First to Engage: Exploiting the mechanic?

[Origin]

So, is tagging a mob before you're ready to engage it an exploit of the mechanic or is it a valid strategy?

What we have happening right now is people engaging raid mobs with 1 or 2 people in the zone, stalling and waiting for the batphone to go through and for people to log on.

I would propose to implement a mechanic where a guild is given FTE based on the first X number of people on the hate list, where X can be any number 6+. Meaning: Your guild needs to have at least X people on the hate list in order for the mob to call the FTE.

What's more is that you could potentially change the X to be mob based, so that FTE is called if X = 12 for Trakanon, VP dragons, etc. Or the X can be 6 for smaller targets that can be almost one grouped.

[Luchino]

http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?t=127103

[feanan]

Ahh, one of the things I'm most looking forward to, the nerfing of the donals BP.

Never mind that there are 100x more donals bp here unnerfed then there ever was on live.

But hey, remove the compass, that shit is important

[Lammy]

sore loser much?

[khanable]

Raid stalling/kiting was at one time against the rules. I don't think it is anymore?

Unless it's super extremely blatant and you have superb fraps.

[Ele]

Tagging with 1-3 people with DA idols, discs is a calculated risk people take while they wait for reinforcements. They could easily lose the mob if things don't go perfectly. At the moment, FTE is FTE whether it is lone player or a raid of 36. Frapsing the encounter and if it shows a deliberate stalling or raid interference with a chain of people flopping FTE back and forth or chaining DAs until a force masses, then the GMs could provide some guidance on what is appropriate.

The same thing happens with mobs like Faydedar, Sev, Talendor, and Trakanon. They are frequently engaged or pulled before batphones even go out. They have been ruled in the past that as long as you aren't kiting and pull directly to your camp/raid, it doesn't matter if the raid is or is not there when the pull/engage is commenced.

There are some questions that have to be answered if we are going to get into a "ready to engage" modality.

How many people is too few?

Should we wait for a raid force to announce ready, then they can only engage with the people that are standing there at that time?

[Tycko]

It is not exploiting. Having 10+ players on his spawn for a period of 96+ hours is a crime, and we all know crime doesn't pay.

[Lojik]

It is not exploiting. Having 10+ players on his spawn for a period of 96+ hours is a crime, and we all know crime doesn't pay.

What was the theory behind implementing variance? Was it supposed to solve some problem that existed? (FYI I'm not a part of the sock scene just curious)

[Champion_Standing]

Ahh, one of the things I'm most looking forward to, the nerfing of the donals BP.

Never mind that there are 100x more donals bp here unnerfed then there ever was on live.

But hey, remove the compass, that shit is important

i lol'd

[Tycko]

To my knowledge, Rogean put in varience because he didn't want the raid scene consisting of 5-6 guilds waiting for a raid target to spawn at a known date and time. I don't think he cared about how the raid mechanics evolved as a consequence of this action.

[SyanideGas]

What was the theory behind implementing variance? Was it supposed to solve some problem that existed? (FYI I'm not a part of the sock scene just curious)
Initially it was supposed to get rid of the socking, basically. But that doesn't stop anyone from what ive been noticing.

[Fountree]

Ahh, one of the things I'm most looking forward to, the nerfing of the donals BP.

Never mind that there are 100x more donals bp here unnerfed then there ever was on live.

But hey, remove the compass, that shit is important

lol very true :)

[Lojik]

Initially it was supposed to get rid of the socking, basically. But that doesn't stop anyone from what ive been noticing.

Well from what I can see it doesn't really seem to be working, but perhaps it provides a more manageable workload for the staff, which is a plus.

[Ele]

What was the theory behind implementing variance? Was it supposed to solve some problem that existed? (FYI I'm not a part of the sock scene just curious)

Before variance there was static spawn timers. People would bring their raid forces at the mob 15 minutes before it spawned waiting for the boss and then fight over who actually gets the mob before and after it was killed. The length of time of waiting begin to increase from minutes to hours. During this time there was a first raid with 15 people at the spawn point rule. Who ever got 15 people to sit at a spawn point first would get first shot at the mob, so people would sit 15+ people at a spawn point hours and days in advance in order to claim the mob. GMs added variance to stop that and eventually did away with the 15 person rule in favor of a pure FTE rule, which resulted in pre-camping buffed raids, 24/7/365 trackers, DA/bladstopper/disc instant engages, and poopsocking for random spawning mobs.

Poopsocking paid off when the boss would reach the end of its 36-96 hour window (varies by boss, most are 96 hours) because the boss would pop by the end of the window. Then the GMs "accidently" added extended windows which randomly adds another 0-24 hours to a mob's variance window if it would have spawned in the last 15% of its timer. This extension will keep adding up each time a new spawn time is rolled and the spawn time is in the last 15%. This can result in an average 7 day spawn (5-9 days from last kill due to variance) in extending upwards of 12-14 days total time. This was supposed to be a disincentive for poopsocking, since you could no longer just wait the last couple of hours for an assured spawn.

[Ele]

Ahh, one of the things I'm most looking forward to, the nerfing of the donals BP.

Never mind that there are 100x more donals bp here unnerfed then there ever was on live.

But hey, remove the compass, that shit is important

In due time. Nilbog already has it set to nerf at the appropriate patch.

[quido]

Origin is suggesting a mechanic that ensures bigger poopsocks so his guild can win!

[Fael]

If you look at how long the new variance has been in place, it basically has worked.

Over the last 6-10 months, however long its been, poop socks have only occurred for a month or so max, when competing guilds have made the decision to try to burn themselves out in the fastest possible way.

Perhaps it will take another month for some people to re-learn that poopsocking doesn't pay in the long run.

Dolic

[Hawala]

Ahh, one of the things I'm most looking forward to, the nerfing of the donals BP.

Never mind that there are 100x more donals bp here unnerfed then there ever was on live.

But hey, remove the compass, that shit is important

I agree with this 100%. I too feel too much energy is being spent on removing nameplates from players with a skeleton illusion.

What is classic in the strictest sense of the word may not be desirable or even feasible in 2013. Another example is bard kiting. While it was possible in 1999 high-speed internet was far less prevalent, and it was not really something I ever saw much of until post-Velious because of concurrent technological availability.

Obviously another difference is such complete documentation. People can simply google anything about EQ, and over the last 14 years enough people have usually commented for there to be knowledge readily available.

So, basically you're right. There is a pretty large difference between server behavior in Classic and how players behave, and even how quickly the two interact.

[Aerar]

I do think variance breaks more than it fixes.

If the idea is to give anyone a chance it certainly doesnt accomplish this, as the most hardcore guilds will just poopsock 24/7 and still end up with the mob.

What I would propose is that for the most desireable raid bosses the GMs keep a list and guild must sign up on the list.

I would also suggest that a failed attempt makes that guild have to skip their next turn on the list, this would keep the hardcore guilds somewhat happy as they would presumably fail less.

BUT because there is only ONE server I think an enforced rotation by GMs should be in place and no variance so that;

A: people dont have to poopsock
B: other guilds still get a shot at the top end loot
C: TMO already has their stuff they are just gearing alts so they can share the love until velius comes out, lets face it they will be the only ones taking on velius raid bosses at start because no one else has gear to do it.

Boom, problem solved

[Elderan]

I have a better idea...

As soon as a boss spawns it turns that zoned FFA PVP.

May the best players win... Problem solved.

[Rellapse35]

funny thing is Red server has been crying for a variance forever thinking it will give casuals a better shot at a raid target.

[Elderan]

funny thing is Red server has been crying for a variance forever thinking it will give casuals a better shot at a raid target.

Yep, those crying for variance have no clue.

[Hawala]

I have a better idea...

As soon as a boss spawns it turns that zoned FFA PVP.

May the best players win... Problem solved.

I actually think this idea is brilliant! +1

But I would also support a huge (4-5x) variance increase.

[OMGWTF420]

its just downright sad that people are still trying to cheat each other out of this content. i dont come around here much anymore but when i do im always a little more disheartened to see that people still cant just share

[SamwiseRed]

I have a better idea...

As soon as a boss spawns it turns that zoned FFA PVP.

May the best players win... Problem solved.

this guy joined red when there was pretty much one guild. has continued to play in said zerg, recruiting every player on the server. hes also been exploiting vp as well as other raid mobs for at least 6 months now. dirty player, just naming and shaming.

[Hawala]

this guy joined red when there was pretty much one guild. has continued to play in said zerg, recruiting every player on the server. hes also been exploiting vp as well as other raid mobs for at least 6 months now. dirty player, just naming and shaming.

Thanks, but just because someone is a bad person in your opinion doesn't mean they'll have bad ideas ;)

[Aaron]

Ahh, one of the things I'm most looking forward to, the nerfing of the donals BP.

Never mind that there are 100x more donals bp here unnerfed then there ever was on live.

But hey, remove the compass, that shit is important

Indeed. Broken end game doesn't matter when we have real problems, ie double-line name/guild tag, maps, target rings, compass, spell sets, etc.

Gotta get rid of that broken crap first, so nobody exploits it.




Edit: The wild west days, when these things were rampant:

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c296/Merlin187/Aaron/EQ000067.jpg

[Tenlaar]

I have a better idea...

As soon as a boss spawns it turns that zoned FFA PVP.

May the best players win... Problem solved.

I have a better idea...

People who think this way should just play on the red server.

May the people who want to compete against players compete against players... Problem solved.

[Hawala]

I have a better idea...

People who think this way should just play on the red server.

May the people who want to compete against players compete against players... Problem solved.

It doesn't exactly have much to do with PVP, the pragmatism of this solution comes from preparedness. If one d-bag is exploiting by tagging a raid mob and kiting or something, you can just have the larger group take him out. Coupled with enormous variance, this would give smaller guilds who happen to be in the right place a much better chance at experiencing the content.

I mean if you see a TMO tracker tag something, just kill him. Problem solved.

[khanable]

remove variance
let 6 guilds sit on the spawn point 15 minutes before
250 in zone, whatever
let us all realize this is dumb as fuck
let us hug it out and unite under the flowers of happiness banner

[Tenlaar]

It does have to do with PvP, in that their mentality is not about fighting mobs and enjoying the game with friends - in their minds they are engaged in a constant PvP battle with everybody else on the server at all times. They play to compete against players and the server would be better off if they were on red.

[Hawala]

It does have to do with PvP, in that their mentality is not about fighting mobs and enjoying the game with friends - in their minds they are engaged in a constant PvP battle with everybody else on the server at all times. They play to compete against players and the server would be better off if they were on red.

There really is no better way for justice to be served without staff dedicated to watching raid targets full time.

[Wotsirb401]

I dont think the OP would work beacuse the variance of range on each mob differs soo much! Who is to say that The A team , who is very good at what they do cant take on Trak with 10-12 players or whatever the case may be.. You can't set a limit on numbers when people are fully loaded with Idols, 5 charge Soulfires, Reapers etc. People will try anything so long as you are not kiting VS and other mobs around the zone

[Zapatos]

"Q: What about a raid mob being indefinitely kited or occupied?
A: It is now against server policy to indefinitely kite, or otherwise keep occupied, a raid mob without intention of bringing it to your raid camp. You either bring it to your raid, die, or zone out. Obvious stall-kiting of a raid mob, especially in situations to prevent engagement by another guild, will result in disciplinary actions against the kiter's account, and possibly their raid/guild leadership."

It's still in the server raid rules, in Rogeans words, the ultimate authority of the server. The 15 on spawn rule is still there too.

Needs to be changed there if you wanna prevent threads like this cause people are gonna get confused when there are different versions of the rules everywhere!

[khanable]

"Q: What about a raid mob being indefinitely kited or occupied?
A: It is now against server policy to indefinitely kite, or otherwise keep occupied, a raid mob without intention of bringing it to your raid camp. You either bring it to your raid, die, or zone out. Obvious stall-kiting of a raid mob, especially in situations to prevent engagement by another guild, will result in disciplinary actions against the kiter's account, and possibly their raid/guild leadership."

It's still in the server raid rules, in Rogeans words, the ultimate authority of the server. The 15 on spawn rule is still there too.

Needs to be changed there if you wanna prevent threads like this cause people are gonna get confused when there are different versions of the rules everywhere!

We do need someone to write up the current rule set and send it off to the staff for approval and get it stickied.

Lots of outdated/new rules that have come over the past year+.

[Hawala]

We do need someone to write up the current rule set and send it off to the staff for approval and get it stickied.

Lots of outdated/new rules that have come over the past year+.

I don't disagree, but I also don't think the enforcement of many rules has been a top priority lately.

[Origin]

I dont think the OP would work beacuse the variance of range on each mob differs soo much! Who is to say that The A team , who is very good at what they do cant take on Trak with 10-12 players or whatever the case may be.. You can't set a limit on numbers when people are fully loaded with Idols, 5 charge Soulfires, Reapers etc. People will try anything so long as you are not kiting VS and other mobs around the zone

Here's my proposal for each mob and for the number of necessary people:

Lord Nagafen 6
Lady Vox 6
Dracoliche 6
Innoruuk 12
Cazic Thule 12
Venril Sathir 12
Faydedar 12
Severilous 12
Talendor 12
Gorenaire 12
Trakanon 12
Silverwing 18
Hoshkar 18
Druushk 18
Nexona 18
Phara Dar 18
Xygoz 18

Stop the stalling and kiting.

[Freakish]

I'm fairly certain my 52 monk, a bard and a bp cleric could kill vox. It would just take forever.

[Cecily]

Here's my proposal for each mob and for the number of necessary people:

Lord Nagafen 6
Lady Vox 6
Dracoliche 6
Innoruuk 12
Cazic Thule 12
Venril Sathir 12
Faydedar 12
Severilous 12
Talendor 12
Gorenaire 12
Trakanon 12
Silverwing 18
Hoshkar 18
Druushk 18
Nexona 18
Phara Dar 18
Xygoz 18

Stop the stalling and kiting.

You know what would be really cool guys?

[Tycko]

"Q: What about a raid mob being indefinitely kited or occupied?
A: It is now against server policy to indefinitely kite, or otherwise keep occupied, a raid mob without intention of bringing it to your raid camp. You either bring it to your raid, die, or zone out. Obvious stall-kiting of a raid mob, especially in situations to prevent engagement by another guild, will result in disciplinary actions against the kiter's account, and possibly their raid/guild leadership."
It's still in the server raid rules, in Rogeans words, the ultimate authority of the server. The 15 on spawn rule is still there too.

Needs to be changed there if you wanna prevent threads like this cause people are gonna get confused when there are different versions of the rules everywhere!

This is exactly what happened:

The tank engages on spawn.
-No kiting
-The mob is in camp
-Raid force comes to you

There is nothing against this rule preventing a tank and healer from initiating a raid encounter, and applying some minimum number of players before the tank and healer can engage is impossible to enforce.

I agree DA stalling is silly, but it has been proven to be accepted as ok by GM's since all high end raid guilds use it.

[Lyra]

Here's my proposal for each mob and for the number of necessary people:

Lord Nagafen 6
Lady Vox 6
Dracoliche 6
Innoruuk 12
Cazic Thule 12
Venril Sathir 12
Faydedar 12
Severilous 12
Talendor 12
Gorenaire 12
Trakanon 12
Silverwing 18
Hoshkar 18
Druushk 18
Nexona 18
Phara Dar 18
Xygoz 18

Stop the stalling and kiting.

I keep suggesting people watch Sirken's stream. You would understand why this won't happen.

Part of the challenge for a lot of players (especially on this server of veteran players) is doing more with less. Creating this list will prevent smaller groups the opportunity to challenge themselves.

[SyanideGas]

its just downright sad that people are still trying to cheat each other out of this content. i dont come around here much anymore but when i do im always a little more disheartened to see that people still cant just share
<3 Tara bro

[Zapatos]

This is exactly what happened:

The tank engages on spawn.
-No kiting
-The mob is in camp
-Raid force comes to you

There is nothing against this rule preventing a tank and healer from initiating a raid encounter, and applying some minimum number of players before the tank and healer can engage is impossible to enforce.

I agree DA stalling is silly, but it has been proven to be accepted as ok by GM's since all high end raid guilds use it.

That's where I have to disagree, as that's what the "or otherwise keep occupied" language referred to. DA stalling was absolutely in reference to that, but has since changed to a valid raid strat. Cucumbers has it right, the list just needs to be updated to reflect the current raid rules.

[Reguiy]

Here's my proposal for each mob and for the number of necessary people:

Lord Nagafen 6
Lady Vox 6
Dracoliche 6
Innoruuk 12
Cazic Thule 12
Venril Sathir 12
Faydedar 12
Severilous 12
Talendor 12
Gorenaire 12
Trakanon 12
Silverwing 18
Hoshkar 18
Druushk 18
Nexona 18
Phara Dar 18
Xygoz 18

Stop the stalling and kiting.

Believe it or not, Tiggles once had the same idea as you. He suggested it on Sirken's stream. It was promptly shot down by Sirken for 2 reason. It discourages doing more with less, and it encourages poopsocking.

[Origin]

I keep suggesting people watch Sirken's stream. You would understand why this won't happen.

Part of the challenge for a lot of players (especially on this server of veteran players) is doing more with less. Creating this list will prevent smaller groups the opportunity to challenge themselves.

People talk about this, but honestly, when was the last time ANY of the listed mobs was killed with less than the number i listed? In fact, i'd be willing to bet that the thresholds listed were never broken on this server, by anybody. Not because people can't do it, but because of the competition and the fact that guilds can't exclude people from kills.

It's fine that people keep suggesting that they have skill and that they can do less with more. But you won't be able to beat the top guilds unless you play their game, and their game is numbers.

Also, if you find any of the said mobs up and you want to try them without the "required minimum", you can still do it. You just won't get an FTE shout.

[Wotsirb401]

We did VS with 14 with the most god awful lag people were ghosting all over the place, i dont know how healers kept me alive

[Origin]

Believe it or not, Tiggles once had the same idea as you. He suggested it on Sirken's stream. It was promptly shot down by Sirken for 2 reason. It discourages doing more with less, and it encourages poopsocking.

The thresholds that i listed are minimal. Do ANY of those mobs with the numbers i listed and you'll get mad props. Those mobs will never get done with numbers less than those, at least until Velious.

As for the poopsocking reason, give me a fucking break. Having 40+ people on standby ready to answer batphones within 20 seconds is just as bad as 20 semi afk dudes poopsocking.

[Reguiy]

It's fine that people keep suggesting that they have skill and that they can do less with more. But you won't be able to beat the top guilds unless you play their game, and their game is numbers.

From what I've gathered, all this controversy has to do with 2 TMO beating 10 FE/IB on FTE for VS, and then stalling until the rest of their force showed up. You have 2 people in your guild, what's to prevent you from doing the same thing?

[Splorf22]

If you look at how long the new variance has been in place, it basically has worked.

Over the last 6-10 months, however long its been, poop socks have only occurred for a month or so max, when competing guilds have made the decision to try to burn themselves out in the fastest possible way.

Perhaps it will take another month for some people to re-learn that poopsocking doesn't pay in the long run.

Dolic

Come on. Variance just replaced one fucked up situation with another. It reminds me of Major Payne breaking thumbs.

[Alarti0001]

From what I've gathered, all this controversy has to do with 2 TMO beating 10 FE/IB on FTE for VS, and then stalling until the rest of their force showed up. You have 2 people in your guild, what's to prevent you from doing the same thing?

<3

[Lojik]

How bout just make all these guys spawn every couple hours but just significantly reduce drop rates...give some more people a chance to experience endgame content.

[Origin]

From what I've gathered, all this controversy has to do with 2 TMO beating 10 FE/IB on FTE for VS, and then stalling until the rest of their force showed up. You have 2 people in your guild, what's to prevent you from doing the same thing?

I don't want to do the same thing. I want to stop it from happening, because the mechanic is flawed and is being exploited.

Here's an example for you:

Team A has 20 people sitting at VS while Team B has 2;
VS spawns, and Team B (for whatever reason) FTEs;
Team A has a force that can engage and kill VS, Team B doesn't;
Team B batphones and within 60 seconds DOES have a force that can kill VS;
Team A is unable to do shit because 2 people were able to FTE and stall for 1 minute.

Does that shit seem fair to you? Similar shit happened with the last Talendor. TMO ended up getting the last FTE before kill, but took 7+ minutes to kite him while more of their members logged on. He was sniped by a force that was ready to engage immediately.

[Cecily]

You've been raiding this server for about 2-3 weeks. Winter isn't coming. Get used to failing with that crew.

[Origin]

You've been raiding this server for about 2-3 weeks. Winter isn't coming. Get used to failing with that crew.

I can take arguing with someone like Alarti. He's a longstanding TMO member and has been on the server for a long time. You, on the other hand, are a Forceful Entry product and have been in TMO for a few months? Relax, lets try to keep this discussion constructive.

P.S. I've been on the server and raiding a lot longer than 2-3 weeks. List the server firsts you've been at and i'll list mine.

[Visual]

Team A has 20 people sitting at VS while Team B has 2;


Maybe align with another guild and sock spawnpoints with 30-40?

[Cecily]

Pretty sure I joined the server after you guys did those server firsts. Positive that no one but IB cares about them. And it's been a few months x2 tyvm.

[Reguiy]

I don't want to do the same thing. I want to stop it from happening, because the mechanic is flawed and is being exploited.

Here's an example for you:

Team A has 20 people sitting at VS while Team B has 2;
VS spawns, and Team B (for whatever reason) FTEs;
Team A has a force that can engage and kill VS, Team B doesn't;
Team B batphones and within 60 seconds DOES have a force that can kill VS;
Team A is unable to do shit because 2 people were able to FTE and stall for 1 minute.

Does that shit seem fair to you? Similar shit happened with the last Talendor. TMO ended up getting the last FTE before kill, but took 7+ minutes to kite him while more of their members logged on. He was sniped by a force that was ready to engage immediately.

A) It is fair because both parties can do it
B) I'm done arguing with you since I can't have a logical argument with someone who keeps changing their opinion. First you have to beat TMO with numbers, and now you have to beat TMO by exploiting.

[Ravager]

Here's my proposal for each mob and for the number of necessary people:

Lord Nagafen 6
Lady Vox 6
Dracoliche 6
Innoruuk 12
Cazic Thule 12
Venril Sathir 12
Faydedar 12
Severilous 12
Talendor 12
Gorenaire 12
Trakanon 12
Silverwing 18
Hoshkar 18
Druushk 18
Nexona 18
Phara Dar 18
Xygoz 18

Stop the stalling and kiting.

Make these numbers the maximum to engage. Banish anyone who engages Trakanon after #12 on the hate list.

[Origin]

Make these numbers the maximum to engage. Banish anyone who engages Trakanon after #12 on the hate list.

Fuck, i'd take that too... :D

[Cecily]

Team A has a 10 to 1 advantage on getting FTE assuming people are paying attention. Team B is playing a much harder game. How we do things works, ok? You just seem mad it didn't work out for you.

[Ecguy]

The problem will persist due to basic economics: static supply vs more demand than live ever had to deal with or even contemplate.

If supply doesn't increase to meet demand, friction will persist and people will continue to pay an absurdly high price (poopsocking for days). Any real solution wouldn't be classic, but p99 is hardly a server with classic characteristics anyway.

[Orruar]

The problem will persist due to basic economics: static supply vs more demand than live ever had to deal with or even contemplate.

If supply doesn't increase to meet demand, friction will persist and people will continue to pay an absurdly high price (poopsocking for days). Any real solution wouldn't be classic, but p99 is hardly a server with classic characteristics anyway.

But we don't have a compass or target rings. How much more classic can you get?!

[Elements]

From what I've gathered, all this controversy has to do with 2 TMO beating 10 FE/IB on FTE for VS, and then stalling until the rest of their force showed up. You have 2 people in your guild, what's to prevent you from doing the same thing?

Not once but twice now in the last month. Quality > quantity for fte.

[Elements]

I don't want to do the same thing. I want to stop it from happening, because the mechanic is flawed and is being exploited.

Here's an example for you:

Team A has 20 people sitting at VS while Team B has 2;
VS spawns, and Team B (for whatever reason) FTEs;
Team A has a force that can engage and kill VS, Team B doesn't;
Team B batphones and within 60 seconds DOES have a force that can kill VS;
Team A is unable to do shit because 2 people were able to FTE and stall for 1 minute.

Does that shit seem fair to you? Similar shit happened with the last Talendor. TMO ended up getting the last FTE before kill, but took 7+ minutes to kite him while more of their members logged on. He was sniped by a force that was ready to engage immediately.

Team A afks 19 people in vs room and has one person killing spawns for xp.
Team B has a dedicated 2 man team competing for a raid mob, wins.

You come here to whine about losing "the game" and want the rules changed to your benefit.

Why do you think afk should be rewarded?

[cs616]

You've been raiding this server for about 2-3 weeks. Winter isn't coming. Get used to failing with that crew.

At least his biggest accomplishment on this server isn't ditching their guild to join the #1 guild for loot, like some people I know. Oh, and winning a PvP event at 8am on a tuesday that 90% of the server wasn't online for. Keep acting cocky about the fact that you are 100% irrelevant to the success TMO has enjoyed though.

[Droog007]

We're all masochists and the true currency in EQ is suffering. 2 people engaging a raid mob and stalling while their batphone is answered alleviates far too much suffering. Therefore, in this case TMO has robbed the system and should not be rewarded.

[Alarti0001]

At least his biggest accomplishment on this server isn't ditching their guild to join the #1 guild for loot, like some people I know. Oh, and winning a PvP event at 8am on a tuesday that 90% of the server wasn't online for. Keep acting cocky about the fact that you are 100% irrelevant to the success TMO has enjoyed though.

How are you if you are so relevant?

[Derubael]

Here's my proposal for each mob and for the number of necessary people:

Lord Nagafen 6
Lady Vox 6
Dracoliche 6
Innoruuk 12
Cazic Thule 12
Venril Sathir 12
Faydedar 12
Severilous 12
Talendor 12
Gorenaire 12
Trakanon 12
Silverwing 18
Hoshkar 18
Druushk 18
Nexona 18
Phara Dar 18
Xygoz 18

Stop the stalling and kiting.

This specific idea is likely not going to happen. Here's the problem. If I need 12 people to engage VS, it means I need to stick 12 people on VS' spawn point in order to catch FTE when he pops. If he's in window, that means potentially having 12+ people in my guild sitting on his spawn point for 96+ hrs so I can catch FTE, when I could easily stick 2 trackers there instead and have my raid force there in about a minute. Organization and mobilization trumps poopsocking. It takes more skill, coordination, and effort than simply planting 20 people on a spawn and spamming a /target venril autoattack macro. Do less with more and stop the poopsocking! We all know how much I love VS poopsocks, but I worry about everyones health :(

People talk about this, but honestly, when was the last time ANY of the listed mobs was killed with less than the number i listed? In fact, i'd be willing to bet that the thresholds listed were never broken on this server, by anybody. Not because people can't do it, but because of the competition and the fact that guilds can't exclude people from kills.

It's fine that people keep suggesting that they have skill and that they can do less with more. But you won't be able to beat the top guilds unless you play their game, and their game is numbers.

Also, if you find any of the said mobs up and you want to try them without the "required minimum", you can still do it. You just won't get an FTE shout.

Their game isn't numbers, its mobilization. Period. While it does help to have a bunch of geared alts to camp out near spawns, the bottom line is if you don't have the organization to get those numbers onto the mob, you aren't going to get it. This not only encourages competition but also discourages people from poopsocking.

Let's use Trak as an example. The other day fe/ib got a Trak engage with just a few people in the zone. You guys were able to get your raid force in and down trak in about ~2minutes. This took skill, organization, mobilization, and was a good kill. These are the kinds of things we want to encourage here, not planting 50 people at trak spawn and having me turn you all into boats.

Intentionally stalling a mob will always be against the rules. If you see it happening, fraps and petition. Something I don't want happening is people making calls once another guild has FTE to tag the target from another guild and snatch the loots. Leave it to the staff to make that call.

[cs616]

How are you if you are so relevant?

You mean who? Just someone who has been nothing but nice to cecily but is sick of watching her spout off about the raid scene that she has been a zero factor in. Plus, Cecily knows who I am.

[Alarti0001]

You mean who? Just someone who has been nothing but nice to cecily but is sick of watching her spout off about the raid scene that she has been a zero factor in. Plus, Cecily knows who I am.

Hoo r u?

[Brut]

These are the kinds of things we want to encourage here, not planting 50 people at trak spawn and having me turn you all into boats.
There are still 50 people sitting around trak spawn, they're just on char select instead of ingame. People still have to be constantly close to their keyboards to make it online in under a minute. Also failing to see any particular skill in "we recruited enough people to ensure we get a sufficient trak killforce online in minus 60seconds". All this rly does is encourage/necessate zerging.

[Derubael]

There are still 50 people sitting around trak spawn, they're just on char select instead of ingame. People still have to be constantly close to their keyboards to make it online in under a minute. Also failing to see any particular skill in "we recruited enough people to ensure we get a sufficient trak killforce online in minus 60seconds". All this rly does is encourage/necessate zerging.

So.. I'm not really sure how origins suggestion in this thread would change that, if that's what you believe to be true?

[Cecily]

You mean who? Just someone who has been nothing but nice to cecily but is sick of watching her spout off about the raid scene that she has been a zero factor in. Plus, Cecily knows who I am.

I wonder how long I'll have to be guilded with TMO before I'm entitled to an opinion. I've been a core rogue for every guild I've been with, including the far superior incarnation of your current one. I've been a top dps on nearly every raid I've attended over the past 18 months, you know, a raid here and there with BDA/FE/TMO and VD if you wanna count them. That's at least.. 20 raids or so. I'm an experienced raider, and I know what I'm talking about, so shut up Gilren.

[Soandso]

Lol at people complaining about TMO's monopoly and wanting raid zones to be pvp. So you want to PVP against the largest and and best geared guild instead of trying to outmobilize them? Gl with that.

[Alarti0001]

I wonder how long I'll have to be guilded with TMO before I'm entitled to an opinion. I've been a core rogue for every guild I've been with, including the far superior incarnation of your current one. I've been a top dps on nearly every raid I've attended over the past 18 months, you know, a raid here and there with BDA/FE/TMO and VD if you wanna count them. That's at least.. 20 raids or so. I'm experienced raider, and I know what I'm talking about, so shut up Gilren.

Gileren?

Also, Cec havent you been in TMO as long or longer than you were in FE at this point?

[Cecily]

I sure have been.

[Elderan]

Lol at people complaining about TMO's monopoly and wanting raid zones to be pvp. So you want to PVP against the largest and and best geared guild instead of trying to outmobilize them? Gl with that.

Oh they would lose, but it would be much more fun watching...

[Origin]

This specific idea is likely not going to happen. Here's the problem. If I need 12 people to engage VS, it means I need to stick 12 people on VS' spawn point in order to catch FTE when he pops. If he's in window, that means potentially having 12+ people in my guild sitting on his spawn point for 96+ hrs so I can catch FTE, when I could easily stick 2 trackers there instead and have my raid force there in about a minute. Organization and mobilization trumps poopsocking. It takes more skill, coordination, and effort than simply planting 20 people on a spawn and spamming a /target venril autoattack macro. Do less with more and stop the poopsocking! We all know how much I love VS poopsocks, but I worry about everyones health :(



Their game isn't numbers, its mobilization. Period. While it does help to have a bunch of geared alts to camp out near spawns, the bottom line is if you don't have the organization to get those numbers onto the mob, you aren't going to get it. This not only encourages competition but also discourages people from poopsocking.

Let's use Trak as an example. The other day fe/ib got a Trak engage with just a few people in the zone. You guys were able to get your raid force in and down trak in about ~2minutes. This took skill, organization, mobilization, and was a good kill. These are the kinds of things we want to encourage here, not planting 50 people at trak spawn and having me turn you all into boats.

Intentionally stalling a mob will always be against the rules. If you see it happening, fraps and petition. Something I don't want happening is people making calls once another guild has FTE to tag the target from another guild and snatch the loots. Leave it to the staff to make that call.

I appreciate you taking the time to reply. I agree with you to a certain degree, but i think it's a bit more complicated than simply saying "it's their mobilization". Mobilization in the sense that you're talking about is us both rushing for Talendor or any other outdoor dragon.

You've seen them mobilize for VS. One person engages and stalls, and 40 log on from 10 feet away from just outside of the room -- within 1 minute. There's no port ins, no rushing from one location to another in order to "mobilize". When VS is dead, they move their force to another target, log, or play alts. In the meantime, it's a matter of who wasn't AFK and who was spamming their VSattack macro harder? That's skill? C'mon...

Either way, TMO has the current rules completely dominated. Stop the monopoly and promote competition.

[Brut]

So.. I'm not really sure how origins suggestion in this thread would change that, if that's what you believe to be true?
Wasn't talking about OP, just saying that it's kinda silly to claim that one type of poopsock is somehow more skillful than the other.

If have to talk about Origins thing, honestly don't think it matters either way. The raidscene is/has always been full of frothing idiocy and ultimately any changes the staff tries to improve it with will be quickly distorted into something even more retarded.

[Alarti0001]

I appreciate you taking the time to reply. I agree with you to a certain degree, but i think it's a bit more complicated than simply saying "it's their mobilization". Mobilization in the sense that you're talking about is us both rushing for Talendor or any other outdoor dragon.

You've seen them mobilize for VS. One person engages and stalls, and 40 log on from 10 feet away from just outside of the room -- within 1 minute. There's no port ins, no rushing from one location to another in order to "mobilize". When VS is dead, they move their force to another target, log, or play alts. In the meantime, it's a matter of who wasn't AFK and who was spamming their VSattack macro harder? That's skill? C'mon...

Either way, TMO has the current rules completely dominated. Stop the monopoly and promote competition.

When 2 people get FTE over 12..... its not the rules that are getting dominated(FTE) its your ability. Get better! Or have your poopers be less afk

[Derubael]

Either way, TMO has the current rules completely dominated. Stop the monopoly and promote competition.

It's a level playing field. Both Sirken and I have said this. Everyone's got the same chance to compete. As brut stated above, you're trading one kind of sock for another, possibly more soiled sock.

There's been some good idea's from the raid community on how to improve the raid scene, I just don't think this is one of them.

[Alarti0001]

Wasn't talking about OP, just saying that it's kinda silly to claim that one type of poopsock is somehow more skillful than the other.

If have to talk about Origins thing, honestly don't think it matters either way. The raidscene is/has always been full of frothing idiocy and ultimately any changes the staff tries to improve it with will be quickly distorted into something even more retarded.

1 is poopsocking 1 isnt. You must be talking to Chest too much.

[Alarti0001]

It's a level playing field. Both Sirken and I have said this. Everyone's got the same chance to compete. As brut stated above, you're trading one kind of sock for another, possibly more soiled sock.

There's been some good idea's from the raid community on how to improve the raid scene, I just don't think this is one of them.

Velious is the solution. All of this is basic economics need more targets to spread out demand.

[Origin]

So.. I'm not really sure how origins suggestion in this thread would change that, if that's what you believe to be true?

It would change it in the sense that one semi-lucky, non-AFK person wouldn't determine the outcome of the entire battle. One person wouldn't be able to stall for nearly 60 seconds while another guild is ready to actually engage and kill the mob in question.

[Origin]

It's a level playing field. Both Sirken and I have said this. Everyone's got the same chance to compete. As brut stated above, you're trading one kind of sock for another, possibly more soiled sock.

There's been some good idea's from the raid community on how to improve the raid scene, I just don't think this is one of them.

I appreciate this and thank you for listening to the community.

[Alarti0001]

It would change it in the sense that one semi-lucky, non-AFK person wouldn't determine the outcome of the entire battle. One person wouldn't be able to stall for nearly 60 seconds while another guild is ready to actually engage and kill the mob in question.

Pulling is stalling... You are suggesting camping out on every spawn point. Poopsocking isn't the solution.

[cs616]

You're entitled to an opinion. However, your opinion since leaving FE for TMO has been to make snarky comments and belittle the efforts of the people you ditched for loot. I seem to remember someone comparing you to Lebron James, which is some what accurate, except unlike the Heat TMO would still be exactly where they are now without you. It doesn't matter how good of a raider you are, TMO doesn't need you to win, simple as that. It'd be like if you left the Browns to join the Patriots as a back up kicker, and then talked shit to everyone on the Browns when you beat them.

You know why I don't dislike other people who left FE for TMO? Because none of them are on the forums 24/7 gloating. Retus never did it. Fyrefyst doesn't. Yet you can't help but constantly rub shit in FE's face. You'd probably have friends in FE still if you didn't constantly antagonize them, other people who left FE for TMO still do.

Oh and stop playing the victim. You can't ditch people you claimed to be friends with, talk shit to them, and then be surprised when they get angry with you.

[Alarti0001]

You're entitled to an opinion. However, your opinion since leaving FE for TMO has been to make snarky comments and belittle the efforts of the people you ditched for loot. I seem to remember someone comparing you to Lebron James, which is some what accurate, except unlike the Heat TMO would still be exactly where they are now without you. It doesn't matter how good of a raider you are, TMO doesn't need you to win, simple as that. It'd be like if you left the Browns to join the Patriots as a back up kicker, and then talked shit to everyone on the Browns when you beat them.

You know why I don't dislike other people who left FE for TMO? Because none of them are on the forums 24/7 gloating. Retus never did it. Fyrefyst doesn't. Yet you can't help but constantly rub shit in FE's face. You'd probably have friends in FE still if you didn't constantly antagonize them, other people who left FE for TMO still do.

Oh and stop playing the victim. You can't ditch people you claimed to be friends with, talk shit to them, and then be surprised when they get angry with you.

Lol the day she left half of FE was making disparaging comments about her on the forums and in tells.

Who would want those kinds of friends?

[Derubael]

You're entitled to an opinion. However, your opinion since leaving FE for TMO has been to make snarky comments and belittle the efforts of the people you ditched for loot. I seem to remember someone comparing you to Lebron James, which is some what accurate, except unlike the Heat TMO would still be exactly where they are now without you. It doesn't matter how good of a raider you are, TMO doesn't need you to win, simple as that. It'd be like if you left the Browns to join the Patriots as a back up kicker, and then talked shit to everyone on the Browns when you beat them.

You know why I don't dislike other people who left FE for TMO? Because none of them are on the forums 24/7 gloating. Retus never did it. Fyrefyst doesn't. Yet you can't help but constantly rub shit in FE's face. You'd probably have friends in FE still if you didn't constantly antagonize them, other people who left FE for TMO still do.

Oh and stop playing the victim. You can't ditch people you claimed to be friends with, talk shit to them, and then be surprised when they get angry with you.

Lets try to stay on topic. This is a poopsock thread, not a Cecily thread. We have a few of those in RnF already.

[Cecily]

It's understandable that you'd be upset. FE/IB invested a significant amount of time and effort to ensure that VS pop was theirs. With that many people, it should have been. We laugh our asses off every time (and it's happened alot) we make your collective guild waste its entire week in that boring pit.

You think you're offering a rational alternative, but you're really just throwing a temper tantrum and attempting to get the rules changed.
(See Nizzar's thread)

[Ecguy]

Their game isn't numbers, its mobilization. Period. While it does help to have a bunch of geared alts to camp out near spawns, the bottom line is if you don't have the organization to get those numbers onto the mob, you aren't going to get it. This not only encourages competition but also discourages people from poopsocking.

Let's use Trak as an example. The other day fe/ib got a Trak engage with just a few people in the zone. You guys were able to get your raid force in and down trak in about ~2minutes. This took skill, organization, mobilization, and was a good kill. These are the kinds of things we want to encourage here, not planting 50 people at trak spawn and having me turn you all into boats.

The tactics are different, but it's still about numbers. Characters are at various locations logged out. People have armies of alts in an effort to get a raid kill.

Let's talk big picture raiding on p99. The problem is lack of content due to artificial population distribution of raid level characters. Guilds are encouraged by the system to place as many characters on as many relevant targets as possible (logged out/in whatever).

Numbers + organization + dedication or something like that is the model for success here. If you don't have enough people willing to get on at that 4am call, you're out of luck. A small, highly skilled and organized force can't statistically compete in a sustained manner.

I think it would be awesome if a guild could raid boss encounters without having a ton of alts. Is that achieved by some type of instance like feature? Not sure, but to pre-empt the howls of, "that's not classic": neither is the population structure of p99. That unique feature requires a unique solution, if the server is interested in an increased population level.

[arsenalpow]

It's a level playing field. Both Sirken and I have said this. Everyone's got the same chance to compete. As brut stated above, you're trading one kind of sock for another, possibly more soiled sock.

There's been some good idea's from the raid community on how to improve the raid scene, I just don't think this is one of them.

Velious is the solution. All of this is basic economics need more targets to spread out demand.

The reason velious is a solution is because it opens up the world for everyone to hypothetically get more slices of loot pie. An easy way to solve this while kunark is still in play is to remove VP training. This will force TMO to legitimately defend the zone instead of the current scenario where they can train an entire raid force with a skeleton crew until they decide to kill the targets at their leisure. This means other guilds will have a better chance at the non VP targets when TMO/FE/IB work for those kills. This would be especially easy to see during full repops where TMO can leave VP till the end of the night while they lock it down with trains. Without the threat of trains VP would have to be the priority over all other targets lest their precious PD loot fall into the hands of the unwashed masses.

[Alarti0001]

The reason velious is a solution is because it opens up the world for everyone to hypothetically get more slices of loot pie. An easy way to solve this while kunark is still in play is to remove VP training. This will force TMO to legitimately defend the zone instead of the current scenario where they can train an entire raid force with a skeleton crew until they decide to kill the targets at their leisure. This means other guilds will have a better chance at the non VP targets when TMO/FE/IB work for those kills. This would be especially easy to see during full repops where TMO can leave VP till the end of the night while they lock it down with trains. Without the threat of trains VP would have to be the priority over all other targets lest their precious PD loot fall into the hands of the unwashed masses.

We can defend the zone without our raid force. Been proven time and time again.

[Origin]

The tactics are different, but it's still about numbers. Characters are at various locations logged out. People have armies of alts in an effort to get a raid kill.

Let's talk big picture raiding on p99. The problem is lack of content due to artificial population distribution of raid level characters. Guilds are encouraged by the system to place as many characters on as many relevant targets as possible (logged out/in whatever).

Numbers + organization + dedication or something like that is the model for success here. If you don't have enough people willing to get on at that 4am call, you're out of luck. A small, highly skilled and organized force can't statistically compete in a sustained manner.

I think it would be awesome if a guild could raid boss encounters without having a ton of alts. Is that achieved by some type of instance like feature? Not sure, but to pre-empt the howls of, "that's not classic": neither is the population structure of p99. That unique feature requires a unique solution, if the server is interested in an increased population level.

Words of wisdom.

[cs616]

It's understandable that you'd be upset. FE/IB invested a significant amount of time and effort to ensure that VS pop was theirs. With that many people, it should have been. We laugh our asses off every time (and it's happened alot) we make your collective guild waste its entire week in that boring pit.

You think you're offering a rational alternative, but you're really just throwing a temper tantrum and attempting to get the rules changed.
(See Nizzar's thread)

Was this supposed to be a response to me? I don't support Origins idea and I've been playing here way to long to be upset about one mob. I replied to this thread specifically to respond to your snarky comment.

However, since Derubael has so kindly asked us to stay on topic, I'm going to refrain from responding any further. Have fun with your endless bickering that will ultimately lead to nothing.

[Alarti0001]

Was this supposed to be a response to me? I don't support Origins idea and I've been playing here way to long to be upset about one mob. I replied to this thread specifically to respond to your snarky comment.

However, since Derubael has so kindly asked us to stay on topic, I'm going to refrain from responding any further.





Have fun with your endless bickering that will ultimately lead to nothing.



Not responding... defined

[Champion_Standing]

I think it would be awesome if a guild could raid boss encounters without having a ton of alts. Is that achieved by some type of instance like feature? Not sure, but to pre-empt the howls of, "that's not classic": neither is the population structure of p99. That unique feature requires a unique solution, if the server is interested in an increased population level.

Nothing will ever be done by the staff. They have said many times, it is up to the players to deal with it. As you can see they are doing a fantastic job.

I'm sure that most of the people that are able to raid here would be willing to work out a schedule or the dreaded rotation, but if there is just one group of people who won't...it doesn't work. The sad truth is that being a dickhead is very effective in a game like EQ, and you usually come out on top when you are one.

[arsenalpow]

We can defend the zone without our raid force. Been proven time and time again.

No it hasn't. Training has ALWAYS been the policy in VP. If you're so confident why don't you sign a no-training clause for VP?

[Cecily]

I hate that word... snarky.

[Brut]

Would srsly suggest putting back the ruling Ambrotos (I think? not sure, the old server chat thread is deleted methinks) made at one point wherein you weren't allowed to pull majority of raid targets out of their spawn areas. Draco had to be engaged in graveyard, Inny had to be fought at 2nd floor, there was something about not kiting entirety of PoFear while engaging CT, et cetera regarding maestros and whatnot. Most every outdoor dragon is currently done via parking raid force as far away from the spawn point as possible so you can do a decades long Tal/Sev/Fay pull and sluggishly log in/hammer/ejac the raid and form groups since the dragons takes around 5minutes to stroll through their zones. Inny's just pulled to the zonein with tons of adds over and over until one raid gets lucky and manages to kill it without wiping. Actually having to move the raid to the target instead of pulling the target to the raid would look more like racing, and would potentially reduce some of the QQ about trains and sketchy pulls.

Hard to monitor though and would probably just result in raid forces being camped closer to the mobs, so dunno. I did like that the ruling resulted in one Fear raid back during BDAvsTMOraptured where both raids were clearing trash mobs scouting each other until one side felt like the zone had been cleared enough to try to kill CT. Looked way more like proper competition than what you see currently with bards kiting the zone around as their teammates smash their faces on their keyboards hoping they might drop the potato-man before everyone dies/desyncs.

Not really sure if it'd work on outdoors dragons anyway since they got a prty large pathing area, but Inny/CT it made a whole lot of sense.

[Alarti0001]

No it hasn't. Training has ALWAYS been the policy in VP. If you're so confident why don't you sign a no-training clause for VP?

They would be accidental pulls... Cause thats how VP works.

[Droog007]

Intentionally stalling a mob will always be against the rules. If you see it happening, fraps and petition...

So, TMO ... did you stall or not stall? You can talk about how organized and awesome you are for pages and pages, but the fact remains you tagged a mob with a force that could only survive, not win.

One could argue that the other force there was not too concerned with getting FTE if everyone was playing by the rules...

[Cecily]

the fact remains you tagged a mob with a force that could only survive, not win.

*cough* Prove It *cough*

I'm done arguing with people on the internet over things that do not matter, for tonight. Night!

[Tycko]

This sounds like a case for the norrathian Supreme Court to hear, I would recommend a tmo or IB rule lawyer because they have a lot of experience. Good luck in court, the honorable judge rogean is on vacation I think .

[Ravager]

They would be accidental pulls... Cause thats how TMO works.

FTFY

[Malone88]

It doesn't exactly have much to do with PVP, the pragmatism of this solution comes from preparedness. If one d-bag is exploiting by tagging a raid mob and kiting or something, you can just have the larger group take him out. Coupled with enormous variance, this would give smaller guilds who happen to be in the right place a much better chance at experiencing the content.

I mean if you see a TMO tracker tag something, just kill him. Problem solved.
+1 idea here.

Added rule: Guild loots one item from dead TMO tracker.
Raid Loot = TMO tracker loot + normal raid loot.

New Small Guild Strategy:
Poopsock TMO trackers.

:)

[Yapas]

Would srsly suggest putting back the ruling Ambrotos (I think? not sure, the old server chat thread is deleted methinks) made at one point wherein you weren't allowed to pull majority of raid targets out of their spawn areas. Draco had to be engaged in graveyard, Inny had to be fought at 2nd floor, there was something about not kiting entirety of PoFear while engaging CT, et cetera regarding maestros and whatnot.

Sound like dictatorial rules. Not surprise that rules come from Ambrotos.

[quido]

I'll be offering a dick tater tutorial this Thursday at 7pm.

[Heebo]

So, TMO ... disurviving ll or not stall? You can talk about how organized and awesome you are for pages and pages, but the fact remains you tagged a mob with a force that could only survive, not win.

One could argue that the other force there was not too concerned with getting FTE if everyone was playing by the rules...

Please explain the difference between surviving and winning to me.

[Arteker]

I don't want to do the same thing. I want to stop it from happening, because the mechanic is flawed and is being exploited.

Here's an example for you:

Team A has 20 people sitting at VS while Team B has 2;
VS spawns, and Team B (for whatever reason) FTEs;
Team A has a force that can engage and kill VS, Team B doesn't;
Team B batphones and within 60 seconds DOES have a force that can kill VS;
Team A is unable to do shit because 2 people were able to FTE and stall for 1 minute.

Does that shit seem fair to you? Similar shit happened with the last Talendor. TMO ended up getting the last FTE before kill, but took 7+ minutes to kite him while more of their members logged on. He was sniped by a force that was ready to engage immediately.
Seems fair because the 2 players where not slacking like the 20 ones. see last vs

[Soandso]

Not responding... defined

"I'm going to refrain from responding [B]ANY FURTHER" Just saying.

Lol to people who think Velious will change the raid scene because it won't.
Lol to IB people complaining about TMO's monopoly. Wasn't IB in that same position before they ran off to EQmac?

[Reguiy]

Lets try to stay on topic. This is a poopsock thread, not a Cecily thread. We have a few of those in RnF already.

Lol. Very ironic since this actually isn't a poopsock thread. It's a "TMO is exploiting the rules in place, so lets change the rules" thread. It just turned into a poopsock thread about 3 or 4 pages in when the OP had the brilliant idea to change the ruleset to benefit poopsockers.

[Alarti0001]

So, TMO ... did you stall or not stall? You can talk about how organized and awesome you are for pages and pages, but the fact remains you tagged a mob with a force that could only survive, not win.

One could argue that the other force there was not too concerned with getting FTE if everyone was playing by the rules...

We seemed to have won? You clueless?

[sanforce]

It would change it in the sense that one semi-lucky, non-AFK person wouldn't determine the outcome of the entire battle. One person wouldn't be able to stall for nearly 60 seconds while another guild is ready to actually engage and kill the mob in question.

Hmmm, so with your rule change ideas, couldn't raid guilds just have a bunch of low level bards in game, afk, playing group songs to ensure they get on the agro list?

Group 1: warrior (tracking), bard (afk), bard (afk), bard (afk), bard (afk), bard (afk)
Group 2: cleric (tracking), bard (afk), bard (afk), bard (afk), bard (afk), bard (afk)

That's 12 people on the agro list as long as the cleric and warrior engage, then they can just evasive / DA stall like normal while their raid force logs in.

[Splorf22]

Reading the type of discussion in this thread should convince any sane person that the raid scene here sucks.

[sanforce]

It seems to work well enough. And if someone can't compete, they can always farm enough plat to buy their prized pixels from successful raid guilds.

[Derubael]

Lol. Very ironic since this actually isn't a poopsock thread. It's a "TMO is exploiting the rules in place, so lets change the rules" thread. It just turned into a poopsock thread about 3 or 4 pages in when the OP had the brilliant idea to change the ruleset to benefit poopsockers.

Define 'exploit'?

[Reguiy]

Define 'exploit'?

Before OP edited his original post, the term exploit was used to describe aggroing a raid mob without a raid force present, and stalling until said force is present.

[Splorf22]

It seems to work well enough.

I think you missed my point. The rules being discussed in this thread are silly because the mobs are so easy that the only challenge is getting there first. The real solution to this thread is to make the encounters more challenging so that this FTE nonsense becomes less important.

And if someone can't compete, they can always farm enough plat to buy their prized pixels from successful raid guilds.

I get the feeling you intended this to be some sort of rhetorical shiv, and yet I can only say I'm happy that I've managed to pick up some shiny pixels without spending hundreds of hours watching the track screen or the back of Venril Sathir's cave. If that's your idea of fun more power to you, but it's not mine.

[Derubael]

Before OP edited his original post, the term exploit was used to describe aggroing a raid mob without a raid force present, and stalling until said force is present.

This would indeed be an exploit if someone stalled a mob with another force in zone.

[Reguiy]

This would indeed be an exploit if someone stalled a mob with another force in zone.

So if two people aggro a raid mob with 10 people of an opposing guild in the zone, then it would be considered an exploit? Did this thread actually just make some progress?

[Alarti0001]

So if two people aggro a raid mob with 10 people of an opposing guild in the zone, then it would be considered an exploit? Did this thread actually just make some progress?

Nope

[kotton05]

FTE won't change, but what needs clarifying is tagging with not even a group in zone then taking said mob for a ride or zoning him off. To delay the folks who are ready a pull.

Darkdeath knows better so he kills our puller who has fraps with the dragon first...

[Nune]

i lol'd

[ShivanAngel]

while it doesnt help now, will this be possible in velious?

would think mobs hit way to hard and fast to do it without a full group of like 6 clerics and a warrior... mobs like tormax, sont, and ToV dragons are in a different league then kunark mobs..

Could be wrong tho.

[Alarti0001]

Darkdeath knows better so he kills our puller who has fraps with the dragon first...

OMG LOLOL (Insert tin hat its aliens picture)

[Sadre Spinegnawer]

Please explain the difference between surviving and winning to me.

Surviving is when you get all the coconuts before everyone else on the island.

Winning is when you eat said coconuts in front of everyone else.

Comedy is when the coconuts keep rolling away because you forgot to bring something to hold all those coconuts.

Irony is when you choke on a piece of shell and die.

[Derubael]

So if two people aggro a raid mob with 10 people of an opposing guild in the zone, then it would be considered an exploit? Did this thread actually just make some progress?

No, if two people aggro a raid mob with an opposing raid force capable of downing said mob in zone, and proceed to kite the mob around to stall it, that would be an exploit.

[Peekae]

No, if two people aggro a raid mob with an opposing raid force capable of downing said mob in zone, and proceed to kite the mob around to stall it, that would be an exploit.

Good to know :P Though I know its not always called that way. Seen a wiped raid leave 1 person kiting fay for 10+ minutes then claimed loot after it was down because they had the "FTE" shout.

Loot was awarded to them too not that a darkwood trunk or w/e was that important just kinda lame overall.

[Eccezan]

FTE won't change, but what needs clarifying is tagging with not even a group in zone then taking said mob for a ride or zoning him off. To delay the folks who are ready a pull.

Darkdeath knows better so he kills our puller who has fraps with the dragon first...

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/155/594/yesitis2.gif?1311943181

[Retti_]

i prefer to be by myself, wait for guild to engage, jav faster, and let them kill it for me and promptly petition for my loot

[Llodd]

It's a level playing field. Both Sirken and I have said this. Everyone's got the same chance to compete. As brut stated above, you're trading one kind of sock for another, possibly more soiled sock.

There's been some good idea's from the raid community on how to improve the raid scene, I just don't think this is one of them.

Once RMT for accounts was banned I'm afraid the level playing field all but dissapeared. Whoever (any guesses? ;) ) bought up most of those accounts prior to the ban gained a significant advantage.

[Origin]

Once RMT for accounts was banned I'm afraid the level playing field all but dissapeared. Whoever (any guesses? ;) ) bought up most of those accounts prior to the ban gained a significant advantage.

RMT was never allowed and has always been a banned practice. You mean plat for accounts. But yeah.

[Autotune]

Ideas?

Remove variance on all the dragons, institute simulated patch day respawns once a week.

That right there would improve the raid scene 100 times over and spread out raid loot.

Especially seeing how after the first repop, most everything would all end up dad within minutes of each other making it harder for a couple guilds to lock down everything.

Not to mention the stupid fucking non-classic hurdle that fresh guilds have to overcome would then be non-existant

[Llodd]

Remove variance on all the dragons, institute simulated patch day respawns once a week.

That right there would improve the raid scene 100 times over and spread out raid loot.

Especially seeing how after the first repop, most everything would all end up dad within minutes of each other making it harder for a couple guilds to lock down everything.

Not to mention the stupid fucking non-classic hurdle that fresh guilds have to overcome would then be non-existant

Shit's classic as hell. I particulary don't understand the staffs unwillingness on the simulated repops at all.

[Llodd]

RMT was never allowed and has always been a banned practice. You mean plat for accounts. But yeah.

Yes, my bad, plat not RMT.

[Tanthallas]

Remove variance on all the dragons, institute simulated patch day respawns once a week.

That right there would improve the raid scene 100 times over and spread out raid loot.

While this would be wonderful, nothing will fix the server but the people playing on it; to the extent that people who are currently controlling the raid scene are unwilling to come to any terms with eachother and the server as a whole, this server will continue to require massive timesinks to get anything done.

[Tanthallas]

If they did simulated repops and came out with SoV beta

This would fix it 100% - but this changes the environment completely. I am talking in terms of this environment remaining constant.

I also never mentioned anything about full rotations. That would be boring, as all this content available atm is pretty trivial in and of itself. Some kind of middle-ground, however, would be best in my opinion.

Thats the sounds of a broken and beaten man.

Sounds of a broken and beaten Silverwing, more like it. Only took me three weeks this time too.

[Alarti0001]

Sounds of a broken and beaten Silverwing, more like it. Only took me three weeks this time too.

More like 10 months.

[Tanthallas]

More like 10 months.

Are you for scuba?

[Alarti0001]

Are you for scuba?

I don't understand how bringing my real life hobbies into this in any way supports your argument or shames me.

[Tanthallas]

It was a yes or no question; dunno what all the crying is about.

I'm still wondering if you had anything relevant to contribute to this thread though.

[Tanthallas]

Im for scuba as well; if the people who call the shots currently had a more rational approach towards things, people would have more time for scuba.

[Ravager]

Thats the sounds of a broken and beaten man. The Dev/Staff can sure fix the server IDK why you think otherwise. If they did simulated repops and came out with SoV beta there would hardly be any of these QQ posts about the same ole people doing the same ole sheet. We have just stagnated,even if EVERY guild on the sever had a rotation and everyone played nice there would still be no where to go. Once all Peace Pipe has full PD loot then what? We are back at 1. So its more like "Nothing will fix the server but the people running the server" as I see it atop my golden throne =p

Except we wouldn't be back at 1, because Peace Pipe would have full PD loot and a much larger portion of the population would have gotten to see the content. Not everyone here has the desire to take everything and then complain that it's not enough and incessantly demand Velious. The problem is, it only takes a minority of greed to hose the majority over.

[Alarti0001]

It was a yes or no question; dunno what all the crying is about.

I'm still wondering if you had anything relevant to contribute to this thread though.

You only want new rules when you are losing.
You were fine with the rules last week and only ran to zeelot to beg a rotation in VP this week.

[Godefroi]

Keep this non RnF Alarti, I know it's gonna be real hard for you but please try !

[Tanthallas]

Losing? We clean swept you outside VP last week and took a VP dragon.

You almost clean swept us outside VP this week and took the others.

I dont want full rotations; I would just rather have moderated competition rather than balls to the wall 20 hour poopsocks and train fests - but if you guys would rather do that than scuba, I will be there just the same.

The point of this thread is to discuss issues with the state of the server; not discuss whatever irrelevant dribble Alarti feels like. I suggest that if you have nothing to add here, you make an RnF post about something and carry on there champ.

[Cecily]

Would like to scuba, tbh.

[Visual]

You only want new rules when you are losing.
You were fine with the rules last week

Threads were made. Websites were created. Parades with acrobats shooting fireworks while doing cartwheels.

[Alarti0001]

Losing? We clean swept you outside VP last week and took a VP dragon.

You almost clean swept us outside VP this week and took the others.

I dont want full rotations; I would just rather have moderated competition rather than balls to the wall 20 hour poopsocks and train fests - but if you guys would rather do that than scuba, I will be there just the same.

The point of this thread is to discuss issues with the state of the server; not discuss whatever irrelevant dribble Alarti feels like. I suggest that if you have nothing to add here, you make an RnF post about something and carry on there champ.

The point of this thread is to discuss poopsocking like Derubael indentified. Your ideas are just trying to increase poopsocking. Also, identifying your motives brings alot to the discussion.
Sorry if you mad brah

[justin2090]

BUT because there is only ONE server I think an enforced rotation by GMs should be in place and no variance so that;

A: people dont have to poopsock
B: other guilds still get a shot at the top end loot
C: TMO already has their stuff they are just gearing alts so they can share the love until velius comes out, lets face it they will be the only ones taking on velius raid bosses at start because no one else has gear to do it.

Boom, problem solved

Sounds like Obamacare and Welfare. Hah Democrats! When will they ever learn?

[Tanthallas]

The point of this thread is to discuss poopsocking like Derubael indentified. Your ideas are just trying to increase poopsocking. Also, identifying your motives brings alot to the discussion.
Sorry if you mad brah

This isnt preschool Alarti; everyone knows that each side has their own motives in doing whatever they do. The point is that there are more civil ways to engage with eachother that are in the benefit of each side. As much as I hate the simplistic nonsense spewed in economic theory, this is a pretty standard case of the prisoners dilemma.

[Cecily]

Plz explain with pictures.

[Tanthallas]

/wrist

[Origin]

Alarti forumquesting to the fullest, with Cecily hanging off his nuts. Not sure why these people are allowed to shit up threads like this.

This user is on your Ignore List.

Go back to RnF, please. Your contribution here is non existent.

[Briac]

Alarti forumquesting to the fullest, with Cecily hanging off his nuts. Not sure why these people are allowed to shit up threads like this.



Go back to RnF, please. Your contribution here is non existent.

+1

[Cecily]

In this type of thread when people don't drink the koolaid the OP is offering, their disagreement = shitting up the thread. It sounds like your pushing for a variation of 15 on spawn. No, just no. Large numbers of people who log in to an area without FTE (or the mob even being up) shouldn't be entitled to anything.

DA stalling benefits both sides. Poop socking gives an edge to the side that can tolerate doing it. The side that simply tracks is at a severe disadvantage for obtaining FTE. How is this not completely fair in the current system?

[Alarti0001]

Plz explain with pictures.

Also explain how both sides would benefit from cooperation.

[Alarti0001]

Alarti forumquesting to the fullest, with Cecily hanging off his nuts. Not sure why these people are allowed to shit up threads like this.



Go back to RnF, please. Your contribution here is non existent.

My contribution is anti-poopsock. Your contribution is QQ need more poopsock.

[Origin]

FORUMQUEST1999!

http://i41.tinypic.com/v3i0px.jpg

[Alarti0001]

Quick hide from all opinions that differ from my own!


http://i.imgur.com/3LAa7JA.jpg

[Cecily]

And there's my point right there. If you don't play how Origin wants you to play in his thread, he starts crying and tells his mom you punched him.

[Mezzmur]

I don't want to do the same thing. I want to stop it from happening, because the mechanic is flawed and is being exploited.

Here's an example for you:

Team A has 20 people sitting at VS while Team B has 2;
VS spawns, and Team B (for whatever reason) FTEs;
Team A has a force that can engage and kill VS, Team B doesn't;
Team B batphones and within 60 seconds DOES have a force that can kill VS;
Team A is unable to do shit because 2 people were able to FTE and stall for 1 minute.

Does that shit seem fair to you? Similar shit happened with the last Talendor. TMO ended up getting the last FTE before kill, but took 7+ minutes to kite him while more of their members logged on. He was sniped by a force that was ready to engage immediately.

Origin,

As the person who had FTE (Dumper), your force dwindled about 45min before VS spawned and you had less than 12 at that time. FE/IB had ~6 in room, and another maybe 6 over in the safe spot. Granted, you had 20+ most of the evening, but when he popped you didn't have the numbers to engage.

Additionally, I stood and fought taking full damage with no DA idol and buffs. I sat there and was prepared the whole time. You had 3 monks and at least 2 other melee in the room next to me who had just as much time and opportunity.

If you want to go back to having equal opportunity, camp everyone out in the side room and have one tracker sitting there to BP it. We only started bringing two people to fap in the room because he's being socked.

It's escalation and mutually assured destruction and it's happening on all raid targets now so the purely tracking and mobilizing model is no longer effective 90% of the time as it was 2-3 months ago.

[kotton05]

In the time of need. You succeeded. Let's talk about moving camps to lengthen pull times:) heard the boat in td is a good way to move raid once Fay is inc

[arsenalpow]

The issue with everything is that people cannot act like civilized adults. Let's look at BDA's Vox kill yesterday as a simple example.

We (BDA) were first on the scene and began the civilized process of clearing towards Vox. TMO shows up, leapfrogs our raid force, trains everything before Vox + plus her lair out and onto our force and immediately engages Vox. We were forced to camp out our raid force and TMO wiped to adds or something. We recovered from our partial wipe and beat the dragon. I don't really care if TMO's train out strat was "accidentally" dropped on our force or as they would obviously claim we shouldn't have been in their way.

So how do you stop that behavior with rule implementation? We managed to persevere through this round of bullshit, but for every one minor raid kill we get there's another 10 incidents where this exact same type of thing happens. We need rules to address that type of behavior, the attitude that as long as the mob is alive a guild can/will do anything possible to score the kill. The punishments are not severe enough to deter the behavior. Even if we caught the accidental train red handed with some 1080p fraps and two forms of ID that one alt might get suspended for a week, it doesn't stop the machine.

We need some type of play nice policy and we need it enforced. The current mindset is "do whatever it takes" and I've even told by staff numerous times that if we don't like what TMO does to us then we should do it right back to them. Some of us want to maintain some sense of decency and decorum. We shouldn't have to lie/cheat/steal/train and pretend it's tantamount to competition. Knowing how to dodge enemy trains (in places where it's actually illegal no less) shouldn't be a condition of raiding on this server.

I don't want to poopsock, I don't even want a rotation at this point (although I see nothing wrong with it) I only want to be able to engage a target without getting trained EVERY single time. This is possible, but TMO would actually have to act like adults. Every other guild has said at one point or another that they would agree to some simple rules of engagement but TMO refuses. 10% of the server population is dictating how raiding is to be done by everyone else. We've seen Divinity move on Dojo and given them some space to make an engage, or even when it was other guilds banding together to take a shot at Naggy we didn't immediately go to leapfrog and train giants out and OOPS sorry we didn't mean to train your raid accidentally because we desperately needed FTE.

There's nothing wrong with treating others like humans and trying to show some fucking decency.

[Rellapse35]

tldr go outside

[dav]

remove variance
let 6 guilds sit on the spawn point 15 minutes before
250 in zone, whatever
let us all realize this is dumb as fuck
let us hug it out and unite under the flowers of happiness banner

This should have been the case all along. Classic EQ is always desireable imo.

Now that we have FTE shouts, it just makes things even more clear. :)

[kotton05]

I watched TMO leap frog azure guard for that200th Draco.. Leading to a wipe of both sides lolz

[arsenalpow]

I watched TMO leap frog azure guard for that200th Draco.. Leading to a wipe of both sides lolz

TMO updated their frontpage yesterday to celebrate their 200th Trak kill and it has their records against most raid targets. This isn't something to be celebrated because that type of greed is what will eventually kill this server. They've killed CT 105 times and trained someone in the process at least 75% of the time I'm willing to guess. How many times did they leapfrog past someone like azure guard during their 76 Naggy kills? Of course they absolutely needed their 210th draco kill, sorry random guild comprised of new people that just started to raid the planes with an average level of 53, that's TMO's raid target and you should just quit now. God forbid they let someone like Azure Guard even attempt the target before turning fear into a shitshow.

[Jaxon]

If you have enough fraps evidence the GMs will punish TMO for training and have done so in the past. The fact that they continue to train means that the punishment they're getting when they get caught probably isn't harsh enough to deter them.

If I were in TMO's shoes I'd look at it this way. We showed up late and BDA is engaging soon. If we don't train and engage now we'll lose the mob and get no loot for sure. If we train we have a chance to get FTE and the kill. The gm's won't punish us unless they get fraps evidence from BDA. Even if we get caught, it's not like they're going to kick us out of VP for training Vox. All we'll get is a slap on the wrist so it's worth it to take a chance and train.

The punishments need to ramp up exponentially every time. It's going to take a multi-month all-target raid suspension with the prospect of a year-long ban on the horizon before TMO stops pulling shenanigans like that.

[Tanthallas]

In this type of thread when people don't drink the koolaid the OP is offering, their disagreement = shitting up the thread. It sounds like your pushing for a variation of 15 on spawn. No, just no. Large numbers of people who log in to an area without FTE (or the mob even being up) shouldn't be entitled to anything.

There is nothing more or less 'fair' about having whatever is deemed a sufficient force at the spawn or getting FTE. Things are not the best they could possibly be merely because they happen to be the current status quo.

DA stalling benefits both sides. Poop socking gives an edge to the side that can tolerate doing it. The side that simply tracks is at a severe disadvantage for obtaining FTE. How is this not completely fair in the current system?

You merely restated how things currently are and attached some notion of fairness to them. While thoroughly impressed with the depth of your ability to state the obvious, once again your claim that it is 'fair' is completely subjective and irrelevant. Just because people have a chance by taking extreme measures does not mean the system is 'completely fair' - it may as well mean the opposite in most cases.

Regardless, fairness is not the issue here; we dont do these things because they are fair, we do them because the state of competition on this server has degenerated to the point of having to do them. 'Fairness' in the current system is simply stretching the rules as far as possible to win. This is the case because we are incapable of engaging eachother like rational fucking adults and setting up some standards between us.

[Itap]

200 Trak kills.





















200 Trak kills.

[Yapas]

I wish VS window open soon... So I can see the same incredible Clown show :

1st part : While 20 or 30+ FE/IB in room (90% DKP leech AFK) some people dieing cause no one react ! It must be terrible to be killed by a light blue when you're surrounded by 30 guildmates lol

2nd part : Clowns always tried to push people to laugh so they don't hesitate to train themselves and wipe (of course to avoid shame they insta said TMO train ahah)

3rd part : After 96 hours of clowning the impossible thing happen ! they loose FTE cause they are afk as usual !

Thanks for the fun (really) and keep pushing maybe you will be able to beat your 96 hours record :p

[arsenalpow]

If you have enough fraps evidence the GMs will punish TMO for training and have done so in the past. The fact that they continue to train means that the punishment they're getting when they get caught probably isn't harsh enough to deter them.

If I were in TMO's shoes I'd look at it this way. We showed up late and BDA is engaging soon. If we don't train and engage now we'll lose the mob and get no loot for sure. If we train we have a chance to get FTE and the kill. The gm's won't punish us unless they get fraps evidence from BDA. Even if we get caught, all we'll get is a slap on the wrist so it's worth it to take a chance and train.

The punishments need to ramp up exponentially every time. It's going to take a multi-month all-target raid suspension with the prospect of a year-long ban on the horizon before TMO stops pulling shenanigans like that.

We had crystal clear fraps of Sentenza training us for a ragefire on his monk a while back We got another monthlong slap on the wrist to go with the previous 3 monthlong suspensions. It's ok though he just played a different account. The punishments need to scale as the infractions accumulate, it's the only way to end this type of behavior. Maybe someone from the TMO/FE/IB side of things can shed some light of the number of single character suspensions they've seen in the past 6 months for these types of infractions.

[Yapas]

We had crystal clear fraps of Sentenza training us for a ragefire on his monk a while back We got another monthlong slap on the wrist to go with the previous 3 monthlong suspensions. It's ok though he just played a different account. The punishments need to scale as the infractions accumulate, it's the only way to end this type of behavior. Maybe someone from the TMO/FE/IB side of things can shed some light of the number of single character suspensions they've seen in the past 6 months for these types of infractions.

Just PM your guildmate err I mean GM Ambrotos! He is a big fan of TMO (lol)

[kotton05]

I dunno but I train all the time and get away iit! I know a fe monk got jewed on some retarded inconclusive fraps of a train tho recently.

[justin2090]

IF the GM's enforced a raid mob rotation what would stop guilds from not recruiting? I mean if your guaranteed a raid mob and you could take several hours to get there why would you want to increase your raid force?

"X" guild is guaranteed Trak kills for the next month and they have 20ish active players. Sorry no more apps please raid force is full. Then guess what? Their mains get geared and their 7 alts. Same shit folks.

Government intervention is not the way! Let the people figure it out.

[Tanthallas]

IF the GM's enforced a raid mob rotation what would stop guilds from not recruiting? I mean if your guaranteed a raid mob and you could take several hours to get there why would you want to increase your raid force?

"X" guild is guaranteed Trak kills for the next month and they have 20ish active players. Sorry no more apps please raid force is full. Then guess what? Their mains get geared and their 7 alts. Same shit folks.

Government intervention is not the way! Let the people figure it out.

Glenn Beck hasnt been on the air for a while, and I am pretty sure most of us would like to keep it that way. Go argue with hasbinbad or something; your off the wall biased political agenda is really not necessary here. The point of most people on here is exactly to let the people figure it out; the problem is that the people are not figuring it out.

[Mezzmur]

The punishments need to ramp up exponentially every time. It's going to take a multi-month all-target raid suspension with the prospect of a year-long ban on the horizon before TMO stops pulling shenanigans like that.

Bans ramp up 7/14/28/.... days at a time.

I know of at least 3-4 people that have suspended on both sides and when this kind of stuff happens. If there is an issue with a whole raid or guild and it's fraps'd the GMs have also raid suspended an entire guild from all/some raid mobs as well.

I mean, back in 2011, I believe it was Perun who was suspended and TR suspended for using ShowEQ? (Maybe I'm wrong, but that's what I recall)

None of this is unheard of, if you feel you're wronged or you see people doing something wrong, put your petition in and let the GMs answer your petition. They can't be everywhere at once, but they do their damned hardest to make sure that everyone is on the same playing field.

[arsenalpow]

IF the GM's enforced a raid mob rotation what would stop guilds from not recruiting? I mean if your guaranteed a raid mob and you could take several hours to get there why would you want to increase your raid force?

"X" guild is guaranteed Trak kills for the next month and they have 20ish active players. Sorry no more apps please raid force is full. Then guess what? Their mains get geared and their 7 alts. Same shit folks.

Government intervention is not the way! Let the people figure it out.

Let's take a look at something like Trak. Leave variance in. You could have a rotation with something like TMO, FE/IB, BDA, Taken, Divinty, FFA. Set stipulations, you must engage in 15 minutes or it turns into FFA. You wipe and it turns into FFA. The casual guilds still aren't guaranteed that kill when Trak spawns at some stupid 4am slot, or when it spawns in the middle of the week on a workday. I don't even know if it's feasible, TMO would probably just split into TMO-A, TMO-B, TMO-C and demand slots. There's going to be drawbacks with any system that could be implemented, just like there's drawbacks now, even the system now could work if people could exhibit some common courtesy.

[justin2090]

Glenn Beck hasnt been on the air for a while, and I am pretty sure most of us would like to keep it that way. Go argue with hasbinbad or something; your off the wall biased political agenda is really not necessary here. The point of most people on here is exactly to let the people figure it out; the problem is that the people are not figuring it out.

I speak the truth and you know it. Never underestimate greed and especially nerd greed.

[Tanthallas]

Never underestimate greed..but let the people figure it out. Sounds like a winning recipe to me!

[justin2090]

Never underestimate greed..but let the people figure it out. Sounds like a winning recipe to me!

this quote = current raid scene

[justin2090]

Basically the grass is always greener on top of the septic tank. If you think its bad now just wait for some GM intervention.

[Cecily]

this quote = current raid scene

Which I'm totally fine with. If the kill boards were a little more blue this week, I'm sure they'd be fine with it too.

[arsenalpow]

Bans ramp up 7/14/28/.... days at a time.

I know of at least 3-4 people that have suspended on both sides and when this kind of stuff happens. If there is an issue with a whole raid or guild and it's fraps'd the GMs have also raid suspended an entire guild from all/some raid mobs as well.

I mean, back in 2011, I believe it was Perun who was suspended and TR suspended for using ShowEQ? (Maybe I'm wrong, but that's what I recall)

None of this is unheard of, if you feel you're wronged or you see people doing something wrong, put your petition in and let the GMs answer your petition. They can't be everywhere at once, but they do their damned hardest to make sure that everyone is on the same playing field.

Single accounts and target specific suspensions need to eventually increase to guildwide raid suspensions. A single person can take one for the team and lose an account and it does not affect anything because of the accounts that most people have stacked up. This isn't a classic issue because back then Jeremy wasn't going to pay for 8 accounts, here he can have as many as he wants and park them wherever he wants. Losing one account is not an effective deterrent, the reward of loot outweighs the risk of losing one person from the zerg. Even losing a single shot at a mob isn't enough. It needs to scale up to losing the mob for month and then to full on guild suspensions.

[justin2090]

Let's take a look at something like Trak. Leave variance in. You could have a rotation with something like TMO, FE/IB, BDA, Taken, Divinty, FFA. Set stipulations, you must engage in 15 minutes or it turns into FFA. You wipe and it turns into FFA. The casual guilds still aren't guaranteed that kill when Trak spawns at some stupid 4am slot, or when it spawns in the middle of the week on a workday. I don't even know if it's feasible, TMO would probably just split into TMO-A, TMO-B, TMO-C and demand slots. There's going to be drawbacks with any system that could be implemented, just like there's drawbacks now, even the system now could work if people could exhibit some common courtesy.

This may help some but really its the non-batphone people that want to kill a dragon. There would have to be a set time every week for a raid boss to spawn. But then again what would stop X guild from loggin an unguilded alt for training purposes? 15 minutes is up.

[Erati]

Bans ramp up 7/14/28/.... days at a time..

this made me laugh

Sericx facing a 28 day ban ( 3 time offender) was only banned 5 days after the petition forum overflowed w TMO tears ab unfair fraps, he only wiped 6!, or my favorite "why were u guys on the ramp!"

nice thought tho to bad we all kno bans hardly last as long as they are suppose to

i agree with .. gulp... Chest

[sanforce]

this made me laugh

Sericx facing a 28 day ban ( 3 time offender) was only banned 5 days after the petition forum overflowed w TMO tears ab unfair fraps, he only wiped 6!, or my favorite "why wete u guys on the ramp!"

nice thought tho to bad we all kno bans hardly last as long as they are suppose to

i agree with .. gulp... Chest

Are you talking about when Taken had people just hanging out on the ramp (not a raid force, ~3 people) in Hate, Sericx went for a pull, and that dumb cleric (who was standing in the worst choke point in the zone) died? Yeaa.... I don't think that really counts as training and the staff didn't either when they reviewed different sets of fraps. You can't wonder around like a chicken with its head cutoff and expect to get GM rulings in your favor. That cleric had no reason to be chilling on the ramp with a bunch of FD monks setting up for pull attempts.

[Erati]

^ that wasnt bias perspective or anything


we had 15-17 people on the ramp enroute to kill Inny in his room

but ty for showing how TMO paints pictures to fit their story

[justin2090]

Lets also not forget that the GM's here are volunteers. They don't have ample amounts of time to police the eq world. I think we all forget this cause this server is so good. Having them enforce a set schedule would take time away from their RL and without any monetary compensation. I think it's asking too much.

[Mezzmur]

Single accounts and target specific suspensions need to eventually increase to guildwide raid suspensions. A single person can take one for the team and lose an account and it does not affect anything because of the accounts that most people have stacked up. This isn't a classic issue because back then Jeremy wasn't going to pay for 8 accounts, here he can have as many as he wants and park them wherever he wants. Losing one account is not an effective deterrent, the reward of loot outweighs the risk of losing one person from the zerg. Even losing a single shot at a mob isn't enough. It needs to scale up to losing the mob for month and then to full on guild suspensions.

1.) I have no problem with this. If there's something f*cked up about a whole raid and we cost someone else something intentionally, sure, suspend us from that mob for a week or all mobs if it's bad enough. There's a precedent out there for that, it has happened for various reasons in the past. I think it's up to the GMs to decide where that line in the sand is and make sure everyone is clear on it, but you also can't always punish everyone for one person's behavior.

Last nights Vox was truly accidental and a cockup. We rushed, we lost, then you went in and we stood back and watched. GG.

2.) I appreciate your desire to say Zerg and peg TMO as some big machine. I've been around a long time and we do have a lot of members, but we also do a lot with a few. I've killed numerious VP dragons with 18-20 people, which is far from Zerg. We have a lot of toons and a lot of alts, but yeah, I don't think defamatory verbiage helps the conversation. There's a lot of good people here.

3.) As with previous comments, FRAPs everything and let the GMs do their honest best to help guide and prevent cheaters, sploiters etc. They do their best but can't be everywhere. I can't tell you the number of times I've been FD in a zone and been blamed for trains on Flippie when I haven't even moved. Shit happens and I use FRAPs as a defensive tool more than an offensive tool these days because people always assume the worst.

To the topic of the thread: ultimately, I believe there's a lot of people at the top with no expanding content (at this point) and Velious would help. I also believe that having a random simulated repop on some day every two weeks would be awesome. TMO can't be everywhere at once and you see the most "distribution of wealth" on days when there is a repop. Plus, then there's NO tracking for like 5 days, how f*cking sweet is that?!

Just don't make it every Tuesday, make it a random day so different player bases can experience it and 99% of all the nonsense goes away. (IMHO)

[kotton05]

grats on trak n vs for first time in awhile tmo, jeez must of been really working hard to stir this much sshit over them

[Alarti0001]

If you have enough fraps evidence the GMs will punish TMO for training and have done so in the past. The fact that they continue to train means that the punishment they're getting when they get caught probably isn't harsh enough to deter them.



Or that we aren't training

[sanforce]

If rotations were enforced, you would definitely see the larger guilds break into a bunch of small guilds and the line for any mobs would be 30+ in length. Also, where is the competition in signing up for a certain date/time to engage a mob.


What we really need is spinoff servers for the complainers ... "Project 1999: Guild XYZ", where only that guild gets copied over and they can run all over their own version of Norrath to slay them pixels.

[Origin]

Origin,

As the person who had FTE (Dumper), your force dwindled about 45min before VS spawned and you had less than 12 at that time. FE/IB had ~6 in room, and another maybe 6 over in the safe spot. Granted, you had 20+ most of the evening, but when he popped you didn't have the numbers to engage.

Additionally, I stood and fought taking full damage with no DA idol and buffs. I sat there and was prepared the whole time. You had 3 monks and at least 2 other melee in the room next to me who had just as much time and opportunity.

If you want to go back to having equal opportunity, camp everyone out in the side room and have one tracker sitting there to BP it. We only started bringing two people to fap in the room because he's being socked.

It's escalation and mutually assured destruction and it's happening on all raid targets now so the purely tracking and mobilizing model is no longer effective 90% of the time as it was 2-3 months ago.

I wasn't there personally, but from what i've gathered this sounds about right.

Thanks for taking the time to reply.

As a side note, the purpose of this thread was to start a discussion. In my opinion, there is a problem with the FTE mechanic being employed right now. But even more so there is a problem, as many have identified, with the supply/demand of mobs on this server. I've never claimed that my idea for the FTE mechanic was perfect, so yeah, people can argue one way or the other, but lets leave the forumquesting in RnF.

[Alarti0001]

this made me laugh

Sericx facing a 28 day ban ( 3 time offender) was only banned 5 days after the petition forum overflowed w TMO tears ab unfair fraps, he only wiped 6!, or my favorite "why were u guys on the ramp!"

nice thought tho to bad we all kno bans hardly last as long as they are suppose to

i agree with .. gulp... Chest

Actually sericx was unfairly suspended for 5 days. We proved him clear of all charges.

[Mezzmur]

this made me laugh

Sericx facing a 28 day ban ( 3 time offender) was only banned 5 days after the petition forum overflowed w TMO tears ab unfair fraps, he only wiped 6!, or my favorite "why were u guys on the ramp!"

nice thought tho to bad we all kno bans hardly last as long as they are suppose to

i agree with .. gulp... Chest

I don't know who you are. I appreciate your perspective, but the ruling was reversed, TMO was raid suspended from that Inny as well.

Also, afaik, Sericx did get back after a week instead of 28 days, however his "ticker" went up, next time it's 56 days, even though they overturned his suspension.

This is a free service, I don't know how much you donate personally, but GMs do what they can to keep it fair for all and limit their intervention except when people f*ck others up intentionally.

[Erati]

the Sericx thing is done we moved on

i was just using it as an example to support Chest on how little those ban/suspensions mean

a 28 day ban bc hes a repeat offender.. let off after 5 days not even a week for a known trainer who "gasp" was accused of training

[sanforce]

^ that wasnt bias perspective or anything


we had 15-17 people on the ramp enroute to kill Inny in his room

but ty for showing how TMO paints pictures to fit their story

I saw the fraps that were used to suspend Sericx. There was definitely not a raid force at the bottom of the ramp - it was a few people wondering around. A raid force is never present in any set of fraps from that incident.

[Alarti0001]

you proved it?

yep /bow

[Mezzmur]

grats on trak n vs for first time in awhile tmo, jeez must of been really working hard to stir this much sshit over them

Seems like RNF? I don't see how this helps, plus, isn't the OP from your teammate who was trying to change FTE after we just got VS?

[arsenalpow]

The last guild wide suspension was TMO after Sentenza blatantly kited mobs in sky for TMOs efreeti raid which was issued by Amelinda. That's been over a year? If punishments should escalate why hasn't there been one since?

[Erati]

I saw the fraps that were used to suspend Sericx. There was definitely not a raid force at the bottom of the ramp - it was a few people wondering around. A raid force is never present in any set of fraps from that incident.

right we like to casually stroll around hate w 4 people with TMO in zone n Inny up

the only reason anyone would b there would b with a raid force

thats the problem w this server ... all ab rulelawyers and what you can Prove "tm"

[kotton05]

I can't say grats? also Lol I think he's alil new to the scene , nothings gonna change, this has been rnf for awhile now=-/

IB will sock harder even more next sock, you won no victory cept making them knit bigger socks, i'm sure of it.

[arsenalpow]

If rotations were enforced, you would definitely see the larger guilds break into a bunch of small guilds and the line for any mobs would be 30+ in length. Also, where is the competition in signing up for a certain date/time to engage a mob.


What we really need is spinoff servers for the complainers ... "Project 1999: Guild XYZ", where only that guild gets copied over and they can run all over their own version of Norrath to slay them pixels.

Just make an exact copy of blue, p99R for rotations. Any guild that would like to move there can /movelog over. How much does the hardware cost? I'm sure numerous people would help fund it

[Origin]

Seems like RNF? I don't see how this helps, plus, isn't the OP from your teammate who was trying to change FTE after we just got VS?

Aye. This isn't the place Merkk.

[Alarti0001]

IB/FE will sock harder even more next sock, you won no victory cept making them knit bigger socks, i'm sure of it.

Confirmed

[justin2090]

To the topic of the thread: ultimately, I believe there's a lot of people at the top with no expanding content (at this point) and Velious would help. I also believe that having a random simulated repop on some day every two weeks would be awesome. TMO can't be everywhere at once and you see the most "distribution of wealth" on days when there is a repop. Plus, then there's NO tracking for like 5 days, how f*cking sweet is that?!

Just don't make it every Tuesday, make it a random day so different player bases can experience it and 99% of all the nonsense goes away. (IMHO)

I agree fully that velious will help a ton.

Random repop still wouldn't stop spawn camping. I mean that's really what this is about. The only way this resolves is a truce between TMO/FE/IB. Shake hands and let the guild leaders work out a schedule. Then we'll never see another thread like this one again.

[sanforce]

right we like to casually stroll around hate w 4 people with TMO in zone n Inny up

the only reason anyone would b there would b with a raid force

thats the problem w this server ... all ab rulelawyers and what you can Prove "tm"

Oh, I definitely believe there were more Taken in the zone than the few I saw on fraps. But, there was not a raid force present at the ramp and the few that got trained seemed to just be wondering around on/near the ramp (a severe choke point if pulling to the zone is allowed).

[Mezzmur]

The last guild wide suspension was TMO after Sentenza blatantly kited mobs in sky for TMOs efreeti raid which was issued by Amelinda. That's been over a year? If punishments should escalate why hasn't there been one since?

You'd have to ask Sirken, but we were raid suspended from Inny during the Sericx incident even after the ruling was overturned.

Seems to me there's 3 levels of punishment.

Personal Suspension
Guild Target Suspension
All Raid Target Suspenion

Handing those out, I would imagine, is difficult and someone is always going to be upset, again, they're (GMs) doing their best with what they have when they have it. Relying on FRAPs isn't a perfect science, but they're a bunch of unpaid folks doing this on their own time.

[Erati]

(a severe choke point if pulling to the zone is allowed).

exactly why is pulling to zone allowed again?

classic- u raced to Inny n killed him in his room
first 2 yrs P99- u raced to Inny n killed him in his room
Now -shitshow

[Alarti0001]

You'd have to ask Sirken, but we were raid suspended from Inny during the Sericx incident even after the ruling was overturned.

Seems to me there's 3 levels of punishment.

Personal Suspension
Guild Target Suspension
All Raid Target Suspenion

Handing those out, I would imagine, is difficult and someone is always going to be upset, again, they're (GMs) doing their best with what they have when they have it. Relying on FRAPs isn't a perfect science, but they're a bunch of unpaid folks doing this on their own time.

The 1 kill raid suspension wasnt overturned simply because the ruling wasnt overturned until after the following inny spawned.

[Alarti0001]

exactly why is pulling to zone allowed again?

classic- u raced to Inny n killed him in his room
first 2 yrs P99- u raced to Inny n killed him in his room
Now -shitshow

In Classic you didnt have AE clears of Fear, or CT zergs, or or or or or

Basically, just because something didn't happen doesn't mean it couldn't have

[Mezzmur]

Random repop still wouldn't stop spawn camping. I mean that's really what this is about. The only way this resolves is a truce between TMO/FE/IB. Shake hands and let the guild leaders work out a schedule. Then we'll never see another thread like this one again.

I really enjoy the racing and don't mind competing for mobs. I don't mind tracking while doing other stuff on my other monitor, but sitting typing /target Venril for 4 hours at a time sucks, but it's the way things are right now if you want to kill him. However, I will it is a rush when you do get the FTE, I thoroughly enjoyed it this week.

The idea behind a random repop day is that you would reset the timers more regularly and give an opportunity to more people if that's what you're after without putting some restriction on any one guild. If TMO REALLY wanted more of those mobs we'd be forced to do more with less and split our forces into multiple targets and create a challenge. If the repop happend weekly or bi-weekly you'd reduce the time stuff is "in window" ie Poopsock time. Weekly would be best to achieve this. You'd still have a chance for stuff to spawn, and potentially some stuff would even spawn more often if they were up mid-week, but I see it as a better way to counteract at least some of the sock-offs.

[Erati]

I always zerged CT in classic :)

anyway back on topic

poop goes into socks n phat lewtz results

/discuss

[Mezzmur]

I always zerged CT in classic :)

I would really like to see the CT Death Touch Cycle fixed, it certainly makes the whole encounter more complicated and difficult.

[kotton05]

he builds up his dt's if oor I think

[Mezzmur]

he builds up his dt's if oor I think

Yeah, I suppose there's probably another thread in bugs, but his DT-Chain builds rather than randomly DTing people in zone. This means people can toy with the DT and not be of threat. His DT should be zone wide every 30 seconds with anyone in zone as a potential target.

Small potatoes compared to other stuff, and I suppose with Velious (hopefully) on the horizon there's more important encounters to deal with.

[sanforce]

exactly why is pulling to zone allowed again?

classic- u raced to Inny n killed him in his room
first 2 yrs P99- u raced to Inny n killed him in his room
Now -shitshow

I definitely agree. Inny should have to be engaged at the top of ramp to avoid the current shitshow setup. Anyone that tries to run a raid force into the zone right now runs the risk of a wipe if they don't engage first, which influences the zone kill mentality/mess.

[justin2090]

I really enjoy the racing and don't mind competing for mobs. I don't mind tracking while doing other stuff on my other monitor, but sitting typing /target Venril for 4 hours at a time sucks, but it's the way things are right now if you want to kill him. However, I will it is a rush when you do get the FTE, I thoroughly enjoyed it this week.

The idea behind a random repop day is that you would reset the timers more regularly and give an opportunity to more people if that's what you're after without putting some restriction on any one guild. If TMO REALLY wanted more of those mobs we'd be forced to do more with less and split our forces into multiple targets and create a challenge. If the repop happend weekly or bi-weekly you'd reduce the time stuff is "in window" ie Poopsock time. Weekly would be best to achieve this. You'd still have a chance for stuff to spawn, and potentially some stuff would even spawn more often if they were up mid-week, but I see it as a better way to counteract at least some of the sock-offs.

If you enjoy the competition why not have a world wide message that say's "X-mob will spawn in 30 minutes". Then everybody, even the ec mules, will know its time to log the main and truck it. Make the spawn time always happen during prime time hours so that the majority will have a chance. I know it would suck for the euro guilds and I don't know how to resolve that.

Basically you get home from work at 5pm and play till 10pm and sometime in between you may see a server message that says "Trak will spawn in 30 minutes!" Then may the best muster guild win.

[sanforce]

If you enjoy the competition why not have a world wide message that say's "X-mob will spawn in 30 minutes". Then everybody, even the ec mules, will know its time to log the main and truck it. Make the spawn time always happen during prime time hours so that the majority will have a chance. I know it would suck for the euro guilds and I don't know how to resolve that.

Basically you get home from work at 5pm and play till 10pm and sometime in between you may see a server message that says "Trak will spawn in 30 minutes!" Then may the best muster guild win.

So 100 monks can be FDd on the spawn point ready for an insta engage? That's not a race.

[dav]

Which I'm totally fine with. If the kill boards were a little more blue this week, I'm sure they'd be fine with it too.

Which is wrong. People shouldn't be whining because of the way that one weeks worth of raiding goes. Just because IB/FE lost FTE on VS doesn't mean that DA stalling is all of a sudden wrong, anymore than it means that variance and poopsocking is messed up. They've always been issues, and not classic.

If people would stop lobbying for changes simply because it benefits them one week, and instead if the GMs would buy into the fact that certain actions are wrong and not-classic and instead fix them for the server as a whole, I think we would be a lot better off.

What we currently have is the people that created bullshit like Variance and blessed things such as VP-training and DA-stalling openly stating things like this:
Let's use Trak as an example. The other day fe/ib got a Trak engage with just a few people in the zone. You guys were able to get your raid force in and down trak in about ~2minutes. This took skill, organization, mobilization, and was a good kill. These are the kinds of things we want to encourage here, not planting 50 people at trak spawn and having me turn you all into boats.


Yes because, that's what camping out characters, FTE tagging and stalling while they log-in from a batphone is. Skill, organization, and mobilization, just like classic EQ.. right?

Wait, no that didn't happen. Sorry.

As long as the people making the rules and calling the shots are under the assumption that all of this non-classic garbage is somehow good for the server/them then it's going to continue.

If the entire playerbase and not just the one guild it benefits given the current week would come out and say: "This stuff is stupid and is not a classic mechanic please fix it" I think they would be a lot more liable to actually listen/care.

The problem is that some people have ADAPTED to these rules and are good at them, so they don't want to change them (a few persons withstanding) until they stop benefiting from them.

Personally, I just want the mechanics to be classic, regardless of whether or not it means the playerbase has to sit at a mobs spawnpoint and wait for a known spawntime and fight it out for FTE.

It shouldn't matter who is benefiting from the current system one week to the next, it should be looked at in a "how did it work during classic EQ" sense.

The truth is that until all parties involved want it to change, and the guides/gms/devs/admins come to their senses and realize that FTE tagging, DA stalling, VP-training, batphoning, and every other single thing that is not-classic is a detriment to the playerbase/server at large, things are going to remain the same.

Glad you're fine with it for now though. :)

[Cecily]

I hate you all so much.

[justin2090]

So 100 monks can be FDd on the spawn point ready for an insta engage? That's not a race.

Well being that the spawn wouldn't be a set day every week. You don't know when the respawn is. Could be 1 day or could be 30 days. All you know is when the message comes up its go time.

Now if you mean that the monks truck it there when they see the message and FD. How is truck it not a race?

[arsenalpow]

Scheduled spawns aren't going to be the answer, variance is probably necessary at this point.

[dav]

Bans ramp up 7/14/28/.... days at a time.

I know of at least 3-4 people that have suspended on both sides and when this kind of stuff happens. If there is an issue with a whole raid or guild and it's fraps'd the GMs have also raid suspended an entire guild from all/some raid mobs as well.

I mean, back in 2011, I believe it was Perun who was suspended and TR suspended for using ShowEQ? (Maybe I'm wrong, but that's what I recall)

None of this is unheard of, if you feel you're wronged or you see people doing something wrong, put your petition in and let the GMs answer your petition. They can't be everywhere at once, but they do their damned hardest to make sure that everyone is on the same playing field.

TR was never suspended because Perun used SEQ. Perun was, and so were another 300 or so large group of players.

[Splorf22]

players want repops
admins promised long ago
tinfoil hats incoming

[dav]

Scheduled spawns aren't going to be the answer, variance is probably necessary at this point.

The answer to what? First we need a question.

If the question is "How can we make the raidscene fun and engaging for all?" then no it is not the answer. If it is "How can we sculpt a raidscene that funnels up to one guild dominating content?" then it is not the answer.

If the question is "How can we make the mechanics as classic as possible?" then it's the ONLY answer.

Unfortunately, the truth is that some people would rather not play with classic mechanics.

We would rather bitch and moan and make threads such as this talking about how raiding sucks everytime we're snubbed by one of the rules or feel cheated, based on how we're feeling at the moment.

At least if stuff was classic complaints could be met with "deal with it, it's classic". Now it feels like they're met with "deal with it, some of us enjoy it for the time being".

It's sad.

[justin2090]

I think I speak for most when I say that I was a kid when I played classic. I had no real responsibilities besides going to school. Most P99'ers wanna relive classic but don't have the classic amount of time to put in. That's what this server is all about right? Relive the classic experience? Why not make it easier to do so since we're adults now with other things to do.

EDIT:
And that could start with a message saying that "X mob has spawned" (previous post)

[Origin]

McDavril is my F&F bro for life.

Sorry, carry on.

[quido]

shit's classic bros

[Thulack]

players want repops
admins promised long ago
tinfoil hats incoming

admins like the shitshow. Don't need a tinfoil hat to see that.

[Mezzmur]

TR was never suspended because Perun used SEQ. Perun was, and so were another 300 or so large group of players.

I knew the original waves of MQ2 were individual but could've swore there were some raid suspensions involved with SEQ. No matter, I stand corrected. I thought that was an example of a individual getting a guild on the bench for a period of time. 2011 was long ago...

[Alarti0001]

I knew the original waves of MQ2 were individual but could've swore there were some raid suspensions involved with SEQ. No matter, I stand corrected. I thought that was an example of a individual getting a guild on the bench for a period of time. 2011 was long ago...

Some guy in DA got his guild raid suspended for using SEQ in like LGUK or something

[Derubael]

players want repops
admins promised long ago
tinfoil hats incoming

last line is 6 syllables.

10/10 regardless. masterfully done.

velious will fix alot of these raid issues by providing more targets.

[khanable]

The real fix is going to be an abundance of frog/unicorn portions, Deru. Let us not kid ourselves.

[Origin]

last line is 6 syllables.

10/10 regardless. masterfully done.

velious will fix alot of these raid issues by providing more targets.

As the reds say, pras.

Also, teams99 will help.

[Derubael]

blue and red both need more 1000 charge iksar pots imo. if we were all lizards we wouldn't fight over raid targets, we'd just raid FV

[Derubael]

players want repops
admins promised long ago
tinfoil hatters inc
ftfy, now its 11/10 for proper haiku.

[Splorf22]

can't believe i screwed that up. Oh well. I do think think there is a certain Zen quality about it though.

[Pullyn]

blue and red both need more 1000 charge iksar pots imo. if we were all lizards we wouldn't fight over raid targets, we'd just raid FV

This clearly isn't the issue. I am a human and Cucumbers is an Iksar and we alget along like bread and butter. No homo.

[kotton05]

The average life of trak and vs, under a minute, can we take a moment and reflect on their such sweet short lives?

[justin2090]

lvelious will fix alot of these raid issues by providing more targets.

Agreed. So it's settled then. No more changes and no more threads suggesting changes until we see what Velious itself changes. And no more "smoke" breaks. =D

[Godefroi]

The average life of trak and vs, under a minute, can we take a moment and reflect on their such sweet short lives?

VS literally never lives one second without being engaged :D

[Alarti0001]

The average life of trak and vs, under a minute, can we take a moment and reflect on their such sweet short lives?

This makes sense with extended windows... I'd stay in hiding also.

[defener]

Let's just remove raid mobs and have their loot drop off of anything. Problem solved.

[Oakengroves]

Halls of Testing armor, the freeing up of Kunark boss mobs/epic quests, and the availability of non-boss Velious drops (Willsapper is a good example) really equaled the playing field in EQlive on my old server. Guilds were able to do more with this gear because it was much more accessible, easier to obtain, and less contested.

It will be interesting to observe how things play out.

[Orruar]

Halls of Testing armor, the freeing up of Kunark boss mobs/epic quests, and the availability of non-boss Velious drops (Willsapper is a good example) really equaled the playing field in EQlive on my old server. Guilds were able to do more with this gear because it was much more accessible, easier to obtain, and less contested.

It will be interesting to observe how things play out.

You think it is a lack of gear that is preventing other guilds from beating raid encounters on this server?

[Autotune]

velious will fix alot of these raid issues by providing more targets.

That's what was said about Kunark. Now, say hello to the new and improved extra long variance mechanic!