poison wind censor. pretty darn effective.

melee groupers: monk as mentioned, and bard. Bard allows you to melee a bit in groups, and when you can't find a group you can find a kiting partner and level faster than anyone in the game. Keeping 3 songs up isn't really that challenging, and most classes end up pressing the same 3 buttons.

pet casters: druid, mage and enchanter. Your pet, at least, will be able to engage the mob and fck it up. An enchanter with a rogue npc charmed is a godly phs dmg dpser in groups.

If I had to narrow em down further, I think you'd like the melee shaman, monk, or druid best. Druid is a good choice because you can always port whore for cash, and that cash would go a long way toward twinking a melee dpser.

[Elements]

Warriors can overcome pretty much all of their shortcomings on this server. If you are looking to group someone should be able to root. Get the mobs rooted and stand closest for 100% proximity agro. GG you just overcame your threat issues while preventing runners at the same time. You can also obtain rechargable agro clickies. I carry bags full of these on my war allowing for snap agro and some clutch CC in a pinch. That said warriors are hugely gear dependant and are probably not ideal to play up to 60 for your first class. Doable but not ideal. Warriors also get invis clickies, tash sticks, snare whip, and for mobilization get jboots, ot hammer and wc cap like everyone else at high level. With fungi and some decent haste/weapons warriors can solo into the 50s at a decent pace and slower beyond that. Bring bandaids.

My recomendation to you would be the SK. Less gear dependant to group up to 60. Has the ability to solo up to 60 (may be quite slow). Probably has a bit more potential to solo cash camps than a warrior at high level. Harder timefinding groups than warriors due to xp penalty being shared by the group. But you get access to all the tricks from spells rather than clickies and expensive gear.

Either are viable but sk would be able to solo a few mobs while looking for a group easier than a non twinked warrior.

Edit: I really cannot express enough love for the warrior. Depending on what your goals are in game you can also access hide and sneak, allowing for sneak pulling in some areas. This is probably the one area that an SK will always outshine a warrior: pulling. Dont forget warriors also get access to a slow procing 2 hander adding even more utility to their kit. Oh and did I mention stun? 55+ kick stuns. If you see a caster/healer casting, spin around and kick him in the back for 100% chanceto interrupt. Done correctly you can lock down a low hp mob trying to heal or spare yourself that 800+ hp nuke to the face.

Sure all warriors get baseline is kick and and taunt but they have huge potential late game.

[Lucia Moonglow]

Thanks again for all the input.

Shaman sounds tempting but I reeeeeally don't like relying entirely on mana, which is why I'm real big on melee classes.

My monk is only level 9, but I do enjoy it quite a bit. Funny thing is I did make a shaman but didn't play her much before hopping over to the monk.

I won't be deleting my ranger anytime soon (even though I want the name, damn it!) as I am holding out hopes that after Velious has been out a while, the server developers may look into making their own "classic-themed" expansions, sort of a "the way it should have been" type deal.

Certainly, if monk becomes boring or I can't get used to pulling, I will try shaman!

[Splorf22]

warriors have huge potential late game.

No argument from me there, but the road is long. Aside from leveling up to 60, you have the most gear dependent class in the game, and most of the gear you need is difficult to get without joining TMO.

I spent 1 million pp just getting weapons.

[fishingme]

No argument from me there, but the road is long. Aside from leveling up to 60, you have the most gear dependent class in the game, and most of the gear you need is difficult to get without joining TMO.

I spent 1 million pp just getting weapons.

Easy fix, break up with gf, join TMO, batphone for a month, leave tmo, and then join the guild that you wanted to join in the first place. Find new girlfriend.

[eqravenprince]

You're not really going to be a very successful soloer if you're meleeing, unless you're twinked to the gills. Even people who point to monk may be thinking of a pretty severely twinked monk.


I played an untwinked Monk from Qeynos up to my current level of 49. Soloed 99% of the time with zero downtime unless you consider binding wound downtime.

[Elements]

No argument from me there, but the road is long. Aside from leveling up to 60, you have the most gear dependent class in the game, and most of the gear you need is difficult to get without joining TMO.

I spent 1 million pp just getting weapons.

I think there are a few guilds around capable of doing the warrior epic. A couple pieces like the green scale and spiroc wingblade can be bought/MQd. And cobalt is overrated ).

[Splorf22]

I think there are a few guilds around capable of doing the warrior epic. A couple pieces like the green scale and spiroc wingblade can be bought/MQd. And cobalt is overrated ).

Green scales are 400k and even if you can afford those the epic isn't enough; you really need a good proccing offhand. I'm sure you can get by without the cobalt bp/greaves and the crown of rile (certainly my iksar warrior manges) but they seem like a pretty decent upgrade to me.

[Elements]

Green scales are 400k and even if you can afford those the epic isn't enough; you really need a good proccing offhand. I'm sure you can get by without the cobalt bp/greaves and the crown of rile (certainly my iksar warrior manges) but they seem like a pretty decent upgrade to me.


Wow didnt know green scales had jumped up so much. Why does one need a proccing offhand?

[Rhambuk]

Warriors are boring. Auto attack and taunt? And the occasional kick? dont do it. Everyones so twinked and they dont give you time to get aggro they just go all out right away.

I have a 32 paladin and its the greatest tank ever.

Warriors are so much more than that.

and paladins....well everquest would be better off if they were never implemented

[Splorf22]

Wow didnt know green scales had jumped up so much. Why does one need a proccing offhand?

Well in my opinion threat generation is the achilles heel of the warrior class and anything you can do to improve it will yield large dividends. My sperglord calculator suggests that Sakuragi's epic/shissar combo is 80 hate/sec, while the epic/epic is 67 hate/sec - a huge 20% improvement.

And arguably the difference is even larger because your threat is much more consistent. Spell hate is so much higher than melee hate that the enchanter/shaman/wizard are quite restricted until you manage a proc. With max dexterity and two proccing weapons, there is a 50% chance you'll get a proc within 11 seconds. Without the offhand proc, that becomes 17 seconds. For 90% the numbers are 37 seconds and 56 seconds. Your worst case is a lot worse.

Now to some extent this applies more to XP group/trash mob situations because you can always blow mallets. But Velious will make the mallets a lot less effective again. So anyway, obviously you can survive as a warrior without a proccing offhand. But I think it makes you considerably less effective.

Warriors are boring.

As someone who mains an enchanter I find warriors surprisingly fun. I think I'd like paladins even more, but unfortunately they just aren't viable raid tanks.

[Picked]

It doesn't get any better with the rogue as far as LFG goes. I log in just about every night sitting LFG, running around advertising it. The only groups I get into are guild groups. It's not that rogues aren't good for groups. It's just that there is so damn many of them. And they are all running around with their epic.

[Elements]

Well in my opinion threat generation is the achilles heel of the warrior class and anything you can do to improve it will yield large dividends. My sperglord calculator suggests that Sakuragi's epic/shissar combo is 80 hate/sec, while the epic/epic is 67 hate/sec - a huge 20% improvement.

And arguably the difference is even larger because your threat is much more consistent. Spell hate is so much higher than melee hate that the enchanter/shaman/wizard are quite restricted until you manage a proc. With max dexterity and two proccing weapons, there is a 50% chance you'll get a proc within 11 seconds. Without the offhand proc, that becomes 17 seconds. For 90% the numbers are 37 seconds and 56 seconds. Your worst case is a lot worse.

Now to some extent this applies more to XP group/trash mob situations because you can always blow mallets. But Velious will make the mallets a lot less effective again. So anyway, obviously you can survive as a warrior without a proccing offhand. But I think it makes you considerably less effective.



As someone who mains an enchanter I find warriors surprisingly fun. I think I'd like paladins even more, but unfortunately they just aren't viable raid tanks.

Yea I get what you are saying and I dont disagree with the numbers but for practical purposes I have not experienced it making much of a difference. At 60 if you are doing small group camps (shaman/war duo, cleric war duo, chanter/cleric/war) or some other variant I've never run into agro issues. If you toss a rogue in there that likes to bs before you tag a mob and fails to evade before a proc then yea it can be frustrating. But there usually isnt a rush to kill phs and for named you can just use a mallet charge or a net.

In raids I can agree you will shave off potentially several seconds per trash mob before the assist call which can result in saving a few minutes clear time for the planes. But again on burn targets your securing agro through clickies. And if your dps take a hit or two on trash from jumping the assist call it gives those druid patch healers something to do ).

Min/man best agro agreed. Imo its more of a nice to have then required though.

And like you said in velious things will change when fights become more about sustained threat than burn.

[Rhambuk]

Yea I get what you are saying and I dont disagree with the numbers but for practical purposes I have not experienced it making much of a difference. At 60 if you are doing small group camps (shaman/war duo, cleric war duo, chanter/cleric/war) or some other variant I've never run into agro issues. If you toss a rogue in there that likes to bs before you tag a mob and fails to evade before a proc then yea it can be frustrating. But there usually isnt a rush to kill phs and for named you can just use a mallet charge or a net.

Thats more of a bad dps issue than a warrior issue. If a wizard/rogue/whatever throws there biggest attack out when the mob is at 98% your gonna get agro and to bitch at the warrior for it is stupid...

[Elements]

Thats more of a bad dps issue than a warrior issue. If a wizard/rogue/whatever throws there biggest attack out when the mob is at 98% your gonna get agro and to bitch at the warrior for it is stupid...

Agreed. Another reason id put the proc offhand in the nice to have but not needed category. Hell you could tank with a staff of battle and an inventory full of agro clickies most of the time.

[Splorf22]

I think you are picking bad examples. Sure if you have 20+ L60 toons for Hate/Fear then you're going to roflstomp it and who cares if the enchanter is tanking 90% of the time. Or if you are duo with say a shaman in the crypt, they'll be fine if they have to tank for a bit while getting something slowed. There are only six mobs, and most shamans can solo the camp anyway. So sure, in those cases you could afk and have a beer with your friends and things would still be fine.

But let's move you to a more challenging camp, like the spore king in Sebilis (or even islands 4+ in Sky assuming you have 20ish). Shrooms (or spirocs, etc) have very high MR; you're going to need tash, malo, and multiple attempts to get them slowed. The spore king is all about dps; you'd really like to unleash the rogues as soon as possible. Your healer will be busy keeping the enchanter alive when he gets multiple mez resists/charm breaks. Sure, you can push all the responsibility for threat onto your team. But you'd really prefer to let them do their jobs correctly. Suppose you have solid dps and you are kiling those shrooms every 50 seconds. Your enchanter/shaman are disciplined so they'll wait until they can throw one tash/slow without pulling aggro. Let's say with two proccing weapons they can get stuff slowed in 15 seconds on average; with one it takes 20 (with a Paladin tanking it would take 10 seconds).

Paladin: 10s unslowed, 40s slowed / 75% slow = 20s
Sakuragi: 15s unslowed, 35s slowed / 75% slow = 23.75s (+19%)
Elements: 20s unslowed, 30s slowed / 75% slow = 27.5s (+35%)

Again these are just made-up numbers, and you can certainly cry min-max, but the point is that two proccing weapons are going to give you far more reduction in damage taken by allowing your teammates to do their job than any other slot in terms of HP/AC unless you burn some mallet charges.

[Elements]

I think you are picking bad examples. Sure if you have 20+ L60 toons for Hate/Fear then you're going to roflstomp it and who cares if the enchanter is tanking 90% of the time. Or if you are duo with say a shaman in the crypt, they'll be fine if they have to tank for a bit while getting something slowed. There are only six mobs, and most shamans can solo the camp anyway. So sure, in those cases you could afk and have a beer with your friends and things would still be fine.

But let's move you to a more challenging camp, like the spore king in Sebilis (or even islands 4+ in Sky assuming you have 20ish). Shrooms (or spirocs, etc) have very high MR; you're going to need tash, malo, and multiple attempts to get them slowed. The spore king is all about dps; you'd really like to unleash the rogues as soon as possible. Your healer will be busy keeping the enchanter alive when he gets multiple mez resists/charm breaks. Sure, you can push all the responsibility for threat onto your team. But you'd really prefer to let them do their jobs correctly. Suppose you have solid dps and you are kiling those shrooms every 50 seconds. Your enchanter/shaman are disciplined so they'll wait until they can throw one tash/slow without pulling aggro. Let's say with two proccing weapons they can get stuff slowed in 15 seconds on average; with one it takes 20 (with a Paladin tanking it would take 10 seconds).

Paladin: 10s unslowed, 40s slowed / 75% slow = 20s
Sakuragi: 15s unslowed, 35s slowed / 75% slow = 23.75s (+19%)
Elements: 20s unslowed, 30s slowed / 75% slow = 27.5s (+35%)

Again these are just made-up numbers, and you can certainly cry min-max, but the point is that two proccing weapons are going to give you far more reduction in damage taken by allowing your teammates to do their job than any other slot in terms of HP/AC unless you burn some mallet charges.


Again I'm not going to argue your points because they are valid I just don't see how they support your premise that off-hand proc weapons are "needed' by warriors. I've done king camp in small groups and like any camp your limited by spawn time. So when we extrapolate that 5s difference in 75% swing speed to the entire respawn time, how much efficiency was actually gained? <1%? And when we start looking at raid targets when you have more than one tank, and a warrior is allowed to build threat for X amount of time before the assist is actually changed to their target, again how much efficiency is gained? Further, your likely going to be topped up between pulls by a CH so did that on average 5s of an extra 75% swing speed on the mob equate to an extra CH? If not, again your not really realizing the extra efficiency. And not to mention this is all assuming you are able to maintain equal dex when not wielding the warrior epic offhand.

So I agree with you that its nice to have, and technically BiS, but not "needed".