OFFICIAL PROPOSAL from FE/TMO

[Yinikren]

Anything that is proposed will always favor the top end. Wtf are you smoking. That's because the top end tries harder, invests more or whatever. It will always be that way. We're talking about being good sports and not monopolizing shit here. We're going to have to compete with TMO, nvest all that effort, and maybe still end up on the losing end. Why don't you propose something "fair"? Whatever guild you're in gets an equal amount of mobs as TMO?

If you've read my thread at all (you haven't) you'd realize that this isn't a fucking numbers game.

You want to kill more mobs, pick cheaper targets in my system. You put in the work, you get the more valuable mobs till you hit your cap and someone else gets to raid for a bit.

[-Catherin-]

So we're back to guilds holding the raid scene hostage instead of coming together and discussing compromises and alternate solutions once again?

I believe that's what this is all about (the discussing compromise part.) I think people are making plenty clear that this proposal is not compromise. It's no different than how the raid scene has already been held hostage for the last two years, except this time you guys do not have sweeping authority over what happens. If you consider that holding the raid scene hostage then that's your opinion. Must suck. Welcome to what we have dealt with for years.

People are not going to fall over themselves and rush to an agreement that doesn't change much for the better, in the fear of a suspension because that would be almost like any other day for us anyways.

[Buriedpast]

Yep, it's bullshit and I'm disappointed in FE more than TMO.

I know guys in TMO, I know they're willing to share evenly.

[Hailto]

i've said it before and ill say it again. FE and TMO need to stop raiding until Velious is released.

I'm in FE and still need loot from Draco, we don't all have 5 alts vp geared.

[Hitpoint]

I have no issues with compromise (see my unbiased post) but I think its absolutely hilarious that TMO and FE can "cut their losses" on 25% of the mobs they would normally take to divide amongst the rest of the server, then peddle their idea as the epitome of fairness.

You must have missed the part where maestro/tal/gore/draco are unavailable to us for the other 3 weeks. Or that we're going to be splitting those priority targets across 3 guilds, probably 4 once BDA or taken cleans up on the first week. I find it hard to imagine that one of those guilds wont end up killing 40%.

[Frieza_Prexus]

i've said it before and ill say it again. FE and TMO need to stop raiding until Velious is released.

I play the game to raid, yet I should not be allowed to do so? Isn't this exactly the complaint the casuals have had against the higher end?

An eye for an eye will make the whole world blind.

[Hitpoint]

Yep, it's bullshit and I'm disappointed in FE more than TMO.

I know guys in TMO, I know they're willing to share evenly.

TMO has had the shit on lockdown for years. They don't care about their third alts as much as we care about mains. There's a big difference.

[Durka]

Just something to consider when talking about a points system...

What do you do when 1 guild either splits into two or sticks a bunch of alts into a brand new guild...?

How will you know if that new guild is a legitimate separate entity, or just a ploy for more points?

Will you just go with your gut feeling and tell a guild that may in fact be its own thing separate from the original guild 'no, you can't raid because we think you're exploiting points'?

Just a thought. Not saying you can't do it.

That was my concern. No way to really track legitimacy of new guilds that spring up as a result of this...

[Hailto]

Buriedpast doesn't even warrant a reply with that idiotic statement.

[jaybone]

I'm in FE and still need loot from Draco, we don't all have 5 alts vp geared.

If you dont mind me asking what upgrade do you need and what do you have currently.

[Yinikren]

You must have missed the part where maestro/tal/gore/draco are unavailable to us for the other 3 weeks. Or that we're going to be splitting those priority targets across 3 guilds, probably 4 once BDA or taken cleans up on the first week. I find it hard to imagine that one of those guilds wont end up killing 40%.

That's the part I giggled the most, and that was also the first order of contention when someone WHO MADE THE AGREEMENT WITH YOU decided it would probably be better to put more mobs in that pile.

I've said before, fixing the server for a week isn't fixing the server at all.

Time to go bump my own useful thread.

[JayN]

If you dont mind me asking what upgrade do you need and what do you have currently.

the only good item off him

BCG

[Hailto]

If you dont mind me asking what upgrade do you need and what do you have currently.

BCG.

[Lazie]

I have no issues with compromise (see my unbiased post) but I think its absolutely hilarious that TMO and FE can "cut their losses" on 25% of the mobs they would normally take to divide amongst the rest of the server, then peddle their idea as the epitome of fairness.

What you don't seem to get is... TMO/FE-IB compete with each other. A guild in that competition could get less mobs a month with this arrangement than say a BDA or Taken. For Example Say BDA and Taken continue to kill Vox and Inny regularly as they were before. Then both those guilds split Gore and Talendor on the non priority list. THEN they get a week of uncontested competition on Trak/VS/FAY/SEV/CT/INNY/Vox/Naggy.

Taken or BDA could end up with more kills than FE-IB or TMO depending how the competition goes between those 2 guilds in a particular month. Now as I said I don't think this goes far enough but you guys saying it isn't fair are blind...A guild could get more kills in a month than one of those 2 with this system. I however would like to see a system that gives guilds that aren't hardcore and hasn't killed anything before more of an opportunity at a mob. Dunno if we will ever see it however.

[toosweet]

Hi, I never put in the effort but im here for my welfare check and obama phone.
Sincerely
Casual scum guild--we deserve it!

[Yinikren]

That was my concern. No way to really track legitimacy of new guilds that spring up as a result of this...

Plenty of ways to track the legitimacy of a new guild appearing our of nowhere.

This is why a weekly point system would work wonders.

[JayN]

only way i see pleasing casuals is no competition at all; instances please with lock out timers

[Hailto]

Time to go bump my own useful thread.

Goodluck with that.

[Obrae]

I think its a great proposal and the council will ensure that all details are ironed out and in time the agreement gets better for everyone.

[Yinikren]

Goodluck with that.

Thanks friend!

[Hitpoint]

That's the part I giggled the most, and that was also the first order of contention when someone WHO MADE THE AGREEMENT WITH YOU decided it would probably be better to put more mobs in that pile.

I've said before, fixing the server for a week isn't fixing the server at all.

Time to go bump my own useful thread.

I was wrong, there can be an agreement that screws us even more.

[-Catherin-]

Taken or BDA could end up with more kills than FE-IB or TMO depending how the competition goes between those 2 guilds in a particular month. Now as I said I don't think this goes far enough but you guys saying it isn't fair are blind...A guild could get more kills in a month than one of those 2 with this system. I however would like to see a system that gives guilds that aren't hardcore and hasn't killed anything before more of an opportunity at a mob. Dunno if we will ever see it however.

except once we do end up with more kills we become a "Rank A" and then get ground into carrion again just like old times. except now its even worse because we cant even get the mobs we normally could have gotten in the previous environment because of our new "rank"

[Razdeline]

What ever happened to Sloan's 2 hour rule? It was extremely simple, unbiased, and allows everyone to be on the same competitive playing field. The majority of people voted for it in a poll already.

Implement something simple now, and roll with it. If it sucks, keep the guild council and amend it later. Sadly, any type of rotational idea is not the answer. Killing competition in EQ raiding will kill the game itself.

The problem with raiding now is the deviation between top tier guilds and lower tier guilds. This means it is nearly impossible for guilds like BDA/Taken/Divinity to compete with top tier guilds on desired higher end raid targets. The 2 hour rule mitigates this level of deviation, however. Which ultimately puts everyone on a more balanced competitive field.

[Frieza_Prexus]

I think councils with authority are a BAD IDEA. Associations are fine, but investing authority leads to a UN situation, and those in power will want to exercise it, and those not in power will chafe under the system.

Any system chosen should be self-regulating. If there is ANY enforcement, the system chosen should be considered law and enforced by neutral decision makers. The GMs should function as judges, not the players.

[Hitpoint]

except once we do end up with more kills we become a "Rank A" and then get ground into carrion again just like old times. except now its even worse because we cant even get the mobs we normally could have gotten in the previous environment

Something like that can probably be negotiated. This is just a proposal after all. 60% instead of 40% to be category A. I don't know

[Derubael]

Plenty of ways to track the legitimacy of a new guild appearing our of nowhere.

This is why a weekly point system would work wonders.

So what if a current guild legitimately splits for whatever reason? Maybe half the guild doesn't hold with the other half's ideals anymore and wants out...?

Do they not get to raid? How do you tell if its legitimate?

What if TMO sticks all of it's alts in bob guild? the FBI? Knights? Evil Empire? how will you know whats a legitimate guild and what's not?

Can't just say there's 'plenty of ways' to track the legitimacy of a new guild. It's a lot harder than you think.

Again, if you all agree on a points system, no problem. But you'd better have a way to deal with this situation not if, but when, it arises.

[JayN]

except once we do end up with more kills we become a "Rank A" and then get ground into carrion again just like old times. except now its even worse because we cant even get the mobs we normally could have gotten in the previous environment

AKA you want to be treated unfairly unlike everyone else. no competition please!

[Bossman]

I love the responses of the vocal "hardcores". "Why don't we just give everybody epics?" "You want us to kill everything for you too?"

Just because we do not wish to compete at the retarded level of alt army poopsocking that you do does not mean that we do not wish to compete. GET IT THROUGH YOUR THICK SKULLS

[Autotune]

I think councils with authority are a BAD IDEA. Associations are fine, but investing authority leads to a UN situation, and those in power will want to exercise it, and those not in power will chafe under the system.

Any system chosen should be self-regulating. If there is ANY enforcement, the system chosen should be considered law and enforced by neutral decision makers. The GMs should function as judges, not the players.

I will act as Emperor of Project 1999.

All in favor?

[Yinikren]

What ever happened to Sloan's 2 hour rule? It was extremely simple, unbiased, and allows everyone to be on the same competitive playing field. The majority of people voted for it in a poll already.

Implement something simple now, and roll with it. If it sucks, keep the guild council and amend it later. Sadly, any type of rotational idea is not the answer. Killing competition in EQ raiding will kill the game itself.

The problem with raiding now is the deviation between top tier guilds and lower tier guilds. This means it is nearly impossible for guilds like BDA/Taken/Divinity to compete with top tier guilds on desired higher end raid targets. The 2 hour rule mitigates this level of deviation, however. Which ultimately puts everyone on a more balanced competitive field.

It was decided against because the second TMO got off suspension it would become a TMO/FE rotation, which is kinda sorta just a little what got us into this mess.

[Durka]

Plenty of ways to track the legitimacy of a new guild appearing our of nowhere.

This is why a weekly point system would work wonders.

Oh I really do like the point system, I am just afraid that the cunning of humans will get the best of us in the end. Someone will try it... Awareness is key! If suddenly <existing small guild name here> have an influx of lvl 60's, im pretty sure they magically got some alts from <insert guild name here> or a new guild pops up of lvl 1 toons that power to 60 and start <uberguild4> as an alt guild.

I hope officers from guilds will come to a good conclusion before the raid ban starts!

[Frieza_Prexus]

What ever happened to Sloan's 2 hour rule? It was extremely simple, unbiased, and allows everyone to be on the same competitive playing field. The majority of people voted for it in a poll already.
.

The 2 hour rule does not help casuals. It still requires tracking, it creates a defacto rotation, and the majority of the kills will still go to the guilds that go the extra mile.

No matter what, the 2 hour rule creates a system of rotation. Last killer must wait 2 hours? The 2nd guild gets it. Last 2 killers must wait 2 hours, the 3rd gets it. So on and so on. It becomes a rotation between the organizations that can field a raid at all hours.

[Hailto]

except once we do end up with more kills we become a "Rank A" and then get ground into carrion again just like old times. except now its even worse because we cant even get the mobs we normally could have gotten in the previous environment because of our new "rank"

So you want be be a special case and be exempt from both statuses? What are you getting at here. You're complaining about getting more kills.

[Lazie]

except once we do end up with more kills we become a "Rank A" and then get ground into carrion again just like old times. except now its even worse because we cant even get the mobs we normally could have gotten in the previous environment because of our new "rank"

That is one part of it that needs to be looked at. This is a proposal after all and not a final draft. Again I don't think it goes far enough myself.

[Nlaar]

I dont support your post in absolutely any form what so ever, and I have zero room to compromise on it. It is beyond missing the point and does absolutely NOTHING to address rogean's concerns about the raid scene and CSR incolvement.

Please read rogeans requests for a shared raid scene, with no CSR involvement and go back to the drawing board.

Sorry mate but all bets are off here, we should be friends but not one fuckin person seems to be taking Rogeans words seriously, and I wont take a clown like you fucking my leisure time with such a shit agreement. The 36 second DA stall bullshit takes the cake.

STALLING MOBS IS FUCKING RETARDED.

Do you have any comprehension of what Rogean wants? As it isnt one guild able to take ALL mobs on the server, and then a token scrap throw every month to the poor people.

Motec <Inglourious Basterds - but probably not for long>

[Hitpoint]

I love the responses of the vocal "hardcores". "Why don't we just give everybody epics?" "You want us to kill everything for you too?"

Just because we do not wish to compete at the retarded level of alt army poopsocking that you do does not mean that we do not wish to compete. GET IT THROUGH YOUR THICK SKULLS

So you don't have to then. For the listed mobs during the listed times.

[Thulack]

So you want be be a special case and be exempt from both statuses? What are you getting at here. You're complaining about getting more kills.

lol cause there would be "more" kills for any guild that got moved up to group a.

[Autotune]

So what if a current guild legitimately splits for whatever reason? Maybe half the guild doesn't hold with the other half's ideals anymore and wants out...?

Do they not get to raid? How do you tell if its legitimate?

What if TMO sticks all of it's alts in bob guild? the FBI? Knights? Evil Empire? how will you know whats a legitimate guild and what's not?

Can't just say there's 'plenty of ways' to track the legitimacy of a new guild. It's a lot harder than you think.

Again, if you all agree on a points system, no problem. But you'd better have a way to deal with this situation not if, but when, it arises.

You keep spouting this.

Let them split if they want legitimately. If they are skilled and will put in the time to be a successful smaller guild, fine.

If they throw their alts into another guild to circumvent the situation, they will be found out. No guild wants to harbor cheaters and face serious repercussions.

It's much easier than you think as long as the punishment is severe. The more severe the punishment, the less likely that it will ever bare fruit.

I'm surprised you're so narrow sighted.

[Mezzmur]

I will act as Emperor of Project 1999.

All in favor?

Dibs on Empress.

[Yinikren]

So what if a current guild legitimately splits for whatever reason? Maybe half the guild doesn't hold with the other half's ideals anymore and wants out...?

Do they not get to raid? How do you tell if its legitimate?

What if TMO sticks all of it's alts in bob guild? the FBI? Knights? Evil Empire? how will you know whats a legitimate guild and what's not?

Can't just say there's 'plenty of ways' to track the legitimacy of a new guild. It's a lot harder than you think.

Again, if you all agree on a points system, no problem. But you'd better have a way to deal with this situation not if, but when, it arises.

I don't think a point system would punish guilds that legitimately split, because the server wouldn't be flooded with guilds all of a sudden, we'd get one more. If TMO split into an elite faction that wants to compete like ATeam does with a minimalist way of thinking, more power to them. A point system like mine still means guilds have to compete with each other like they do now. There is just a cap that they would hit so target priority is more important.

Any guild that splits would compete with who they split from. The point system isn't guaranteed mobs - its a hard cap to limit guilds from taking too much of the mob pie.

I'm still all for a guild having to be established for a few months before they can get in on the points, anyway.

[JayN]

You keep spouting this.

Let them split if they want legitimately. If they are skilled and will put in the time to be a successful smaller guild, fine.

If they throw their alts into another guild to circumvent the situation, they will be found out. No guild wants to harbor cheaters and face serious repercussions.

It's much easier than you think as long as the punishment is severe. The more severe the punishment, the less likely that it will ever bare fruit.

I'm surprised you're so narrow sighted.

They'd have to take a hands on approach then, the one they were so detrimentally against.

they need to get involved

[Turp_SmokinPurp]

Same thing is accomplished with a point system, and better. you still get your "competition" and the little guys still have a chance, whether you consider us a Rank A, B, or those you don't even consider worthy to have a rank to even be represented.

Seen enough. im against this IM in favor of a points system.
So..
After all the talk on the point system I checked it out an read threw 12 pages of comments. The thing is dragon socialism 101. You obviously want a full blown rotation so just come out an ask for it Catherin.
I see the hardcore giving compromises, adding inny, adding it a VP kill , not attempt. Talks of adding a VP dragon to the freebie list every month.
But they haven't made 1 thing appealing to the hardcore over on that casual "point" system thread. There is no competition with a point system wtf are you talking about? you have guilds on there that have never even attempted to raid before and they get the same points as the hardcore. There is 0 competition in that and 0 compromise from you guys. Seems to me You just want to have free mobs for your guild , and that has been the whole problem from the start . Everyone thats on this point system idea should just push for a GM rotation. Because you will never get a hardcore raider to agree to some shit system like that.

No hardcore is saying yes to that point system or even trying to work with it.
At least some of the casuals are liking this idea, and trying to work with it.Getting some things changed an added in. An hopefully it will attract you at some point.
Or something else will be redrafted an bring the 2 ideas together in a more Taken friendly fashion (Xasten plz get on it lol)
Than i seen this...

I'll make this clear too.

Im more than willing to be raid suspended for a week, or a month, or longer, if that's what its going to take for a proper agreement for everyone. This doesn't hurt me. This doesn't hurt the smaller guilds. Taken looses the respectable number of targets we get but it also gives us a break from this toxicity in the promise of something better in the future for all of us.

Not sure if I can say that about everyone in the top Guilds though so you had better think about that.
TL DR If you do not /bow to my plans I will keep everyone raid suspended.
Well pretty sure this will go no where. No hardcore is going to compromise to some socialist dragon plan. Come up with something better or work this proposal more to your liking. But the point system is complete shit at the moment and ripe for abuse.

[Hailto]

lol cause there would be "more" kills for any guild that got moved up to group a.

You think taken normally gets 40 percent of the mobs then? News to me.

[Derubael]

You keep spouting this.

Let them split if they want legitimately. If they are skilled and will put in the time to be a successful smaller guild, fine.

If they throw their alts into another guild to circumvent the situation, they will be found out. No guild wants to harbor cheaters and face serious repercussions.

It's much easier than you think as long as the punishment is severe. The more severe the punishment, the less likely that it will ever bare fruit.

I'm surprised you're so narrow sighted.

I never said it wasn't possible. It's just more difficult to keep track of a 100 alts than people are making it sound. If people want to go with a point system, that's fine with me. Just make sure you've got a plan in place for determining shenanigans.

[Autotune]

They'd have to take a hands on approach then, the one they were so detrimentally against.

they need to get involved

Only when it comes to guilds breaking raiding/server rules, which is what they are supposed to do any how. The only difference is the players are making rules to which they are supposed to follow.

Is literally everyone here dense as a brick wall?

[baramur]

Seems like alot are not grasping this, by the way i read their comments.
Its says for 3 weeks tmo/ib/fe will not engage inny, sev, maestro, gore, tal. This opens up around 23 mobs they will no longer engage at all. Then 1 week a month they will not engage ct, trak, vs. This is a huve concession of mobs, also there is nothing that says you cant challenge the A guilds, it just says the A guilds cannot challenge you.

[goshozal]

I never said it wasn't possible. It's just more difficult to keep track of a 100 alts than people are making it sound. If people want to go with a point system, that's fine with me. Just make sure you've got a plan in place for determining shenanigans.

Everyone should have to name their alts like Snacks and I do.

How long will that take you to enforce, Deru? :p

[jaybone]

So what if a current guild legitimately splits for whatever reason? Maybe half the guild doesn't hold with the other half's ideals anymore and wants out...?

Do they not get to raid? How do you tell if its legitimate?

What if TMO sticks all of it's alts in bob guild? the FBI? Knights? Evil Empire? how will you know whats a legitimate guild and what's not?

Can't just say there's 'plenty of ways' to track the legitimacy of a new guild. It's a lot harder than you think.

Again, if you all agree on a points system, no problem. But you'd better have a way to deal with this situation not if, but when, it arises.

Easiest way to solve this derubael is to wipe the server and give a true classic experience with expansion and patches released on actual timelines. 3 years kunark has ruined this server. I understand there are a handful of people working on velious and these things take a lot of time and no one can fault you guys for that.

[Razdeline]

The 2 hour rule does not help casuals. It still requires tracking, it creates a defacto rotation, and the majority of the kills will still go to the guilds that go the extra mile.

No matter what, the 2 hour rule creates a system of rotation. Last killer must wait 2 hours? The 2nd guild gets it. Last 2 killers must wait 2 hours, the 3rd gets it. So on and so on. It becomes a rotation between the organizations that can field a raid at all hours.

The 2 hour rule would work if killing a mob only kills that guilds potential for it's next spawn. That was my understanding of it. There are lower tier guilds that are going to fail on Trak, etc. for 2+ hours, or not even notice it is up because they are not willing to put in the work of the "Category A" guilds.

Which is also something that should not be undermined here. Guilds like IB/FE/TMO get to where they are at ultimately through time spent working towards it. An agreement needs to be simple, and can not cater to people not willing to work hard towards reaching these desired raid targets. Free loot is not the answer and would be worse than a rotation based on the raid design of this game.

[Happyfeet]

You keep spouting this.

Let them split if they want legitimately. If they are skilled and will put in the time to be a successful smaller guild, fine.

If they throw their alts into another guild to circumvent the situation, they will be found out. No guild wants to harbor cheaters and face serious repercussions.

It's much easier than you think as long as the punishment is severe. The more severe the punishment, the less likely that it will ever bare fruit.

I'm surprised you're so narrow sighted.

So if myself and 15 others leave TMO and join Europa, I guarantee we'll get targets. What is to stop this? We're not cheating, you can't prove we didn't leave for a legit reason. We'll take our loots, add it in with TMO's, done deal. Shit even just VP key all the Europa people and kill some Xygoz/SW while we're at it.

Deru is 100% right, I think that point shit is TERRIBLE. Both yinikren and Beruwhatever's posts are just absolute trash.

[JayN]

Seems like alot are not grasping this, by the way i read their comments.
Its says for 3 weeks tmo/ib/fe will not engage inny, sev, maestro, gore, tal. This opens up around 23 mobs they will no longer engage at all. Then 1 week a month they will not engage ct, trak, vs. This is a huve concession of mobs, also there is nothing that says you cant challenge the A guilds, it just says the A guilds cannot challenge you.

smart guy who gets it, this for some reason isnt even close to acceptable for some.

I feel instances will only please some people and letting them hold everyone hostage is hardly fair; Staff needs to come in and really take a stand ON WHAT EXACTLY THEY WANT PLEASE

[Hitpoint]

Seems like alot are not grasping this, by the way i read their comments.
Its says for 3 weeks tmo/ib/fe will not engage inny, sev, maestro, gore, tal. This opens up around 23 mobs they will no longer engage at all. Then 1 week a month they will not engage ct, trak, vs. This is a huve concession of mobs, also there is nothing that says you cant challenge the A guilds, it just says the A guilds cannot challenge you.

Seems what we need is a point system where lord bob guild gets the same cap on kills as TMO. Because that's fair. Anything less is insulting.

[-Catherin-]

So..
After all the talk on the point system I checked it out an read threw 12 pages of comments. The thing is dragon socialism 101. You obviously want a full blown rotation so just come out an ask for it Catherin.
I see the hardcore giving compromises, adding inny, adding it a VP kill , not attempt. Talks of adding a VP dragon to the freebie list every month.
But they haven't made 1 thing appealing to the hardcore over on that casual "point" system thread. There is no competition with a point system wtf are you talking about? you have guilds on there that have never even attempted to raid before and they get the same points as the hardcore. There is 0 competition in that and 0 compromise from you guys. Seems to me You just want to have free mobs for your guild , and that has been the whole problem from the start . Everyone thats on this point system idea should just push for a GM rotation. Because you will never get a hardcore raider to agree to some shit system like that.

No hardcore is saying yes to that point system or even trying to work with it.
At least some of the casuals are liking this idea, and trying to work with it.Getting some things changed an added in. An hopefully it will attract you at some point.
Or something else will be redrafted an bring the 2 ideas together in a more Taken friendly fashion (Xasten plz get on it lol)
Than i seen this...


TL DR If you do not /bow to my plans I will keep everyone raid suspended.
Well pretty sure this will go no where. No hardcore is going to compromise to some socialist dragon plan. Come up with something better or work this proposal more to your liking. But the point system is complete shit at the moment and ripe for abuse.

don't take what I say out of context and you will also see that I did not agree with the point system as it was currently set in stone, but a variation of it. I think its a great start to a real solution. nice try though scream socialism more

http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=132779

while the point values are not set in stone. I highly support the overall idea and those that are not happy with this proposal should really give it a look.

reposted for you since you apparently missed this part

[Autotune]

I never said it wasn't possible. It's just more difficult to keep track of a 100 alts than people are making it sound. If people want to go with a point system, that's fine with me. Just make sure you've got a plan in place for determining shenanigans.

It is difficult to keep track of 100 alts, if those 100 alts are all shady people. However, each guild here has great stand up people who are willing to follow the rules (more of them than the shady players). Xasten is a prime example of this and there are many more in TMO. There are tons in IB, FE, Taken, BDA, and so on. I'd highly doubt it that a single guild could faction off their alts into a new guild (considering it takes GMs to make a guild) without some non-cheaters realizing and stepping forward.

Why would they step forward? Equal punishment for the new and the existing guild. Is that harsh? Yes. Is that something new? No, see TMO's latest punishment.

Either the good players will shed the cheaters or the cheaters will risk another Froovy/Internode situation and cause not 1, but 2 guilds to be banned.

In Uthgaard's name I do pray, let these punishments be swift and severe!

[Visual]

I was actually enjoying the competitive raiding landscape between the top 4 guilds before the whole froovy fiasco. You guys were actually putting up a good fight.

Looks like we will be seeing far less of that on the horizon and that is a god damn shame. Was fun while it lasted.

[Durka]

I never said it wasn't possible. It's just more difficult to keep track of a 100 alts than people are making it sound. If people want to go with a point system, that's fine with me. Just make sure you've got a plan in place for determining shenanigans.

Its the alts thats the issue as Derubael has pointed out. I am not at all focused on mains, I am sure most top guilds will keep their core primary players. Alts will disappear from those guild tags and magically appear in other guilds.

How can this be tracked / managed?

I do still fully support the point system - I just dont see an easy manageable way to track legitimacy of new guilds or existing small guilds getting an influx.

[Frieza_Prexus]

The 2 hour rule would work if killing a mob only kills that guilds potential for it's next spawn. That was my understanding of it. There are lower tier guilds that are going to fail on Trak, etc. for 2+ hours, or not even notice it is up because they are not willing to put in the work of the "Category A" guilds.

Which is also something that should not be undermined here. Guilds like IB/FE/TMO get to where they are at ultimately through time spent working towards it. An agreement needs to be simple, and can not cater to people not willing to work hard towards reaching these desired raid targets. Free loot is not the answer and would be worse than a rotation based on the raid design of this game.

The main complaints presented from the casual community are 1) Uber Guild dominance & 2) the need to track.

The 2 hour rule does very little to prevent the tracking issue. If Sev pops at 6 AM, the casuals will not have a meaningful shot at the mob.

Secondly, preventing one guild from killing for 2 hours enables the second guild a free kill. If you prevent the last two killers from competing for 2 hours, the third strong guild is essentially defaulted the kill. It's simple economics. If that third (or fourth, or fifth) guild is given an artificial advantage towards a scarce resource, they will capitalize on it. Again, those in power at any given time dominate preventing meaningful participation from those are are not, and cannot be, hardcore.

[CodyF86]

Everyone should have to name their alts like Snacks and I do.


Aaradin
Aaradone Gated (haha)
Aarawubbin

Only way to roll. :)

Aaradin
The A-Team

[Bossman]

So..
After all the talk on the point system I checked it out an read threw 12 pages of comments. The thing is dragon socialism 101. You obviously want a full blown rotation so just come out an ask for it Catherin.
I see the hardcore giving compromises, adding inny, adding it a VP kill , not attempt. Talks of adding a VP dragon to the freebie list every month.
But they haven't made 1 thing appealing to the hardcore over on that casual "point" system thread. There is no competition with a point system wtf are you talking about? you have guilds on there that have never even attempted to raid before and they get the same points as the hardcore. There is 0 competition in that and 0 compromise from you guys. Seems to me You just want to have free mobs for your guild , and that has been the whole problem from the start . Everyone thats on this point system idea should just push for a GM rotation. Because you will never get a hardcore raider to agree to some shit system like that.

No hardcore is saying yes to that point system or even trying to work with it.
At least some of the casuals are liking this idea, and trying to work with it.Getting some things changed an added in. An hopefully it will attract you at some point.
Or something else will be redrafted an bring the 2 ideas together in a more Taken friendly fashion (Xasten plz get on it lol)
Than i seen this...


TL DR If you do not /bow to my plans I will keep everyone raid suspended.
Well pretty sure this will go no where. No hardcore is going to compromise to some socialist dragon plan. Come up with something better or work this proposal more to your liking. But the point system is complete shit at the moment and ripe for abuse.

Every proposal that you don't agree with is socialism. Clearly you didn't actually read the points proposal, maybe he should have put pictures in so you can actually comprehend it. There is competition.

[DrKvothe]

Design a system where FE/IB and TMO get 25% or less (not 67% or more) of all non-VP targets and it might get some attention. There's absolutely no reason after 2 years of domination FE/IB and TMO should get VP and any more non-VP raid targets than anyone else. Cap all guilds at 1 kill of each target per month. Hell, it's better than this shit proposal.

[JayN]

"Either the good players will shed the cheaters or the cheaters will risk another Froovy/Internode situation and cause not 1, but 2 guilds to be banned."

or a couple of scheming asshole could screw a whole lot of people; even worse next time!

[Yinikren]

I'm butthurt, someone called me a faggot. :(

But seriously, a proposal like mine, on top of being easily policed and enforced, would open up raiding for at least 4-5 guilds on the server. Which is, y'know, what the CSR team wanted.

I'll come right out and say that you elite raiders don't like my idea because you're losing more mobs than you think you should. I don't expect you to like it. I'm not making the system to help you kill more shit.

[Autotune]

So if myself and 15 others leave TMO and join Europa, I guarantee we'll get targets. What is to stop this? We're not cheating, you can't prove we didn't leave for a legit reason. We'll take our loots, add it in with TMO's, done deal. Shit even just VP key all the Europa people and kill some Xygoz/SW while we're at it.

Deru is 100% right, I think that point shit is TERRIBLE. Both yinikren and Beruwhatever's posts are just absolute trash.

Give up your droppable loot, who cares. However, when you go to give that ex guild of your some no-drops, you'll be seen as circumventing the raiding rules and have both of your guilds banned.

Welcome to the new raiding rules.

[Hitpoint]

There's absolutely no reason after 2 years of domination FE/IB should get VP and any more non-VP raid targets than anyone else.

If fighting a losing battle for a few months is somehow the same thing as dominating for two years then yea I agree with you. Otherwise, I have no idea what you're talking about.

[Hailto]

It's a good thing your opinion means fuck all in the grand scheme of things isn't it Yinikren?

[Pheer]

you're comparing a single guild to half of the server.

Just stop replying now.

First of all you can hardly call a few guilds half the server, but even if it were half does it make it ok for one half of the server to refuse to work with the others, as long as its the casual side with the loaded gun? Everyone keeps talking about cooperation and good will and such when in reality they've decided what they want and will accept nothing less.

Also why is a person who is no longer even in a guild casual/hardcore or otherwise that Im aware of trying to tell me not to post in a thread about guild raiding? Is RNF really so slow right now that you have to come in here and stir the pot?

I believe that's what this is all about (the discussing compromise part.) I think people are making plenty clear that this proposal is not compromise. It's no different than how the raid scene has already been held hostage for the last two years, except this time you guys do not have sweeping authority over what happens. If you consider that holding the raid scene hostage then that's your opinion. Must suck. Welcome to what we have dealt with for years.

People are not going to fall over themselves and rush to an agreement that doesn't change much for the better, in the fear of a suspension because that would be almost like any other day for us anyways.

This is exactly the kind of cancerous attitude you've all been claiming you want to get rid of. This entire discussion has shifted from finding a system that everyone can live with to the casual guilds feeling like theyre in the midst of some kind of e-revolution where now THEYRE the ones who make the rules and to hell with the "oppressive hardcore guilds"

[Seltius]

I think epics should come along with a height requirement

You must be this tall to turn in. Maybe put the turn in mob on a platform so anyone under a certain height cant reach it?

_
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TOOO SHORT!

Really im joking! Seriously..

But am I? maybe short people should automatically get handed to them for being vertically challenged.

[Autotune]

I say just take the names of everyone here posting ways that they would try to skirt the new rules and then just ban them when they do anything remotely close to it, problem solved.

However, I'm sure they'd be more willing to fall in line with it than what they suggest they are doing. Please stop making up fake situations that the majority of the people aren't going to attempt. These mass amount of shady people you keep creating simply don't exist

[Lazie]

Design a system where FE/IB and TMO get 25% or less (not 67% or more) of all non-VP targets and it might get some attention. There's absolutely no reason after 2 years of domination FE/IB should get VP and any more non-VP raid targets than anyone else. Cap all guilds at 1 kill of each target per month. Hell, it's better than this shit proposal.

Oh wow.. You guys are actually lumping TMO and FE-IB together now as far as kills per month as if FE-IB benefited from all those TMO kills. What alternate reality is this ?

[JayN]

I say just take the names of everyone here posting ways that they would try to skirt the new rules and then just ban them when they do anything remotely close to it, problem solved.

However, I'm sure they'd be more willing to fall in line with it than what they suggest they are doing. Please stop making up fake situations that the majority of the people aren't going to attempt. These mass amount of shady people you keep creating simply don't exist

Lets hope the really shady guys are not quite...

..
.

[DrKvothe]

If fighting a losing battle for a few months is somehow the same thing as dominating for two years then yea I agree with you. Otherwise, I have no idea what you're talking about.

I left out an 'and TMO'.

[Hailto]

Oh wow.. You guys are actually lumping TMO and FE-IB together now as far as kills per month as if FE-IB benefited from all those TMO kills. What alternate reality is this ?

Reality of a 54 shaman main.

[Barkingturtle]

If we really want a revolution, everyone needs to stop logging in until staff can figure out how to implement repops.

Every solution we come up with is flawed because it's based on guilds and players instead of the one entity that doesn't scheme for every advantage -- mobs. You can't solve players, but you can solve mobs.

[Happyfeet]

Give up your droppable loot, who cares. However, when you go to give that ex guild of your some no-drops, you'll be seen as circumventing the raiding rules and have both of your guilds banned.

Welcome to the new raiding rules.

Who in the world is going to police that? Huge holes in your logic.

[Yinikren]

It's a good thing your opinion means fuck all in the grand scheme of things isn't it Yinikren?

You're right, that's why my system has the biggest following of people who could make it work while we are here shitting up this proposal for being a sad idea.

Who the fuck are you again?

[DrKvothe]

Fast posting means lots of mistakes.

[Hailto]

Who the fuck are you again?

Please tell me about your e-status.

[-Catherin-]

This is exactly the kind of cancerous attitude you've all been claiming you want to get rid of. This entire discussion has shifted from finding a system that everyone can live with to the casual guilds feeling like theyre in the midst of some kind of e-revolution where now THEYRE the ones who make the rules and to hell with the "oppressive hardcore guilds"

Way to really take it out of context. never once said I was against compromise. but i'll say it again im not going to jump at what I view to be a flawed one just because a raid suspension is looming. that doesn't fix anything. I pointed out the truths of the situation we are all in.

You sound upset about this. How about this: current proposal is not going to be accepted most likely. So how bout we work on something else that may work? I already said what I support. doesn't mean I couldn't be convinced to change my mind if you have a better idea.

[Autotune]

Who in the world is going to police that? Huge holes in your logic.

Oh, I'm sorry, I thought we were making up shit that would most likely never happen.

[Splorf22]

This is exactly the kind of cancerous attitude you've all been claiming you want to get rid of. This entire discussion has shifted from finding a system that everyone can live with to the casual guilds feeling like theyre in the midst of some kind of e-revolution where now THEYRE the ones who make the rules and to hell with the "oppressive hardcore guilds"

This is just not true. The TMO/FE proposal is borderline disingenous imo (you can't poopsock but we can camp out alts, AND DON'T GO NEAR VP YOU FUCKING CASUAL SCUM). I think those provisions soured a lot of people.

[jaybone]

How about you take an indefinite break from anon trolling every thread with your tinfoil hat RMT accusations, and let the big boys work something out here?

Sorry, i know you have to put food on the table.

[JayN]

Oh, I'm sorry, I thought we were making up shit that would most likely never happen.

touche

[Xadion]

Design a system where FE/IB and TMO get 25% or less (not 67% or more) of all non-VP targets and it might get some attention. There's absolutely no reason after 2 years of domination FE/IB and TMO should get VP and any more non-VP raid targets than anyone else. Cap all guilds at 1 kill of each target per month. Hell, it's better than this shit proposal.

please someone tell me this dude is trolling and got lost on his way to RnF

and IB + FE should be 1 guild.

carry on

[Hitpoint]

You're right, that's why my system has the biggest following of people who could make it work while we are here shitting up this proposal for being a sad idea.

Who the fuck are you again?

I don't have time to read your entire thread. But you're basically proposing that AG and TMO both have 100 points right? Are you flexible on this? Somewhere in this giant thread do you say that it's actually fair for TMO to have more like..400? That would lead me to believe your proposal could actually make sense.

[Autotune]

I'll tell you what, give me a limited access GM account and I'll police 80% of the raids for Rogean/Sirken.

I have the free time again for the next few months, more than enough to get the new system rolling, and when I see it take place I'll forward it to Sirken.

After shady people like Happyfeet are banned on all his shady ass mains/alts, we can finally move forward with the non raid rule circumventing shitbags.

[DrKvothe]

TMO's advantage with the point system is that it gets first choice on where to spend its points. If it wants mostly VP loot, it gets mostly VP loot. Azure Guard can't really make that decision. Thanks to competition.

[Yinikren]

Why would I give TMO 500 points? You guys compete harder.

Most guilds aren't going to reach their point cap each week. Its just a limit in case someone else does.

Your guild chooses where to spend its points. You want to kill more mobs, kill cheaper shit.

[MaksimMazor]

Delicious BDA tears

[Pheer]

This is just not true. The TMO/FE proposal is borderline disingenous imo (you can't poopsock but we can camp out alts, AND DON'T GO NEAR VP YOU FUCKING CASUAL SCUM). I think those provisions soured a lot of people.

And just as alterations to address those concerns began being discussed everyone started raging about how shitty they felt the proposal was and demanding everyone focus on this point system or else they'll refuse to cooperate.

[Lazie]

And just as alterations to address those concerns began being discussed everyone started raging about how shitty they felt the proposal was and demanding everyone focus on this point system or else they'll refuse to cooperate.

I don't think they understand yet that point system will never be the majority either. People are going to have to meet in the middle. NO ONE is going to get EVERYTHING they want here.

[Yinikren]

This shitty proposal kind of did it to itself to be honest.

One system is fair, unbiased, and easy to police. The other system clearly favors the top end and is overly convoluted and full of problems. You can decide which.

[goshozal]

I figured out what was wrong with this proposal. No spreadsheets. Gotta have spreadsheets.

[Hailto]

Just give BDA/Taken the ability to GM spawn no drop items and be done with it. They can get their pixels and the rest of the server can have fun competing.

[Yinikren]

There ya go.

[Scoresby]

I don't have time to read your entire thread. But you're basically proposing that AG and TMO both have 100 points right? Are you flexible on this? Somewhere in this giant thread do you say that it's actually fair for TMO to have more like..400? That would lead me to believe your proposal could actually make sense.

Are you being dense on purpose? Every guild gets the same amount of points, but not every guild will get kills to use up their points. It merely forces guilds to focus on targets that matter to them. You still would have to out compete everyone for the raid target, just can't exceed your point limit by killing any and everything. It's pretty damned simple.

The reward you get for being top tier is the best items, but the concession is the raid scene opens to a significantly larger playerbase....which was a requirement of the agreement to begin with.

[Hitpoint]

This shitty proposal kind of did it to itself to be honest.

One system is fair, unbiased, and easy to police. The other system clearly favors the top end and is overly convoluted and full of problems. You can decide which.

I still don't see how its fair that those who put in the most time and effort get allotted the same amount of mobs as those who choose to put in very little.

[-Catherin-]

And just as alterations to address those concerns began being discussed everyone started raging about how shitty they felt the proposal was and demanding everyone focus on this point system or else they'll refuse to cooperate.

nobody is refusing to compromise. unless in your mind not agreeing with this current proposal is a complete refusal to compromise. that's really reaching

[Pheer]

I don't think they understand yet that point system will never be the majority either. People are going to have to meet in the middle. NO ONE is going to get EVERYTHING they want here.



I don't understand why people have such a hardon for this point system. Its still possible for most of the casual guilds to never see a VS, Trak, or CT kill ever again depending on the more hardcore guilds' mob priority. Especially if IB/FE ever decided to part ways amidst such a system. Also what stops players from hardcore guilds apping their lesser known alts into other guilds for additional chances at loot once their main guild is done cleaning out their priority targets? Stealin and Derubael were debating about core groups of raiders splintering off from guilds to game the system when all they really have to do is slip their alts into a guild like BDA/Taken/Divinity and invest their time in whichever guild is after the most targets on that player's personal priority list.

What if for example draco is on low priority for a lot of guilds and one guild in particular has made it one of their main focuses to get as many BCGs as possible. Why not just app a caster alt into that guild and try to score a BCG for my main eventually since my main guild isnt prioritizing that mob anymore?

[Splorf22]

And just as alterations to address those concerns began being discussed everyone started raging about how shitty they felt the proposal was and demanding everyone focus on this point system or else they'll refuse to cooperate.

I have not been doing this, and I think any thread in server chat was doomed to failure regardless.

[Happyfeet]

I'll tell you what, give me a limited access GM account and I'll police 80% of the raids for Rogean/Sirken.

I have the free time again for the next few months, more than enough to get the new system rolling, and when I see it take place I'll forward it to Sirken.

After shady people like Happyfeet are banned on all his shady ass mains/alts, we can finally move forward with the non raid rule circumventing shitbags.

Wow, who have you become? I was giving a good example of how to get around that shitbag idea and you call me shady? Go back to RNF Stealin. It's a terrible plan with no way to implement it. Call me whatever you want, but I can read a bad idea when I see one paaaaaaal.

[Autotune]

I don't think they understand yet that point system will never be the majority either. People are going to have to meet in the middle. NO ONE is going to get EVERYTHING they want here.

Actually, it seems the majority of every guild is siding more towards the point system than FE & TMO's system. I'd think if IB stepped forward and made something more toward the point system or agreed to something like the point system than that would be the majority of guilds accepting a new system, the only hold back would be FE & TMO. Who is to say that the server and staff wouldn't move forward without those two guilds if all the others were in favor?

[radditsu]

This shitty proposal kind of did it to itself to be honest.

One system is fair, unbiased, and easy to police. The other system clearly favors the top end and is overly convoluted and full of problems. You can decide which.

Yup point system is fair. But you are doing nothing to help it. Your incessant posting probably killed any goodwill it had...and I LIKE the idea. Jesus Christ

[Hitpoint]

Are you being dense on purpose? Every guild gets the same amount of points, but not every guild will get kills to use up their points. it merely forces guilds to focus on targets that matter to them. You still would have to out compete everyone for the raid target, just can't exceed your point limit by killing any and everything. It's pretty darned simple.

The reward you get for being top tier is the best items, but the concession is the raid scene opens to a significantly larger playerbase....which was a requirement of the agreement to begin with.

So then half the people posting in this thread that think it is absurd and insulting that they should have to track and park, are still going to have to track and park. I don't see how that changes. And the top guilds are going to choose the same mobs all the time probably. We're going to end up with smaller guilds picking up scraps, not unlike this proposal.

[radditsu]

Actually, it seems the majority of every guild is siding more towards the point system than FE & TMO's system. I'd think if IB stepped forward and made something more toward the point system or agreed to something like the point system than that would be the majority of guilds accepting a new system, the only hold back would be FE & TMO. Who is to say that the server and staff wouldn't move forward without those two guilds if all the others were in favor?

See my flat point system idea for concessions to hardcore raiders.

[Autotune]

Wow, who have you become? I was giving a good example of how to get around that shitbag idea and you call me shady? Go back to RNF Stealin. It's a terrible plan with no way to implement it. Call me whatever you want, but I can read a bad idea when I see one paaaaaaal.

That's exactly my point happyfeet. You aren't like that and you wouldn't stand for it even if you didn't agree with the system. The example you gave is easily defeated because people like you exist who wouldn't do something shady just because you don't agree with the new rules. I'm almost positive you'd test the new system and then try to change it or you might actually find that the a points system isn't actually that bad as long as it's weighted correctly.

[Yinikren]

I don't understand why people have such a hardon for this point system. Its still possible for most of the casual guilds to never see a VS, Trak, or CT kill ever again depending on the more hardcore guilds' mob priority. Especially if IB/FE ever decided to part ways amidst such a system. Also what stops players from hardcore guilds apping their lesser known alts into other guilds for additional chances at loot once their main guild is done cleaning out their priority targets? Stealin and Derubael were debating about core groups of raiders splintering off from guilds to game the system when all they really have to do is slip their alts into a guild like BDA/Taken/Divinity and invest their time in whichever guild is after the most targets on that player's personal priority list.

What if for example draco is on low priority for a lot of guilds and one guild in particular has made it one of their main focuses to get as many BCGs as possible. Why not just app a caster alt into that guild and try to score a BCG for my main eventually since my main guild isnt prioritizing that mob anymore?

1.) because my guild watches out for shit like that.

2.) most of the server, in fact, are not assholes.

3.) we don't care about engaging VS every week. But the server cares when you kill VS, and Trak, and Talendor, and Sev, and Gore, and Inny, and CT, and Draco, and Fay in the same week. There's the issue and my system fixes that. Pick the damn targets you need, and if you miss them better luck next week.

[-Catherin-]

tracking and parking will ALWAYS been necessary with the variance. whatever system we end up agreeing on doesn't change that unless it was a flat out rotation that included everyone. And that isn't going to happen. And before someone accuses me of being a rotation socialist again, id like to point out im not in support of it happening either :p

[Autotune]

Yup point system is fair. But you are doing nothing to help it. Your incessant posting probably killed any goodwill it had...and I LIKE the idea. Jesus Christ

Definitely.

[Yinikren]

Yup point system is fair. But you are doing nothing to help it. Your incessant posting probably killed any goodwill it had...and I LIKE the idea. Jesus Christ

I'm just attempting to keep my side of the argument. Sorry for being bored at work. :p

[Daldolma]

How about instead of creating a system that apportions raid mobs based on the same non-classic ability to mobilize 30 camped alts at 4AM, with leftovers being handed out charity-style on a percentage basis to guilds unwilling to compete, we fix the horribly non-classic mechanics and CSR of the endgame?

No socking, no camped alts, and vastly reduced variance. Make guilds actually race to the mobs once they spawn, without a prohibitively insane variance that requires round-the-clock tracking. When you have guilds racing from ZI and having to clear their way instead of just racing to character select, you'll have a natural spread based on legitimate competition instead of rewarding time inputs and sheer size.

Fixing this with "agreements" is just socialism. Fix the mechanics and the rules and you'll have legitimate competition and fair access for all guilds.

[goshozal]

Sorry, i know you have to put food on the table.

My kids had McDonald's for Christmas because of you jerks.

[citizen1080]

I will act as Emperor of Project 1999.

All in favor?

Bob for Prez

[goshozal]

How about instead of creating a system that apportions raid mobs based on the same non-classic ability to mobilize 30 camped alts at 4AM, with leftovers being handed out charity-style on a percentage basis to guilds unwilling to compete, we fix the horribly non-classic mechanics and CSR of the endgame?

No socking, no camped alts, and vastly reduced variance. Make guilds actually race to the mobs once they spawn, without a prohibitively insane variance that requires round-the-clock tracking. When you have guilds racing from ZI and having to clear their way instead of just racing to character select, you'll have a natural spread based on legitimate competition instead of rewarding time inputs and sheer size.

Fixing this with "agreements" is just socialism. Fix the mechanics and the rules and you'll have legitimate competition and fair access for all guilds.

Staff have stated on multiple occasions that they aren't fixing the mechanics. See the repops thread.

[Gnomersy]

Points system with all current raiding guilds.

One expansion slot becomes available every 3 months.
Non-members of original agreement must go through a vetting process from "guild coalition" to receive said expansion slot.
Expansion is not mandatory.
Need super majority from coalition ie 2/3 to join.

[Hailto]

How about instead of creating a system that apportions raid mobs based on the same non-classic ability to mobilize 30 camped alts at 4AM, with leftovers being handed out charity-style on a percentage basis to guilds unwilling to compete, we fix the horribly non-classic mechanics and CSR of the endgame?

No socking, no camped alts, and vastly reduced variance. Make guilds actually race to the mobs once they spawn, without a prohibitively insane variance that requires round-the-clock tracking. When you have guilds racing from ZI and having to clear their way instead of just racing to character select, you'll have a natural spread based on legitimate competition instead of rewarding time inputs and sheer size.

Fixing this with "agreements" is just socialism. Fix the mechanics and the rules and you'll have legitimate competition and fair access for all guilds.

Reasonable post, but you're forgetting the people that are having the biggest problem with this are upset because they want free uncontested mobs, not a more fair competitive playing field.

[sanforce]

Just give BDA/Taken the ability to GM spawn no drop items and be done with it. They can get their pixels and the rest of the server can have fun competing.

I like this idea. Let the real guilds compete, give "Tier B" whatever items they want outside of VP loot.

[Scoresby]

So then half the people posting in this thread that think it is absurd and insulting that they should have to track and park, are still going to have to track and park. I don't see how that changes. And the top guilds are going to choose the same mobs all the time probably. We're going to end up with smaller guilds picking up scraps, not unlike this proposal.

I totally agree, that happens in both systems. Points are readily adaptable (I.e. simple) come Velious though and there is no artificial barrier between tier A and tier B.

[Pheer]

nobody is refusing to compromise. unless in your mind not agreeing with this current proposal is a complete refusal to compromise. that's really reaching

Seriously? You just posted this earlier:

I'll make this clear too.

Im more than willing to be raid suspended for a week, or a month, or longer, if that's what its going to take for a proper agreement for everyone. This doesn't hurt me. This doesn't hurt the smaller guilds. Taken looses the respectable number of targets we get but it also gives us a break from this toxicity in the promise of something better in the future for all of us.

Not sure if I can say that about everyone in the top Guilds though so you had better think about that.

Please tell me how that can be interpreted as anything other than a refusal to cooperate/compromise in order to pressure guilds towards a system of your personal preference. Even the last sentence alone comes off as a threat.

[Lazie]

I don't understand why people have such a hardon for this point system. Its still possible for most of the casual guilds to never see a VS, Trak, or CT kill ever again depending on the more hardcore guilds' mob priority. Especially if IB/FE ever decided to part ways amidst such a system. Also what stops players from hardcore guilds apping their lesser known alts into other guilds for additional chances at loot once their main guild is done cleaning out their priority targets? Stealin and Derubael were debating about core groups of raiders splintering off from guilds to game the system when all they really have to do is slip their alts into a guild like BDA/Taken/Divinity and invest their time in whichever guild is after the most targets on that player's personal priority list.

What if for example draco is on low priority for a lot of guilds and one guild in particular has made it one of their main focuses to get as many BCGs as possible. Why not just app a caster alt into that guild and try to score a BCG for my main eventually since my main guild isnt prioritizing that mob anymore?

All the point system will do is limit the top 2 guilds to engage mobs and give the next 2 in line more mobs. On paper it looks great but it would just be a redistribution of wealth between the current 4 guilds already killing targets weekly.

[-Catherin-]

http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=132779

current rough idea that has been proposed for a points system. read it over and make suggestions for changes and improvements if the proposal in this thread wasn't for you.

[sanforce]

http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=132779

current rough idea that has been proposed for a points system. read it over and make suggestions for changes and improvements if the proposal in this thread wasn't for you.

Read if you are for rotations, not competition. Socialism or capitalism?

[Hailto]

Please tell me how that can be interpreted as anything other than a refusal to cooperate/compromise in order to pressure guilds towards a system of your personal preference. Even the last sentence alone comes off as a threat.

That's just how women compromise Pheer.

[Daldolma]

Reasonable post, but you're forgetting the people that are having the biggest problem with this are upset because they want free uncontested mobs, not a more fair competitive playing field.

They want free uncontested mobs because the idea of a "contested mob" on P99 is totally ridiculous and unreasonable for anyone not willing to receive text messages about pixel dragons at 4AM on a Tuesday. That is NOT classic and not what anyone on a classic EverQuest server signed up for. So they'll take uncontested as it's the only way they can even see the classic content they're here for.

The idea of competition in the endgame on this server is a farce. Logging in fully buffed at the kill zone and killing trivial content within 7 minutes of its spawn time is not competition. It's a race, sure, but not one that requires any ability whatsoever beyond hitting "enter world" and pounding a macro.

Classic rewarded competence, organization, and mobilization. P99 rewards time investment and size. That's the problem. Everything else is window dressing.

[MaksimMazor]

http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=132779

current rough idea that has been proposed for a points system. read it over and make suggestions for changes and improvements if the proposal in this thread wasn't for you.

Read if you want to kill 3 things a week

[Reguiy]

How about instead of creating a system that apportions raid mobs based on the same non-classic ability to mobilize 30 camped alts at 4AM, with leftovers being handed out charity-style on a percentage basis to guilds unwilling to compete, we fix the horribly non-classic mechanics and CSR of the endgame?

No socking, no camped alts, and vastly reduced variance. Make guilds actually race to the mobs once they spawn, without a prohibitively insane variance that requires round-the-clock tracking. When you have guilds racing from ZI and having to clear their way instead of just racing to character select, you'll have a natural spread based on legitimate competition instead of rewarding time inputs and sheer size.

Fixing this with "agreements" is just socialism. Fix the mechanics and the rules and you'll have legitimate competition and fair access for all guilds.

There are a lot of problems with this. Trains would run rampant. There would need to be a specific place to engage. Then trains would still run rampant. Then there would be tons of leapfrogging. Then you would have to have a no leapfrog clause. If you had no leapfrogging, then you would have to have a rule where a guild had to legitimately clear. Then there would be no real way to regulate who was "clearing first." blah blah etc etc. You get the idea.

In summary, changing the spot where people will poopsock and log out alt armies wont help anything.

[Lazie]

Actually, it seems the majority of every guild is siding more towards the point system than FE & TMO's system. I'd think if IB stepped forward and made something more toward the point system or agreed to something like the point system than that would be the majority of guilds accepting a new system, the only hold back would be FE & TMO. Who is to say that the server and staff wouldn't move forward without those two guilds if all the others were in favor?

You are wrong on your numbers. Just saying.

[Yinikren]

Everyone is killing 3 things a week because that's what happens when you get asked to share mobs with 6 other guilds.

Problem, math? :p

[-Catherin-]

You guys are a riot. Im all for compromise don't know how many times I can say it. Sorry you are so angry that I don't think this is the right one. Keep calling people who don't agree with you a socialist though you are just derailing your own cause. Good luck with this.

[Autotune]

You are wrong on your numbers. Just saying.

Was not quite aware I posted any numbers, sir. I would like you to please direct me to the exact location as to where my analysis is incorrect and I invite you to correct it with the exact factual numbers.

[Reguiy]

Read if you want to kill 3 things a week

Not sure why I'm responding since I don't think I've ever read a productive post from you, but no one said those numbers would be set in stone. I would be happy if TMO/FE took that proposal and plugged in the numbers they think would be fair. Then we could go from there.

[sanforce]

You guys are a riot. Im all for compromise don't know how many times I can say it. Sorry you are so angry that I don't think this is the right one. Keep calling people who don't agree with you a socialist though you are just derailing your own cause. Good luck with this.

Everyone is killing 3 things a week because that's what happens when you get asked to share mobs with 6 other guilds.

Problem, math? :p

Socialism :p

[oddibemcd]

I actually didn't mind this proposal, but the devil was the details.

We won't touch targets...unless we need them.
You're welcome to try VP, but you get penalized.

This could get settled easy.

First ten days of the month are for guilds that didn't kill a VP dragon in the past month. A guild can't kill any mob in those 10 days they killed the previous month.

Rest of the month is a FFA.

[Argh]

Rotations are not fun.

[Thulack]

Read if you want to kill 3 things a week

Better then 0 isnt it? :D

[Thulack]

Rotations are not fun.

Neither is the current raiding scene on p99(well current as in before last week)

[Hailto]

They want free uncontested mobs because the idea of a "contested mob" on P99 is totally ridiculous and unreasonable for anyone not willing to receive text messages about pixel dragons at 4AM on a Tuesday. That is NOT classic and not what anyone on a classic EverQuest server signed up for. So they'll take uncontested as it's the only way they can even see the classic content they're here for.

The idea of competition in the endgame on this server is a farce. Logging in fully buffed at the kill zone and killing trivial content within 7 minutes of its spawn time is not competition. It's a race, sure, but not one that requires any ability whatsoever beyond hitting "enter world" and pounding a macro.

Classic rewarded competence, organization, and mobilization. P99 rewards time investment and size. That's the problem. Everything else is window dressing.

So you think disallowing guilds to camp out alts at targets is going to change anything? The more organized guilds will out mobilize from the bind points because they will still be the ones getting the batphones. If you increase spawn frequency, the top guilds are still going to get the lions share anyway. People are bitching about this because they want free mobs, not contested ones.

[Lazie]

Was not quite aware I posted any numbers, sir. I would like you to please direct me to the exact location as to where my analysis is incorrect and I invite you to correct it with the exact factual numbers.

Check your PM's Stealin. Wasn't trying to argue with you.

[Pheer]

You guys are a riot. Im all for compromise don't know how many times I can say it. Sorry you are so angry that I don't think this is the right one. Keep calling people who don't agree with you a socialist though you are just derailing your own cause. Good luck with this.

Im not angry about you not agreeing with this proposal, Im angry at your threats to stall negotiations out until you're personally satisfied despite you claiming that youre all about compromise.

[Tayy]

Let's be honest, I can't see TMO or FE/IB giving out loot to another guild strictly to screw with things, they are much too proud to do that and if people begin guild jumping it will be pretty obvious to see whats up.

A point system/bag limit is the only fair way to go. I understand it's difficult to go from 90% of the mobs to 20% especially when you've increased your guild size to the point its at and have X number of alts that "need" to be geared to your liking but it's the only fair way. It's not going to be fair if you look at it from where your sitting, it's fair to everyone as a whole. Of course it's easy to say we have more people needing geared, were more hardcore then the next guild so were more entitled to shit but that's not in the best interests of fairness.

There will be times where other guilds max out their point total with lesser mobs and miss out on the big targets. It will effect everyone positively and negatively given certain circumstances.

If the guild leaders sat down over a large pizza to discuss problems and the devs bought the pizza and my guild leader ate 5 of the 10 slices and you and the other leaders are still fucking hungry when it's all gone, you better believe your gonna be pissed off when his excuse is "well I eat faster, hence worked harder....deal with it".... annnnnddd that's my analogy for the day.

[-Catherin-]

Im not angry about you not agreeing with this proposal, Im angry at your threats to stall negotiations out until you're personally satisfied despite you claiming that youre all about compromise.

This statement is completely fabricated. not agreeing to a flawed compromise is not stalling. its not agreeing to a flawed compromise.

and my personal satisfaction has nothing to do with it. Since my personal satisfaction isn't what is going to be the decision on what we all end up agreeing upon. I have no power to make any real change to any of this other than state my own opinion. You seem pretty threatened by that though

[Hailto]

This statement is completely fabricated. not agreeing to a flawed compromise is not stalling. its not agreeing to a flawed compromise

I'll make this clear too.

Im more than willing to be raid suspended for a week, or a month, or longer, if that's what its going to take for a proper agreement for everyone. This doesn't hurt me. This doesn't hurt the smaller guilds. Taken looses the respectable number of targets we get but it also gives us a break from this toxicity in the promise of something better in the future for all of us.

Not sure if I can say that about everyone in the top Guilds though so you had better think about that.

Sounds exactly like stalling unless you get what you want.

[cyryllis]

Obviously just make 18 guilds, one for each raid target. When you no longer need gear from that raid target, switch guilds. That way 18 guilds get loot every week. Smile and sing along.


/S

Or just keep this well thought out proposal

[-Catherin-]

Sounds exactly like stalling unless you get what you want.

So me not agreeing with this is going to make the whole thing come to a halt? Thanks but you give me too much credit :p

All im going to post for now anyways. I let you guys suck me into a non productive conversation and I'd rather see us all try to work together and get something useful accomplished

[Daldolma]

There are a lot of problems with this. Trains would run rampant. There would need to be a specific place to engage. Then trains would still run rampant. Then there would be tons of leapfrogging. Then you would have to have a no leapfrog clause. If you had no leapfrogging, then you would have to have a rule where a guild had to legitimately clear. Then there would be no real way to regulate who was "clearing first." blah blah etc etc. You get the idea.

In summary, changing the spot where people will poopsock and log out alt armies wont help anything.

Leapfrogging is classic EQ raiding. If you don't like leapfrogging, you don't like competition and you don't like EverQuest. Training was a pretty regular occurrence, too. Egregiously intentional training was punished, but most of the time, it was pretty much self-policing. Unless you wanted to be trained in return, you did your best to avoid training others.

None of the things you mention are actual problems. That's raiding. That's competition.

Trying to fix classic EverQuest raiding is what got the server into this mess.

[Pheer]

So me not agreeing with this is going to make the while thing come to a halt? Thanks but you give me too much credit :p

Not necessarily but you already stated that if that were the case you would be more than willing to do it. I dont get how you can possibly try to spin that quote into anything other than what it is.

Either way though I think I'm done posting on this whole thing. Time to go back to lurking mode and see what happens I guess.

[Thulack]

Gotta love form of rotations still going on on Brell server even in 2004:
http://www.brellrants.net/brell/viewtopic.php?t=7783&highlight=rotation

^^Classic EQ for some of us.

[Exmo]

As part of the solution to this, can we have a technical change that upon spawn of specific targets, all people camped in the zone are moved to the Succor Point?

So the whole "Not Poopsocking" Fully buffed alt army is now at the ent to seb instead of trak's lair.

[dustysr06]

I think it sucks, but i did have a favorite part:

As of January 1, 2014, Category A guilds will be considered “Hands Off” for any Priority raid targets during the first 7 days of each calendar month. During that time period, Category A guilds will avoid any of their priority targets and open them to the rest of the server. This will however exclude raid targets in Veeshan’s Peak.

During the “Hands Off" Period, Category A Guilds may take this opportunity to go after Category A de-prioritized targets that they will be avoiding the other 3 weeks a month.

It is important to note that FE, IB and TMO will not necessarily be actively tracking these deprioritized mobs during this time, as we have agreed only to track and engage them during this time if there is a need for a specific item (e.g. we have a warrior holding a green scale that needs a maestro hand).

Curious, does this include the *need* to sell these item MQs to other guilds? :)

Compromise to me sounds more like splitting the month in half, and doing the first 1/2 as a 'rotation' to be randomly determined each month and the second 1/2 half as FFA, sock ur balls and do whatever u want while basement dwelling... sounds way better to me

[sanforce]

Obviously just make 18 guilds, one for each raid target. When you no longer need gear from that raid target, switch guilds. That way 18 guilds get loot every week. Smile and sing along.


Now this is a well thought out idea. We can all join <Trakanon>, <Venril Sathir>, etc. and kill the mobs together!

[Daldolma]

As part of the solution to this, can we have a technical change that upon spawn of specific targets, all people camped in the zone are moved to the Succor Point?

So the whole "Not Poopsocking" Fully buffed alt army is now at the ent to seb instead of trak's lair.

This would be a pretty drastic change that could have some massive non-raid implications (for example, what about someone who parks out in Crypt overnight?). But I agree with you that one of the major problems affecting the raid scene is the camped-out alt army. It's not classic, and it totally trivializes pretty much everything about the mythical "competition" everyone seems to be in favor of.

I don't know if you need to make a technical change, though. Just make it against the rules and set a penalty table. First offense, 1 week raid suspension. Second offense, 2 weeks. Third offense, a month. Etc, etc. It won't be hard to tell the difference between a guild mobilizing from zone line and 27 guild members instantly appearing in VS pit.

[Buriedpast]

FE you guys got this wrong.

Smarten the fuck up.

[Bossman]

Lol Bossman your are a lost cause. Poor dense idiot.
You obviously didn't read his post. There is 0 competition in a system where the MAN EVEN WROTE

Meaning? Everyone will get a near EQUAL amount of mobs. Where is the competition when everyone gets the same amount? Please explain.
next quote.

^
Automatically dividing the points EQUALLY. <-

and this


^^
In simplest fucking terms that is socialism.
We can call it mob welfare. Or Free mobs are us. If that makes you feel better?

"there are too many raid guilds already on the server for this system to possibly give every guild a decent number of mobs
ALL MOBS WILL B EQUAL in this POINT SYSTEM."

And why did you make the point system?
"to limit the mob intake of the guilds that were monopolizing."

An What guilds was monopolizing?
Of course TMO FE an IB

Define Socialism briefly.
Socialism is a very nice, kind and compassionate idea. Where people all get along and share the riches of <TMO FE IB>, taking their dragons to care for the needs of those that are deemed incapable of taking care of dragons themselves.

Idiot.
Do you need more proof?
or are you really that fucking dense to not see how a point system is a free hand out.

It will make all raiders equal...LOL fuckkk that
Bet he does not reply to this post or has some dumb ass 5 word come back.
Having to explain this to such a low grade moron is not worth it... im out.
Good luck.

You completely fail at reading comprehension. You compete for mobs that are high priority to your guild. This proposal basically ensures that you don't kill every mob that you feel like it because you can. TMO would compete with FE/IB and not every guild on the server.

Just because this isn't the kind of competition that you are used to doesn't mean that it is not competition. Ever word that comes out of your one dimensional mouth is poison.

EDIT: your jimmies are clearly rustled. I can't believe that you would send me an insulting PM. Just goes to show you what some people will do when there precious pixels are threatened with logic. You are pathetic.

[Nirgon]

All the markings of a compromise and no soul raping poop socking.

Let's see who drags their feet here.

[Buriedpast]

Lol Bossman your are a lost cause. Poor dense idiot.
You obviously didn't read his post. There is 0 competition in a system where the MAN EVEN WROTE

Meaning? Everyone will get a near EQUAL amount of mobs. Where is the competition when everyone gets the same amount? Please explain.
next quote.

^
Automatically dividing the points EQUALLY. <-

and this


^^
In simplest fucking terms that is socialism.
We can call it mob welfare. Or Free mobs are us. If that makes you feel better?

"there are too many raid guilds already on the server for this system to possibly give every guild a decent number of mobs
ALL MOBS WILL B EQUAL in this POINT SYSTEM."

And why did you make the point system?
"to limit the mob intake of the guilds that were monopolizing."

An What guilds was monopolizing?
Of course TMO FE an IB

Define Socialism briefly.
Socialism is a very nice, kind and compassionate idea. Where people all get along and share the riches of <TMO FE IB>, taking their dragons to care for the needs of those that are deemed incapable of taking care of dragons themselves.

Idiot.
Do you need more proof?
or are you really that fucking dense to not see how a point system is a free hand out.

It will make all raiders equal...LOL fuckkk that
Bet he does not reply to this post or has some dumb ass 5 word come back.
Having to explain this to such a low grade moron is not worth it... im out.
Good luck.

Turp,
Do you not understand this isn't your server?

Rogean doesn't want people like you on his server anymore.

So make peace with the fct he wants no csr shit, and no two guilds alternating spawns.

Or, fuck off.

[Turp_SmokinPurp]

You completely fail at reading comprehension. You compete for mobs that are high priority to your guild. This proposal basically ensures that you don't kill every mob that you feel like it because you can. TMO would compete with FE/IB and not every guild on the server.

Just because this isn't the kind of competition that you are used to doesn't mean that it is not competition. Ever word that comes out of your one dimensional mouth is poison.
Any proposal is not giving any 1 guild 100% mobs so wtf are you talking about?
Lol dip an dodge every question. I answered and showed where it screams free mobs please. Show me where it says competition. Its weak limp dick competition and you know it.

Turp,
Do you not understand this isn't your server?

Rogean doesn't want people like you on his server anymore.

So make peace with the fct he wants no csr shit, and no two guilds alternating spawns.

Or, fuck off.

Never said it was my server? dumb question
This proposal does not just have two guilds alternating spawns.
Where are you coming up with this shit?

Lol bossman sent you a PM so your bitch ass would reply. AN you came back with 2 paragrahs of non sense not proving competition at all. gtfo

[Bossman]

Any proposal is not giving any 1 guild 100% mobs so wtf are you talking about?
Lol dip an dodge every question. I answered and showed where it screams free mobs please. Show me where it says competition. Its weak limp dick competition and you know it.

Because logging out fully buffed raid forces and zerging with 50+ is hardcore. It's so badass to kill Trak in 20 seconds!

[Buriedpast]

Also turp, it isn't welfare. We (TMO and IB and FE) win here.

Taken will never get a trakanon we want, no one gets VP kills we want.

It's the fairest thing possible having a bag limit.

[Racun]

Disclaimer: this is all hypothetical as I don't have access to population data.

To come to an actual compromise I think we need to break the problem down to it's most simplistic level. I've seen numbers thrown around here by people such as 50/50 and 75/25 splits, but that's not really what it's all about. A 50/50 split implies each person is getting an equal share, when in reality a 50/50 hardcore/casual split is 50% of loot going to 10% (again I don't know the exact number, this is all hypothetical) and the other 50% to 90% of the server.

There needs to be a compromise that the majority agrees upon to proceed, so lets break it down even further. How many individual players are there in TMO/FE/IB and how many individual players are there on the rest of the server(or maybe just in the rest of the raid capable guilds - include all guilds that can kill a raid target here)? If we can get access to these numbers we can find the exact ratio of hardcores to casuals.

From there we need to agree upon what loot % per person would be appropriate for a casual vs a hardcore player. E.g. I think a hardcore player is entitled to 4x as much loot as a casual player, so if TMO/FE/IB have 300 individual players between them and the rest of the server = 3000 individual players, then TMO/FE/IB at a 4:1 ratio = 300/3300 x 4 = 1200/3300.. so from there we see that a raid target limit system would be the most appropriate, and using that ratio the target limit per guild (treating IB, FE and TMO as separate guilds) would need to be 1200/3300 (36%) therefore all guilds should then have a limit entitling them to 12%(rounded for simplicity) of all raid targets per month each. If we were to increase the ratio to 6:1 then each guild would be entitled to 18% of all raid targets per month.

Note that this doesn't mean everyone gets a fair share. Some people will still get the full amount per month and others may get 0, but this way guilds would need to pick & choose their targets appropriately and there would still be competition over the choicest loot whilst still giving the casuals plenty of available raid targets. Obviously this is all hypothetical and you can debate over what the ratio of hardcore:casual loot/raid targets should be, but I think we need to stop acting like hardcore players make up 50% of the server population.

Probably TL;DR for most people, but it's a compromise that provides an alternative that caters to the casual scum whilst still satiating that pixel lust of the hardcore population.

[stewe]

In order to promote an environment that fosters a more friendly atmosphere between the “Casuals” and the “Hardcore” several raiding guilds have come together to draft this agreement for the server. The high-end raiding guilds have made several concessions in favor of the smaller guilds to get more targets. This proposal comes as a function of the input of many members of the server through posts, tells, and vent conversations from members and leadership across the server.

No poop socking agreement:
No guild will have more than 2 members present at any given time during period of time where either Venril Sathir or Trakanon are in window. Specifically those tracking for VS will not be in the room. This will apply to all mobs.

Naturally, there are times that will exist where it is necessary to have more than 2 trackers in the zone for an encounter. There are, however, instances where more than 2 characters from any guilds will need to be in zone. If a guild is CoTHing members down or buffing they may do so, and they may med to full. Upon reaching full mana or completing a CoTH the surplus members must log off and not maintain a presence.

There will no longer be grouping in the VS pit to circumvent the 2-player no-sock rule. This is easy to justify as it’s a terrible spot for exp and has relatively no value for any player to be here if they aren’t looking to manipulate this rule.

In addition, guilds are able to engage Prot and Tola within a reasonable amount of time and may not malinger in the zone after the mobs have been killed.

With the agreement to remove socking as a tactic, we request that GMs significantly reduce variance, as it only serves as a detriment to everyone at this point.

DA Stalling Tactics:
Any stalling tactic such as Divine Barrier or Aura, Harmshield, monk whirlwind or avoidance discs or DA Idol is considered 1 unit of stall. No guild shall employ more than 2 units of stalling during any raid target encounter (36 seconds). If said guild employs a stall tactic and fails to engage the encounter after that time period has concluded, they will forfeit any attempt to engage that target during this spawn period and retreat from the encounter.

CATEGORY A & B
Any guilds considered to be a raid guild will be categorized either A or B.

The Mystical Order, Forceful Entry, and Inglorious Basterds will start in category A. All other guilds will start as Category B.

If a category B guild kills 40% or more of targets in any given month during our “hands off” period (explained below), they will be promoted to Category A and be subject to the respective restrictions.

Any guild that is promoted to Category A will remain in this category for 30 days and will remain in this category until their kill percentage falls to 20% or below.

VP Dragons are excluded from percentage calculations.

Any guild that is VP capable (Kills a dragon in VP) will be considered Category A for 90 days.

HANDS OFF PERIOD
As of January 1, 2014, Category A guilds will be considered “Hands Off” for any Priority raid targets during the first 7 days of each calendar month. During that time period, Category A guilds will avoid any of their priority targets and open them to the rest of the server. This will however exclude raid targets in Veeshan’s Peak.

During the “Hands Off" Period, Category A Guilds may take this opportunity to go after Category A de-prioritized targets that they will be avoiding the other 3 weeks a month.

It is important to note that FE, IB and TMO will not necessarily be actively tracking these deprioritized mobs during this time, as we have agreed only to track and engage them during this time if there is a need for a specific item (e.g. we have a warrior holding a green scale that needs a maestro hand).

Repop Days
During a repop, the Category A and B restrictions will not apply, however TMO, FE, and IB have agreed that they will not pursue non-priority targets during a repop.

CAT A De-Prioritized Raid Targets:
Gorenoire, Talendor, Maestro of Rancor & Dracolich (solo spawn)

CAT A Priority Raid Targets:
Cazic Thule (Draco), Venril Sathir, Trakanon, Faydedar, Innourouk, Severillous

Nagy/Vox
As it concerns Nagafen & Vox; CAT A Guilds will alternate killing only one per week and the following week killing the other always leaving one available to the remainder of the server.

Plane of Sky/Noble Dojorn

The Plane of Sky rotation will be respected by all guilds participating, however guilds are free to renegotiate their days with whomever they please.

Guilds agree to leave Overseer of Air up (providing the mechanics on blue still allow for this) to spawn multiple Nobles per day/week/month. If a Noble spawns during a guilds scheduled time, it will be assumed that the guild currently engaging sky will have a first right to engage that noble or they may defer that target to another guild if they choose to do so.

Guild Council
In addition to the aforementioned agreement, I have spoken with Sirken and Derubael about creating a guild council consisting of the following guilds; Divinity, Taken, The Mystical Order, Forceful Entry, Inglourious Basterds, and Bregan d`Aerth. Each guild will have two members that will sit on the council and each guild will have a single vote. Voting for amendments will require a majority (4/6 votes). The council will also be responsible for sanctioning guilds that violate the terms of the agreement. Sanctions will require a super majority to affect (5/6 votes).

GMs Sirken and Derubael will oversee the committee if need be and their decisions will supersede those of the council. The CSR staff will defer to the judgement of the council however and will only intervene in extenuating circumstances. Guilds will also have the right to appeal decisions with CSR staff. The CSR staff has given the council the power to self-govern and use this committee to self-police. They also encourage guilds to work out disputes amongst themselves before bringing issues before CSR staff.

Will guild leaders please PM me with the members of their respective guilds that they would like to add to this council. Ideally, the members you choose will have the authority to make decisions on behalf of your guild or act in the stead of a Guild Leader in the event of the leader’s absence.

Please reference the above document for your consideration. The guilds that have drafted this agreement believe this is a monumental change for the server in a favorable direction for all parties involved. The leadership of each guild is asked to reply, “Signed” in support of the above.

So who gave just them 3 guild all the power? U gave it to yourself, go figure. This is just another way for the 1% to shit on the rest. Same thing, just with a new coat of paint.

[Skywarp]

Why not just /random mobs week to week between the guilds. So many crying about what they ain't getting when they never got any mobs before. Now is your chance cat b guilds. You have to earn your place and that is classic.

[Aviann]

We must come to an agreement.

[dustysr06]

No need to random week to week, just have the first 2 weeks of the month decided via /random between guilds (picks for mobs to appropriate rolls, free to trade picks with other guilds - lottery style)

last 1/2 of the month goes back to FFA, TMO/FE/IB domination for proper neckbeard growth

this is/was divinity's idea - and i think its a good start/fair compromise

[Buriedpast]

Da stalling is retarded beyond retarded.

How about a mechanic that no persons may be added to aggro list after 20 seconds from engage. Use vox banish.

So if you engage a mob without being ready, half your guild gets banished as they log in and join the fight.

[Savok]

Here is a simplistic idea (maybe too simple?) to try to open up the system but still maintain competition. Split all of the mobs in to tiers like this:

Tier 1
Phinny? (It may be a 'raid to a small guild and a solo effort to someone else)
Maestro

Tier 2
Naggy
Vox
Draco

Tier 3
Inny
CT

Tier 4
Gore
Talendar

Tier 5
Fay
Sev

Tier 6
VS
Trak

Tier 7
VP

If you kill even 1 mob from a tier you are excluded from killing a mob on the tier directly below until its following spawn. For example if you kill any dragon in VP you cannot kill VS or Trak until it has spawned and has been killed by another guild. They in turn cannot kill Fay or Sev until the too have been killed by another guild. Meanwhile the guild(s) that killed in VP can have free reign at the spawning Fay and Sev but would then have to leave Inny and CT to another guild.

I may not have the mobs all in the right tiers and maybe missing some but what this should do is open the chance for more guilds to see more higher tiered mobs open for them. If the top 3 guilds each even kill one VP dragon that would open Trak and VS to a mid guild – and this would hopefully trickle down.

[Hodge]

my head hurts.

[Durka]

No need to random week to week, just have the first 2 weeks of the month decided via /random between guilds (picks for mobs to appropriate rolls, free to trade picks with other guilds - lottery style)

last 1/2 of the month goes back to FFA, TMO/FE/IB domination for proper neckbeard growth

this is/was divinity's idea - and i think its a good start/fair compromise

^^

#1 pick over point system. I dont see the proposal from FE/TMO viable for so called "category b' guilds. So far all I have seen is defensive responses and harsh criticism for this original proposal. Why not entertain this lottery system?

Lottery is not socialism.

[dustysr06]

VP would remain FFA and not included in the lottery

any merbs extending into FFA territory would then become FFA as of the 15th of the month if they hadnt spawned again yet (fuck you variance)

I also like the idea that you could trade picks with a guild via whatever agreement the 2 make together- i'll give u this #3 pick for dibs on first CT, u give me ur #5 pick for dibs on 3rd trak spawn and ur sky night for the week, or whatever the case may be~

[Bossman]

^^

#1 pick over point system. I dont see the proposal from FE/TMO viable for so called "category b' guilds. So far all I have seen is defensive responses and harsh criticism for this original proposal. Why not entertain this lottery system?

Lottery is not socialism.

This is a rotation two weeks out of the month and involves 0 competition. How would you determine a guilds entry into this system? How long so they have to kill their mob? What happens if they can't in allotted time frame?

[dustysr06]

how is logging out a raid force at multiple targets due to having nothing but kunark for 2 years coupled with an open account buying/selling/trading system to have sufficient alts for such camping, then paying people monopoly money to sit there for 16+ hours a day with a group message ready to send out as soon as the mob pops at 4am for your 40 friends to come rushing to the keys to help u while u take 5 minutes to 'pull' the mob and/or sitting clicking air for countless hours competition?

if you want competition how about doing away with mob spawns completely outside of server repops? Or p99 it up with more un-classic experiences and include a server-wide summon of all lvl 46+ toons to the arena with a simulated server repop to spark a little more competition.

I play here because i loved eq, this proposal isnt mine, im not gonna put it all out there- those are just some of the ideas from what i've read of it and it seems to be a fair compromise for the carebears against the hardcores- do you not understand that some people came from rotation servers? Their 'reliving the classic experience' might JUST involve some rotations.

[dustysr06]

In the EQ i remember, the challenge came from actually killing the mobs, and enjoying doing it- not from these petty sub-games that have been created here such as: who can throw the quickest javelin? How low can your ping go? Who's got the most e-pals on speedial?

[Durka]

This is a rotation two weeks out of the month and involves 0 competition. How would you determine a guilds entry into this system? How long so they have to kill their mob? What happens if they can't in allotted time frame?

Very good questions and all of that will need to be thought out / decided upon by officers if they choose to go this route. I just support the idea.

Some ideas:


Guilds that have more than 30+ toons that have been active in the past 30 days qualify for the lottery (guilds that are new have to wait 30 days to get into lottery and have 30 active members for 30 days)

Only guilds with 10+ VP keyed active members qualify for lottery in VP (VP separate lottery or maybe just FFA with FTE raid rules. Not sure which would work best)

Guilds get 8 hours to kill their target once it spawns. Once that 8 hours is up, the mob is FFA. Timer can / may be posted on whokilledit website or guild trackers must keep track.


I can put on my capn obvious cap and point out that this server has a HUGE population of what used to be hardcore raiders. Its like taking 6 top guilds from the biggest population servers of live back in 2001 and putting them all on one server. Its a great challenge, but we must find a civil no-loophole way to do this. This is not a hostile post, no need to respond to it with hostility.

[Reguiy]

Da stalling is retarded beyond retarded.

How about a mechanic that no persons may be added to aggro list after 20 seconds from engage. Use vox banish.

So if you engage a mob without being ready, half your guild gets banished as they log in and join the fight.

That's actually a really fucking good idea.

+1

[Bossman]

What about pulls for outdoor dragons? How would raid members like wizards and third/fourth healers not get banished?

[oddibemcd]

What about pulls for outdoor dragons? How would raid members like wizards and third/fourth healers not get banished?

Engage in place? Give chanters something to do? Eliminate the "the bard was bringing Sev to our camp, he just took a wrong turn while 30 more logged on?"

Tal would be the only one where engaging in place would be a pain.

[Reguiy]

What about pulls for outdoor dragons? How would raid members like wizards and third/fourth healers not get banished?

One of the main points of it would be eliminating pulling across half the zone while people logged in.

Also, I'm sure wizards and clerics could find something to do in the 20 seconds before they're banished. Hell, we could even make it 25 if they think they wouldn't be able to get off one quick spell in that timeframe.

[Buriedpast]

Or, let's have no raid mobs. Thanks sirken for the guarantee.

[Nirgon]

Some guilds weren't getting anything to begin with.

Sign this shit. Are you high? Lol.

[gummab]

No poop socking agreement:
No guild will have more than 2 members present at any given time during period of time where either Venril Sathir or Trakanon are in window. Specifically those tracking for VS will not be in the room. This will apply to all mobs.

Naturally, there are times that will exist where it is necessary to have more than 2 trackers in the zone for an encounter. There are, however, instances where more than 2 characters from any guilds will need to be in zone. If a guild is CoTHing members down or buffing they may do so, and they may med to full. Upon reaching full mana or completing a CoTH the surplus members must log off and not maintain a presence.

There will no longer be grouping in the VS pit to circumvent the 2-player no-sock rule. This is easy to justify as it’s a terrible spot for exp and has relatively no value for any player to be here if they aren’t looking to manipulate this rule.

In addition, guilds are able to engage Prot and Tola within a reasonable amount of time and may not malinger in the zone after the mobs have been killed.


How does this work,i duo,trio port/juggs all the time.Are you saying i cannot? Forget that shite.
I'm all for change but quite frankly there's more guilds than TMO&FE and most it seems dont like these rules,so i guess no more raiding for a while.

[Joroz]

It's been said a million times that casual guilds don't track mobs... that is complete bullshit... look now how many guilds are actively tracking mobs.

They won't track mobs when

a. they know they will get trained and competing for a target will be futile
b. they know they cannot mobilize faster than 30 fully buffed and camped raid alts are already at the target logging in 10 seconds after the mob spawns to have it dead in under 60 seconds

and why would they, anyone would consider it to be a waste of time.

this proposal only positions the guilds currently monopolizing the raid scene with their current tactics in a community sanctioned way of doing what they have already been doing with a few concessions of mobs that drop near useless items

before settling on any agreement please think if it will actually benefit the server or mostly those making it

[Alarti0001]

Are IB/FE separate raid guilds now? If so does TMO get 2 votes in your proposition?

rofl

[gummab]

It's been said a million times that casual guilds don't track mobs... that is complete bullshit... look now how many guilds are actively tracking mobs.

They won't track mobs when

a. they know they will get trained and competing for a target will be futile
b. they know they cannot mobilize faster than 30 fully buffed and camped raid alts are already at the target logging in 10 seconds after the mob spawns to have it dead in under 60 seconds

and why would they, anyone would consider it to be a waste of time.

this proposal only positions the guilds currently monopolizing the raid scene with their current tactics in a community sanctioned way of doing what they have already been doing with a few concessions of mobs that drop near useless items

before settling on any agreement please think if it will actually benefit the server or mostly those making it

Tend to agree,all these proposals are about getting raid targets,when the main issue is all the shit that goes on BEFORE that training and fun&games by certain guilds or people.The amount of times our guild has been trained.leapfrogged(by guilds who claim to be our friends.)Is beyond a joke and is mostly the main reasons i think other guilds who can raid these target dont..

Any comments made by me are not the view of my guild but by me alone just fyi.

[Happyfeet]

Some guilds weren't getting anything to begin with.

Sign this shit. Are you high? Lol.

Too late - the dinner bell has already been rung, now all these people feel entitled. Take your 7 or 10 days of no upper-tier competition as a blessing and earn your kills. At least win a race in the small-guild race, I guarantee you it will be a lot easier.

Or just agree to this and add in your own small rotation in the 7-10 day period. Everyone pick a day? Everyone pick a mob? I don't care.

Honestly if you combined the two main ideas, it might work pretty well. Use the point system for the Tier 2 guilds, that way BDA and Taken can ONLY kill Trak and Inny and not monopolize the mobs from the even smaller guilds.

[Bossman]

It's amusing to see FE and TMO's responses when their "proposal" is unanimously rejected. Why don't you guys rehash this plan and come back with a better offer? All you want to do is hate on us casual scum and not offer anything further that is productive. Tick tock

[Nirgon]

Here's a concept. They apparently don't "need the loot". You do.

Free mobs. Take em.

[Oleris]

what happens when velious comes out regarding factions?

[Nirgon]

I continue pick through mechanics and find non-classic content with people Ele while you guys continue to not get raid mobs?

A reroll with a true classic timeline (with no 100% xp bonus weekends and shit) prevents most of this qq from happening. If ya catch mah drift.

[Powtle]

Europa do NOT sign this proposal and is currently discussing about Divinity currently non-public proposal.

The Sky/Dojorn part of your proposal is not bad but would require more details.

[JerSar]

I'm not a raider. I am not affiliated with a raiding guild. My main is level 24. This system seems fair to me.

If you want to get more loot then join a bigger more hardcore guild. If your "loyal" to your current guild then start a motion to compete more.

This system is fair, and I don't even give a shit.

[Durka]

I'm not a raider. I am not affiliated with a raiding guild. My main is level 24. This system seems fair to me.

If you want to get more loot then join a bigger more hardcore guild. If your "loyal" to your current guild then start a motion to compete more.

This system is fair, and I don't even give a shit.

Thanks for your input butters. But we need qualified input - guilded invested individuals who have experience with these things. But you dont give a shit.

[Lostprophets]

Thanks for your input butters. But we need qualified input - guilded invested individuals who have experience with these things. But you dont give a shit.

He's still too busy playing Hello Kitty Online Adventures to level up and experience the raid scene we're stooling in...obviously.

[gummab]

I'm not a raider. I am not affiliated with a raiding guild. My main is level 24. This system seems fair to me.

If you want to get more loot then join a bigger more hardcore guild. If your "loyal" to your current guild then start a motion to compete more.

This system is fair, and I don't even give a shit.


Why do people keep saying *if you want more loot*, all i want to do is kill these mobs,as far as i'm concerned i'd be happy if there was nothing sorted out by the 2nd and raiding continued WITHOUT mobs dropping loot, actually thats a good idea mobs without loot.That would solve the toxic environment in one swoop.

When and if you start raiding you may change your mind,raiding here is like walking into a minefield.

[Sadre Spinegnawer]

read proposal. it opens things up, some good ideas.

my only warning is, the best rule sets get simpler, not more complex. so that is my two bits. to quote Ralph Waldo Emerson: "simplify, simplify, simplify."

get the rules as simple as possible. otherwise, rule lawyering will make your head explode inside of two months.

but good start.

still think my proposal was and is the best. but I am of simple mind, to quote Luca Brasi

[JerSar]

Why do people keep saying *if you want more loot*, all i want to do is kill these mobs,as far as i'm concerned i'd be happy if there was nothing sorted out by the 2nd and raiding continued WITHOUT mobs dropping loot, actually thats a good idea mobs without loot.That would solve the toxic environment in one swoop.

When and if you start raiding you may change your mind,raiding here is like walking into a minefield.

I started p99 when it came out. I raided. I was a top end necromancer. If you want to kill monsters then join a monster killing guild.

I deleted my 60 necromancer because waking up at 4am bat phone wasn't fun to me and I didn't want to be tempted to waste away my time soloing for nothing.

The community on p99 on the lower levels os fantastic.

We all play for different reason, but I'm just saying that if you want something, go get it don't complain (not you specifically) until you get it brought to you.

Off to play jello kitty office edition or w/e

[Durka]

I started p99 when it came out. I raided. I was a top end necromancer. If you want to kill monsters then join a monster killing guild.

I deleted my 60 necromancer because waking up at 4am bat phone wasn't fun to me and I didn't want to be tempted to waste away my time soloing for nothing.

The community on p99 on the lower levels os fantastic.

We all play for different reason, but I'm just saying that if you want something, go get it don't complain (not you specifically) until you get it brought to you.

Off to play jello kitty office edition or w/e

all i have for this guys 2cp is...its worthless. Stay on topic. Is this a good idea or not?

If not, then say whether your guild is against or for this idea.

Personal experiences aside.

[JerSar]

all i have for this guys 2cp is...its worthless. Stay on topic. Is this a good idea or not?

If not, then say whether your guild is against or for this idea.

Personal experiences aside.

I told you I thought it was good.

[Durka]

You are a single person who does not voice for a guild. We need guild leaders agreeing to this or disagreeing. This topic has gotten so offhand. TMO/FE put a lot of time into this, we need officers from guilds to agree/disagree to this. I was even part of the 'off topic'. Lets see what comes of this.

[gummab]

I started p99 when it came out. I raided. I was a top end necromancer. If you want to kill monsters then join a monster killing guild.

I deleted my 60 necromancer because waking up at 4am bat phone wasn't fun to me and I didn't want to be tempted to waste away my time soloing for nothing.

The community on p99 on the lower levels os fantastic.

We all play for different reason, but I'm just saying that if you want something, go get it don't complain (not you specifically) until you get it brought to you.

Off to play jello kitty office edition or w/e

Fair play to you then,but i would never join a top end guild here,my mindset would not allow it i just don't like the idea of shitting on the ones below you,when common sense could prevail.

And i agree the lower levels the community is great,even some of the higher levels are great,it's just the pixel lust that you see make me sick.

[JerSar]

Fair play to you then,but i would never join a top end guild here,my mindset would not allow it i just don't like the idea of shitting on the ones below you,when common sense could prevail.

And i agree the lower levels the community is great,even some of the higher levels are great,it's just the pixel lust that you see make me sick.

Yes. I agree.

I just think that this proposal opens up many targets for everyone considering they can (class b) still go after all mobs.

From what I read it's a workable solution to non-rotation while giving all "raiding" guilds a chance to shine.

I think a vast majority of people posting here didn't read it or are thinking that some kind of dark ages would be allowed to descend if it was agreed upon. If it works it works if it doesn't it doesn't.

I read all 47 pages of replies and it gets real confusing in there... But it just looked feasible.

[Durka]

Lets just say it doesn work for "Category B' obviously. Maybe I misinterpret these posts, but from what I have seen there is negative reaction to this proposition. I myself oppose it, but I am not the voice of my guild.

The idea is to have the guild leaders/officers agree or disagree to this proposal or amend it. Maybe tomorrow we will see more light on this from guild representatives.

[Buriedpast]

You are a single person who does not voice for a guild. We need guild leaders agreeing to this or disagreeing. This topic has gotten so offhand. TMO/FE put a lot of time into this, we need officers from guilds to agree/disagree to this. I was even part of the 'off topic'. Lets see what comes of this.

TMO and FE put about 6 seconds in to this.

This agreement = a few scraps for you guys

And the rest of the time TMO and FE alternate kills on shit.

Its fucking retarded, greedy, obnoxious and all of the people Ive spoken to are laughing at it.

The only solution that works is a bag limit. Weight it any way you like to reward IB FE and TMO for already being keyed etc. Who cares.

It scales in to velious VERY well.

[Durka]

TMO and FE put about 6 seconds in to this.

This agreement = a few scraps for you guys

And the rest of the time TMO and FE alternate kills on shit.

Its fucking retarded, greedy, obnoxious and all of the people Ive spoken to are laughing at it.

The only solution that works is a bag limit. Weight it any way you like to reward IB FE and TMO for already being keyed etc. Who cares.

It scales in to velious VERY well.

Dude, I was all for lottery or points. I am just saying this topic in specific needs to be replied to by guild leaders. It seems we all have chimed in and not been happy with the idea.

Not opposing you.

[Buriedpast]

The problem is, people in TMO, IB, and FE want ALL of the mobs.

Rogean does not want this
Sirken does not want this
Nilbog does not want this.

Thus we can know that without being fair, instead of obnoxious dickwads wanting 70% of the mobs 75% of the time, we should instead share them 100% evenly with a bag limit, which sees tmo and ib going nuts for PD and co, and the rest of the server opened up.

And once again, no coding changes, no intervention, and whokilledit.net means its self policing.

[kphooper33]

I'd suggest removing Fay/Sev/Inny from priority target list.

The big 3 can always get green scales from Hosh, Fay is one of those easy dragons that would allow smaller guilds to compete for them (lvl55).
Inny eh....I guess mage staffs... but they are too rare to count on.


This. 1 Green scale a month seems a little greedy. Red scales are already stupid hard to get. Do the top guilds REALLY need that many green scales still? It would be nice to think that the warrior epic will not cost me 500,000 plat. THAT is not old school. Even if I knew I could just tag along to a TMO/IB/FE raid and loot a scale, that'd be fine. C-blocking epics is just stupid.

The rest seems reasonable to me

[Alarti0001]

This. 1 Green scale a month seems a little greedy. Red scales are already stupid hard to get. Do the top guilds REALLY need that many green scales still? It would be nice to think that the warrior epic will not cost me 500,000 plat. THAT is not old school. Even if I knew I could just tag along to a TMO/IB/FE raid and loot a scale, that'd be fine. C-blocking epics is just stupid.

The rest seems reasonable to me

What is classic is a very very large majority of the server not having epics until deep until Velious. GG

[Xadion]

This. 1 Green scale a month seems a little greedy. Red scales are already stupid hard to get. Do the top guilds REALLY need that many green scales still? It would be nice to think that the warrior epic will not cost me 500,000 plat. THAT is not old school. Even if I knew I could just tag along to a TMO/IB/FE raid and loot a scale, that'd be fine. C-blocking epics is just stupid.

The rest seems reasonable to me

the war epic ALWAYS had the green scale cock block. If its still rare on a 1k population server with YEARS of kunark... You think it was 'easy to get' or cheap on a 2k population live server with less than a year of kunark?

rotation is dumb as shit folks...

the 'top guilds' do not think they should just be given all the mob, they think that within the rules they should be able to WORK and COMPETE to get as many as they can... Its everyone else that wants rotation or candy loot bags given to them that are the ones saying they are entitled to stuff...

most of the population just sits back and says 'well I got my epic on live and didn't super raid!' yes, after the changes to epics after velious... During Kunark and early vel they where rare and elite...well sans rouge lol

[Barkingturtle]

What you guys seem to fail to realize is that we've been in Kunark so long now, we're actually about due for LDoN. Instances are in fact classic at this point.

[kphooper33]

the war epic ALWAYS had the green scale cock block. If its still rare on a 1k population server with YEARS of kunark... You think it was 'easy to get' or cheap on a 2k population live server with less than a year of kunark?

rotation is dumb as shit folks...

the 'top guilds' do not think they should just be given all the mob, they think that within the rules they should be able to WORK and COMPETE to get as many as they can... Its everyone else that wants rotation or candy loot bags given to them that are the ones saying they are entitled to stuff...

most of the population just sits back and says 'well I got my epic on live and didn't super raid!' yes, after the changes to epics after velious... During Kunark and early vel they where rare and elite...well sans rouge lol


Ya Xadion... But the problem with your and ALL these stupid arguments is that these guilds moved on... quickly. These guilds have been C-blocking for YEARS. You saying that buying up hundreds of alts in EC tunnel and farming 1 expansion for years in any way compares to Live events?

Oh and "WORK and COMPETE" lol. How is loading plat-bought alt armies "working" or "competing". Funny I don't remember Cats in Hats loading alt-armies to farm Naggy/Vox or anything for that matter on Drinal...

[kphooper33]

What is classic is a very very large majority of the server not having epics until deep until Velious. GG

Yes, the 50 spears of fate and 30 click sticks in the EC tunnel daily on lvl 52 characters is classic too..

Oh and the main reason for this was not cock-blocking, as you well know. The reason was that the next expansion was actually released before everyone was level capped and farming epics for 2 years.

[kphooper33]

What you guys seem to fail to realize is that we've been in Kunark so long now, we're actually about due for LDoN. Instances are in fact classic at this point.

This... So everyone please stop with your "this is how it always was" bullshit.

[drktmplr12]

460 Posts in this thread. How can anyone resolve reliable information and discussion from this?

[Argh]

This is still the only reasonable concept put forth. It doesn't completely overhaul the philosophy of raiding and more importantly it does nothing to increase the barrier to entry for newer guilds, lesser guilds, or pickup raids from breaking in.

I think most people here would have been thrilled if this raid agreement would have been proposed three weeks ago.

However, I do think there are some changes that should be made to this before going live with it. Most of these have been listed through this thread (limiting mobs on prioritized list, change attempt of vp to successful attempt, 90 day period to 30 day period, hands off period from 7d to 10d.)

I think BDA/Taken should be working to amend this proposal rather than pushing for the creation of an entirely new system of raiding that is radically divergent from the current one.

[Erati]

FE/IB/BDA/Taken/Div/TMO leaders all met in vent for 3 hrs

no policy was agreed to.....

we meet again on Wed

cross your fingers p99......

[Alarti0001]

What you guys seem to fail to realize is that we've been in Kunark so long now, we're actually about due for LDoN. Instances are in fact classic at this point.

I Don't see PoP/Luclin or Velious......

[Barkingturtle]

I Don't see PoP/Luclin or Velious......

Well, no one ever accused you of being perceptive....

[Xadion]

no agreement was met because the 'lower tier' guilds are pulling a power play to create a communistic rotation, and that's not meant as a flame, its really a form of commune thought- that all the community is all entitled to an equal share of the wealth and those that do high end jobs and have high education and or experience get and should have the same as the low end workers and non experienced peoples.

the masses love it!

[Alarti0001]

Well, no one ever accused you of being perceptive....

You see PoP/Velious/Luclin? Because you would have to for your previous statement to have any point whatsoever.
But you aren't an idiot, probably just trollin', right?

[kotton05]

FE/IB/BDA/Taken/Div/TMO leaders all met in vent for 3 hrs

no policy was agreed to.....

we meet again on Wed

cross your fingers p99......

God when I saw this I wanted to blow my brains out I have a solution that'll help all but no one will listen and I don't feel like pounding it into the heads of the ten FE officers:-/

[Barkingturtle]

You see PoP/Velious/Luclin? Because you would have to for your previous statement to have any point whatsoever.
But you aren't an idiot, probably just trollin', right?

I don't have the same faith that you're not an idiot. I also don't really want to hold your hand because I don't know where it's been, so I guess my point will remain a mystery to you.

[Alarti0001]

I don't have the same faith that you're not an idiot. I also don't really want to hold your hand because I don't know where it's been, so I guess my point will remain a mystery to you.

Your point doesn't apply to this situation! Try again next time buddy.

[drktmplr12]

1. Punish the act of using a camped raid to engage a target. This practice prevents competition and is in itself, no form of competition.
2. Tiered content.
3. Limitations based on tier.
4. High council to determine tiers.

The hard part comes in determining who will sit at the council.

Personally I think putting guilds into categories is a recipe for disaster and will get far too complicated for a council to manage. Its easier to categorize mobs.

[Buriedpast]

God when I saw this I wanted to blow my brains out I have a solution that'll help all but no one will listen and I don't feel like pounding it into the heads of the ten FE officers:-/

Officers of FE and IB are not listening to their members is the problem.
TMO are being a huge problem stonewalling with zero care for anyone not TMO, which is sad as a lot of their guys seem on board with sharing.

Hope we can resolve it all in a way that the entire server gets a share, every week, that scales into velious well, and that requires no coding and zero CSR involvement.

Kumbayah my friend.

[Alarti0001]

Officers of FE and IB are not listening to their members is the problem.

Hope we can resolve it all in a way that the entire server gets a share, every week, that scales into velious well, and that requires no coding and zero CSR involvement.

Kumbayah my friend.

They are... just not to you.

[Buriedpast]

They are... just not to you.

Alarti,

You have less than zero relevence to P1999 anymore.

Adios.

[Daldaen]

Holy Jesus this is unnecessarily obscure.

Nagafen/Vox = Open Raid targets only. All may participate.
Epic (Trak, VS, Fay, Inny, CT, Sev, Maestro) = Rotated
Farm (Tal, Gore, Draco) = Rotated
VP = Competition to please that crowd

Week1

Guild 1 = Trakanon + Talendor
Guild 2 = VS + Gorenaire
Guild 3 = Faydedar + Severelious
Guild 4 = Inny + Maestro
Guild 5 = CT + Draco

Week 2

Guild 5 = Trakanon + Talendor
Guild 1 = VS + Gorenaire
Guild 2 = Faydedar + Severelious
Guild 3 = Inny + Maestro
Guild 4 = CT + Draco

You get a whole week for your mob, Sunday at midnight to Saturday at 11:59 PM.

Throw in a simulated spawn once a month at random time of the month.

Rotation implodes upon Velious. New guilds may request one mob be left up for them to attempt a week. The mob they may request from would be a guild with VP access. So if TMO has Fay + Sev and FE/IB has Inny + Maestro, new guild may pick one of those 4 to attempt that week.

[Thulack]

Holy Jesus this is unnecessarily obscure.

Nagafen/Vox = Open Raid targets only. All may participate.
Epic (Trak, VS, Fay, Inny, CT, Sev, Maestro) = Rotated
Farm (Tal, Gore, Draco) = Rotated
VP = Competition to please that crowd

Week1

Guild 1 = Trakanon + Talendor
Guild 2 = VS + Gorenaire
Guild 3 = Faydedar + Severelious
Guild 4 = Inny + Maestro
Guild 5 = CT + Draco

Week 2

Guild 5 = Trakanon + Talendor
Guild 1 = VS + Gorenaire
Guild 2 = Faydedar + Severelious
Guild 3 = Inny + Maestro
Guild 4 = CT + Draco

You get a whole week for your mob, Sunday at midnight to Saturday at 11:59 PM.

Throw in a simulated spawn once a month at random time of the month.

Rotation implodes upon Velious. New guilds may request one mob be left up for them to attempt a week. The mob they may request from would be a guild with VP access. So if TMO has Fay + Sev and FE/IB has Inny + Maestro, new guild may pick one of those 4 to attempt that week.

Nice but there are more then 5 guilds that want in on raiding.

[falkun]

1)
The agreement must be iron-clad or TMO will rules-lawyer it into uselessness. Remember when TMO planted mage pets on Noble when everyone agreed to "not have any person on 1.5 for Noble spawn". TMO was within the "rules", but way outside the "intent" of the rules. This agreement has holes larger than the grand canyon in it, and making it more complex won't help. KISS (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KISS_principle).
2)
Just something to consider when talking about a points system...

What do you do when 1 guild either splits into two or sticks a bunch of alts into a brand new guild...?

How will you know if that new guild is a legitimate separate entity, or just a ploy for more points?

Will you just go with your gut feeling and tell a guild that may in fact be its own thing separate from the original guild 'no, you can't raid because we think you're exploiting points'?

Just a thought. Not saying you can't do it.
One thing about the point / bag system that needs to be considered (just because my tinfoil hat started making funny sounds)

Guilds may take their 2nd, 3rd and 4th alts and make diff guilds to take advantage of this system. Not that everyone will do it right away, but it sure would evolve that way.

/tinfoil hat off
Yinik has a delay to join the points, and I added a post on dissuading diffusion of raid guilds here:
I like the concept!

As for adjusting the points-per-guild or wondering what would happen when a new guild enters, use a formula:
(c*M)/G=P

c: some constant percentage, which controls the amount of farming a guild can do over "their fair share."
M: total number of raid mob points per time period (700 is the number floating around this thread)
G: number of raid guilds receiving points.
P: The number of raid points each guild receives.

I would also simplify the points. Currently you have two tiers, 50 and 25 points. Simplify and set one tier to "2" and the other tier to "1". This makes the rest of the equation simpler and you'll have fewer remainder points in P. For instance you'd get 7.63 raid points (P) allowing you to kill 7 one-point mobs instead of 146 raid points which really only allows you to kill 125 raid points worth of mobs. Or you could account for this by adjusting the constant, c, depending on the number of raid guilds.

Also, this formula would deter guilds from fracturing into micro-guilds.

Finally, this does little to address PetitionQuesting. It will reduce petitions in those less desirable races, but when TMO, FE, IB, and BDA decide they all want to spend points on that one PD, VS, or Trak, Rogean & Co. are gonna have a bad day. Or if too many points remain (because too many extra have been handed out), then some guilds might decide to go after that last Sev before midnight on the last of the month because, "otherwise the points are wasted." I don't have much to offer on that point, but I'll continue to think about it.
3)
Emphasis mine
Seems like alot are not grasping this, by the way i read their comments.
Its says for 3 weeks tmo/ib/fe will not engage inny, sev, maestro, gore, tal. This opens up around 23 mobs they will no longer engage at all. Then 1 week a month they will not engage ct, trak, vs. This is a huve concession of mobs, also there is nothing that says you cant challenge the A guilds, it just says the A guilds cannot challenge you.
Except they have not made that guarantee AT ALL. FE and TMO have said they will not go after them if they don't need them. Following Alarti's posts, TMO (at least) still needs every raid mob in the game, that's why they've killed 200 Traks and 80+% of the raid content for the last two years. See the OP:
It is important to note that FE, IB and TMO will not necessarily be actively tracking these deprioritized mobs during this time, as we have agreed only to track and engage them during this time if there is a need for a specific item (e.g. we have a warrior holding a green scale that needs a maestro hand)
The OP does not state that TMO nor FE will not go after these targets, they merely state they may go after them during the 1-week "hands-off" period, not that they will not go after them for the other 3 weeks. A points system will allow guilds to go after "epic targets" they wouldn't normally need, they'd just have to trade other targets. With this system, they give up nothing to go after epic mobs.
4)
DA Stalling Tactics:
Any stalling tactic such as Divine Barrier or Aura, Harmshield, monk whirlwind or avoidance discs or DA Idol is considered 1 unit of stall. No guild shall employ more than 2 units of stalling during any raid target encounter (36 seconds). If said guild employs a stall tactic and fails to engage the encounter after that time period has concluded, they will forfeit any attempt to engage that target during this spawn period and retreat from the encounter.
No mention of bard DA. Also, its entirely shit. There shouldn't be ANY DA stall tanking, let alone two. Not that I'm advocating Motec's idea for "banish any aggro after 20sec", especially with the long pulls like Sev, Fay, Tal and possibly Gore, but DA stalling is a crap mechanic.
5)
Repop Days
During a repop, the Category A and B restrictions will not apply, however TMO, FE, and IB have agreed that they will not pursue non-priority targets during a repop.
Congratulations guilds shitting at the top of the raid scene, you have VP keys by training, rules-lawyering, and outright killing a mob at 3AM for the last two years. Your prize: VP. Server repops (should, if they don't already) also repop VP, and force VP guilds to kill in their little playground before stepping outside. Also, enjoy the new VP has CSR rule.
6)
On the VP note...
If a category B guild kills 40% or more of targets in any given month during our “hands off” period (explained below), they will be promoted to Category A and be subject to the respective restrictions.

VP Dragons are excluded from percentage calculations.

Any guild that is VP capable (Kills a dragon in VP) will be considered Category A for 90 days.
So if a guild breaks into hardcore (kills a VP dragon) and decides to be nice and only kill in VP, they are penalized (drop back down to casual) because they are nice to the casuals and do not engage outside VP? Also, Why is hurting casuals (killing more than 40% of the non-VP mobs) a less-severe punishment (30days of "hardcore") than the punishment for killing a single "hardcore only" mob in VP, which is 90days of "hardcore" status? Disingenuous.

7)
It's fair to bring up that many deals leave VP out of the uncontested time frames. For the most part, it's a moot point as few guilds have the keys to slay a dragon that are not already hard core. VP can perhaps be fairly addressed through any number of ways such as altering the 75/25 split to something like 70/30 or 67/33, or just making PD the only "non-hands off dragon."

For the time being, it's relatively minor and easily addressed. My major contention is the lack of consideration for each side's viewpoint. The hardcores should be rewarded just as the casuals should be respected.
A 75/25 split respects casuals and affords them a meaningful chance to participate in the end game, and it respects the dedication and effort of the hardcore.
75/25 might be workable if you include VP. VP is 6 targets out of 19, about 1/3 of the raid pie, and only accessible to few. VP is your reward, stop treating it like its not a gigantic slice of the pie. The raid points system includes VP as part of the pie.

8)
No poop socking agreement:
No guild will have more than 2 members present at any given time during period of time where either Venril Sathir or Trakanon are in window. Specifically those tracking for VS will not be in the room. This will apply to all mobs.

Naturally, there are times that will exist where it is necessary to have more than 2 trackers in the zone for an encounter. There are, however, instances where more than 2 characters from any guilds will need to be in zone. If a guild is CoTHing members down or buffing they may do so, and they may med to full. Upon reaching full mana or completing a CoTH the surplus members must log off and not maintain a presence.

There will no longer be grouping in the VS pit to circumvent the 2-player no-sock rule. This is easy to justify as it’s a terrible spot for exp and has relatively no value for any player to be here if they aren’t looking to manipulate this rule.

In addition, guilds are able to engage Prot and Tola within a reasonable amount of time and may not malinger in the zone after the mobs have been killed.

With the agreement to remove socking as a tactic, we request that GMs significantly reduce variance, as it only serves as a detriment to everyone at this point.
You haven't solved poopsocking at all, you've just pushed people onto alts. The characters are still there, holding onto buff timers with a crapton of "gray area" for rules-lawyering like, "All 45 of us were just buffing for the last 4 hours. We are practicing dueling each other, rezzing back, and buff and med back up and do it again."
9)
This is not expandable to Velious AT ALL. What, you make VP (minus PD) and Kunark "de-prioritized"? That still leaves 100% of Velious as a clusterfuck for 80+% of the server. Renegotiating this short-sighted agreement in a few months (hopefully) when Velious is released or in late-stage beta (because I'm hoping we're that proactive) will be a nightmare. I personally advocate pouring a foundation now that will be more easily built upon when the raid content triples with Velious. Having to start from scratch again is extremely shortsighted when it took an act of Rogean to get TMO to come to the negotiating table in the first place.
10)
Also, raid infractions until this point have been a joke. It takes no more CSR involvement to say, "You done fucked up, take a month off," than it does to say, "You done fucked up, take a week off." Institute a 3-strike system if you are worried about over-penalization, but this slap on the wrist stuff doesn't deter anti-PNP behavior. You drop a few heavy handed punishments (like this current one), and people clean their shit up, real quick. Heck, you could even use this "hardcore vs. casual" system against casual guilds, "Casual_guild_A, you trained Casual_Guild_B today, you are "hardcore" status for a month, have fun training now." And if they still try their shit with hardcore guilds, hardcore guilds are used to it, document it better, and you can levy hardcore punishments against them.

[baramur]

Holy Jesus this is unnecessarily obscure.

Nagafen/Vox = Open Raid targets only. All may participate.
Epic (Trak, VS, Fay, Inny, CT, Sev, Maestro) = Rotated
Farm (Tal, Gore, Draco) = Rotated
VP = Competition to please that crowd

Week1

Guild 1 = Trakanon + Talendor
Guild 2 = VS + Gorenaire
Guild 3 = Faydedar + Severelious
Guild 4 = Inny + Maestro
Guild 5 = CT + Draco

Week 2

Guild 5 = Trakanon + Talendor
Guild 1 = VS + Gorenaire
Guild 2 = Faydedar + Severelious
Guild 3 = Inny + Maestro
Guild 4 = CT + Draco

You get a whole week for your mob, Sunday at midnight to Saturday at 11:59 PM.

Throw in a simulated spawn once a month at random time of the month.

Rotation implodes upon Velious. New guilds may request one mob be left up for them to attempt a week. The mob they may request from would be a guild with VP access. So if TMO has Fay + Sev and FE/IB has Inny + Maestro, new guild may pick one of those 4 to attempt that week.

Worst. No competition at all. Lame and Boring.

[Thulack]

Worst. No competition at all. Lame and Boring.

VP is the competition.

[Daldaen]

Apparently VP doesn't have 6 dragons in it, who knew!

[Rhambuk]

I hope something comes from all of this, even reading about it has sparked my interest in restarting.

Just ANYTHING else than what we have now

[lecompte]

This thread was.... interesting. More interesting than work, anyway. The "Official Proposal" requires too much GM intervention. I'm a fan of point system cause you know EVERYONE will keep track of that!~

[williestargell]

I'm not sure "commenting" on specific points of this agreement is worthwhile at all at this point. It seems to me that what was said about two factions existing is indeed the case. This proposal is unlikely to fly with the Cat B guilds without more radical change.

1) Enforcement is Key - not just enforcement of what mobs are available to who, but enforcement of training, ninja-looting, other dirty tricks. Requiring a 5 out of 6 super-majority pretty much eliminates any chance of enforcement. Competing with TMO/IB/FE is not the problem - putting up with their dirty tricks IS. Cat B guilds will still want to compete all month long and if we're getting intentionally trained, then we need the power to raid suspend, suspend toons, and even perma-ban people. There needs to be some radical change to this area.

2) The Cat A guilds need to give significantly more. Cat B guilds are not looking for anything for free, but saying you can have a handful of mobs one week a month (during which week the mob might never spawn) is completely and totally insufficient.

3) There is nothing in here about what happens when Velious comes out.

There are other proposals out there, and there will have to be compromise. Getting this done by the 2nd is highly unlikely. That's ok, we can all live without raid targets for a few days in order to achieve an agreement that will have more long-lasting benefits to everyone.

[Rhambuk]

This thread was.... interesting. More interesting than work, anyway. The "Official Proposal" requires too much GM intervention. I'm a fan of point system cause you know EVERYONE will keep track of that!~

People are so anti gm intervention, im not sure if its they dont want to cause trouble on volunteers or if its something else but I am sure there are more than enough people that would be willing to volunteer to silently watch raids to make sure rules are followed.

Gm status, invisible don't show up on who no one would even know your watching, rules broken pop up stop it reset. if it goes smooth great.

I just don't see why people don't want the gm's involved

[-Catherin-]

FE/IB/BDA/Taken/Div/TMO leaders all met in vent for 3 hrs

no policy was agreed to.....

we meet again on Wed

cross your fingers p99......

The good news that as a result of the meeting of the minds (or neckbeards :p ) was that alternatives have been discussed, as well as an alternative that the "majority" of the guilds would be on board with. It was not unanimous though. Because of that not going into any further detail of what "might be"

hopefully though they can get the remaining 10% on board soon.

[heazels]

My proposal is a server wipe. Yours is almost good though npnp

[heazels]

Add

TMO cannot kill trakanon unless he goes uncontested for 2 hrs since they have reached their allotment of trakanon teeth(600 teeth).

[heazels]

Add

TMO cannot kill trakanon unless he goes uncontested for 2 hrs since they have reached their allotment of trakanon teeth(600 teeth).

Also turn off multiquesting, verant has always said it was a bug from the beginning and never intended... Thats why quest items are no drop.

[Rhambuk]

Also turn off multiquesting, verant has always said it was a bug from the beginning and never intended... Thats why quest items are no drop.

I've never seen a statement from verant claiming it was a bug.

and if it was it would be the best bug ever, so terrible to let epic drops rot because your wizard that needed the piece couldn't be online that night. Sorry man it dropped but we let it rot maybe youll get one in the next 6 months....


*
Though I do agree it should be turned off here.

[heazels]

I've never seen a statement from verant claiming it was a bug.

and if it was it would be the best bug ever, so terrible to let epic drops rot because your wizard that needed the piece couldn't be online that night. Sorry man it dropped but we let it rot maybe youll get one in the next 6 months....


*
Though I do agree it should be turned off here.

Unfortunately the message boards don't really exist anymore, not even on archive.org but it is true none-the-less. Think about it. Why would they take the time to make items NO-DROP? DUH

[heazels]

I've never seen a statement from verant claiming it was a bug.

and if it was it would be the best bug ever, so terrible to let epic drops rot because your wizard that needed the piece couldn't be online that night. Sorry man it dropped but we let it rot maybe youll get one in the next 6 months....


*
Though I do agree it should be turned off here.

how about, oh we cant farm trak teeth anymore, multiquesting is turned off so lets not prevent other guilds from getting in VP so much

[gwideon]

Just something to consider when talking about a points system...

What do you do when 1 guild either splits into two or sticks a bunch of alts into a brand new guild...?

How will you know if that new guild is a legitimate separate entity, or just a ploy for more points?

Will you just go with your gut feeling and tell a guild that may in fact be its own thing separate from the original guild 'no, you can't raid because we think you're exploiting points'?

Just a thought. Not saying you can't do it.

I mentioned this in a previous thread; feeder guilds and shadow guilds. I think the only way to discourage this is to have a self regulated mandatory wait to raid for people in a guild for less than 30 days. It doesn't completely address the issue, but it would serve to discourage it.

[williestargell]

I mentioned this in a previous thread; feeder guilds and shadow guilds. I think the only way to discourage this is to have a self regulated mandatory wait to raid for people in a guild for less than 30 days. It doesn't completely address the issue, but it would serve to discourage it.


I believe the "other" proposal on the table addresses this concern with a good sized waiting period

[Nirgon]

These kids can't appreciate slaying orcs in the commonlands. They can't LIVE without PD loot.

Sickening.

[Ravager]

I can live with not raiding a month if it means fixing a one sided proposal like this.

Been living with it for years. What's another month?

[Ravager]

This whole thing is overly complicated and clearly one-sided. The points system is the fairest for promoting competition, easiest to maintain and enforce, as well as giving everyone a fair shot at any mob they want to attempt. Also, the points system has the added bonus of forcing people act like adults and actually make choices.

[Alarti0001]

This whole thing is overly complicated and clearly one-sided. The points system is the fairest for promoting competition, easiest to maintain and enforce, as well as giving everyone a fair shot at any mob they want to attempt. Also, the points system has the added bonus of forcing people act like adults and actually make choices.

No its not.

[Versus]

This isn't a socialist server. There shouldn't be an equal distribution of raid mobs to the guilds. Tell me what live server had the 5th best guild killing equal mobs as the 1st best guild?

[Daldaen]

This isn't a socialist server. There shouldn't be an equal distribution of raid mobs to the guilds. Tell me what live server had the 5th best guild killing equal mobs as the 1st best guild?

This is why VP should remain competitive and everything else should be rotated.

The 1st and 2nd guilds will get the best PD loot and then everyone else will get the open world stuff until they are able to try to compete if they want to in VP.

[Alarti0001]

This is why VP should remain competitive and everything else should be rotated.



Why? You said this is why.. but you didn't elaborate as to why. Do so.

[Versus]

I hope everyone recognizes the fact that this whole problem stems from no Velious. These mobs would be completely open if the top 3 guilds were busy in Velious.