OFFICIAL PROPOSAL from FE/TMO

[Ravager]

the war epic ALWAYS had the green scale cock block. If its still rare on a 1k population server with YEARS of kunark... You think it was 'easy to get' or cheap on a 2k population live server with less than a year of kunark?

rotation is dumb as shit folks...

the 'top guilds' do not think they should just be given all the mob, they think that within the rules they should be able to WORK and COMPETE to get as many as they can... Its everyone else that wants rotation or candy loot bags given to them that are the ones saying they are entitled to stuff...

most of the population just sits back and says 'well I got my epic on live and didn't super raid!' yes, after the changes to epics after velious... During Kunark and early vel they where rare and elite...well sans rouge lol

Green scale will be cheap to get when warriors don't have to pay TMO for it.

[Nirgon]

I hope everyone recognizes the fact that this whole problem stems from no Velious. These mobs would be completely open if the top 3 guilds were busy in Velious.

http://www.bibleprobe.com/mtsinai3.jpg

[Ravager]

no agreement was met because the 'lower tier' guilds are pulling a power play to create a communistic rotation, and that's not meant as a flame, its really a form of commune thought- that all the community is all entitled to an equal share of the wealth and those that do high end jobs and have high education and or experience get and should have the same as the low end workers and non experienced peoples.

the masses love it!

Pretty sure the decision was left up to the masses and not the elite. In a system where pixels are artificially generated (you're not doing work to pop a mob), why should anyone be more entitled to it than someone else?

[Hitpoint]

Pretty sure the decision was left up to the masses and not the elite. In a system where pixels are artificially generated (you're not doing work to pop a mob), why should anyone be more entitled to it than someone else?

Because some people still put in much more effort. It's very, very simple.

[Clark]

Thanks for your input butters. But we need qualified input - guilded invested individuals who have experience with these things.

What the hell are you talking about?

[Nirgon]

Let's take a poll with all American citizens of how taxes and welfare should be handled.

[Ravager]

No its not.

Yes it is.

[Ciroco]

Because some people still put in much more effort. It's very, very simple.

Everyone wants effort to be rewarded. The problem is that the level of effort required to field one raid mob has reached a level that (I assume) no one is comfortable with.

[Ravager]

Because some people still put in much more effort. It's very, very simple.

But putting in the effort is stupid. It's like installing a pump to a natural spring. It's not everyone's fault that 10% of the population make a shit ton of work just because they want more.

[falkun]

I hope everyone recognizes the fact that this whole problem stems from no Velious. These mobs would be completely open if the top 3 guilds were busy in Velious.

Then why are you advocating a proposal that does not scale into Velious? Do you want to have everyone raid suspended again when Velious drops while we figure out a new agreement? Or would you rather have the agreement hashed out now so when Velious drops the server can easily adapt it to the new content and raiding can continue unimpeded?

This deal is shortsighted.

[Ravager]

Let's take a poll with all American citizens of how taxes and welfare should be handled.

Because P99 raid scene and Federal Finance are exactly the same thing. I suppose the money is artificial in both scenarios though.

[Alarti0001]

Then why are you advocating a proposal that does not scale into Velious? Do you want to have everyone raid suspended again when Velious drops while we figure out a new agreement? Or would you rather have the agreement hashed out now so when Velious drops the server can easily adapt it to the new content and raiding can continue unimpeded?

This deal is shortsighted.

It is shortsighted to compare the velious raid environment to the 3year old kunark one.

[Nirgon]

Limited resources and a system of distribution where no one can agree on it.

Sounds about right big Rav.

Imagine a live server that by around PoP, nothing had come out past Kunark. We got roughly the same problem, but we've tacked 50%+ xp bonus weekends on top of it (hellllooo Chardok!).

Accept that its the CONTENT and this problem was INEVITABLE. Take the free mob agreement or continue to get NOTHING while the lifers are happy with their mountain of pixels until Velious.

Do you not realize this effectively means they don't have to raid anymore to continue to secure their advantage until then? Hell, I bet some of em were actually hoping for a break in trying way too hard for that #1 spot.

[Hitpoint]

Everyone wants effort to be rewarded. The problem is that the level of effort required to field one raid mob has reached a level that (I assume) no one is comfortable with.

I think more people are comfortable with it than you guys realize.

[Ciroco]

Take the free mob agreement or continue to get NOTHING while the lifers are happy with their mountain of pixels until Velious.

Yeahhh, the lower tier guilds aren't going to be devastated that they're going from almost none of these targets to literally zero.

Do you not realize this effectively means they don't have to raid anymore to continue to secure their advantage until then? Hell, I bet some of em were actually hoping for a break in trying way too hard for that #1 spot.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems the only people who care about who the #1 guild is is the #1 guild.

[baramur]

I think velious should be 100percent competition on every single mob for first 3 months. Just like live the best guilds should be the first to conquer, after its been around a bit then work to adjust.

[Happyfeet]

Then why are you advocating a proposal that does not scale into Velious? Do you want to have everyone raid suspended again when Velious drops while we figure out a new agreement? Or would you rather have the agreement hashed out now so when Velious drops the server can easily adapt it to the new content and raiding can continue unimpeded?

This deal is shortsighted.

That's the whole point, we won't "need" an agreement for Velious, we just fucking need Velious. If we added another 50 raid targets, I think that would just solve our problem. There are enough armor dropping mobs for everyone if you factor in farming PoG. Everyone can spread out and not be stepping on each others toes constantly. Even Vindi spawns every 8 hours!

I'm going to go ahead and post the list of named mobs for you in Velious so you all can start working on your rotation now, I figure it will take 19 versions of Excel spanning from 1.0 to current.

Lord Yelinak
King Tormax
Dain Frostreaver IV
Lord Velketor
Lord Doljonijiarnimorinar
Zlandicar
Neb
Klandicar
Sontalak
Kelorek'Dar
Wuoshi
Lodizal
Kelorek`Dar
Stormfeather
Derakor the Vindicator
Statue of Rallos Zek
Idol of Rallos Zek
Avatar of War
Bristlebane
Tunare
Ancient Totem
Fayl Everstrong
Prince Thirneg
Galiel Spirithoof
Grahl Strongback
A Phase Puma
Ordro
Sarik the Fang
Treah Greenroot
Undogo Digolo
Dozekar the Cursed
Casalen
Grozzmel
Krigara
Lepethida
Midayor
Tavekalem
Ymmeln
Arreken Skyward
Gozzrem
Lendiniara the Keeper
Telkorenar
Aaryonar
Cekenar
Dagarn the Destroyer
Eashen of the Sky
Ikatiar the Venom
Jorlleag
Lady Mirenilla
Lady Nevederia
Lord Feshlak
Lord Koi'Doken
Lord Kreizenn
Lord Vyemm
Sevalak
Vulak`Aerr
Zlexak
Atpaev
Ayillish
Bratavar
Bufa
Cargalia
Del Sapara
Derasinal
Draazak
Entari
Esorpa of the Ring
Gafala
Gangel
Glati
Harla Dar
Hechaeva
Honvar
Icehackle
Ionat
Jen Sapara
Kar Sapara
Karkona
Klandicar
Linbrak
Makala
Makil Rargon
Mazi
Melalafen
Mraaka
Myga
Neordla
Nintal
Onava
Pantrilla
Quoza
Stronghorn
Tantor
Tranala
Tsiraka
Uiliak
Vitaela
Von
Vraptin
Yal
Yeldema
Zil Sapara (The Dragon Sage)
Guardian Kozzalym

[Versus]

Then why are you advocating a proposal that does not scale into Velious? Do you want to have everyone raid suspended again when Velious drops while we figure out a new agreement? Or would you rather have the agreement hashed out now so when Velious drops the server can easily adapt it to the new content and raiding can continue unimpeded?

This deal is shortsighted.

I'd like to point out that *I* have not advocated anything. I am going about my life as normal and when the suspension lifts and the agreement is made, I trust in TMO leadership to make it one that I can live with. I am comforted in the fact that there will NOT be a rotation.

To answer your question: No, I do not want some bullshit care bear agreement to be carried over into Velious. Perhaps when Velious drops all these problems go away by themselves as the more casual guilds will get a majority of the Kunark raid mobs + VP while the more hard core raid guilds are concentrating on ToV and NToV. Just like how it was in 2000. Granted, they will pop back up two years into Velious, but we can deal with that then.

[Mezzmur]

That's the whole point, we won't "need" an agreement for Velious, we just fucking need Velious. If we added another 50 raid targets, I think that would just solve our problem. There are enough armor dropping mobs for everyone if you factor in farming PoG. Everyone can spread out and not be stepping on each others toes constantly. Even Vindi spawns every 8 hours!

Giant Arena Rotations INC, Server Pop high enough for 24/7 armor farms!

[Razdeline]

Giant Arena Rotations INC, Server Pop high enough for 24/7 armor farms!

Considering Arena mobs can be done with less than a group of 50's, there will be no rotations there just people camping the spawns.

[Nirgon]

Yeahhh, the lower tier guilds aren't going to be devastated that they're going from almost none of these targets to literally zero.


Well if you'd rather not get anything, so bet it. Way to seize the opportunity to guarantee yourselves mobs.



Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems the only people who care about who the #1 guild is is the #1 guild.


Nah, I believe in rewarding teams that put in effort. But I'm also highly in favor of guaranteeing you guys some mobs. Especially ones you need to complete epics (hint not in VP). I think them locking down Faydedar, for instance, is ridiculous at this point... or Innoruuk/CT.

It's very easy to see me also support the top 2 guilds and categorize me to an extreme. However, I try to remain objective and fair.

Fair isn't raid mobs being left up for 2 days. Try to understand that in EQ, raid content was designed for a top % of the player base. Try to understand you have been in Kunark WAY too long, but, also for a good reason. Nilbog and company have taken time to circle back after adding that necessary extra content to fix a *ton* of glaring mechanical issues/non-classic content.

Maybe a halfway done Velious release that is kind of messed up isn't the worst thing that could happen. If rampage works, fine do it. If you can drag a person who is KOS to claws of veeshan/yelinak past dragons for a little while? Okay fine. But the problem here is the # of players and content. I don't necessarily blame a top guild for trying to secure best in slot loots from the loot pool available. Cast your bias aside and try to realize what I've been advocating.

[Razdeline]

Top guilds can not compromise on the monopoly they have created with the assistance of modern technology, and lower tier guilds do not understand the philosophy of rotational content/no competition.

Needs more middle ground.

[Alarti0001]

Cast your bias aside and try to realize what I've been advocating.

http://i.imgur.com/7N1Jf46.jpg

[Ciroco]

Well if you'd rather not get anything, so bet it. Way to seize the opportunity to guarantee yourselves mobs.

Oh, it's certainly an improvement over the current state of things. I just think you're kidding yourself if you think that the casuals are going to be the ones hurting during an armistice. They've been playing like this for 2 years; what's a little longer?

Beyond that, I agree with most of what you're saying. Believe it or not, casuals like competition. The race during the forced repop was a ton of fun. We're just oversaturated with raid guilds and the fact that casuals are getting stomped by batphoning alt armies for gear that they don't need (in everyone's opinion but theirs, of course) is disheartening.

[Ravager]

http://i.imgur.com/7N1Jf46.jpg

You've ruined George Clooney, Alarti! I'll not let you ruin The Princess Bride!

[radditsu]

You've ruined George Clooney, Alarti! I'll not let you ruin The Princess Bride!

Screw that he will not ruin WALLACE SHAWN!!!!'

[Elmarnieh]

Who the hell considers Tantor to be a raid target? 60 ranger fear kite solo mob.

[radditsu]

Who the hell considers Tantor to be a raid target? 60 ranger fear kite solo mob.

Tusk much twink

[Alarti0001]

Who the hell considers Tantor to be a raid target? 60 ranger fear kite solo mob.

He actually said named mobs. Prob missing some in that case

[Mac Dretti]

Designated hitters from each guild have to play a league of legends bracket tournament to decide mob rotation per week. Winner gets first pick 2nd gets 2nd etc until all mobs are accounted for.

Wins losses on a point system for future seeding.

[Ecguy]

Lol bad loans. Oh man you have no clue the costs associated with managing Non-Performing Loans. From a corporate standpoint, making bad loans has a huge cost.

[Versus]

Hope you're satisfied Rogean & co. You have created a bunch of insatiable casual monsters who plan to bully everyone else around in hopes of getting their free mobs at a time and place convenient to them.

[Sinestria]

Hope you're satisfied Rogean & co. You have created a bunch of insatiable casual monsters who plan to bully everyone else around.

Lol

[nawcor]

This whole thing has a rich stay rich and the poor stay poor mentality behind it. There has been such a monopoly on all high end content, that the player base has been forced to join two different guilds to accomplish anything. I'd go as far to say that a lot of players in those guilds would be in others if there wasn't such a monopoly.

These "casual" guilds are forced to be more casual then they may care to be because there has been no way for them to really offer those targets to prospects/members. If there was an agreement to let these guilds progress at a reasonable rate you wouldn't have so much push back from the rest of the server. Of course, if any of these guilds make enough progress and end up as a challenge to the top guilds, that's no good, especially if its before velious right? (See first line of post) The best thing about that? I'd bet a lot of us dont really care to try to challenge you at the hardcore mode, just the chance to progress and not be held down with their face in the dirt.

[Erati]

Hope you're satisfied Rogean & co. You have created a bunch of insatiable casual monsters who plan to bully everyone else around in hopes of getting their free mobs at a time and place convenient to them.

double lawl

nothing is free.......you still have to be in a proper guild ( takes work ) ....you still have to track the mob since we have VARIANCE ( takes work) ..... you still have to prep for the mob ( takes work)..... you still have to kill the mob ( takes work)... AND

you only have a limited time before your opportunity expires ( takes work)

man that sounds like a lot of work for something that is convenient, free and a hand out

[Versus]

Go play WoW if you want your rotational instanced bullshit.

[JayN]

Hope you're satisfied Rogean & co. You have created a bunch of insatiable casual monsters who plan to bully everyone else around in hopes of getting their free mobs at a time and place convenient to them.

its called eq mac part II; aka the begining of the end!

I hope not at least; but seriously I know this all has to do with those Mac'ers some how

I am now in favor of instances/Tokens distribution/GM enforced Rotations.

Not one casual would ever commit to giving more hardcore types any advantage for being hardcore.... this will never work, they want everyone to conform to casual status and make things "easy" and "no competition"

[Sinestria]

Go play WoW if you want your rotational instanced bullshit.

Go play Starcraft if you love to zerg

[Splorf22]

Let's take a poll with all American citizens of how taxes and welfare should be handled.

this happens every two years

[Sinestria]

its called eq mac part II; aka the begining of the end!

I hope not at least; but seriously I know this all has to do with those Mac'ers some how

I am now in favor of instances/Tokens distribution/GM enforced Rotations.

Not one casual would ever commit to giving more hardcore types any advantage for being hardcore.... this will never work, they want everyone to conform to casual status and make things "easy" and "no competition"

Bag system gives hardcore players the more hardcore mobs. It just ensures they they stop raping Naggy and Vox

[Joroz]

Hope you're satisfied Rogean & co. You have created a bunch of insatiable casual monsters who plan to bully everyone else around in hopes of getting their free mobs at a time and place convenient to them.

Do you honestly think they care? I would say no, they created this environment for everyone or for themselves, who knows, but certain players have turned this nice paradise into a shit hole... now its time for a correction. It doesn't matter how much work or dedication you put into this game, you are not owed anything, you don't pay subscriptions and are entitled to nothing. This server will go the direction those that created it want it to go. You guys being in the position you are in now is obviously not the right direction they want this server going. Rotations are shit nothing should be free, but at the same time the raid game shouldn't be pushed so far out of the reach of the regular players where if they cannot down a mob with in 2 minutes of the spawn time they shouldn't be considered as competition.

The biggest thing that should go into any of these agreements which has been completely skipped over would be absolutely no camping out at a raid target, no alts, no mains, no anything. People should be allowed to poopsock all they want with one condition, they are actively killing stuff and not AFK, this is called effort, i know that word gets thrown around a lot but there is no effort moving a toon to a place and camping him out waiting for that call.

Bag limits are also nice, they just introduce strategy to competition and encourage guild to guild communications on how people can effectively use their points... might be nice to be a little less mindless. Also very scalable solution.

And to those guilds that say they need bigger limits because they have more members... sorry, you chose to recruit everyone instead of being selective, that is your problem to deal with not the rest of the servers.

[Ravager]

Go play WoW if you want your rotational instanced bullshit.

Go play Red if you want to fight and work for mobs.

[Godefroi]

Happy new year everyone ! please keep working on an agreement, Im coming back in 10 days and Im sure by then something will work !

we are all dead otherwise anyways.

saludos to alarti n co, currently in santa marta and scuba diving lol ;)

feliz ano nuevo !!!

[citizen1080]

Happy new year everyone ! please keep working on an agreement, Im coming back in 10 days and Im sure by then something will work !

we are all dead otherwise anyways.

saludos to alarti n co, currently in santa marta and scuba diving lol ;)

feliz ano nuevo !!!

Take some video and post it to my diving thread in off topic..id like to see that area..might be there next year to dive.

[Nlaar]

this happens every two years

Love it.

[Elements]

so in velious, we can expect TMO, FE, IB and whatever other guild that makes Cat A by then, give up all the top priority targets the first week of every month?

After 2+ years of velious? possibly.

[Elements]

If a unanimous decision is reached on this issue, I vote the leaders of the respective guild son this server be made leaders of the countries representing the UN and the next order of business be to solve all the global problems of the world.

[fishingme]

lol, holy shit, guys. It's a video game, haha

[Llodd]

lol, holy shit, guys. It's a video game, haha

Yop great one tho eh! Keep goin guys, appreciate the work you doin

[Clark]

If a unanimous decision is reached on this issue, I vote the leaders of the respective guild son this server be made leaders of the countries representing the UN and the next order of business be to solve all the global problems of the world.

lol

[heazels]

Go play WoW if you want your rotational instanced bullshit.

wow is actually harder than this game when you camp out players at a mob and log in when you get a text message. You have a better chance of dieing in wow

[sanforce]

wow is actually harder than this game when you camp out players at a mob and log in when you get a text message. You have a better chance of dieing in wow

Sorry, but alts are part of this raid scene too. If someone wants to work hard and get multiple level 60s, they deserve to use those characters. Whether in a primary guild or a secondary one, alts are going to be used. Choosing to camp a main or alt at a raid target is a strategy that was used in classic eq, not sure why it is an issue here.

[heazels]

If you killed more than half the dragons in VP at any point in the last spawn set, you cannot kill any dragons outside of VP for two weeks.

[Xadion]

If you killed more than half the dragons in VP at any point in the last spawn set, you cannot kill any dragons outside of VP for two weeks.

people would leave SW, Druu, and Xyggy up and kill PD Hosh and Nexo... Maybe a druushy every now and then for a sow sword or a SW for PE hammer but they would just not kill nexo then..

seriously people, Velious, Hate 2.0 and CT 2.0 (epic drop changes) would solve a ton of issues... The sheer number of things to do a single guild cannot keep everything on lockdown, and if they do - bravo that's insane.

if the variances are changed to a few hours, so that repops tend to overlap guilds will have to choose targets, longer velious raids will allow other guilds to take shots at stuff.

if tunare, dain and yeilinak are all up you must choose wisely...and no option 4 is not, zerg Dain rush yili and leapfrog the guild at tunare

tunare encounter needs a rule to itself, like 3 mini bosses secures your attempt or something.

[Mezzmur]

I'll make this clear too.

Im more than willing to be raid suspended for a week, or a month, or longer, if that's what its going to take for a proper agreement for everyone. This doesn't hurt me. This doesn't hurt the smaller guilds. Taken looses the respectable number of targets we get but it also gives us a break from this toxicity in the promise of something better in the future for all of us.

Not sure if I can say that about everyone in the top Guilds though so you had better think about that.

Hate, Fear and Sky off limits too. This is a loss for everyone, really.

[Erati]

pretty sure Sky has nothing to do with the 'raid' agreement we are trying to make as there has been no mention of changing anything about Sky except maybe the Efreetis

but nice try.....

even if we are banned from raiding Sky we will just quietly refresh our corpses :P

[Mezzmur]

Go play Red if you want to fight and work for mobs.

There's a difference between attacking PCs to get to the PVE content vs racing and putting time into a game to get PVE content.

Just like playing any other game on earth you get out what you put in. It's just that EQ was always a more time dependent game which is why so many hardcore gamers loved it.

[Mezzmur]

pretty sure Sky has nothing to do with the 'raid' agreement we are trying to make as there has been no mention of changing anything about Sky except maybe the Efreetis

but nice try.....

even if we are banned from raiding Sky we will just quietly refresh our corpses :P

I'm telling you said that all planes are off limits in a raid suspension period. They said this last night in sirkens stream if we hit the Jan2 deadline.

They also said they will very likely not repop rotted corpses due to suspensions. Both questions asked explicitly last night.

[Daldaen]

Sorry, but alts are part of this raid scene too. If someone wants to work hard and get multiple level 60s, they deserve to use those characters. Whether in a primary guild or a secondary one, alts are going to be used. Choosing to camp a main or alt at a raid target is a strategy that was used in classic eq, not sure why it is an issue here.

I think everyone can agree that 3 years of Kunark and free accounts makes the prevalence of Alts being used on raids way more common here than it was on classic. And camping out at targets, to the point of "accountx is my Trakanon toon"... No.

[Nlaar]

I'm telling you said that all planes are off limits in a raid suspension period. They said this last night in sirkens stream if we hit the Jan2 deadline.

They also said they will very likely not repop rotted corpses due to suspensions. Both questions asked explicitly last night.

Again, it would be great if these types of statements & decisions were posted on the forums in an official thread instead of hearing second hand about a stream conversation. Ridiculous.

[Mezzmur]

Again, it would be great if these types of statements & decisions were posted on the forums in an official thread instead of hearing second hand about a stream conversation. Ridiculous.

Hopefully it's not necessary. I'm sure if it's drawn out and comes to it, they will.

[Morbo the Annihilator]

Go play WoW if you want your rotational instanced bullshit.

You've been so warped by the end-game grind that you can't appreciate what people are trying to change.

Ask yourself, "what is the CHALLENGE for killing x mob?".
The answer for every raid boss is tracking and mobilisation. there are no other challenges right now.

People want the challenge of Everquest to be the PVE content.
The challenge shouldn't be camping toons and making sure you have your mobile phone on you 24/7 so you can receive a batphone.

People want to take down CT with their friends and be satisfied that they are experiencing new content.

So, allow people to be challenged by the content for once. For 15 days of every month, let a structured rotation dictate which content guilds will get to experience. The remaining 15 days, you can play Sockquest, Trackquest, Altquest to your heart's desire, as they are the challenges that the majority of players are not willing to participate in.

[Lostprophets]

Go play WoW if you want your rotational instanced bullshit.

Why don't you go play red and compete for mobs in PVP for real competition. I'm sure Nihilum will welcome your competitiveness with open arms. :)

[toosweet]

P1999- Where Everyone gets a trophy!

[sedrie.bellamie]

P1999- Where Everyone gets a trophy!

can Roegen just show up once a week and give everyone their choice of a DE mask, cof, or free epic MQ?

[Fazlazen]

Why don't you go play red and compete for mobs in PVP for real competition. I'm sure Nihilum will welcome your competitiveness with open arms. :)

GUYS LOSPROFET NEEDS MORE LEWTS FOR HIS ALTS. LEAVE HIS SERVER!!

[Seltius]

I'll make this clear too.

Im more than willing to be raid suspended for a week, or a month, or longer, if that's what its going to take for a proper agreement for everyone. This doesn't hurt me. This doesn't hurt the smaller guilds. Taken looses the respectable number of targets we get but it also gives us a break from this toxicity in the promise of something better in the future for all of us.

Not sure if I can say that about everyone in the top Guilds though so you had better think about that.

Hmm so the GMs are going to let this extortion stand? I saw all your other posts deflecting and trying to say that isn't what you were saying. The bottom line is atm you said you would rather extort the guilds that don't support your idea since it wont hurt you. I guess you intended to do Sky, Hate, and Fear during the suspension or maybe all of your guild was going to hang with you in EC. That's an idea make EC off limits during this time also. Anyone in EC more than the time it takes to run through it gets suspended.

It seems like any improvement to the raiding scene would help you. Baby steps all it would take is to revisit and adjust the rules periodically to keep people in check and to control any unforeseen oversights. But you don't want things to improve you want to go to being the "oppressors" with the people you feel oppressed you being your victims now.

You want a point system then make it an effort based system that rewards guilds that are willing to put in the effort tracking and killing the targets that take more work/effort.

[-Catherin-]

I'm going to have to make a ticker of how many times people quote that post and try put their own spin on it.

better for everyone doesn't just mean better for me. Better for everyone also doesn't mean that everyone gets what they want. The better for the whole usually requires concessions from people.

Anyone with basic reading comprehension and who are able to see through the red haze of their own rage will understand the meaning of my stance. And its not holding anyone hostage. It is however, not rushing to a compromise that doesn't truly fix the situation because you just want to scare us into it with a looming raid suspension.

I've said this many times already. People continue with their false accusations and word games and try to pick it apart to distract people from the real issue. how about you work to offer some solutions because your continuing poo slinging isn't helping

[Fazlazen]

I'm going to have to make a ticker of how many times people quote that post and try put their own spin on it.

better for everyone doesn't just mean better for me. Better for everyone also doesn't mean that everyone gets what they want. The better for the whole usually requires concessions from people.

Anyone with basic reading comprehension and who are able to see through the red haze of their own rage will understand the meaning of my stance. And its not holding anyone hostage. It is however, not rushing to a compromise that doesn't truly fix the situation because you just want to scare us into it with a looming raid suspension.

I've said this many times already. People continue with their false accusations and word games and try to pick it apart to distract people from the real issue. how about you work to offer some solutions because your continuing poo slinging isn't helping

Go back to Lower Guk Catt. We'll sell you loot, ok?

[Seltius]

I'm going to have to make a ticker of how many times people quote that post.

better for everyone doesn't just mean better for me. Better for everyone also doesn't mean that everyone gets what they want. The better for the whole usually requires concessions from people.

Anyone with basic reading comprehension and who are able to see through the red haze of their own rage will understand the meaning of my stance.

Oh I understand it and I have no rage here for the raid situation. You don't like the concessions guilds are willing to make. You want an across the board sweep that makes everyone equal no matter the difference in effort they have or are willing to put into the game. You said it no one else did. You threatened Extortion because someone else didn't support your stance. We all have to live with things we say here. I had to eat crow last night because of something I said and guess what you do too. The difference is I wasn't threatening to hold someone else's game play hostage until they gave into my demands. The game lawyers are needed in this thread to determine if there are illegal shenanigans going on atm!!


Its funny everyone seems to think people that are serious raiders or that are raiding endgame have no life, live in basements with no light and are neckbeards. Oh and are virgins that never leave their basements. Its not necessarily true. Though I think I need to shave again since im getting a little scruffy haven't shaved since Monday.

Tell you what once the guilds stop reading these threads and work together to figure this out it will be interesting to see the changes. I really hope if people like you try to intentionally stall the process they face some consequences.

Anyway going to finish watching Sgt Bilko and then go out and enjoy the sunshine. Got a lot to do today. If you're in the area your welcome to a ham biscuit I cooked the ham last night so it will have to be reheated.

[-Catherin-]

You want a point system then make it an effort based system that rewards guilds that are willing to put in the effort tracking and killing the targets that take more work/effort.

If you have truly been following my posts then you would know that a different compromise has been offered by the majority in a vent conversation among the guild reps two nights ago, that is being revisited tonight before the hammer comes down. So if you are going to make these kind of statements at least know what you are talking about.

[Tecmos Deception]

Hmm so the GMs are going to let this extortion stand?

They are promoting the "extortion", genius.

[Hitpoint]

I"ll be honest. It looks like Taken and BDA and whoever else are simply trying to squeeze more out of this situation because the GMs gave you the power to do so. Your right, raid suspension hurts the big guilds more. And yes, GMs want a unanimous agreement from all guilds.

Let's imagine that we weren't threatened with a raid suspension and this current proposal was posted. People would go fucking INSANE for it. Big guilds said they are willing to give up tons of targets every month, including 1/4th of the ones they want the most. Guilds that were previously getting nothing, can get multiple targets weekly. They can set up a rotation between themselves if they don't want to do any work. That's left up to them. And still allowed to compete with the top guilds if they choose to. Nothing even close to this has ever been on the table. It would be accepted without a second thought, there would be no holding out for MORE. Want some inside info? This agreement was drafted and posted on our boards for review a day before Sirken's threat. Our officers didn't come up with this because they had the threat of a suspension looming. They actually wanted to make the raid scene better. And you all shit on it like this, just because you can. Imo threatening the server was a mistake, and now this is all so messy and hateful when it doesn't need to be.

[Seltius]

If you have truly been following my posts then you would know that a different compromise has been offered by the majority in a vent conversation among the guild reps two nights ago, that is being revisited tonight before the hammer comes down. So if you are going to make these kind of statements at least know what you are talking about.

Sorry I stopped really reading your post after that shit stain of a reply that I quoted above. Your still welcome to a ham biscuit if you want.


They are promoting the "extortion", genius.

I still love you Tecmos you have always been a good guy.

[Tecmos Deception]

Wanting more concessions than were proposed doesn't mean anyone is shitting on this proposal. It's not like hardcore raiders are giving up that much on an absolute scale, seeing as they already have killed all this shit 300 times and have alts decked in raid loot and still have a relative monopoly on VP.

[Tecmos Deception]

I still love you Tecmos you have always been a good guy.

Haha. I just can't stay out of the shit sometimes. I don't even care, personally, because I don't intend for Tecmos to do real raiding ever :)

[Hitpoint]

Wanting more concessions than were proposed doesn't mean anyone is shitting on this proposal. It's not like hardcore raiders are giving up that much on an absolute scale, seeing as they already have killed all this shit 300 times and have alts decked in raid loot and still have a relative monopoly on VP.

You're talking about TMO with this paragraph. FE/IB doesn't even have decked mains. MOST of these mobs we haven't even killed in the double digits, despite killing ourselves for months trying to. We have no monopoly on VP once this suspension ends. You can't make blanket statements like this.

And out of every guild on this server we're losing the most with this deal. Your right, TMO doesn't need anything anymore and they've farmed it all for years. The position of every other guild on the server only improves with this proposal. Essentially, we are stuck competing with TMO just as hard as we always have, except with half the opportunities to do so.

[-Catherin-]

you don't like the concessions guilds are willing to make.

Just me again? the majority of the guilds dont like it. not just ME


You want an across the board sweep that makes everyone equal no matter the difference in effort they have or are willing to put into the game.

Wrong. a compromise was offered that is a great mix of something for the casuals and the same competition we have had with no changes for the other half of the time. Once again showing you are making statements without actually knowing anything.

You said it no one else did.

Once again I thought you said you were keeping up with the posts. Or do you have a selective reading disorder?

You threatened Extortion because someone else didn't support your stance.

once again you give me too much credit if you think I could single handedly "extort" the server to do what I want. Extortion, Dictation, Socialism, whatever you ragers want to try to label it, is absolute nonsense. People have the right to hold out if the terms presented to them by the minority are seen as completely unacceptable, so that we can all work together and work something out that is actually going to work for the present and the future going into Velious. This is what Rogean has tasked people with. And im not alone in this.

I had to eat crow last night because of something I said and guess what you do too.

You are sorely mistaken if you think I regret the statement I made :) I want something that is better for all of us. not just you and not just me. And considering the particular few people that statement has drawn the most ire from, im feeling pretty morally safe

You have thus far offered nothing of value to this conversation other than trying to slander and discredit others

in before NUH UH!!!!

[DrKvothe]

I"ll be honest. It looks like Taken and BDA and whoever else are simply trying to squeeze more out of this situation because the GMs gave you the power to do so. Your right, raid suspension hurts the big guilds more. And yes, GMs want a unanimous agreement from all guilds.

Let's imagine that we weren't threatened with a raid suspension and this current proposal was posted. People would go fucking INSANE for it. Big guilds said they are willing to give up tons of targets every month, including 1/4th of the ones they want the most. Guilds that were previously getting nothing, can get multiple targets weekly. They can set up a rotation between themselves if they don't want to do any work. That's left up to them. And still allowed to compete with the top guilds if they choose to. Nothing even close to this has ever been on the table. It would be accepted without a second thought, there would be no holding out for MORE. Want some inside info? This agreement was drafted and posted on our boards for review a day before Sirken's threat. Our officers didn't come up with this because they had the threat of a suspension looming. They actually wanted to make the raid scene better. And you all shit on it like this, just because you can.

I've got an idea. TMO perma-banned from all non-VP content. If they want an epic for a 4th alt, they can buy it from A-Team.

[Tuljin]

FORUMQUEST

[Seltius]

Wanting more concessions than were proposed doesn't mean anyone is shitting on this proposal. It's not like hardcore raiders are giving up that much on an absolute scale, seeing as they already have killed all this shit 300 times and have alts decked in raid loot and still have a relative monopoly on VP.

I don't know where you get all your information about alts. I would love to get some gear on my alts that I will never see unless I retire my main or put them in another raiding guild.

In the end if the raid scene were a pie then no one is happy with the slice they have been getting. Threads like this are offering a larger slice but unless the pie is cut in half or the guilds that feel they were being mistreated are getting the larger or largest slice they will refuse to allow the pie to be cut at all. I figure everyone loves pie so it was a safe analogy. I once ate at a place called Perfect Pies and they had an amazing assortment of pies it was great a pie for everyone.

[Toodles]

In order to promote an environment that fosters a more friendly atmosphere between the “Casuals” and the “Hardcore” several raiding guilds have come together to draft this agreement for the server. The high-end raiding guilds have made several concessions in favor of the smaller guilds to get more targets. This proposal comes as a function of the input of many members of the server through posts, tells, and vent conversations from members and leadership across the server.

No poop socking agreement:
No guild will have more than 2 members present at any given time during period of time where either Venril Sathir or Trakanon are in window. Specifically those tracking for VS will not be in the room. This will apply to all mobs.

Naturally, there are times that will exist where it is necessary to have more than 2 trackers in the zone for an encounter. There are, however, instances where more than 2 characters from any guilds will need to be in zone. If a guild is CoTHing members down or buffing they may do so, and they may med to full. Upon reaching full mana or completing a CoTH the surplus members must log off and not maintain a presence.

There will no longer be grouping in the VS pit to circumvent the 2-player no-sock rule. This is easy to justify as it’s a terrible spot for exp and has relatively no value for any player to be here if they aren’t looking to manipulate this rule.

In addition, guilds are able to engage Prot and Tola within a reasonable amount of time and may not malinger in the zone after the mobs have been killed.

With the agreement to remove socking as a tactic, we request that GMs significantly reduce variance, as it only serves as a detriment to everyone at this point.

DA Stalling Tactics:
Any stalling tactic such as Divine Barrier or Aura, Harmshield, monk whirlwind or avoidance discs or DA Idol is considered 1 unit of stall. No guild shall employ more than 2 units of stalling during any raid target encounter (36 seconds). If said guild employs a stall tactic and fails to engage the encounter after that time period has concluded, they will forfeit any attempt to engage that target during this spawn period and retreat from the encounter.

CATEGORY A & B
Any guilds considered to be a raid guild will be categorized either A or B.

The Mystical Order, Forceful Entry, and Inglorious Basterds will start in category A. All other guilds will start as Category B.

If a category B guild kills 40% or more of targets in any given month during our “hands off” period (explained below), they will be promoted to Category A and be subject to the respective restrictions.

Any guild that is promoted to Category A will remain in this category for 30 days and will remain in this category until their kill percentage falls to 20% or below.

VP Dragons are excluded from percentage calculations.

Any guild that is VP capable (Kills a dragon in VP) will be considered Category A for 90 days.

HANDS OFF PERIOD
As of January 1, 2014, Category A guilds will be considered “Hands Off” for any Priority raid targets during the first 7 days of each calendar month. During that time period, Category A guilds will avoid any of their priority targets and open them to the rest of the server. This will however exclude raid targets in Veeshan’s Peak.

During the “Hands Off" Period, Category A Guilds may take this opportunity to go after Category A de-prioritized targets that they will be avoiding the other 3 weeks a month.

It is important to note that FE, IB and TMO will not necessarily be actively tracking these deprioritized mobs during this time, as we have agreed only to track and engage them during this time if there is a need for a specific item (e.g. we have a warrior holding a green scale that needs a maestro hand).

Repop Days
During a repop, the Category A and B restrictions will not apply, however TMO, FE, and IB have agreed that they will not pursue non-priority targets during a repop.

CAT A De-Prioritized Raid Targets:
Gorenoire, Talendor, Maestro of Rancor & Dracolich (solo spawn)

CAT A Priority Raid Targets:
Cazic Thule (Draco), Venril Sathir, Trakanon, Faydedar, Innourouk, Severillous

Nagy/Vox
As it concerns Nagafen & Vox; CAT A Guilds will alternate killing only one per week and the following week killing the other always leaving one available to the remainder of the server.

Plane of Sky/Noble Dojorn

The Plane of Sky rotation will be respected by all guilds participating, however guilds are free to renegotiate their days with whomever they please.

Guilds agree to leave Overseer of Air up (providing the mechanics on blue still allow for this) to spawn multiple Nobles per day/week/month. If a Noble spawns during a guilds scheduled time, it will be assumed that the guild currently engaging sky will have a first right to engage that noble or they may defer that target to another guild if they choose to do so.

Guild Council
In addition to the aforementioned agreement, I have spoken with Sirken and Derubael about creating a guild council consisting of the following guilds; Divinity, Taken, The Mystical Order, Forceful Entry, Inglourious Basterds, and Bregan d`Aerth. Each guild will have two members that will sit on the council and each guild will have a single vote. Voting for amendments will require a majority (4/6 votes). The council will also be responsible for sanctioning guilds that violate the terms of the agreement. Sanctions will require a super majority to affect (5/6 votes).

GMs Sirken and Derubael will oversee the committee if need be and their decisions will supersede those of the council. The CSR staff will defer to the judgement of the council however and will only intervene in extenuating circumstances. Guilds will also have the right to appeal decisions with CSR staff. The CSR staff has given the council the power to self-govern and use this committee to self-police. They also encourage guilds to work out disputes amongst themselves before bringing issues before CSR staff.

Will guild leaders please PM me with the members of their respective guilds that they would like to add to this council. Ideally, the members you choose will have the authority to make decisions on behalf of your guild or act in the stead of a Guild Leader in the event of the leader’s absence.

Please reference the above document for your consideration. The guilds that have drafted this agreement believe this is a monumental change for the server in a favorable direction for all parties involved. The leadership of each guild is asked to reply, “Signed” in support of the above.


Watch me counter that in one word, in one fell swoop..ready for it..you sitting down for this...


VARIANCE



Psst, it's the thing you remove...

[Seltius]

Catherin

you made that post you can cut and paste 1 line of every post I've made if you would like but I quoted your post not someone else's you were the first one I came to that really came out and said that YOU were willing to hold out and extort until things were settled this was your words not someone else's. I know others posted the same thing but who knows. They may have only said it because you said it first or gave them the idea. You posted like you had control and I just commented on it. You can say what you want to try and excuse it or justify it but in the end those were your words. Maybe I just like the others that have said it and decided not to point out that its a stupid idea to say something like that.

Oh and trust me unlike you I accept the criticism for my posts instead of setting out to prove that I didn't say it or that it wasn't my decision to say it but I said it anyway.

Now cut copy and paste what you would like of my comments above. Somehow im sure you can come up with something to deflect again the fact that you suggested or threatened extortion however you would like to put it.


I have included a wiki link just for you.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extortion

TL;DR let me know and I can copy and paste one liners in a pm like you seem to enjoy.

PS= beyond the jokes I have heard about you my only interaction with you ever has been attempting to buy stuff from you in EC. I don't know your role in the negotiations or even your status in Taken so if you have no authority then your like me and its probably a good thing.

Feel free to copy and paste anything I said in this thread for your benefit ill watch and feel all warm and fuzzy but will not be replying again it really just isn't worth it to try and forumquest I cant tell where I am in the game. I seem to lack some understanding to know if I'm winning or losing and without the desire to care it seems lackluster at best.

[-Catherin-]

I could post a wiki link to dictatorship or that same exact link to extortion and put my own spin on it to compare it to what everyone else has been dealing with for a couple years now too. but that wouldn't make it true. So just stop :p

Also im willing to accept criticism. But yeah I do not like being called a liar. There is a difference.

As to my "power" I don't have any which I have already said a few times. This isn't about just you or me regardless and anyone that thinks they have more power than someone else is doing it wrong.

And really, the two of us going back and forth isn't doing anything good for anyone. And its not fun. I'm really not out to get you or anyone else whatever notion you have in your mind about me. I'd rather find a common ground where we can all get along, and I don't hold personal ill will against any of you

I truly want this all to stop and to see an agreement happen that everyone can accept. this whole thing makes me sad. You can have your last word if you still feel its necessary. Im not going to feed into it anymore :(

[Happyfeet]

We'll even let you have the first week of the EC tunnel Catherin

[-Catherin-]

We'll even let you have the first week of the EC tunnel Catherin

TY :p

[whitebandit]

http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=81892

Why is anything outside of VP in Priority class again?

tis a pretty damn good point...

[Seltius]

I really hope this works out. My whole issue isn't the raiding its what I do but it isn't why I play. I just want things done and in a way that I can still play the game and have fun for the reasons I play it now. Its already hit home and bothers me some of what has happened. Its our sandbox but atm I almost feel like id like to just kick sand in a few people's eyes call it a day and go home.

Even if the raid rules are agreed upon and change for the benefit of all the damage is done. Nothing will change that at this point and I'm not referring to the bans or suspensions or anything like that I am referring to the repercussions and indirect damage that was done. If I never get to raid until Velious it wont bother me personally but the ripple effect it will have will be want ruins this game for me.

I have seen the best and worst of people on these forums in recent months. Far worse in some cases than anything else id ever encountered in 13yrs of online gaming. And that says a lot after playing EvE Online.

Sorry to everyone I have given a hard time or criticized here but most of you don't know as much as you think you do about people. Hell I know less than I think I know about most people and always wish I knew more.

Please try and work together to find an amiable solution for everyone.

[Erati]

I"ll be honest. It looks like Taken and BDA and whoever else are simply trying to squeeze more out of this situation because the GMs gave you the power to do so. Your right, raid suspension hurts the big guilds more. And yes, GMs want a unanimous agreement from all guilds.

Let's imagine that we weren't threatened with a raid suspension and this current proposal was posted. People would go fucking INSANE for it. Big guilds said they are willing to give up tons of targets every month, including 1/4th of the ones they want the most. Guilds that were previously getting nothing, can get multiple targets weekly. They can set up a rotation between themselves if they don't want to do any work. That's left up to them. And still allowed to compete with the top guilds if they choose to. Nothing even close to this has ever been on the table. It would be accepted without a second thought, there would be no holding out for MORE. Want some inside info? This agreement was drafted and posted on our boards for review a day before Sirken's threat. Our officers didn't come up with this because they had the threat of a suspension looming. They actually wanted to make the raid scene better. And you all shit on it like this, just because you can. Imo threatening the server was a mistake, and now this is all so messy and hateful when it doesn't need to be.

ur proposal woulda been a nice gesture if it didnt seem like a simple bone thrown at hungry dogs

we are trying to do something that the majority would like to see

the FE plan still requires u to shit up the raid scene and literally changes nothing besides a few more mobs for the bigger casual guilds

its not about giving BDA a couple Traks or Taken a Sev or two

its about making a change ... not throwing some mobs at us and saying " THERE! NOW YOU HAPPY?!?!!"

[Hitpoint]

ur proposal woulda been a nice gesture if it didnt seem like a simple bone thrown at hungry dogs

we are trying to do something that the majority would like to see

the FE plan still requires u to shit up the raid scene and literally changes nothing besides a few more mobs for the bigger casual guilds

its not about giving BDA a couple Traks or Taken a Sev or two

its about making a change ... not throwing some mobs at us and saying " THERE! NOW YOU HAPPY?!?!!"

So you'd have been happy if you didn't misinterpret this as charity?

[Lammy]

I've got an idea. TMO perma-banned from all non-VP content. If they want an epic for a 4th alt, they can buy it from A-Team.

Winga, when you first started in these negotiation threads I thought perhaps you were a rational, free thinker. Now i'm just convinced that you're either A. a misinformed lemming or B. a retard.

TMO has plenty of raiding mains that still need their epics, as well as gear from open world raid mobs. That is first hand FACT, not assumption or hearsay.

[DrKvothe]

BDA is looking to benefit the least from the 'casual' proposal out of all the guilds that gain anything at all. It's only TMO that loses anything, and the amount they get to keep is far too generous. The guilds that gain the most are the Sky guilds that get zero or near zero monthly dragon kills.

[DrKvothe]

Winga, when you first started in these negotiation threads I thought perhaps you were a rational, free thinker. Now i'm just convinced that you're either A. a misinformed lemming or B. a retard.

TMO has plenty of raiding mains that still need their epics, as well as gear from open world raid mobs. That is first hand FACT, not assumption or hearsay.

Plenty? What's the waiting list like? Why are you selling epics and epic pieces for most classes? How can you have a similar number of players as each of FE, Taken, BDA, etc., have gotten near exclusive rights to epic drops for 2 years, and still act like you desperately need raid loot? If you've got 2 mains per class that need epic drops and other guilds have 10 mains per class that need epic drops, even if your guild is getting drops at the same rate as the other guild, an individual in your guild is getting it 5x faster.

[Erati]

So you'd have been happy if you didn't misinterpret this as charity?

/facepalm

[Splorf22]

Winga, when you first started in these negotiation threads I thought perhaps you were a rational, free thinker. Now i'm just convinced that you're either A. a misinformed lemming or B. a retard.

TMO has plenty of raiding mains that still need their epics, as well as gear from open world raid mobs. That is first hand FACT, not assumption or hearsay.

I would be shocked if even 10% of TMO raiding mains still need their epics. For kicks, I went to the TMO page and sorted by name.

Aalamar: yes
Aalpha: yes
Alarti: yes
Alde: no idea
Ascention: yes
Atmas: yes
Baxter: yes
Benjaman: recruit with 9 dkp
Bialar: yes
Biggslick: yes
Bitie: rogue so he fucking better have one
Butchh: yes
Carrina: recruit
Catterine: only 95% sure but putting her down as yes
Cecily: yes
Chief: yes
Citizen: shaman, so . . yeah
Cyryllis: yes
Darkdeath: yes
Deathproof: yes

And after 20 names I got tired. 17/20 confirmed to have epics, and two of those remaining are recruits. And probably Alde (the 5%!) has one or at least some VP weapons. So I'm thinking that isn't so great for your argument there Fabben . . . and then I realized . . . I bet *you* don't have your epic! Cause Taken has been socking Inny hard lately and the earth staff is pretty rare. And now its obvious why you are taking the positions you do.

P.S. That being said, Winga's position is silly because it would never allow TMO to recruit anyone new.

[JayN]

TMO members with RA% of 20-30% really dont get much loot, tons of semi casuals. All of them are being told "YOU DONT NEED LOOT ANYMORE CAUSE WE SAY SO." all this ghestop shit is so stupid, just hope you never make it to the top!

[Hitpoint]

/facepalm

I'm sorry, the proposal is more than generous. I'm not going to restate things from my previous posts but this IS the compromise. On one extreme you have the top guilds dominating, on the other you have full rotation. We've done what was asked. This is as middle ground as it gets.

[Bossman]

I'm sorry, the proposal is more than generous. I'm not going to restate things from my previous posts but this IS the compromise. On one extreme you have the top guilds dominating, on the other you have full rotation. We've done what was asked. This is as middle ground as it gets.

This "proposal" is a joke. You will not get a consensus on it, period. Move on or enjoy not raiding.

[Aaron]

Loraen: 1
Fabben: 0

[Splorf22]

I'm sorry, the proposal is more than generous. I'm not going to restate things from my previous posts but this IS the compromise. On one extreme you have the top guilds dominating, on the other you have full rotation. We've done what was asked. This is as middle ground as it gets.

If one extreme is a full rotation, and the other extreme is the top guilds dominating, then wouldn't the middle ground be . . . half rotation and half FFA? And is this not exactly what Divinity proposed?

[Hitpoint]

This "proposal" is a joke. You will not get a consensus on it, period. Move on or enjoy not raiding.

I've enjoyed raiding for some time now.

There are other proposals I like more.

When I was in Acyrid I remember thinking I would be happy if TMO gave us the chance to kill one mob a month, just to see the shit and experience classic EQ. I accepted that i'd never be raid geared or get my epic. I think I've raided enough now to be satisfied, at least seeing the content. If it's between not raiding and full rotation with people as bitter and lazy as you. I'm fine with taking a break for a while. Not that all people in other guilds are bitter and lazy, but I'm assuming you are.

[Hitpoint]

If one extreme is a full rotation, and the other extreme is the top guilds dominating, then wouldn't the middle ground be . . . half rotation and half FFA? And is this not exactly what Divinity proposed?

No it wouldn't because we'd be on the full rotation. Half and half is not middle ground.

[Bossman]

There are other proposals I like more.

When I was in Acyrid I remember thinking I would be happy if TMO gave us the chance to kill one mob a month, just to see the shit and experience classic EQ. I think I've raided enough now to be satisfied, at least seeing the content. If it's between not raiding and full rotation with people as bitter and lazy as you. I'm fine with taking a break for a while.

Sweet dude see you in Velious. One close-minded Zerg down, 200 to go.

[Bossman]

No it wouldn't because we'd be on the full rotation. Half and half is not middle ground.

This might be the dumbest post I have ever seen. Kudos!

[Hitpoint]

Sweet dude see you in Velious. One close-minded Zerg down, 200 to go.

Lol, and all these agreements are going to be mute come Velious. Guess I'll definitly see you then. Crying on the boards for another rotation.

[Splorf22]

No it wouldn't because we'd be on the full rotation. Half and half is not middle ground.

Half and half is not middle ground? Are you kidding me? And you are on the rotation section of Divinity's proposal. It gives TMO+FE+IB as group 2/3 of the mobs every month weekly . . which is more than half.

I am honestly not sure how to talk to you.

[Kope]

No it wouldn't because we'd be on the full rotation. Half and half is not middle ground.

How would less than half of the days of the month on rotation, and the rest (> 50%) be pure competition not be the middle ground? What logic is your "full rotation" coming from? I don't understand that at all.

[Hitpoint]

Half and half is not middle ground? Are you kidding me? And you are on the rotation section of Divinity's proposal. It gives TMO+FE+IB as group 2/3 of the mobs every month weekly . . which is more than half.

I am honestly not sure how to talk to you.

To be fair, I'm going to explain my mindset a little bit more.

You are assuming that BDA and Taken will never get a mob on the other two weeks of the month. They already do now. They lock down Vox and Inny. BDA beat us to Talendor just yesterday. And we were more than happy about it. Because that's what we've wanted to see. Another guild at least trying. They could have had Sev easily if their FTEer had hit him first, pure coinflip. BDA got FTE on Druushk and got him to 50%, with one more bard he'd have probably been dead. Taken got last VS. These guilds are more than capable of competing, they have been for a long while. And now they are starting to actually try. These past two weeks have guilds trying things they didn't in the past, and they're going to keep trying and getting better. While TMO has only gotten weaker. This server could get very interesting very soon.

You know what you're overlooking about all these different agreements? We (tmo and fe/IB) are not allowed to compete with other guilds on their time, while they are absolutely allowed to compete with us. We could break up with IB, or BDA could step up onto our tier, or TMO could fucking shut us down and we don't get anything. It's not just 2 or 3 guilds sharing for those two weeks, more competition can appear for us. In short, we aren't guaranteed any number of mobs like you seem to think. And frankly I'm fine with that as long as we have a chance to get a decent number, and two weeks is not enough. That's why I don't like Divinity's proposal. Because it kills competition instead of foster it.

[Bossman]

Just for the sake of argument..

You're just assuming that BDA and Taken will never get a mob on the other two weeks of the month? They already do now. They beat us to Talendor just yesterday. And we were more than happy about it. Because that's what we've wanted to see. Another guild at least trying. They could have had Sev easily if their FTEer had hit him first, pure coinflip. Taken has gotten the last 4 or 5 Innys, they got last VS. These guilds are more than capable of competing. And now they are starting to actually try. You know what you're overlooking about all these different agreements? We're not allowed to compete with other guilds on their time, while they are absolutely allowed to compete with us. We could break up with IB, or BDA could step up onto our tier, or TMO could fucking shut us down and we don't get anything.In short, we aren't guaranteed any number of mobs. And frankly I'm fine with that as long as we have a chance to get a decent number. That's why I don't like Divinity's proposal. Because it kills competition instead of foster it.

Your "competition" is stupid. The majority of the server feel this way. If you like "competing" this much, go to red and try to unseat the top guild there. TMO started it and you fools perpetuated it. Not our fault.

[DrKvothe]

It sounds like you don't like it because the competition is twice as risky, and you're scared to lose out.

[Splorf22]

Hitpoint, 'competition' on this server involves tracking, batphoning, poopsocking, and camping out alts. It is fucking retarded and needs to die a slow painful death. P1999 is competition in the same way dragging your ballsack across a field of broken glass is competition. You want to encourage it because it makes you feel slightly less dumb if other people are engaged in the same idiocy.

Also, in Divinity's proposal FE/IB and TMO would get slots in the rotation like everyone else. You are guaranteed the same number of mobs as everyone else, and then its up to you to 'compete' as you love to do. All I can do is restate at this point what I said before: Divinity's plan gives up 60% of mobs to the 'competition' you guys love. It is MORE than a middle ground between the casual and the hardcore.

[Lazie]

To be fair, I'm going to explain my mindset a little bit more.

You are assuming that BDA and Taken will never get a mob on the other two weeks of the month. They already do now. They lock down Vox and Inny. BDA beat us to Talendor just yesterday. And we were more than happy about it. Because that's what we've wanted to see. Another guild at least trying. They could have had Sev easily if their FTEer had hit him first, pure coinflip. BDA got FTE on Druushk and got him to 50%, with one more bard he'd have probably been dead. Taken got last VS. These guilds are more than capable of competing, they have been for a long while. And now they are starting to actually try.

You know what you're overlooking about all these different agreements? We're not allowed to compete with other guilds on their time, while they are absolutely allowed to compete with us. We could break up with IB, or BDA could step up onto our tier, or TMO could fucking shut us down and we don't get anything. It's not just 2 or 3 guilds sharing for those two weeks, more competition can appear for us. In short, we aren't guaranteed any number of mobs. And frankly I'm fine with that as long as we have a chance to get a decent number, and two weeks is not enough. That's why I don't like Divinity's proposal. Because it kills competition instead of foster it.

Yeah one thing I will say.. BDA has had no problem competing for mobs like TMO/FEIB this last week. In head to head situations they got Talendor and narrowly missed Sev by having the mob tracked and people there or ready to get there. I only point this out because a few from the guild have been posting that they have been limited by that type of competition.. Except when they are now trying they seem to be doing OK in the current system. I was happy to see BDA get their kills and still am.. But it kind of eliminates the argument that the system limits all but the Top 2 guilds. When guilds try they get mobs.

[tortue ninja]

i dont understand why we are listening to Loraen point of view here, his guild represent an average of 8 players online, the a-team never did something on the raid scene, who care bout what A-team want? seriously...

[JayN]

Your "competition" is stupid. The majority of the server feel this way. If you like "competing" this much, go to red and try to unseat the top guild there. TMO started it and you fools perpetuated it. Not our fault.

Casuals dictating to 3/4ths of the active raiding population; ya fuck the work theyve put in over the years its time for them to go, hell anywhere but here!

How about you start a new server as blue instead of another DEAD PVP server then you can have a competition blue server and a rotating blue server since obviously this is where most of the player base is?

[Hitpoint]

Hitpoint, 'competition' on this server involves tracking, batphoning, poopsocking, and camping out alts. It is fucking retarded and needs to die a slow painful death. P1999 is competition in the same way dragging your ballsack across a field of broken glass is competition. You want to encourage it because it makes you feel slightly less dumb if other people are engaged in the same idiocy.


I'm sorry you feel that way. But that's like, you're opinion, man.

http://blog.estately.com/assets/TheDude.jpg

By the way it isn't really that bad. You don't need to answer a batphone if you don't want to, ever. It's more for convenience than anything. If enough people do a few hours of tracking a week it's basically nothing you aren't doing already when you camp AC or some shit. Only a few targets actually get parked at, most can be potioned or ported to very quickly to mobilize for. Parking alts takes zero effort, and we have tons of people with 1 char who do just fine. VS is the only thing that gets poopsocked and I don't partake. Our officers constantly tell people not to sock VS pit, people choose to do that shit. Lots of them are even just afk and want to be able to answer a batphone quicker.

Basically you, and everyone else, blow this shit WAY WAY out of proportion when you talk about it, constantly, always, in every.. single... post.

[Ciroco]

When guilds try they get mobs.

Of course they do. It's not that the "casuals" can't compete; it's that they don't want to. Neither them nor the devs enjoy what the top guilds have turned the raid scene into, and I'm honestly shocked at how many of you choose to play the game like this.

[Hitpoint]

Of course they do. It's not that the "casuals" can't compete; it's that they don't want to. Neither them nor the devs enjoy what the top guilds have turned the raid scene into, and I'm honestly shocked at how many of you choose to play the game like this.

I bet they enjoyed that Talendor kill a hell of a lot more than if they logged in at 6:00 pm, strolled into SF, got full buffs, perfect groups set up, prepped and planned the pull, and burned down a 32k mob in 20 seconds with zerg numbers. We were there watching and I have it on fraps. They were rushed, under pressure, shit happened that probably was not planned, and they got the kill anyway. It was epic, and I bet it felt that way.

[falkun]

Half and half is not middle ground.
One of the dumbest things I've ever read, and I kept Alarti off ignore for 2 years.

[Tyym]

We are getting requests from guilds I have never heard of to attend the discussion tonight. May I suggest the smaller guilds voice their concerns to some of the higher up Cat B guilds like BDA, Divinity and Taken. Tonight's forum will be restricting representatives to 2 players from each guild. With that in mind, we will still be having 10 -12 people on our vent likely all talking at once. We know the concerns and we are doing our best to come to some sort of amiable solution that benefits everyone. However if you haven't killed a Dragon or God in the past 6 months, then please let your proxy be conveyed by one of the aforementioned guilds.

Morphius
Forceful Entry

[JayN]

<ninja turtles> will be there, we expect our unfairshare as well....

[Lazie]

I bet they enjoyed that Talendor kill a hell of a lot more than if they logged in at 6:00 pm, strolled into SF, got full buffs, perfect groups set up, prepped and planned the pull, and burned down a 32k mob in 20 seconds with zerg numbers. We were there watching and I have it on fraps. They were rushed, under pressure, shit happened that probably was not planned, and they got the kill anyway. It was epic, and I bet it felt that way.

I know that Sev kill was hectic and funner for me than anything we have killed this week. Had to pull it instantly and hope the people were there when it arrived and they barely were. Heck a lot of folks weren't buffed and getting dragon feared because the competition didn't give time for it. Was just fun. Now not saying the system is perfect but there are moments like that Sev Kill for FE and Tal Kill for BDA I guarantee those guilds felt they accomplished something more.

[Troubled]

I bet they enjoyed that Talendor kill a hell of a lot more than if they logged in at 6:00 pm, strolled into SF, got full buffs, perfect groups set up, prepped and planned the pull, and burned down a 32k mob in 20 seconds with zerg numbers. We were there watching and I have it on fraps. They were rushed, under pressure, shit happened that probably was not planned, and they got the kill anyway. It was epic, and I bet it felt that way.

Aside from the satisfaction of downing Trak and CT for the first time in quite a while, Talendor was my favorite kill of the week and I appreciated the support from FE and IB after the fight, and lolled at the massive SF train that rubberbanded on us. The mission here is not to only cater to people who choose to play like that, however.

[Fuddwin]

When guilds try they get mobs.

[Magicant]

The only real solution to the raid scene is to limit the number of players that can engage a raid boss. 25 people.

or

Instances.

[Fuddwin]

Aside from the satisfaction of downing Trak and CT for the first time in quite a while, Talendor was my favorite kill of the week and I appreciated the support from FE and IB after the fight, and lolled at the massive SF train that rubberbanded on us. The mission here is not to only cater to people who choose to play like that, however.

OMGZ!! BDA got Trak/CT/Tal!!! Too many targets... Seriously though... Gratz...

[Lammy]

Sometimes i think you get carried away for the sake of arguing. Did you not read the portion of my post where it clearly states that I know first hand some people need epics? That would be referencing myself. I do not have an epic on my mage, and haven't found it necessary to gripe about it either in guild, in game, or publicly. Hats off to 'Taken' for their dedication on monopolizing inny.

I could name many mains still needing epics in our guild and my argument is more so in their defense than for me selfishly. I've come to terms with my mage epic happening with velious revamps, just like everyone else not willing to put forth the effort should be.

How about them apples Loraen? My TMO tagged main (and other mains) doesn't have an epic because its cockblocked by another guilds efforts and I'm still willing to advocate that it should be effort=reward.

Just for the record to discredit your statistics... alde does not wield his epic.

I love how the argument of 4th alt needing epics instantly transforms into now "well the majority of your mains have it." So the argument is still valid. Heh. Does tmo sell raid drops? Sure they do, because excess items are a result of farming to get the drops we do need. Unfotunately we don't get to pick what the dragon drops each time.


I would be shocked if even 10% of TMO raiding mains still need their epics. For kicks, I went to the TMO page and sorted by name.

Aalamar: yes
Aalpha: yes
Alarti: yes
Alde: no idea
Ascention: yes
Atmas: yes
Baxter: yes
Benjaman: recruit with 9 dkp
Bialar: yes
Biggslick: yes
Bitie: rogue so he fucking better have one
Butchh: yes
Carrina: recruit
Catterine: only 95% sure but putting her down as yes
Cecily: yes
Chief: yes
Citizen: shaman, so . . yeah
Cyryllis: yes
Darkdeath: yes
Deathproof: yes

And after 20 names I got tired. 17/20 confirmed to have epics, and two of those remaining are recruits. And probably Alde (the 5%!) has one or at least some VP weapons. So I'm thinking that isn't so great for your argument there Fabben . . . and then I realized . . . I bet *you* don't have your epic! Cause Taken has been socking Inny hard lately and the earth staff is pretty rare. And now its obvious why you are taking the positions you do.

P.S. That being said, Winga's position is silly because it would never allow TMO to recruit anyone new.

[BillyCranston]

If they became a significant raid presence, they would gain representation.

Nice of you to decide what is significant enough. All of these proposals are jokes. Yes people aren't just throwing casual raids together, but if a few guilds wanted to get together without sitting around to write the Magna Carta for an alliance, and then submit the proper C-109 form to you or whoever else thinks they have the right to say someone else's force is a "raid presence" or not, and raid somewhere, who are you to tell them they need to sit around and fill out forms and plead their case?

[Razdeline]

Nice of you to decide what is significant enough. All of these proposals are jokes. Yes people aren't just throwing casual raids together, but if a few guilds wanted to get together without sitting around to write the Magna Carta for an alliance, and then submit the proper C-109 form to you or whoever else thinks they have the right to say someone else's force is a "raid presence" or not, and raid somewhere, who are you to tell them they need to sit around and fill out forms and plead their case?

Raid forces that are viable, keyed, and put in more hours are deemed a top tier raid force. This has been something that is known for years. Put in the work, the trackers, etc. and you would be 'deemed' on the same level.

Unfortunately everyone can not do this. It is hard to reach ultimate commitment, but honestly, if every guild on the server had every mob split evenly you may as well form one guild, name it the zerg, and everyone will get a needed mob once or so a month.

To me(and I think the majority), people would want to have competition, but be on a more balanced playing field. The goal from Rogean here was to eliminate mob monopolies. TMO grew to a cancerous state on the server, rule lawyering and training people in acceptable zones, leapfrogging, alt armies, etc. An up and comming guild would have no chance of reasonable and fun competition against them.

The idea is, I should be able to put in the same amount of work in guild 'a' that guild 'b' does to achieve the same accomplishments. I just hope these folks from lower teir guilds realize this, you need to actually show up and put in the time for you're gear. In the current raid situation, it really just goes down to being the first person tracking to notify and mobilize a raid force to win. Everything in this game is trivial at best. (Velious will be different)

[YendorLootmonkey]

You are assuming that BDA and Taken will never get a mob on the other two weeks of the month. They already do now. They lock down Vox and Inny. BDA beat us to Talendor just yesterday. And we were more than happy about it. Because that's what we've wanted to see. Another guild at least trying. They could have had Sev easily if their FTEer had hit him first, pure coinflip. BDA got FTE on Druushk and got him to 50%, with one more bard he'd have probably been dead. Taken got last VS.

You would have valid points if TMO were not to return to raiding going forward. You know as well as the rest of us that many of the instances you're talking about happened because TMO is currently on a raid suspension, especially the Druushk attempt, which means those other guilds only had to compete against FE/IB. And in some cases not even then, because of the "if you killed it last, you have to wait two hours to engage" rule we're using during these two weeks. So statements like yours above are a little disingenuous.

You know what you're overlooking about all these different agreements? We (tmo and fe/IB) are not allowed to compete with other guilds on their time, while they are absolutely allowed to compete with us. We could break up with IB, or BDA could step up onto our tier, or TMO could fucking shut us down and we don't get anything. It's not just 2 or 3 guilds sharing for those two weeks, more competition can appear for us. In short, we aren't guaranteed any number of mobs like you seem to think. And frankly I'm fine with that as long as we have a chance to get a decent number, and two weeks is not enough. That's why I don't like Divinity's proposal. Because it kills competition instead of foster it.

You turn 180 degrees in this paragraph. At first, you're worried about extra competition during the last half of the month under Divinity's proposal. By the end of the paragraph, you're saying it kills competition.

Do you honestly think that if BDA or Taken or Divinity is getting the mobs they would like to gear up from in the first half of the month under Divinity's proposal that they are going to suddenly expend more effort than they did prior to TMO's current raid suspension to compete at TMO and FE/IB's level for most of those mobs during the last half of the month? If anything, it is relieving pressure off TMO/FE/IB during the FFA part of the month. Or did you want more competition during that part of the month? I can't tell anymore.

Yeah, non-TMO/FE/IB guilds get mobs when they "try". During the last two weeks "try" has meant a lot less effort than "trying" while TMO was involved and there was no "can't engage for two hours if you killed it last" gentleman's agreement.

I"ll be honest. It looks like Taken and BDA and whoever else are simply trying to squeeze more out of this situation because the GMs gave you the power to do so. Your right, raid suspension hurts the big guilds more. And yes, GMs want a unanimous agreement from all guilds.

Let's imagine that we weren't threatened with a raid suspension and this current proposal was posted. People would go fucking INSANE for it. Big guilds said they are willing to give up tons of targets every month, including 1/4th of the ones they want the most. Guilds that were previously getting nothing, can get multiple targets weekly. They can set up a rotation between themselves if they don't want to do any work. That's left up to them. And still allowed to compete with the top guilds if they choose to. Nothing even close to this has ever been on the table. It would be accepted without a second thought, there would be no holding out for MORE. Want some inside info? This agreement was drafted and posted on our boards for review a day before Sirken's threat. Our officers didn't come up with this because they had the threat of a suspension looming. They actually wanted to make the raid scene better. And you all shit on it like this, just because you can. Imo threatening the server was a mistake, and now this is all so messy and hateful when it doesn't need to be.

I will grant you that FE/IB is kind of caught in this crossfire and is getting the raw end of the deal for choosing to expend the amount of effort/time it took to "compete" against TMO. But the truth is that nothing was stopping TMO from putting together something like this within the last two years. Sure, they launched an "endangered species" campaign as a bone to throw out to everyone else now and then, but nothing that would be considered along the lines as "game changing for the entire server." So yes, it DID take what Rogean did to get this process started, and to ensure it didn't just involve "extreme hardcore raid guilds just throwing out a few more bones."

[Hitpoint]

Yendor I think that this is the beginning of those guilds actually competing with TMO more. Yes tmo is suspended now, but they will only be weaker when they get off suspension. They definitely haven't gained in strength. And if guilds are willing to compete with us then they should be confident competing with new tmo as well.

Now I don't have much to compare with, because of the two hour hands off rule, but there are three instances which I think show that these guilds can and should compete even with TMO back. First is Taken killing VS. FTE on VS is no different if IB/FE is allowed to engage, or if TMO is in the picture. If Taken got VS while BDA was there, then they can get it while anyone is there. At least they don't have any more chance than we do. It's very coinflippy. Same thing with Sev, FTE coinflip which bda could have had. You beat us to Tal, which is a mob that we consistently beat TMO to. There is zero reason why you guys shouldn't continue, and improve. And even if you don't think so, in my opinion we'll be seeing a lot more of it. Also, I think getting these mobs during the free weeks will only motivate and serve as practice for racing.

[Alarti0001]

Yendor I think that this is the beginning of those guilds actually competing with TMO more. Yes tmo is suspended now, but they will only be weaker when they get off suspension. They definitely haven't gained in strength. And if guilds are willing to compete with us then they should be confident competing with new tmo as well.



Lol don't delude yourself :)

[Hitpoint]

Lol don't delude yourself :)

Come on. You know they've always been able to get FTE on VS and other things. I'm actually not trying to trash talk TMO at all here, but lets be realistic, a two week suspension does not strengthen a raid guild like tmo. We took a noticeable hit from our 5 day one, or however long it was.

[Eloian]

Taken didn't beat BDA on FTE. We had a peeps there if Taken wiped but we gave them their shot firstly and they pulled it off. Grats Taken folks. They had people xp'ing waiting for spawn, when window got short lots more came. All perfectly good.

Eloian Bushlover (not Political Bushes)
57 Ranger <BDA>

[Sinestria]

Taken didn't beat BDA on FTE. We had a peeps there if Taken wiped but we gave them their shot firstly and they pulled it off. Grats Taken folks. They had people xp'ing waiting for spawn, when window got short lots more came. All perfectly good.

Eloian Bushlover (not Political Bushes)
57 Ranger <BDA>

A prime example of the civility that has been missing from the raid scene. Leapfrogging and FTE was are stupid

[YendorLootmonkey]

a two week suspension does not strengthen a raid guild like tmo.

It intensifies their resolve to come back and stick it to everyone else. Plus, it was over the holidays when most people would have been busy anyway. Don't underestimate your primary opponent, LOL.

[Hitpoint]

Taken didn't beat BDA on FTE. We had a peeps there if Taken wiped but we gave them their shot firstly and they pulled it off. Grats Taken folks. They had people xp'ing waiting for spawn, when window got short lots more came. All perfectly good.

Eloian Bushlover (not Political Bushes)
57 Ranger <BDA>

Did not know that. But in any case, VS is still an FTE coinflip. Not sure if you guys remember this, but Full Circle got a VS from TMO a while back, the first time they ever tried.

[Lammy]

Come on. You know they've always been able to get FTE on VS and other things. I'm actually not trying to trash talk TMO at all here, but lets be realistic, a two week suspension does not strengthen a raid guild like tmo. We took a noticeable hit from our 5 day one, or however long it was.


No offense but our guild isn't as weak in morale as yours.

We had 40+ for sky this passed sunday (which is more than we ever have) with a lot of accounts still on suspension until tomorrow... I hope you're ready for how hungry this pack of wolves will be when the suspension is lifted.

[Hitpoint]

No offense but our guild isn't as weak in morale as yours.

We had 40+ for sky this passed sunday (which is more than we ever have) with a lot of accounts still on suspension until tomorrow... I hope you're ready for how hungry this pack of wolves will be when the suspension is lifted.

We're not taking you lightly I promise.

[Fuddwin]

Taken didn't beat BDA on FTE. We had a peeps there if Taken wiped but we gave them their shot firstly and they pulled it off. Grats Taken folks. They had people xp'ing waiting for spawn, when window got short lots more came. All perfectly good.

Eloian Bushlover (not Political Bushes)
57 Ranger <BDA>


Awesome that BDA allowed Taken to have first shot... Gratz... BUT... The second part of your statement is what really gets to me... Why didn't Taken/BDA "exp" in VS pit when VS was in "short" window before? Why haven't you been there the countless other times? C'mon guys...

[captincrust]

Guild council is the only decent idea here.


+1. The rest of this does little to address the source of current issues regarding bad manners on this server

[Eloian]

One day it became about everyone sitting on spawn points for FTE. How/when this started I'm not sure. If a guild maintains a certain # of people near a raid target I would assume they are putting in the extra effort for that one. Farming Juggs, XP'ing in Pits, Farming VP ent. We all love to chase our pixels. I love some wild competition races FTE, Lock down and Shinanigans aren't cool tho.

Eloian Bushlover (Bushes have feelings too)
57 Ranger <BDA>

[YendorLootmonkey]

Awesome that BDA allowed Taken to have first shot... Gratz... BUT... The second part of your statement is what really gets to me... Why didn't Taken/BDA "exp" in VS pit when VS was in "short" window before? Why haven't you been there the countless other times? C'mon guys...

Because it's not worth the time spent there over a 96+ hour window when the chances of getting the mob are vastly reduced with FE/IB/TMO there, DA stall tanking, doing whatever it takes, 3am batphones, etc.

You are conveniently neglecting the fact that conditions here were very different than the norm. Stop pretending like you don't understand that other guilds want to make sure their time spent doing that sort of thing has a reasonable chance of being rewarded.

When it's a 1-in-2 chance against a guild that may or may not have the experience/strat to be successful with a sudden VS pop... those are good odds. FE/IB couldn't engage immediately because of the "can't kill for 2 hours if we were the last to kill it" rule, so both hardcore guilds were out of the picture for that spawn. Completely different scenario than before these last two weeks and you know it.

Add FE/IB and TMO into the mix who know all the tricks and having VS be a high-priority mob? Chances are our time is going to be for nothing.

[Troubled]

We are getting requests from guilds I have never heard of to attend the discussion tonight. May I suggest the smaller guilds voice their concerns to some of the higher up Cat B guilds like BDA, Divinity and Taken. Tonight's forum will be restricting representatives to 2 players from each guild. With that in mind, we will still be having 10 -12 people on our vent likely all talking at once. We know the concerns and we are doing our best to come to some sort of amiable solution that benefits everyone. However if you haven't killed a Dragon or God in the past 6 months, then please let your proxy be conveyed by one of the aforementioned guilds.

Morphius
Forceful Entry

Dictating what guilds are allowed to be at the meeting. Not a good start.

[sanluen]

We are getting requests from guilds I have never heard of to attend the discussion tonight. May I suggest the smaller guilds voice their concerns to some of the higher up Cat B guilds like BDA, Divinity and Taken. Tonight's forum will be restricting representatives to 2 players from each guild. With that in mind, we will still be having 10 -12 people on our vent likely all talking at once. We know the concerns and we are doing our best to come to some sort of amiable solution that benefits everyone. However if you haven't killed a Dragon or God in the past 6 months, then please let your proxy be conveyed by one of the aforementioned guilds.

Morphius
Forceful Entry


So only 6 guilds are allowed to talk about the future of the server? Do "Cat B" guilds get an equal vote? Seems to be against the entire idea of coming together as a server to make changes to make the future better for everyone.

[Rhambuk]

Dictating what guilds are allowed to be at the meeting. Not a good start.

Agreed. In my opinion there is NO reason that any guild should have more voice over another simply because they "put in time" or "have a reputation"

we all pay the same subscription! we deserve the same for our money!

[Eloian]

Dictating what guilds are allowed to be at the meeting. Not a good start.

I'm sure many many guilds could have entered the raid scene long ago but seeing the toxic pool we swim in they rather not get dirty, so they waited for Velious...and waited..and waited, frustration grows. Now the raid scene is being reshaped and all eyes are on it. Of course those guilds want a say. They deserve a say as much as anyone.

Eloian Bushlover (To keep your bushes clean don't let riffraff near it)
57 Ranger <BDA>

[Mezzmur]

I put the offered proposal from the other day down on paper and this is what I get, 35/35 split. Obviously using no-variance but you could easily put a sub-rotation into that for tier 2 guilds that want to do that and not force a sillybilly rotation upon those that don't.

http://i.imgur.com/rrvFa7J.png

[Lammy]

Mezzmur, you cant approach these folks with facts, they'll ignore you.

[Fuddwin]

Because it's not worth the time spent there over a 96+ hour window when the chances of getting the mob are vastly reduced with FE/IB/TMO there, DA stall tanking, doing whatever it takes, 3am batphones, etc.

You are conveniently neglecting the fact that conditions here were very different than the norm. Stop pretending like you don't understand that other guilds want to make sure their time spent doing that sort of thing has a reasonable chance of being rewarded.

When it's a 1-in-2 chance against a guild that may or may not have the experience/strat to be successful with a sudden VS pop... those are good odds. FE/IB couldn't engage immediately because of the "can't kill for 2 hours if we were the last to kill it" rule, so both hardcore guilds were out of the picture for that spawn. Completely different scenario than before these last two weeks and you know it.

Add FE/IB and TMO into the mix who know all the tricks and having VS be a high-priority mob? Chances are our time is going to be for nothing.


Would really like to respond but this is just a never ending battle... You want... Meh.. Nvm..

GG

[Fuddwin]

Mezzmur, you cant approach these folks with facts, they'll ignore you.

[Tyym]

I am not trying to exclude people from participating. But its going to get awfully ugly with 30 people in a channel everyone with a different opinion. Lets face it, there are X encounters in a 30 day cycle. Even if we went with Divinity's proposal, there are still a large number of guilds that will never see a kill of any type. Whether it is because they have too few people, their levels are too low, they don't have the experience, it doesn't matter. The people who should be negotiating are the guilds that: A) Stand to be adversely affected by the change or B) Who significantly benefit from the change.

Morphius

[Hitpoint]

I put the offered proposal from the other day down on paper and this is what I get, 35/35 split. Obviously using no-variance but you could easily put a sub-rotation into that for tier 2 guilds that want to do that and not force a sillybilly rotation upon those that don't.

http://i.imgur.com/rrvFa7J.png

Smoke and mirrors.

[YendorLootmonkey]

Would really like to respond but this is just a never ending battle... You want... Meh.. Nvm..

GG

No, go ahead... please tell me how the situation in which Taken got VS this last spawn is anything like how it would have been prior to TMO's raid suspension with both TMO and FE/IB gunning for it, too.

[Mezzmur]

I put the offered proposal from the other day down on paper and this is what I get, 35/35 split. Obviously using no-variance but you could easily put a sub-rotation into that for tier 2 guilds that want to do that and not force a sillybilly rotation upon those that don't.

http://i.imgur.com/rrvFa7J.png

I did more counting. Lets assume these numbers and perfect spawns and compare Divinity's Plan vs TMO/FE Proposal.

In the first 14 days of a month (I'll even count Day 15 and pray for the variance advantage).....

That's 38 mobs in the "snake draft" and the draft is now supposing 9 guilds. (probably a low number) 38 / 9 = 4.2222. That's 4.2 mob per guild that's not TMO/FE/IB or however that shakes out.

However, when TMO/FE/IB doesn't compete for mobs in the other proposal its 35 / 7 = 5.

[Durka]

No, go ahead... please tell me how the situation in which Taken got VS this last spawn is anything like how it would have been prior to TMO's raid suspension with both TMO and FE/IB gunning for it, too.

It would have been FTE like any other day, we just had the force there. And nobody there to train us to get the mob either. That was a little backhanded, but its true. Without TMO/FE/IB at that camp, we were able to kill the mob without being wiped by some 'accidental' train.

[Emile]

If you guys need a cleric for your xp group tomorrow+, PM me!

[Hitpoint]

It would have been FTE like any other day, we just had the force there. And nobody there to train us to get the mob either. That was a little backhanded, but its true. Without TMO/FE/IB at that camp, we were able to kill the mob without being wiped by some 'accidental' train.

If FE/IB and TMO were there, any accidental train would be squashed without any problem. On the server repop we had a massive train at VS. Which we killed immediately without deaths. Trains happen when idiots try and run from the zone in and don't know how to get there without agro. Despite what you may have heard TMO and FE/IB do not purposely train each-other at VS. Accidental trains are petitonable too though.

[Durka]

If FE/IB and TMO were there, any accidental train would be squashed without any problem. On the server repop we had a massive train at VS. Which we killed immediately without deaths. Trains happen when idiots try and run from the zone in and don't know how to get there without agro. Despite what you may have heard TMO and FE/IB do not purposely train each-other at VS. Accidental trains are petitonable too though.

Oh trains happen, trust me I have wasted hours recovering from those accidents. No way to point the finger anywhere though, people have gotten good at disguising who did it. Nevertheless, I brought this even more off topic.

Have the other guild leaders officially turned down this proposition?

[YendorLootmonkey]

It would have been FTE like any other day, we just had the force there. And nobody there to train us to get the mob either. That was a little backhanded, but its true. Without TMO/FE/IB at that camp, we were able to kill the mob without being wiped by some 'accidental' train.

Oh, I know that and you know that... I was asking Fuddwin since he seems to not understand why guilds like ours haven't done that prior to now. :)

The answer obviously being maintaining a force there XPing/poopsocking for a 96+ hour variance for a 1 in 2 shot vs. a 1 in 4 shot are drastically different risk vs reward constructs, especially against two guilds who know all the tricks, are up to DA stall tank, etc.

[Mezzmur]

Oh trains happen, trust me I have wasted hours recovering from those accidents. No way to point the finger anywhere though, people have gotten good at disguising who did it. Nevertheless, I brought this even more off topic.

Have the other guild leaders officially turned down this proposition?

This was the proposal brought up last summit to the other guilds. It was flatly rejected afaik. This is the SAME proposal that was offered by the OP, but 10 days instead of 7 days.

I think pictures and numbers help people understand better than just reading it.

[Hitpoint]

Oh trains happen, trust me I have wasted hours recovering from those accidents. No way to point the finger anywhere though, people have gotten good at disguising who did it. Nevertheless, I brought this even more off topic.

When plane of hate is your choice of target you're definitely going to get trained, no matter who you are. Even if you're the only guild there it can happen. Doesn't mean it's on purpose. There's a reason the big guilds NEVER go to hate on a full repop, even though Inny can be so fast and easy to get to. The chances of wiping to a train shitshow between multiple guilds and losing every other target is too likely.

[Durka]

This was the proposal brought up last summit to the other guilds. It was flatly rejected afaik. This is the SAME proposal that was offered by the OP, but 10 days instead of 7 days.

I think pictures and numbers help people understand better than just reading it.

I did read your previous post and looked at the numbers, but arent is that a true spreadsheet to variance? Or is that the perfect spawn rate.

http://wiki.project1999.com/Cazic_Thule_(God)

Respawn Time: 7 Days (+/- 48 hours)

I believe it was said in many ways that the code is not going to be changed to accommodate whatever is decided upon. With that said, I am sure you can mod your spreadsheet to show actual worst case scenario for spawns. Then crunch the numbers =D

[Mezzmur]

I did read your previous post and looked at the numbers, but arent is that a true spreadsheet to variance? Or is that the perfect spawn rate.

http://wiki.project1999.com/Cazic_Thule_(God)

Respawn Time: 7 Days (+/- 48 hours)

I believe it was said in many ways that the code is not going to be changed to accommodate whatever is decided upon. With that said, I am sure you can mod your spreadsheet to show actual worst case scenario for spawns. Then crunch the numbers =D

I was of the impression that they would consider disabling (extended?) variance in some period of time if the community is playing nice.

This is the law-of-averages spawn time but you can't write down the worst case scenario because of extended variance. VS could theoretically take 30 days to spawn.

It's entirely possible that some months you will get more on one side of the fence than the other, it'll go both ways.

[Hitpoint]

I did read your previous post and looked at the numbers, but arent is that a true spreadsheet to variance? Or is that the perfect spawn rate.

http://wiki.project1999.com/Cazic_Thule_(God)

Respawn Time: 7 Days (+/- 48 hours)

I believe it was said in many ways that the code is not going to be changed to accommodate whatever is decided upon. With that said, I am sure you can mod your spreadsheet to show actual worst case scenario for spawns. Then crunch the numbers =D

It's an average. He could crunch the numbers for best case scenario too.

[Durka]

I was of the impression that they would disable variance in some period of time if the community is playing nice.

This is the law-of-averages spawn time but you can't write down the worst case scenario because of extended variance. VS could theoretically take 30 days to spawn.

Yeah I think we are screwed with variance - wish we had that option to have it removed ;-)

Kinda hard to bite on this plan with the variance in play. Less opportunity for cat b. It could be more opportunity too, but I like to play devils advocate and go worst case scenario when making my decisions / deriving opinions. Maybe thats the wrong approach but it seems to serve me well!

Thank you for posting that information though, it does give a good understanding of actual vs perceived.

[Mezzmur]

Yeah I think we are screwed with variance - wish we had that option to have it removed ;-)

Kinda hard to bite on this plan with the variance in play. Less opportunity for cat b. It could be more opportunity too, but I like to play devils advocate and go worst case scenario when making my decisions / deriving opinions. Maybe thats the wrong approach but it seems to serve me well!

Thank you for posting that information though, it does give a good understanding of actual vs perceived.

If you actually took the real average of 14 day snake and went with the guilds *today* its 30/9 vs 35/7.

I actually included day 15 in Divinity's numbers to make them look better than they actually are.

[Moodie]

Taken didn't beat BDA on FTE. We had a peeps there if Taken wiped but we gave them their shot firstly and they pulled it off. Grats Taken folks. They had people xp'ing waiting for spawn, when window got short lots more came. All perfectly good.

Eloian Bushlover (not Political Bushes)
57 Ranger <BDA>

Check your logs... FTE was Taken.

[Durka]

Check your logs... FTE was Taken.

Nevertheless, I think keeping this on topic is key. I do like averages when I am accounting for things that arent so critical. I use worst case scenario when I want to make hard decisions. Worst case scenario seems to highly favor cat a. But that is 1 person in 1 guilds opinion - I refuse to speak for others!

I do appreciate all of the supportive facts though. It does show a great option if variance wasnt an issue!

[Mezzmur]

The only number you can rely on is average because it's constant to both plans. If a spawn takes longer in either plan, it pushes it out of the 14 day window and it'll go FFA either way. TMO/FE/IB would participate in the rotation plan as well as on the FFA side, which is why the mobs-per-guild is always higher in the hands-off-no-rotation plans.

[Seltius]

I want to say this and it isn't targeting anyone or any idea.

The GMs have already made the first change towards improving the raid scene when they removed the No GM intervention in VP and banned future intentional training in VP. With this and the fact that intentional training is banned everywhere else how about working around that for a basis of competition.

BDA, A-Team, Europa, Taken, IB/FE(even separate if they want), TMO, and any other guild that wants a shot can attempt it all they have to do is clear around the dragon or pull the dragon to their raid. If they engage first the new PnP by its very nature should prevent any interference. You get your shot you fail and the next guild there ready gets a shot. Now you need to iron out how long you have to prep prior to engaging. This is an example for VP but every zone should work that way. If you are worried about alt armies then go and level your own alts and park them there or have your members camp there. You can find out when its in window and every guild can have trackers there.


Just a suggestion you talk about how toxic things are then make an effort to better yourself and improve them in the process. That way any guild that wants to raid can compete without underhanded interference but the alts thing isn't going away.

If you really want a chance to compete in VP maybe work it out to where you can get trak tooth from another guild or work out trades or something for epic loots/ etc. Or make alliances that raid and work out how the teeth are handled. Get enough people to try the dragons whether it is 10 or 25+ and then go in and fight for it.

Your complaining about attrition through numbers that's not TMO or IB/FE fault that they have the characters/alts to compete.

[Eloian]

Check your logs... FTE was Taken.

It wasn't decided by FTE. BDA never tried to FTE. We only waited to see if you'd wipe or not. No more no less.

Eloian Bushlover (What's that wolf doing to that bush? OMG?!?!?!)
57 Ranger <BDA>

[Durka]

It wasn't decided by FTE. BDA never tried to FTE. We only waited to see if you'd wipe or not. No more no less.

Eloian Bushlover (What's that wolf doing to that bush? OMG?!?!?!)
57 Ranger <BDA>

Heh, well, nevertheless, Taken did it easily. No hiccups. We are a very capable force if we arent trained.

[Eloian]

Like I said, you guys put in the extra effort, Xp'd there for who knows how long and showed up in larger numbers when window was short. Good job and grats!

Eloian Bushlover (Bare bushes are still bushes)
57 Ranger <BDA>

[Durka]

Like I said, you guys put in the extra effort, Xp'd there for who knows how long and showed up in larger numbers when window was short. Good job and grats!

Eloian Bushlover (Bare bushes are still bushes)
57 Ranger <BDA>

=D

Danke!

[Joyelle]

guys! guys! Can we go back to negotiating now? you know, handouts, socialism, effort, second class citizens, etc? GO!

[Mezzmur]

guys! guys! Can we go back to negotiating now? you know, handouts, socialism, effort, second class citizens, etc? GO!

Once I posted actual non-troll numbers people stopped posting/responding. :mad:

[kotton05]

guys! guys! Can we go back to negotiating now? you know, handouts, socialism, effort, second class citizens, etc? GO!

poor raid agreement

[Morbo the Annihilator]

I want to say this and it isn't targeting anyone or any idea.

The GMs have already made the first change towards improving the raid scene when they removed the No GM intervention in VP and banned future intentional training in VP. With this and the fact that intentional training is banned everywhere else how about working around that for a basis of competition.

BDA, A-Team, Europa, Taken, IB/FE(even separate if they want), TMO, and any other guild that wants a shot can attempt it all they have to do is clear around the dragon or pull the dragon to their raid. If they engage first the new PnP by its very nature should prevent any interference. You get your shot you fail and the next guild there ready gets a shot. Now you need to iron out how long you have to prep prior to engaging. This is an example for VP but every zone should work that way. If you are worried about alt armies then go and level your own alts and park them there or have your members camp there. You can find out when its in window and every guild can have trackers there.


Just a suggestion you talk about how toxic things are then make an effort to better yourself and improve them in the process. That way any guild that wants to raid can compete without underhanded interference but the alts thing isn't going away.

If you really want a chance to compete in VP maybe work it out to where you can get trak tooth from another guild or work out trades or something for epic loots/ etc. Or make alliances that raid and work out how the teeth are handled. Get enough people to try the dragons whether it is 10 or 25+ and then go in and fight for it.

Your complaining about attrition through numbers that's not TMO or IB/FE fault that they have the characters/alts to compete.


Translation:
In order to move forward, all guilds should adopt the raiding strategies that sent the raid scene spiralling down the toilet in the first place.


Currently, the only avenue that a guild must take in order to see a raid boss is to track through excessive spawn windows and have an army camped nearby.
It has been determined by GMs and a majority of raiders that this should not be the only avenue for seeing a raid target.

So other avenues must be considered.

Splitting each month into a 50% rotation/50% FFA seems like a popular option for a lot of people, though it's still considered to be charity by those who are willing to spend their lives tracking it in a FFA setting.

What if the Rotation in the first 15-days of the month only offered each guild a 20-minute grace period before going into FFA, rather than 8 hours (which IMO is excessive).
That way, guilds aren't taking all of their rotation mobs for granted. They still have to track and mobilise as fast as usual, but they just have 20 minutes of no interruptions in order to get to their raid boss.
If they wipe or fail to engage within 20 minutes, their mob becomes FFA.

[Frieza_Prexus]

What if the Rotation in the first 15-days of the month only offered each guild a 20-minute grace period before going into FFA, rather than 8 hours (which IMO is excessive).
That way, guilds aren't taking all of their rotation mobs for granted. They still have to track and mobilise as fast as usual, but they just have 20 minutes of no interruptions in order to get to their raid boss.
If they wipe or fail to engage within 20 minutes, their mob becomes FFA.

Reasonably fair, but this does not solve the issue of 4 AM VS spawns. You'll just have TMO and FE sitting there with stop watches to determine when the grace period is up.

The issue is both the hardcore's instant response dominance and the variance. Both of those factors are preventing lesser guilds from meaningfully participating and experiencing endgame content. Any solution needs to place restrictions on guilds that would off-hours raid and restrictions on guilds that would take a disproportionate share of mobs.

Hands-off periods with a bag limit for each guild during that time is still, in my mind, the simplest and most fair.

[Fael]

when will people realize you cannot split 17 mobs per week among 1,000 lvl 60s and think that all 1,000 will like the agreement?

Server casuals should be thrilled they are given one week per month to raid freely. Instead they want moar. Who wouldnt?

This whole exercise in futility must be a massive troll by rogean.

Dolic

[JayN]

when will people realize you cannot split 17 mobs per week among 1,000 lvl 60s

This whole exercise in futility must be a massive troll by rogean AIDS.

Dolic
amen

[Eloian]

People have mentioned server wipes a bunch as well. How about a new fresh Blue...or RP server. I would go for that. TMO/IB/FE can circle each other in the endless fishbowl while rest of us enjoy a starting fresh. Maybe with a Guild PnP that doesn't let raiding get outa hand right away. I can dream damn it.

57 Ranger (Trim your bush ma'am?)
<BDA>

[Troubled]

edit: deleted in good taste

[Buriedpast]

Project 2000 PNP please.

[Speedling]

50% rotation,

50% FFA.

Problem solved. OMGZOR

[Troubled]

50% rotation,

50% FFA.

Problem solved. OMGZOR

The Divinity Proposal.(tm)

[Mezzmur]

50% rotation,

50% FFA.

Problem solved. OMGZOR

Read previous posts, I already showed this results in fewer mobs-per-guild than the OP's proposal with 10 day hands off.

[Mezzmur]

I did more counting. Lets assume these numbers and perfect spawns and compare Divinity's Plan vs TMO/FE Proposal.

In the first 14 days of a month (I'll even count Day 15 and pray for the variance advantage).....

That's 38 mobs in the "snake draft" and the draft is now supposing 9 guilds. (probably a low number) 38 / 9 = 4.2222. That's 4.2 mob per guild that's not TMO/FE/IB or however that shakes out.

However, when TMO/FE/IB doesn't compete for mobs in the other proposal its 35 / 7 = 5.

This gets worse as more guilds enter the rotation phase.

[Durka]

when will people realize you cannot split 17 mobs per week among 1,000 lvl 60s and think that all 1,000 will like the agreement?

Server casuals should be thrilled they are given one week per month to raid freely. Instead they want moar. Who wouldnt?

This whole exercise in futility must be a massive troll by rogean.

Dolic

Are you referring to guilds like <The Knights Who Say Ni> because I am 100% positive BDA / Taken / A-Team are all hardcore (hell maybe even divinity)

Your post offends me.

[Obrae]

Are you referring to guilds like <The Knights Who Say Ni> because I am 100% positive BDA / Taken / A-Team are all hardcore (hell maybe even divinity)

Your post offends me.

thats still one week where the hardcore platfarmers can raid without serious guild to compete against, its pretty nice no ? so you can use the rest of the month to vacate to your personnal gain without any pressure to mobilize to kill a raid mob. And you can come here after to cry because life is unfair.

[Seltius]

Translation:
In order to move forward, all guilds should adopt the raiding strategies that sent the raid scene spiralling down the toilet in the first place.


Currently, the only avenue that a guild must take in order to see a raid boss is to track through excessive spawn windows and have an army camped nearby.
It has been determined by GMs and a majority of raiders that this should not be the only avenue for seeing a raid target.

So other avenues must be considered.

Splitting each month into a 50% rotation/50% FFA seems like a popular option for a lot of people, though it's still considered to be charity by those who are willing to spend their lives tracking it in a FFA setting.

What if the Rotation in the first 15-days of the month only offered each guild a 20-minute grace period before going into FFA, rather than 8 hours (which IMO is excessive).
That way, guilds aren't taking all of their rotation mobs for granted. They still have to track and mobilise as fast as usual, but they just have 20 minutes of no interruptions in order to get to their raid boss.
If they wipe or fail to engage within 20 minutes, their mob becomes FFA.

Then im lost on what is considered toxic on this server. Since I started playing I have heard how toxic the raid scene is but when someone is asked they can never explain what they mean. Is toxic having alts or is it the training in VP that was allowed or is it the training and ksing etc. that was "accidentally" happening between the "hardcore" raiding guilds on things like Trak and VS? Or maybe how they actually had to put FTE in because otherwise guilds will try to steal targets from each other. Perfect example was Nobles how many guilds would sit there and wait for the spawn to see if they could be the one lucky enough to hit it first and get FTE? Please explain as I was attempting to at least understand to an extent what the issue is instead of attacking others over their ideas.

I'm glad your offering ideas but so was I. Oh and I'm actually pretty clueless about how bad the server has been for 2 years. For the most part I have tried to play nice and stay out of the guild politics. I chat and joke with everyone no matter tag ask Taselhof(sp? sorry man I cant remember your an Jeremy's alts spellings of name) I would talk with him in KC or Seb or even VP while there.

I feel that the brainstorming here is an alternative to the hate that has been going on here so heavily even if our ideas aren't discussed by or respective representatives. So I wont bash your ideas and feel free not to bash mine if you would like to try to improve on them then go ahead I wont be offended. But the point of my post stands. The GMs gave us the start of a way to raid less toxic start with that and build from there.

[AenarieFenninRo]

I have not weighed in on this at all up until this point but I thought I would finally throw my hat into the ring because we seem to get lost in all sorts of minutiae that causes all manner of hate and vitriol between those that are "casual" and those that are "hardcore"

=========

I as a "hardcore" raider, made a choice to join TMO because I wanted to compete for a raid target. I am 100% against any type of rotation, I think its complete care-bear bullshit. I also do not think that (rotations) are what Rogean had in mind when he made the sweeping statements about the raid scene, I could be wrong, but that is my own perception.

What I believe Rogean desired with his statement about the raid scene was that (1) the GMs didn't want to have to deal with raid disputes every time a raid mob spawned, and (2) smaller guilds never getting a chance to fight a raid mob. I don't think Rogean's statement means everyone should be equal and i don't want any more competition on my server (thats what a rotation is).

Part #2 meant that the "hardcore" guilds needed to give up some mobs.

This plan does that. It means that everyone gets to have their mobs because the "hardcore" guilds are backing off of them.

Explanation:

If a small guild tried to compete with the "hardcore" guilds right now, they would have been slaughtered, which means that the small guilds did NOT compete, and thus very rarely got any raid mobs.

The proposal outlined above ensures that the "casuals" wont have to deal with fighting against the "hardcore" that are TMO or FE/IB (or any future "hardcore" guild).

However the "casuals" want to deal with their raiding situations, they're allowed to do so. If they want a rotation, a fight amongst each other for FTE, whatever... they don't have to deal with it, and there are raid mobs for them to do it on.

IF they want to enter the ring with the "hardcore" guilds, they're more than welcome to do so, at any time, and step away from it if they don't like it, at any time. Even if they never decide to step into the ring with the "top" guilds, they STILL GET MOBS! This plan allows for the switching back and forth


Part #1 which still involves competition at the "hardcore" level - Not related to you "casual scum" ;) at this time

This plan also does that by instituting a "guild council" for us to discuss issues on a neutral basis without GM involvement unless absolutely necessary.

Explanation:

I will be completely honest here and make a blanket statement that I don't think anyone will dispute. Raiding lately has NOT been the most enjoyable situation for either TMO or FE/IB. The competition side of it has been AWESOME, but the petition and fraps questing have not. I don't know that anyone was getting their rocks off on having to deal with petition/fraps questing after every... single... raid (maybe it was for some people but i doubt the majority). If you added additional raid forces to the competition, it would have only gotten worse.

I'm not going to throw the raid forces under the bus here by saying who did what (go to R&F for that), but there were instances of one guild or another having FTE and and an opposing guild doing something dumb or disruptive. There have been DA stalls, there has been snipe-questing... you name it, all within the letter of the law as it has been previously outlined.

So what happened when someone did something wrong? We bitched and complained about it, if you feel wronged that is what you do until you get some restitution. Some of those decisions went to one guild, some to the other. People didn't like it when it didn't go their way.

That has been the nature of the raid scene lately, on EVERY... SINGLE... ENCOUNTER, it was less about what you did right, and trying to find the flaw in what your opponent did wrong.

That is what has been broken since the beginning of the server, that is what needed to be fixed (beyond the scarcity of mobs for the "casuals").

We as the "hardcore" guilds need to find the best way to make this happen. This also means that when another guild enters the "hardcore" raid scene we need to find a way to involve them in whatever the decision may be.

The Raid Council suggestion that is part of this proposal moves us toward this. Is it enough? Only time will tell, maybe there needs to be additional rules we set along the way to make it all work. As that is defined going forward, we need to post those rules for EVERYONE on the server to see so they know what they're getting into when joining the "hardcore" raid scene.

TL;DR:
- Let the "hardcore" raiders decide the "hardcore rules"
- Let the "casuals" decide the "casual casual" rules
- This plan allows for both to happen because there are enough mobs for everyone in either category

Additional There have been mention about moving mobs from primary / secondary, moving from "casual" to "hardcore" and back to "casual", and # of days that need to be hashed but I think that those should be the only real sticking points here between the "hardcore" and "casual" players.