Class C loses mobs on every repop?

[Hitpoint]

This plan was sold as being 33% Class R, 33% Class C and 33% FFA. Well with the bag limits for server repops, it isn't.

Lets say for this upcoming repop, we have 4 class C mobs and 4 FFA mobs. (which is true of this repop.) TMO and FE/IB are only allowed to kill 4 of them combined (bag limit of 2). So lets say we go after Trak (FFA) and VS (FFA), then we can choose between the 4 class C mobs. Lets say we choose Sev, and Inny. There are still two class C mobs left (gore and fay), ones that should be guaranteed to us because it's our turn on the rotation. But we now have a 12 hour lockout before we're allowed to try these, because of the repop bag limit. Class R has a 6 hour lockout before a target becomes FFA to them. So any class C mobs that we don't kill before our bag limits are reached, become defaulted to Class R. We also can't attempt the remaining FFA mobs. This means that we are guaranteed to lose mobs that are ours on the rotation. And it's going to happen on every single repop. Either we lose Class C mobs, or we lose the ability to contest FFA mobs. Either way this isn't an even 33% split, and it's undermining the rotation.

I basically like the new raid rules otherwise. Is this an oversight perhaps? Is it intended? I would love to hear from a GM about this. Thanks for your time.

[Mezzmur]

I have pointed this out multiple times today and would still like a response. It's a side-effect of having fewer guilds in Class C. It's also the reason that we asked for no bag limits in Class C or up it to 3.

You're also assuming that FE/IB raid together outside of VP. Will IB FE raid separately in VP and Outside to pick up the extra mobs?


Added:
Additionally; If TMO/FE/IB want to go for Trak, he COULD spawn 24 hours after 12:01AM. However, Fay could spawn instantly and sit up for 6 hours making him FFA and a Class R guild could kill, meanwhile, because of Bag Limits, TMO/FE/IB are reluctant to kill because they want other mobs. Then the loser gets nothing because the other mobs are already dead. This is also why a full repop at 12:01am is superior.

Full Repop Rules with Variance Spawns is not cool.

[Hitpoint]

I mean, I saw the Class R guilds were asking for the bag limit to be removed, as it doesn't make sense in a rotation system. If they are okay with removing or raising the bag limit, then why is it still set at 2? I don't know the answer to your question.

[Mezzmur]

I mean, I saw the Class R guilds were asking for the bag limit to be removed, as it doesn't make sense in a rotation system. If they are okay with removing or raising the bag limit, then why is it still set at 2? I don't know the answer to your question.

Spawn More Rogearlords!

[justin2090]

Maybe it was left open like that intentionally to give Class R guilds incentive to move up? It would probably be best to let a week go by and then critique the raid agreement afterwards.

[Mezzmur]

Maybe it was left open like that intentionally to give Class R guilds incentive to move up? It would probably be best to let a week go by and then critique the raid agreement afterwards.

There's no incentive to move up, just have to wait 6 hours to get the mob without having to do anything special.

[justin2090]

There's no incentive to move up, just have to wait 6 hours to get the mob without having to do anything special.

Being able to compete in VP and still get mobs outside guaranteed is incentive

[Mezzmur]

Being able to compete in VP and still get mobs outside guaranteed is incentive

Fair enough, VP is definitely, I thought you were implying the "leftover" targets that we aren't allowed to kill was.

[dustysr06]

Could be to allow some mobs to not be killed within 15 minutes of spawning on a server repop, so some other guilds have a crack at it that cant batphone a raidforce in on command. Also makes you pick your targets strategically rather than just running the table on whatever you can get your hands on, as fast as you possibly can.

I'm good with or without a bag limit, but i kind of like the idea behind it personally for the above reasons.

[Yinikren]

Could be to allow some mobs to not be killed within 15 minutes of spawning on a server repop, so some other guilds have a crack at it that cant batphone a raidforce in on command. Also makes you pick your targets strategically rather than just running the table on whatever you can get your hands on, as fast as you possibly can.

I'm good with or without a bag limit, but i kind of like the idea behind it personally for the above reasons.

I am 100% in agreeance with this to keep people from downing mobs 7 seconds after they spawn. That's the beauty if this system - you pick what is important to you or risk not being able to get it at all.

[Mezzmur]

The bag system is great when everything spawns at the same time and there's not all these 12 hour 6 hour ffa tier systems in place.

What can happen now is you can't pick your targets and go for them, you roll the dice that its going to spawn and you're going to win if those mobs fall out of your tier your screwed. That's the point on this non-simulated-simulated repop.

IE Fay spawns at hour 0, At hour 6 goes FFA, Class R guild kills uncontested free kill not on their rotation schedule because Guilds are waiting for the two most important mobs. However, the loser doesn't get to fall back on the tier's mobs that belong to their rotation because this simulated repop doesnt repop everything at the same time.

[Elements]

This plan was sold as being 33% Class R, 33% Class C and 33% FFA. Well with the bag limits for server repops, it isn't.

Lets say for this upcoming repop, we have 4 class C mobs and 4 FFA mobs. (which is true of this repop.) TMO and FE/IB are only allowed to kill 4 of them combined (bag limit of 2). So lets say we go after Trak (FFA) and VS (FFA), then we can choose between the 4 class C mobs. Lets say we choose Sev, and Inny. There are still two class C mobs left (gore and fay), ones that should be guaranteed to us because it's our turn on the rotation. But we now have a 12 hour lockout before we're allowed to try these, because of the repop bag limit. Class R has a 6 hour lockout before a target becomes FFA to them. So any class C mobs that we don't kill before our bag limits are reached, become defaulted to Class R. We also can't attempt the remaining FFA mobs. This means that we are guaranteed to lose mobs that are ours on the rotation. And it's going to happen on every single repop. Either we lose Class C mobs, or we lose the ability to contest FFA mobs. Either way this isn't an even 33% split, and it's undermining the rotation.

I basically like the new raid rules otherwise. Is this an oversight perhaps? Is it intended? I would love to hear from a GM about this. Thanks for your time.

This is a really good point. Could either remove the bag limit from FFA/Class C mobs on repop or change it to 4.

[Lostprophets]

This is a really good point. Could either remove the bag limit from FFA/Class C mobs on repop or change it to 4.

you realize there's basically 9 possibly 10 guilds for Class R and 3 possibly 4 guilds that are in Class C, right? All depends on where Bob Guild Stands, and If FE/IB do their own thing and split up.

In retrospect, Class R is in the same boat as Class C..except Class R has MORE guilds in the mix than Class C.

I don't see the issue here.

[Hitpoint]

you realize there's basically 9 possibly 10 guilds for Class R and 3 possibly 4 guilds that are in Class C, right? All depends on where Bob Guild Stands, and If FE/IB do their own thing and split up.

In retrospect, Class R is in the same boat as Class C..except Class R has MORE guilds in the mix than Class C.

I don't see the issue here.

Well the issue is that mobs are divided by Class not number of guilds. We're not getting the guaranteed 33% Class C that was promised. It's actually way better for us if a repop doesn't occur and the mobs spawn normally.

[justin2090]

The bag system is great when everything spawns at the same time and there's not all these 12 hour 6 hour ffa tier systems in place.

What can happen now is you can't pick your targets and go for them, you roll the dice that its going to spawn and you're going to win if those mobs fall out of your tier your screwed. That's the point on this non-simulated-simulated repop.

IE Fay spawns at hour 0, At hour 6 goes FFA, Class R guild kills uncontested free kill not on their rotation schedule because Guilds are waiting for the two most important mobs. However, the loser doesn't get to fall back on the tier's mobs that belong to their rotation because this simulated repop doesnt repop everything at the same time.

Say hello to the A-Team 12 man dragon killin squad. Oh wait who am I kiddin? 6 man dragon killin squad!!!

[dustysr06]

The bag system is great when everything spawns at the same time and there's not all these 12 hour 6 hour ffa tier systems in place.

What can happen now is you can't pick your targets and go for them, you roll the dice that its going to spawn and you're going to win if those mobs fall out of your tier your screwed. That's the point on this non-simulated-simulated repop.

IE Fay spawns at hour 0, At hour 6 goes FFA, Class R guild kills uncontested free kill not on their rotation schedule because Guilds are waiting for the two most important mobs. However, the loser doesn't get to fall back on the tier's mobs that belong to their rotation because this simulated repop doesnt repop everything at the same time.

I'm assuming that he will spawn everything at once, he just isnt going to tell us when that will be? In your scenario of Fay being left up for 6hrs- it would then become FFA yes, however, any other guild who has met their 2 mob limit, would have to wait the 12 hour window out just like you would before it became truly FFA (no longer locked out)

The idea here is to let mobs like this go to some of the smaller guys, unless you're currently needing something from her worth using one of ur bags for in which case- it was worth it right?

[Mezzmur]

I'm assuming that he will spawn everything at once, he just isnt going to tell us when that will be?

I hope you're right and then my point would be moot.

[dustysr06]

rogean, if ur listening - just spawn everything at once..

[Galelor]

Maybe I missed this, but some guilds may not be tracking 24/7. Is the 'hour' status of the mob going to be communicated via the website, a system wide message, a suffix on the mob name, etc.?

[dustysr06]

Maybe I missed this, but some guilds may not be tracking 24/7. Is the 'hour' status of the mob going to be communicated via the website, a system wide message, a suffix on the mob name, etc.?

Doubtful - keep track o yer merbz :) if you see something up, kill it! Variance is most likely going to be toned down drastically enough to not have to track 24/7 anymore so that should help also.

[LizardNecro]

This could create an incentive for large class C guilds to break up into smaller, more efficient groups.

With the new 1/1/1 structure and PnP in place, guilds don't need to zerg anymore. A subset of hardcore raiding guild skilled players could break off into a tighter, more efficient elite raiding force. More loot to take, and more loot to go around overall, as an increase in the number of class C guilds gives an incentive for someone to take the lower priority mobs.

It would be interesting to see what the very best on the server could do as an elite force.

[falkun]

Any guild that kills the class C "spare" mobs before the 6hrs is up becomes class C. This is incentive for R guilds to move up to C, to have a free shot at these mobs, to more evenly distribute mobs (a staff goal).

Finally, if you think this system is skewed so favorably towards Class R, no one is stopping you from riding the 'gravy train' as well.

[Hitpoint]

Any guild that kills the class C "spare" mobs before the 6hrs is up becomes class C. This is incentive for R guilds to move up to C, to have a free shot at these mobs, to more evenly distribute mobs (a staff goal).

Finally, if you think this system is skewed so favorably towards Class R, no one is stopping you from riding the 'gravy train' as well.

But if they wait until after 6 hours the mob becomes FFA and they can kill it without moving classes. We still can't engage for another 6. So the bag limit and 12 hour lockout doesn't give guilds a chance to move up, it just gives away our mobs for no reason. I'm not looking to argue about who the system favors. I'm pointing out an obvious loophole that I believe to be an accident, and I hope the GMs will either amend it or state why it's intentional.

Proposed fixes from best to worst:

1. Have the bag limit only apply to FFA mobs

2. Make repop entirely FFA WITH a bag limit (of at least 3) and the full repop does not affect the normal rotation.

3. Leave the rules the way they are now. Raise the cap of the bag limit to 3 or 4, so the amount of mobs we auto lose isn't so extreme.

[Ele]

But if they wait until after 6 hours the mob becomes FFA and they can kill it without moving classes. We still can't engage for another 6. So the bag limit and 12 hour lockout doesn't give guilds a chance to move up, it just gives away our mobs for no reason. I'm not looking to argue about who the system favors. I'm pointing out an obvious loophole that I believe to be an accident, and I hope the GMs will either amend it or state why it's intentional.

Proposed fixes from best to worst:

1. Have the bag limit only apply to FFA mobs

2. Make repop entirely FFA WITH a bag limit (of at least 3) and the full repop does not affect the normal rotation.

3. Leave the rules the way they are now. Raise the cap of the bag limit to 3 or 4, so the amount of mobs we auto lose isn't so extreme.

You don't lose anything, those mobs were never yours.

[Mezzmur]

You don't lose anything, those mobs were never yours.

They were mine, I licked them first.

[Hitpoint]

You don't lose anything, those mobs were never yours.

Not sure if trolling. The class C mobs are definitely ours, or they wouldn't be class C mobs.

[Joyelle]

The class C mobs are definitely ours, or they wouldn't be class C mobs.

ok so what you're saying here is that TMO FE and IB are most definitely Class C?

[Swish]

Getting to the point where the only thing I want to raid is the fridge :D

[Nuggets]

Maybe I missed this, but some guilds may not be tracking 24/7. Is the 'hour' status of the mob going to be communicated via the website, a system wide message, a suffix on the mob name, etc.?

What he said. How are we supposed to know the windows? Yellow text? "Lord Nagafen begins to read a book in boredom"?

Or will it be "classic" and force GM's to dig thru logs when windows are protested?

[Nirgon]

Staff enforced rotation terrible idea.

Disallowing things like camping out at mobs, great idea.

[Tameth]

Getting to the point where the only thing I want to raid is the fridge :D

panty raiding in effect

[Elements]

The problem in an example: tmo and fe/ib compete for ffa mob #1, tmo wins. Tmo and fe/ib compete for ffa mob #2, tmo wins. Now tmo has to sit out while fe/ib get 5+ hours to casually slay 2 of 4 class c mobs... really? This is what we are calling class c (competitive)??? Its more casual than class r at that point. Two class c mobs go ffa 6 hours later...

Ps this is a repop example.

Please increase bag limit on ffa/class c repops to 4 to promote competition.

[Daldolma]

pras rogaine, scourge of the neckbeard and collector of tears

[Erati]

The problem in an example: tmo and fe/ib compete for ffa mob #1, tmo wins. Tmo and fe/ib compete for ffa mob #2, tmo wins. Now tmo has to sit out while fe/ib get 5+ hours to casually slay 2 of 4 class c mobs... really? This is what we are calling class c (competitive)??? Its more casual than class r at that point. Two class c mobs go ffa 6 hours later...

Ps this is a repop example.

Please increase bag limit on ffa/class c repops to 4 to promote competition.

VP has no bag limit I believe right ?

So you guys compete for the 'best' ffa mobs and then continue competition in VP or let the other guild go for what you deem a lesser Class C mob and you clean up in VP?

what am I missing.... remember the server will eventually have more than 3 - ish guilds in Tier C....

Eventually a bunch of the bigger R guilds will be in that Tier as well, hence the beauty of this plan...its a long term solution.

[baalzy]

There's no incentive to move up, just have to wait 6 hours to get the mob without having to do anything special.

Class R guilds have a 2 spawn lockout for that mobs class after a kill of a Class R mob. This means if BDA kills CT during Class R during this repop BDA can only go after FFA CTs until 2 more Class R ones repop.

If the rotation is Class R > FFA > Class C and CT spawns every 7 days plus an additional repop every 10 days (2-4 repops a month should average to about 10 days).

Day 0 BDA kills CT (class R).
Day 7 FFA CT spawns and BDA can go after him (doesnt matter if they get him or not)
Day 10 server repop. CT is Class C. BDA can't touch him.
Day 14 CT pops as class R. 2 mob lockout still in effect. BDA can't touch.
Day 20 server repop. CT is FFA. BDA can go after him.
Day 21 CT pops as Class C. BDA can't go after him
Day 28 CT pops as Class R. BDA can't touch (still locked out).
Day 30 server repop. CT is FFA. BDA can go after
Day 35 CT pops as Class C. BDA can't go after.
Day 40 server repop. CT is Class R. BDA Can now go after


BDA gets 1 kill then 3 more chances at CT in a 40 day cycle.
The Class C guilds get 6 chances at CT in those 40 days, regardless of how many kills they get.

In this same time frame Class C guilds have had access to 10 full VP pops (60 dragons total, 30 if you only count the 3 that people say are really worthwhile).

I'd say thats pretty decent incentive to want to move up if you're capable.

With that said, I don't see how upping the bag limit to 3 would really make any kind of negative impact.

[falkun]

The staff had a goal to spread kills around to more guilds. Two (2) bag-limit allows more guilds to kill more targets on repop days, so it meets the goal better than a limit of three (3)

[Mezzmur]

Repops require mobs to spawn. End of Message.

:)

[Elements]

VP has no bag limit I believe right ?

So you guys compete for the 'best' ffa mobs and then continue competition in VP or let the other guild go for what you deem a lesser Class C mob and you clean up in VP?

what am I missing.... remember the server will eventually have more than 3 - ish guilds in Tier C....

Eventually a bunch of the bigger R guilds will be in that Tier as well, hence the beauty of this plan...its a long term solution.

The plan only gets worse as class C becomes overburdened. At some point there it would be more favourable to be in tier R without having access to VP is tier C becomes too full.

[baalzy]

The plan only gets worse as class C becomes overburdened. At some point there it would be more favourable to be in tier R without having access to VP is tier C becomes too full.

Wut? If only 3 guilds are in Class R and everyone else is in Class C then yeah it would probably improve your odds if you were in one of the Class R guilds.

But given the last 3 years, do you really think that's likely or are you trying to make a mountain out of a molehill?

[falkun]

But Class C is "competition" because people wanted competition. Now you are worried about too much competition?

FE, TMO, and IB, who make up less than 20% of the population, will be splitting 50+% of the weekly spawns (1x 7-days and 2x 3-days, 6 VP mobs are C-only), not including repops and not including FFA. The other 80% of the population is splitting 23% of the weekly spawns, not including FFA. I don't think Class C has to worry about becoming "too full" anytime soon.

[Elements]

But Class C is "competition" because people wanted competition. Now you are worried about too much competition?

FE, TMO, and IB, who make up less than 20% of the population, will be splitting 50+% of the weekly spawns (1x 7-days and 2x 3-days, 6 VP mobs are C-only), not including repops and not including FFA. The other 80% of the population is splitting 23% of the weekly spawns, not including FFA. I don't think Class C has to worry about becoming "too full" anytime soon.

Please stop with these made up bullshit numbers. Bag limits on respawns and FFA mobs make your scenario extremely unlikely. Im not saying competition is bad Im saying the plan doesn't scale well if many guilds decide they want to compete.

[baalzy]

Please stop with these made up bullshit numbers. Bag limits on respawns and FFA mobs make your scenario extremely unlikely. Im not saying competition is bad Im saying the plan doesn't scale well if many guilds decide they want to compete.

Add one (1) more guild to the Class C category (Dojo anyone?) and all this whining becomes a non-issue.

[Erati]

Please stop with these made up bullshit numbers. Bag limits on respawns and FFA mobs make your scenario extremely unlikely. Im not saying competition is bad Im saying the plan doesn't scale well if many guilds decide they want to compete.

Prove it 'tm'

[Elements]

Add one (1) more guild to the Class C category (Dojo anyone?) and all this whining becomes a non-issue.

No it then becomes 3 guilds competing for potentially 8 mobs (class C + FFA), then 2 guilds competing for potentially 6 mobs, then 1 guild still potentially being left with 4 class C mobs to take 5 hours to kill...

The bag limit prevents class C competition on repops unless we get many more class C guilds.

[falkun]

If my numbers are wrong, prove it.

Variance has been nerfed to +/-8hrs, and extended variance removed. Therefore every 7-day spawn will spawn on average every 7 days, and every 3-day spawn will spawn 2.33 times per 7-days (on average). There are nine (9) 7-day spawns in the 1:1:1 plan (Naggy, Vox, Inny, CT, Tal, Gore, Sev, Fay, VS), three (3) d-day spawns (Trak, Draco, Maestro), and six (6) VP 7-day spawns (Druushk, Hoshkar, Nexona, Phara Dar, Silverwing, Xygoz) that are Class C only. Counting up the number of spawns per week, that's 22 spawns per week. The rotated spawns account for 16 of those 22, the last 6 are C-only. of the rotated spawns, 33% are R, 33% FFA, and 33% are C, 5.33 spawns per group. Class C guilds will get 5.33+6 spawns for THEMSELVES, untouchable by R unless they want to go class C as well. That is 51.5% of the spawns, dedicated to class C. Class R gets 5.33 spawns for themselves, which is 24.2% of the spawns. R and C (and anyone else) gets to fight over the other 24.2% of the spawns.

Class C, which makes up less than 20% of the server's population (TMO, according to Rogean, is less than 3% of the population, 20% is a massive overestimation of the hardcore guilds' numbers) will kill 50+% of the raid mobs on this server, and class R will kill 24-50% (assuming C guilds don't compete for FFA spawns, also a massive overestimation). Class R makes up more than 80% of the server's population (as Class R by definition is: 'everyone not in class C'), yet we will see at MOST roughly the same amount of mobs, likely closer to half as many, and we have to split that amongst more people.

[Ravager]

No it then becomes 3 guilds competing for potentially 8 mobs (class C + FFA), then 2 guilds competing for potentially 6 mobs, then 1 guild still potentially being left with 4 class C mobs to take 5 hours to kill...

The bag limit prevents class C competition on repops unless we get many more class C guilds.

You have VP to compete in. I'm so sorry that you can't clear all the world spawns before VP anymore.

[falkun]

The bag limit does not prevent class C competition. I'm sure you'll all be gunning for Trak when he's class C on a repop, it just means whoever wins Trak will not also be able to kill CT, or VS, or Talendor, or whatever 3rd target you'd go for after. It puts a limit on you winning the competition, it doesn't stop you all from racing for the same targets.

[Erati]

I'll be making a Class C guild once I hit 60.

No worries guys, you can all dump your alts and unwanted people into my new guild and we will clean up these left over raid targets so the casual scum won't be hovering around them.

any ideas for witty guild names?

[Hitpoint]

But Class C is "competition" because people wanted competition. Now you are worried about too much competition?

FE, TMO, and IB, who make up less than 20% of the population, will be splitting 50+% of the weekly spawns (1x 7-days and 2x 3-days, 6 VP mobs are C-only), not including repops and not including FFA. The other 80% of the population is splitting 23% of the weekly spawns, not including FFA. I don't think Class C has to worry about becoming "too full" anytime soon.

Why are you talking about this? Why are you doing any math at all about who gets what mobs? The problem is very clear and I've already explained it thoroughly enough that you and Ravager seem to be the only ones not understanding. We're on a 33%33%/33% rotation now. One of those sides does NOT get 33%, period. There's nothing else to discuss. That's it, this problem is very, VERY simple and you're making it so much more than that.

This doesn't have to do with VP, or variance or how many mobs you think is fair for us to have. This doesn't have to do with how large our population on the server is. Unless you're saying something relevant to this problem, stop polluting this thread with completely irrelevant arguments.

[YendorLootmonkey]

any ideas for witty guild names?

< Alts and Unwanted People >

[Geofizzle]

<Perennial EQ Losers without GMs Help>

Leader: Yendor
Officers: Chest, Bisch, Xosire

[Elements]

If my numbers are wrong, prove it.

Variance has been nerfed to +/-8hrs, and extended variance removed. Therefore every 7-day spawn will spawn on average every 7 days, and every 3-day spawn will spawn 2.33 times per 7-days (on average). There are nine (9) 7-day spawns in the 1:1:1 plan (Naggy, Vox, Inny, CT, Tal, Gore, Sev, Fay, VS), three (3) d-day spawns (Trak, Draco, Maestro), and six (6) VP 7-day spawns (Druushk, Hoshkar, Nexona, Phara Dar, Silverwing, Xygoz) that are Class C only. Counting up the number of spawns per week, that's 22 spawns per week. The rotated spawns account for 16 of those 22, the last 6 are C-only. of the rotated spawns, 33% are R, 33% FFA, and 33% are C, 5.33 spawns per group. Class C guilds will get 5.33+6 spawns for THEMSELVES, untouchable by R unless they want to go class C as well. That is 51.5% of the spawns, dedicated to class C. Class R gets 5.33 spawns for themselves, which is 24.2% of the spawns. R and C (and anyone else) gets to fight over the other 24.2% of the spawns.

Class C, which makes up less than 20% of the server's population (TMO, according to Rogean, is less than 3% of the population, 20% is a massive overestimation of the hardcore guilds' numbers) will kill 50+% of the raid mobs on this server, and class R will kill 24-50% (assuming C guilds don't compete for FFA spawns, also a massive overestimation). Class R makes up more than 80% of the server's population (as Class R by definition is: 'everyone not in class C'), yet we will see at MOST roughly the same amount of mobs, likely closer to half as many, and we have to split that amongst more people.

You are completely neglecting repops which is what this thread is all about. With 3-4 repops per month your numbers go out the window.

[Hitpoint]

You are completely neglecting repops which is what this thread is all about. With 3-4 repops per month your numbers go out the window.

He either forgot what the thread is about or he isn't reading it.

[goshozal]

prove it.

Strongly considering sig

[Pheer]

Strongly considering sig

prove that youre considering it

[falkun]

You are completely neglecting repops which is what this thread is all about. With 3-4 repops per month your numbers go out the window.

Repops are 18 mobs, 12 outside VP get rotated (4 for each category). There are three Class C guilds. Since each class C guild can kill two targets outside VP, unless C guilds voluntarily disregards their mobs for 6hrs, your category will kill a guaranteed 10 out of 18 mobs, 55%. Since that will still leave 2 mobs in the Class C bag (3x2-4=2), you can kill up to 12 out of 18 mobs, or 66.7% (2 of the FFA mobs). Class R is reserved 22.2% of the mobs (4/18), and can kill up to 8 (4R + 4FFA) mobs of the 18 respawned, for 44.4%. There is no situation where class R category (as a whole) can kill more mobs than the class C category. Every time I've done the math, its worked out to a minimum of 50-55% of the mobs for class C, and ~25% of the mobs for class R, with the rest FFA between C, R, and PUGs. For normal spawns above, and repops in this post.

[Babayaaga]

At some point there will be more guilds in class C and it will be a bit more competitive than it is now. I can see what you're saying, but by having things "left up" for a little while guarantees other up and coming guilds in both tiers opportunities at attempts. We've got some room for growth once again... it's a pretty amazing solution.

TBH... this is a really elegant system considering what it took to get here. That raid.php instant auto-updating page is genius. I don't care if it isn't classic... on some servers certainly, it should have been!

[baalzy]

Repops are 18 mobs, 12 outside VP get rotated (4 for each category). There are three Class C guilds. Since each class C guild can kill two targets outside VP, unless C guilds voluntarily disregards their mobs for 6hrs, your category will kill a guaranteed 10 out of 18 mobs, 55%. Since that will still leave 2 mobs in the Class C bag (3x2-4=2), you can kill up to 12 out of 18 mobs, or 66.7% (2 of the FFA mobs). Class R is reserved 22.2% of the mobs (4/18), and can kill up to 8 (4R + 4FFA) mobs of the 18 respawned, for 44.4%. There is no situation where class R category (as a whole) can kill more mobs than the class C category. Every time I've done the math, its worked out to a minimum of 50-55% of the mobs for class C, and ~25% of the mobs for class R, with the rest FFA between C, R, and PUGs. For normal spawns above, and repops in this post.

The problem they're complaining about is if 2 of the class cs each kill 2 FFA mobs, then there are 4 Class C mobs left and only 1 guild available to kill them.

If FFA included CT, Inny, VS and Trak all in 1 repop and ClassCs got all 4 of them, then only 2 out of the 4 remaining ClassC mobs will get killed (for now, once another guild joins it becomes moot as there will be enough class Cs to kill all 4 ffa and all 4 class c mobs). This means those 2 mobs will eventually go FFA and get killed by ClassR guilds.

Assuming it's any other combination for FFA mobs and it becomes less likely since they're going to be targeting whichever ones of those 4 they can touch first and then anything still up after that.

I can see their point and I would support removing the bag limit from Class C labeled mobs on repop (still leave the limit at 2 for FFA and Class R guilds).

[LizardNecro]

The problem they're complaining about is if 2 of the class cs each kill 2 FFA mobs, then there are 4 Class C mobs left and only 1 guild available to kill them.

Thus an incentive for a big class C guild to break into smaller, more competitive guilds.

[Daldaen]

Eh I see their point, however if the FFA mobs are so much more tasty pixel wise than the Class C mobs, that is their choice to favor Trak/VS over Fay/Gore. I'm not so sure removing the bag limit on class C mobs is the answer.

Perhaps make it such that you can kill any number of Class C mobs (0-4) but you cannot touch FFA mobs if you've already killed 2 Class C. As opposed to the current situation where you could kill the first 2 Class C to spawn and have to forego the next 2 Class C and all 4 FFA

It doesn't satisfy their "get every single Inny/CT/VS/Trak possible to sell more epic MQs" goal which all of their proposals tried to afford them. However it does allow for more competition among the competition mobs.

[Elements]

Thanks for being reasonable guys. The point is that if a guild nabs 2 FFA mobs they are done on a repop. They can no longer compete even amongst their own class which is silly for a class intended to be competitive. Perhaps leave the bag limit on class R/ FFA at 2 and remove the bag limit from class C on repops?

[baramur]

Repops are 18 mobs, 12 outside VP get rotated (4 for each category). There are three Class C guilds. Since each class C guild can kill two targets outside VP, unless C guilds voluntarily disregards their mobs for 6hrs, your category will kill a guaranteed 10 out of 18 mobs, 55%. Since that will still leave 2 mobs in the Class C bag (3x2-4=2), you can kill up to 12 out of 18 mobs, or 66.7% (2 of the FFA mobs). Class R is reserved 22.2% of the mobs (4/18), and can kill up to 8 (4R + 4FFA) mobs of the 18 respawned, for 44.4%. There is no situation where class R category (as a whole) can kill more mobs than the class C category. Every time I've done the math, its worked out to a minimum of 50-55% of the mobs for class C, and ~25% of the mobs for class R, with the rest FFA between C, R, and PUGs. For normal spawns above, and repops in this post.

Ok just make VP FFA and not Class C exclusive, and the results would be tmo/fe/ib will be the only guild killing there. Your using VP as your argument, well that was a perk and incentive to be class C not R. The point is FFA mobs should be just that FFA, no matter of bag limit. Class C mobs should always only be for class C, until 6 hours has passed putting them into FFA. There is no reason on a server repop, why any bag limit should be enforced. You already have a rotation enforced why the 2ndary condition. Repop should be on average 4 class c, 4 class r, and 4 ffa mobs. There is no reason TMO should not be allowed to destroy all 4 class c mobs, thats what class c wanted, and FFA mobs should be just that, free for anyone to kill regardless of guilds working together, etc.

[Daldaen]

Thanks for being reasonable guys. The point is that if a guild nabs 2 FFA mobs they are done on a repop. They can no longer compete even amongst their own class which is silly for a class intended to be competitive. Perhaps leave the bag limit on class R/ FFA at 2 and remove the bag limit from class C on repops?

Reason I wouldn't suggest that is it basically allows for one guild to get 12/18 of the spawns (class c x 4, FFA x 2, VP x 6). That would go against the purpose of the original restrictions I think?

Class C should be allowed to exceed the 2 bag limit within their class of mobs but be restricted from FFA mobs if they do so IMO.

[Hitpoint]

Well we keep using this example of 4 FFA mobs and 4 class C mobs. It might be because that's the example I used then I brought up the problem, or it might be because that's how yesterday was. But lets talk about a different example. What if enough mobs spawn late, and enough other mobs spawn early, that we get 6 or 8 class C mobs on a repop? It's unlikely, but possible. In the first example, class C can't kill any FFA mob or they lose a class C mob that is guaranteed them as per the rotation. In the latter example, there is no possible way for us to kill all 8 class C mobs.

Lets take it even further. Summer rolls around, and the server sees a huge dip in numbers. Now FE and IB's rosters have taken a hit, and they can't kill the harder class C mobs by themselves anymore. Or maybe they just choose to raid separately. Whatever the case, if there are 6 class C mobs on a repop we would automatically lose 2 of them from Class C.

My point is, however unlikely, we should strive for a system that does not allow these things to potentially happen. And we shouldn't be forced to split up just to make sure class C mobs get killed, although it is very fun.

Thank you all for keeping this discussion constructive so far.

[Erati]

after we experience a few more rounds of 'sim patch' repops I think the Class C guilds should have enough info to put together some observations in the Raid Discussion forum about what alterations to the bag limit mechanic they would like to see applied to their tier.

I see where you guys are coming from, and it seems some things functioned a little more 'clunky' than had attended however with a system like what was implemented really the only way to work out the kinks is by diving in and trying it out

id say that considering none of this was even a remote thought a month ago to where we are now with the P99 raid website, we have come a long way

[williestargell]

There are 8 mobs between Class C and FFA each repop day. 3 guilds to kill 6 of them (unless there's some future ruling that IB/FE can't act like a single guild inside VP and act like two separate guilds outside).

They get to pick which of them they want to go for first and that pretty much means the two left on the table are the least desirable of the 8 anyway. For example Gore was left up for last yesterday cause none of the C's really cares about Gore anyway. One of the mobs will be Maestro 2/3 of the time and there won't be any Class C tiers shed if they skip him. The bag limit has an extremely minimal effect on Class C guilds.

In addition, the bigger class R guilds are going to run into the bag limit just as often as TMO/FE/IB. Both Taken and BDA bag-limited and had to stop on day 1 when mobs were still up. Divinity will bag-limit pretty often too. Even some of the smaller guilds are going to bag limit occassionally.

It's no more restrictive to the C's than it is to many of the R's.

Class R guilds will also be more willing to compete for the FFA's with shorter variances and more assertive play nice rules so there's nothing to say that the Class C guilds are going to need more than 2 kills outside VP anyway.

[Hitpoint]

There are 8 mobs between Class C and FFA each repop day. 3 guilds to kill 6 of them (unless there's some future ruling that IB/FE can't act like a single guild inside VP and act like two separate guilds outside).

They get to pick which of them they want to go for first and that pretty much means the two left on the table are the least desirable of the 8 anyway. For example Gore was left up for last yesterday cause none of the C's really cares about Gore anyway. One of the mobs will be Maestro 2/3 of the time and there won't be any Class C tiers shed if they skip him. The bag limit has an extremely minimal effect on Class C guilds.

In addition, the bigger class R guilds are going to run into the bag limit just as often as TMO/FE/IB. Both Taken and BDA bag-limited and had to stop on day 1 when mobs were still up. Divinity will bag-limit pretty often too. Even some of the smaller guilds are going to bag limit occassionally.

It's no more restrictive to the C's than it is to many of the R's.

Class R guilds will also be more willing to compete for the FFA's with shorter variances and more assertive play nice rules so there's nothing to say that the Class C guilds are going to need more than 2 kills outside VP anyway.

Yes Class R will cap just as often. But the entirety of Class R won't be losing guaranteed Class R mobs because of it, another class R guild will move in instead. That's the main point that I'm trying to get at here.

[falkun]

But you are choosing to relinquish those mobs, likely because FFA mobs are tastier. You are trading competition within your own tier (going after C-mobs only) for competition amongst the entire server (FFA). If anything, you've likely increased competition by going for FFA mobs over C mobs. If C is worried about losing C mobs to R guilds, then kill your C mobs. FFA mobs are for everyone to compete over, they aren't yours by default. If you decide to go after them first, that's a choice you'll now have to live with.

[falkun]

If you remove the bag limits within C, then C will just go after FFA mobs before attempting C mobs. This is exemplified by the repops over the last two years where TMO would go after VP only after all the non-VP mobs were downed.

[Splorf22]

But you are choosing to relinquish those mobs, likely because FFA mobs are tastier. You are trading competition within your own tier (going after C-mobs only) for competition amongst the entire server (FFA). If anything, you've likely increased competition by going for FFA mobs over C mobs. If C is worried about losing C mobs to R guilds, then kill your C mobs. FFA mobs are for everyone to compete over, they aren't yours by default. If you decide to go after them first, that's a choice you'll now have to live with.

I think this is a pretty reasonable argument in the end, although I would agree with Hitpoint that it isn't really what the Class C guilds thought they were getting into (not that they agreed to anything in the end anyway).

Regardless, I somehow feel like the Ploktor/Loraen plan (1x FFA repop per week that doesn't affect timers, full GM enforced rotation on all 'normal' spawns) was just better. We're already seeing poopsocking and people 'competing' in the R tiers and rotating in the C tiers. I suppose we can just give this a few months and see how it goes and maybe change things up later.

[Elements]

If you remove the bag limits within C, then C will just go after FFA mobs before attempting C mobs. This is exemplified by the repops over the last two years where TMO would go after VP only after all the non-VP mobs were downed.

You think if higher priority targets are C and lower are FFA on repops that people are just going to let the C sit there while they go for FFA? no. there is still competition in C. The issue is that if we chose to compete in FFA then the class C mobs are no loner class C they are defaulted to R which is not a 33/33/33 system as was intended by the plan. Having a bag limit within class C is silly.

[Elements]

Even once we get more guilds in class C the bag limit remains silly. We are in class C to compete not take 2 mobs and sit out watching the other guys in class C casually roam around slaying dragons.

[Alenon]

Even once we get more guilds in class C the bag limit remains silly. We are in class C to compete not take 2 mobs and sit out watching the other guys in class C casually roam around slaying dragons.

sooo go to vp before other class c guilds and get more vp loots?

[Erati]

well it should be noted that this problem only arises because of a mechanic that we have never really fully implemented here ( sim patch repops on reg basis)

things need to work themselves out, if this continues to be a reoccurring theme then there no reason the Class C guilds write up a proposal to amend the way bag limits work for them

Repops are literally brand new to this server, before big R rubber stamped doing them in the current raid system, I think we got a server reset/repop maybe 3-4 times over the course of a calendar YEAR?

So while its not a perfect system, it is a new system. Lets see what happens the next couple times repops happen and more Mob 'Scenarios' occur

then we can further develop a proper solution. Simply saying Tier C mobs or guilds should not have a bag limit on repop is looking at too small of sample size to determine that is the proper way to fix the problem

[Hitpoint]

But you are choosing to relinquish those mobs, likely because FFA mobs are tastier. You are trading competition within your own tier (going after C-mobs only) for competition amongst the entire server (FFA). If anything, you've likely increased competition by going for FFA mobs over C mobs. If C is worried about losing C mobs to R guilds, then kill your C mobs. FFA mobs are for everyone to compete over, they aren't yours by default. If you decide to go after them first, that's a choice you'll now have to live with.


If you remove the bag limits within C, then C will just go after FFA mobs before attempting C mobs. This is exemplified by the repops over the last two years where TMO would go after VP only after all the non-VP mobs were downed.

Yes all of this is true. But this system that we agreed to was designed to allow it. I'm not say going for FFA mobs first on a repop is morally right or whatever, because this isn't about that. 33/33/33 was the deal that was made, period. If you disagree with us getting 33% from class C and then potentially another 33% from FFA, then you simply have a problem with the way the plan was written. Nothing else is relevant to this discussion.

[falkun]

The plan as implemented has always had the 2-mob bag limit. Saying its strictly 33/33/33 is ignoring the rules (which haven't changed since original implementation btw). That's ignoring the rules that VP is excluded (from bag limits and outside the 1:1:1 split) and that there's a two mob limit.

[Hitpoint]

The plan as implemented has always had the 2-mob bag limit. Saying its strictly 33/33/33 is ignoring the rules (which haven't changed since original implementation btw). That's ignoring the rules that VP is excluded (from bag limits and outside the 1:1:1 split) and that there's a two mob limit.

Then it isn't 33/33/33 at all, and never has been. Only one side is ever losing mobs here, and only one side is ever gaining. We've been arguing against the bag limit from the start, even class R guilds. It simply doesn't make sense for this plan.

[falkun]

Except its been proven that virtually all C's "losses" are made up by the additional repops. The only thing C is "losing" is the ability to stop R guilds from killing dragons. That's shadenfreude.

[Hitpoint]

Except its been proven that virtually all C's "losses" are made up by the additional repops. The only thing C is "losing" is the ability to stop R guilds from killing dragons. That's shadenfreude.

They aren't additional repops when the regular rotation applies to them. They are mobs we would have killed normally, that we now cannot kill because they happened to spawn on a repop.

[falkun]

Spawns per week (from earlier math): 22
Spawns per repop (from earlier math): 18
2-4 repops per month, 4.3 weeks per month.
~94 regular spawns per month, ~54 repop spawns per month, 148 spawns per month.
~44 VP spawns per month (4.3*6+6*3)
~104 spawns to rotate per month, ~35 spawns per class per month.

So R is guaranteed 35 spawns per month, and has a shot at another 35 FFA spawns. Before this raid agreement, there were approximately 94 spawns per month (same regular, no repops). Taking out R's 35 spawns, there are still 113 spawns C can go for, an increase of 19 spawns from C's previous 94. Now saying that C can only kill 2*(# of C guilds) during repops, that's still 6 mobs outside VP per repop, 6 mobs inside VP per repop, 35 spawns per month for C, and 35 spawns per month for FFA. Assuming an average of 3 repops per month, that's still 106 mobs per month that C can compete for, 12 mobs more than the 94 per month they had before the new raid rules.

Please tell me, where is C "losing" mobs compared to before these new raid rules?

[falkun]

They aren't additional repops when the regular rotation applies to them. They are mobs we would have killed normally, that we now cannot kill because they happened to spawn on a repop.

Except these mobs wouldn't exist without the new raid rules. You wouldn't normally kill them because they wouldn't be there. The additional repops came with the new raid rules.

[Hitpoint]

Please tell me, where is C "losing" mobs compared to before these new raid rules?

Didn't look at your math, there's no need. We aren't comparing to "before," we are looking at the situation right now, within the new rules. I don't think I've ever once compared this to anything pre-agreement. The fact is that right now, with the way the rules are implemented, we potentially lose mobs from our 33% cut. And it's not even a HUGE deal. It just never has to be the case, ever. There are EASY fixes to this.

[Bruman]

You never had a 33% cut. You had a 33% cut, plus the chance at FFA mobs, with a bag limit of 2 on repop days.

The bag limit is to force sharing on the new server repop mobs. Without the bag limit, it's very unlikely Rogean would've ever agreed to all the new server repop mobs in the first place.

[Hitpoint]

You never had a 33% cut. You had a 33% cut, plus the chance at FFA mobs, with a bag limit of 2 on repop days.

The bag limit is to force sharing on the new server repop mobs. Without the bag limit, it's very unlikely Rogean would've ever agreed to all the new server repop mobs in the first place.

I don't know what you're trying to say in the first two sentences. I mean...obviously. We can go lower than 33% with this plan, that shouldn't be the case.

Why are we sharing on a repop? This is a rotation, we shouldn't be forced to share rotated mobs ever. That's why we have a rotation.

We don't need to remove the bag limit, we can raise it by 1 and that would mitigate this situation almost completely. We can keep it at 2 (maybe even 1?) and make it only apply to FFA mobs.

[Bruman]

For what it's worth, I think the bag limit as it stands is silly when C-mobs are left up with no guild able to kill them until a timer ticks down. I think the situation Rogean is trying to avoid though is having the C-guilds target FFA mobs first, then afterwards stroll to the C mobs, then later VP.

Maybe he'd be open to something like not having a bag limit on C-mobs during repop as long as VP is down first, along with C-guilds not engaging FFA until the C-mobs are all dead. That avoids the loophole.

Granted, the current rule also makes it more enticing to move to C-class (free mobs left up? That's tempting.), which is also a goal of the current rule set.

[Vandy]

I'm mad because there are now more raid bosses spawning on P99 than ever before and I don't get them all. You lose nothing, I'm pretty sure that Rogean said simulated repops and variance reductions would only happen with a raid agreement. So we could go back to before and there would be less raid bosses(no repops and extended variance). So you have chance at more NPCs than ever before, how are you still upset?

[Hitpoint]

I'm mad because there are now more raid bosses spawning on P99 than ever before and I don't get them all. You lose nothing, I'm pretty sure that Rogean said simulated repops and variance reductions would only happen with a raid agreement. So we could go back to before and there would be less raid bosses(no repops and extended variance). So you have chance at more NPCs than ever before, how are you still upset?

Because through an oversight, the agreement *can* take more mobs from us than it should. I just want this to be exactly what we agreed to. It doesn't matter if you or someone else feels we aren't entitled to it. It's no secret that our leaders fought against the 1/1/1 plan, it was forced on us anyway. I personally had no problem with it from the start, the only thing I wanted changed was the bag limit moving up to 3. For whatever reason this wasn't implemented. Now, not only are we part of a plan that we didn't want to accept, but we're also getting access to less mobs than we thought we would, on a rotation that we didn't even want. I think a reasonable person could be "upset" about this purely on principal.

[Erati]

Because through an oversight, the agreement *can* take more mobs from us than it should. I just want this to be exactly what we agreed to. It doesn't matter if you or someone else feels we aren't entitled to it. It's no secret that our leaders fought against the 1/1/1 plan, it was forced on us anyway. I personally had no problem with it from the start, the only thing I wanted changed was the bag limit moving up to 3. For whatever reason this wasn't implemented. Now, not only are we part of a plan that we didn't want to accept, but we're also getting access to less mobs than we thought we would, on a rotation that we didn't even want. I think a reasonable person could be "upset" about this purely on principal.

again, reread my comments ( which you probably have, though they are not with flashy "You Mad" gifs)

Write up what solutions would fix what ails Tier C on repops and it can get worked out with the brain trust. HOWEVER give this a little bit of time. Simply saying we have a huge problem with how things are working after 1 Sim repop is not a way to correct things. We need a larger sample size so the real problem can easily be explained, as I am sure you guys think you 'know' how to fix it, but I would wager after another repop or two you will REALLY know a good way to fix it.

The 33% split for Tier C mobs is obv not going to always be the case on a REPOP with a bag limit. Saying "This isn't what we signed up for, we were told 33%" is incorrect. You still get 33% on normal spawns and an extra 33% of FFA normal spawns that you will have the advantage on, and of course none of those figures include VP.

I think what we have going here is a wonderful thing, as for the first time since I have been here ( as you can see my name was registered back in 2009) I experienced what I would call a 'classic' EQ raid boss encounter. I imagine that the people that are leveling up right now have something to finally look forward to when they hit lvl 50+. Previously the entire time you leveled up all you heard was "Enjoy things now bc once you start to raid blah blah etc etc".

[Pan]

O - M - G. These are NOT anyone's MoBs. We're all here at the pleasure of those whose hands are on the power cords of the servers.

You are a damned guest here. Be grateful like the rest of us try to be. Or go play somewhere else - or, better, take the time to set up the ideal simulator and pull people away from p99.

[Hitpoint]

again, reread my comments ( which you probably have, though they are not with flashy "You Mad" gifs)

Write up what solutions would fix what ails Tier C on repops and it can get worked out with the brain trust. HOWEVER give this a little bit of time. Simply saying we have a huge problem with how things are working after 1 Sim repop is not a way to correct things. We need a larger sample size so the real problem can easily be explained, as I am sure you guys think you 'know' how to fix it, but I would wager after another repop or two you will REALLY know a good way to fix it.

The 33% split for Tier C mobs is obv not going to always be the case on a REPOP with a bag limit. Saying "This isn't what we signed up for, we were told 33%" is incorrect. You still get 33% on normal spawns and an extra 33% of FFA normal spawns that you will have the advantage on, and of course none of those figures include VP.

I think what we have going here is a wonderful thing, as for the first time since I have been here ( as you can see my name was registered back in 2009) I experienced what I would call a 'classic' EQ raid boss encounter. I imagine that the people that are leveling up right now have something to finally look forward to when they hit lvl 50+. Previously the entire time you leveled up all you heard was "Enjoy things now bc once you start to raid blah blah etc etc".

I've posted my solutions somewhere in these pages, and a few others have posted reasonable ones also. I think bag limit of 3, bag limit of 1 or 2 only applying to FFA mobs are among those.

I'll give it time, as long as we can take a look at it in the future and people aren't like, "no this is what we agreed on it can't be changed." I do believe that the possibility to lose class C mobs on repop is just a mistake, and not intentional, and for this reason I can't fully agree with your third paragraph. I basically agree with everything else that you said though.

Edit to the guy above me: That is not helpful. We are talking about an agreement that was made where certain guilds were put on a rotation. And that agreement actually does guarantee mobs to them. Those are very profound thoughts that you have though. (Not really.) I've tried to be civil in this discussion so far.

[Erati]

right putting solutions out here in Server chat for trolls to feed on is not how you gain any traction on changing the raid scene

I would ( after the next repop or so) get your guild leaders who can post in those forums write something up and Rogean and co will look at it more closely

[Hitpoint]

right putting solutions out here in Server chat for trolls to feed on is not how you gain any traction on changing the raid scene

I would ( after the next repop or so) get your guild leaders who can post in those forums write something up and Rogean and co will look at it more closely

Yea we have had discussions about it. I hope something is being done behind the scenes but I don't know for sure. Didn't think it would hurt to get everyone else's take on it.

There have been surprisingly few trolls thus far, but I did think a GM would respond on day 1.

[slappytwotoes]

But you are choosing to relinquish those mobs, likely because FFA mobs are tastier. You are trading competition within your own tier (going after C-mobs only) for competition amongst the entire server (FFA). If anything, you've likely increased competition by going for FFA mobs over C mobs. If C is worried about losing C mobs to R guilds, then kill your C mobs. FFA mobs are for everyone to compete over, they aren't yours by default. If you decide to go after them first, that's a choice you'll now have to live with.

^ this argument makes me think it was intentional by Rogean.

Even if not, he wanted BDA to move to Tier-C from the beginning and I'll bet he keeps it this way to provide an incentive for at least one R guild to move up to C shortly.

Regardless, everything you said Hitpoint makes a lot of sense and should at least be considered.

[falkun]

You still haven't shown how C guilds "lose mobs every repop". Sure, you can target FFA targets over C targets, but you still get your guaranteed 4 (C) + 6 (VP) mobs. Your C mobs are not touched unless you gorge on FFA mobs, but then you just trade one mob for another, which you actively choose to do.

The bag limit, and its consequences, are intentional.

[baramur]

So your not considering vp is c class exclusive because that is currently the only guilds that can even down those mobs. They worked to get keys, thus putting in the time to allow them to kill in vp. You could make vp an r rotation and the end result would be the mobs would go to ffa status. It is more a reward for those that keyed themselves to raid, allowing c class mo s to be killed by r class, because c class guild is capped at two defeats the whole premise of equal chance between r class and c class. This inheritently gives r class guilds more then the 1/1/1 rotation.

[YendorLootmonkey]

I think its funny that this ignorant hitpoint guy thinks any mobs are his.

You chose class C.

Follow the rules and quit crying like a baby about other guilds now being able to attempt to kill dragons you selfish fucking cunt.

FE and TMO tears abound.

Still talking about competition. Why don't you go ahead and remove that from your vocabulary.

THE COMPETITIVE GUILDS CAREBEAR'D IT UP IN THE "COMPETITION ZONE" (Veeshan's Peak)
They split up and killed some mobs separate but most of the dragons they killed together as an alliance and split the loot.

Tell us more about why VP mobs should be exclusive to Class Carebear?

http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/George-Costanza-Eating-Popcorn.gif

[Pheer]

You guys are trying really hard to get this moved into RnF

[LizardNecro]

Hitpoint, I haven't heard an answer to why class C guilds can't split into smaller, more competitive guilds. This would let class C as a whole get all FFA mobs (assuming superior mobilization) and all class C mobs (by default). You'd get the 66% of mobs.

[Tycko]

It is amusing guilds screaming competition the entire time share vp mobs on pop.

[Hitpoint]

You still haven't shown how C guilds "lose mobs every repop". Sure, you can target FFA targets over C targets, but you still get your guaranteed 4 (C) + 6 (VP) mobs. Your C mobs are not touched unless you gorge on FFA mobs, but then you just trade one mob for another, which you actively choose to do.

The bag limit, and its consequences, are intentional.

Okay I'll show right now how class C can lose mobs every repop, even though I've done this already in this same thread. What if for one repop there are 7 Class C mobs, then class C loses one. What if for one repop, we have 5 class C mobs and FE/IB chooses to raid together. Then Class C loses one. Both of these are extreme examples, but they assume that we don't go for any FFA mobs at all, and we should be able to. Had there not been a repop, and these mobs spawned normally we would surely be able to contest them. Repops only hurt us with regards to the rotation.

[Hitpoint]

Hitpoint, I haven't heard an answer to why class C guilds can't split into smaller, more competitive guilds. This would let class C as a whole get all FFA mobs (assuming superior mobilization) and all class C mobs (by default). You'd get the 66% of mobs.

Because that would be awful. What if I was to tell you that in order for you to get your mobs on a rotation, you had to split up your guild? As in, remove half of your guild so that they can make another one. That's absurd. Not to mention the fact that we're basically already doing that with FE/IB. And yes 66% should be possible under the current system.

Metallikus, grats on being the first person ever added to my ignore list. I've done this because you are a disgusting, hateful troll. And I've never seen you post anything even remotely intelligent. I encourage anyone to check his post history for some good entertainment.

[Pheer]

It is amusing guilds screaming competition the entire time share vp mobs on pop.

I know everyone is salty that FE/IB and TMO didnt get eachother suspended immediately but its not that hard to understand why it was done that way

Desync issues + the high probability of training eachother unintentionally made it the best option for a full repop situation imo

[YendorLootmonkey]

I know everyone is salty that FE/IB and TMO didnt get eachother suspended immediately but its not that hard to understand why it was done that way

Desync issues + the high probability of training eachother unintentionally made it the best option for a full repop situation imo

We're watching. After what was said by the more competitive guilds during the raid rules discussions, we better see EXTREME CUTTHROAT COMPETITION next time. Just the way you guys want, remember?

[Elements]

If Class C had two more guilds in it, would u still bitch about poor little class C losing mobs? What if CLass C had four more guilds? Then poor class C would never lose a mob due to bag limit.

I think you would still bitch. You guys are never satisfied. You only want the bag limit to increase, so that your individual guild gets more mobs. It has nothing to do with class C guilds leaving mobs up. Those mobs will go to another guild (class R, oh no we let class R guilds get a mob, oh no). Just like they would if it were another class C guild getting it.

Fact is, it was never about anything other than you and who you represent wanting more mobs and loot for your guild while denying those mobs and loot from casual guilds.

I'd still say there is something wrong because if a guild takes 2 FFA mobs on a repp then they are all of a sudden banned from competing for the class C (competitive) mobs. Its stupid. It doesn't matter how many class C guilds there are. There should be no bag limit on class C mobs.

[baramur]

What amuses me is the raid scene was supposed to divided into 33 percent c-class, 33 percent r-class and 33 percent ffa. But, under the current raid rules this does not exist, making the repop rules awed. Even r-classes big push was equal mob chances by playstyle not guild. By making a bag limit, you have not only made r-class a rotating class you have made it impossible for c-class to compete besides vp. Ok tmo got trak and inny, lets lol about because we know they cant engage any other c-class mobs. The point is, why should any mob labeled c-class on the rotation be open to r-class on respawns. That does not represent a 1/1/1 system. It is flawed, repops should merely be keep your class mobs, race for all the ffa mobs.

[lazcar]

What amuses me is the raid scene was supposed to divided into 33 percent c-class, 33 percent r-class and 33 percent ffa. But, under the current raid rules this does not exist, making the repop rules awed. Even r-classes big push was equal mob chances by playstyle not guild. By making a bag limit, you have not only made r-class a rotating class you have made it impossible for c-class to compete besides vp. Ok tmo got trak and inny, lets lol about because we know they cant engage any other c-class mobs. The point is, why should any mob labeled c-class on the rotation be open to r-class on respawns. That does not represent a 1/1/1 system. It is flawed, repops should merely be keep your class mobs, race for all the ffa mobs.

It seems to be working perfectly.. The class c guilds must choose what to kill instead of just slaughtering everything. The proposal was not 66/33 it was 1/1/1... If you want to kill the mobs given to your class then don't kill the FFA ones. That is very simple. Also, repops are a bonus. There is no bag limit for normal spawns.

Tldr wamp more about pixels.

[baramur]

Im confused tell me again why class-r can kill ffa mobs with no penalty to their rotation system yet if a class c kills a ffa mob on repop it completely alters class-c mobs. The easy fix would nust put a 1 mob ffa bag limit and let class-c compete on all class c mobs during repop. There is no logical reason tmo or fe should not be allowed to kill 4 class-c mobs on a respawn, this is what class-c wanted. Why should it matter to class-r how many class-c mobs are killed by a particular guild. All this does is FORCE class c to rotate class c mobs on repop, which is exactly opposite of what class-c is supposed to be. Make repop 1 FFA BAG LIMIT, and you solve both sides issues.

[baramur]

He wants 33% gifted hand wrapped to his class.

He wants to compete 33% against lesser guilds.

and he wants to rotate / carebear coalition and split mobs and split loots in VP (an extra 6 dragons set aside gift wrapped to them with the best loot on the server exclusively theirs).

and then he wants to bitch about it how its not fair to class C and they don't get enough loot and are not able to dominate more loot from them darn casuals who have to somehow split their class R mobs by 9 guilds with 2 spawn lockouts.

wah

I do t say this often, but luckily for me you qualify. You are a idiot. Nowhere did i say any of that. I have a solution for you, first, learn to comprehend. Second, any guild can compete in vp, all they have to do is move to c-class it is a simple choice, but the premise behind c-class was that any c-class guild could engage any c-class mob at any time, if you would shut the hell up and listen, you would understand that is not the case. C-class is a gm forced rotation, which is exactly opposite of what it was intended to be. You all bitched equality, but how well you are now preaching a different story, congrats you made master hypocrit status. And before you go calling me out, yoi shoukd, know I do not even raid on p99, but its funny to listen to r-class defend the bag limit on repop, when is does fundamentally what they kept fighting to prevent. You cannot fight for a system to create an equal playstyle raid scene, that fits both playstyles, then constrict the rules, thus making it only one playstyle on repops. If you cannot grasp this, that is ok, I do nkt expect you to. Think narrowminded and keep your tunnel vision, it has gotten yoh this far. Oh and please do add another reply filled with colorful adverbs.

[lazcar]

Im confused tell me again why class-r can kill ffa mobs with no penalty to their rotation system yet if a class c kills a ffa mob on repop it completely alters class-c mobs. The easy fix would nust put a 1 mob ffa bag limit and let class-c compete on all class c mobs during repop. There is no logical reason tmo or fe should not be allowed to kill 4 class-c mobs on a respawn, this is what class-c wanted. Why should it matter to class-r how many class-c mobs are killed by a particular guild. All this does is FORCE class c to rotate class c mobs on repop, which is exactly opposite of what class-c is supposed to be. Make repop 1 FFA BAG LIMIT, and you solve both sides issues.

Negotiations were last week bra. Should have been more reasonable during them.

[hatelore]

lol

[hatelore]

I do t say this often, but luckily for me you qualify. You are a idiot. Nowhere did i say any of that. I have a solution for you, first, learn to comprehend. Second, any guild can compete in vp, all they have to do is move to c-class it is a simple choice, but the premise behind c-class was that any c-class guild could engage any c-class mob at any time, if you would shut the hell up and listen, you would understand that is not the case. C-class is a gm forced rotation, which is exactly opposite of what it was intended to be. You all bitched equality, but how well you are now preaching a different story, congrats you made master hypocrit status. And before you go calling me out, yoi shoukd, know I do not even raid on p99, but its funny to listen to r-class defend the bag limit on repop, when is does fundamentally what they kept fighting to prevent. You cannot fight for a system to create an equal playstyle raid scene, that fits both playstyles, then constrict the rules, thus making it only one playstyle on repops. If you cannot grasp this, that is ok, I do nkt expect you to. Think narrowminded and keep your tunnel vision, it has gotten yoh this far. Oh and please do add another reply filled with colorful adverbs.

I am pretty sure this message would look good framed in a plaque or something, loll. Thats epic writing right there.

[goshozal]

Class R can compete for any mob outside of VP.

Not going after the class C mobs is their choice.

[goshozal]

Exactly. Class R guilds can go after whatever they want. They're choosing not to compete for more pixels, because they're sticking to the freebies that class C cannot touch.

So... if R can go for C mobs but choose not to, why should C pay the penalty? Are the R guilds trying to... deny us mobs?

Where have I heard that accusation before?

[skorge]

after reading a couple pages all i can think to myself is this:

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view2/2077743/ogre-screaming-nerds-o.gif (http://gifsoup.com/view/2077743/ogre-screaming-nerds.html) GIFSoup (http://gifsoup.com)

[lazcar]

Exactly. Class R guilds can go after whatever they want. They're choosing not to compete for more pixels, because they're sticking to the freebies that class C cannot touch.

So... if R can go for C mobs but choose not to, why should C pay the penalty? Are the R guilds trying to... deny us mobs?

Where have I heard that accusation before?

You are not being denied anything. Class r guilds are allowed the same number of mobs on repop class c. But wait!!!! They also get vp. Lol. Lol. Deal with it.

[Troubled]

3 C guilds atm, allowed 6 targets outside VP. 6 out of 11, provided those 6 are C or FFA. What's the problem? 6 mobs + VP for 3 guilds. 5 mobs left for the rest of the server if you beat R guilds to the FFA targets. It seems fine. You don't have to take every single target that is available, every single time. You are getting the lion's share. 12 of 17. 70?ish%. Is my logic flawed or is this right?

[lazcar]

3 C guilds atm, allowed 6 targets outside VP. 6 out of 11, provided those 6 are C or FFA. What's the problem? 6 mobs + VP for 3 guilds. 5 mobs left for the rest of the server if you beat R guilds to the FFA targets. It seems fine. You don't have to take every single target that is available, every single time. You are getting the lion's share. 12 of 17. 70?ish%. Is my logic flawed or is this right?

No your logic is perfect, tmo/fe/ib that are complaining are just greedy.

[baramur]

3 C guilds atm, allowed 6 targets outside VP. 6 out of 11, provided those 6 are C or FFA. What's the problem? 6 mobs + VP for 3 guilds. 5 mobs left for the rest of the server if you beat R guilds to the FFA targets. It seems fine. You don't have to take every single target that is available, every single time. You are getting the lion's share. 12 of 17. 70?ish%. Is my logic flawed or is this right?

The issue is any class-c guild should be able to compete for any class-c mob, not restricted. There should never be a circumstance where Class-C mobs are not able to be engaged by Class-c period. The idea of the 2 classes was to divide the mobs equally among PLAY STYLES not GUILDS, yet you are justifying more mobs for R-Class on respawn because of the number of guilds. The whole point of Class-Competition was that any class-c mob would be in danger of being taken at any time, whether it be another class-c or a class-r guild. But FFA mobs are not really FFA if they take away a Class-C ability to attack a Class-c mob due to lockout. That CONTRADICTS the even playing field for Class-R and Class-C, which oddly the even share of mobs per class style is what Class-R kept preaching in raid negotiations. I never heard mention during the negotions that class-c should ever be restricted for killing class-c mobs, after all Class-R never is. You keep falling back to vp as being mobs handed to class-c, ok make them FFA all the time. See what the result would be. It is pointless arguing its simple math, the 2-mob cap makes FFA mobs not FFA for class-c cause it makes them trade on their 1/1/1 mob for a ffa, where it does not make Class-R, give up a Class-r mob to class-c, in order to kill a FFA. This would basically mean that Class-R is given more open world mobs, because they do not wish to compete in vp?

[Troubled]

The issue is any class-c guild should be able to compete for any class-c mob, not restricted. There should never be a circumstance where Class-C mobs are not able to be engaged by Class-c period. The idea of the 2 classes was to divide the mobs equally among PLAY STYLES not GUILDS, yet you are justifying more mobs for R-Class on respawn because of the number of guilds. The whole point of Class-Competition was that any class-c mob would be in danger of being taken at any time, whether it be another class-c or a class-r guild. But FFA mobs are not really FFA if they take away a Class-C ability to attack a Class-c mob due to lockout. That CONTRADICTS the even playing field for Class-R and Class-C, which oddly the even share of mobs per class style is what Class-R kept preaching in raid negotiations. I never heard mention during the negotions that class-c should ever be restricted for killing class-c mobs, after all Class-R never is. You keep falling back to vp as being mobs handed to class-c, ok make them FFA all the time. See what the result would be. It is pointless arguing its simple math, the 2-mob cap makes FFA mobs not FFA for class-c cause it makes them trade on their 1/1/1 mob for a ffa, where it does not make Class-R, give up a Class-r mob to class-c, in order to kill a FFA. This would basically mean that Class-R is given more open world mobs, because they do not wish to compete in vp?

The problem with removing a bag limit on C class though, while I agree in principle, is in practice then FFA mobs will be taken out first with an agreement made in C to not touch C mobs until FFA mobs are dead, imo. Why do I think that? You did it for VP on this spawn. Why didn't anyone enter VP until good mobs outside VP were dead? The bag limit makes you weigh your decisions more heavily, while still getting the majority of the server's kills within the class C guilds.

[Pheer]

CLass C greedily took the Trakanon and VS from FFA pool and still had Inny, Sev, Fay, and Gore from class C. AS IT WAS THIER CHOICE TO DO SO. Then you went to VP and split 6 dragons that no one else could touch.

wat

Factoring in VP dragons to some kind of equality arguement is kind of dumb because only one of the "class R" guilds really has any significant amount of keys in the first place. Maybe after a few more months of class R guilds getting some trak kills in you could try revisiting that complaint.

Its unbelievable how angry people are that VP went smoothly and had 0 drama involved though. Im sorry that you guys were waiting anxiously to read/post/popcorn mode when the shit hit the fan but it never did.

[Pheer]

speaking of play styles and contradictions.

FE and IB and TMO came to agreement to not compete against each other in class C - camped out at different mobs to take down the most efficiently in order to ONLY compete against those guilds unwilling to compete (class R).

TMO and IB did not even show a raid force in the zone for trakanon. FE competed against BDA.

TMO and FE did not even show a raid force in the zone for severilous. IB got that uncontested.

IB and FE did not show a raid force in the zone for faydedar. TMO got that uncontested.

COuld go on and on about your agreements to NOT compete outside of VP, and then there is the total collusion to NOT compete in VP as well. Carebear stare: Hoshkar and Phara Dar taken out by combined raid force of FE/IB/TMO. The other mobs split up with no competition at all.

Tell us more about about how CONTRADICTORY your PLAYSTYLES are in comparison to class R rotating their 33% mobs?

So you were angry when "class c" guilds couldnt play nice together when the "class r" guilds were getting next to 0 mobs, and now that class c guilds played nice together AND class R guilds got mobs you're even angrier.

How does that make any sense at all?

[chu]

im sorry to interupt i just want to know what all ur definition of "uncontested" is in this context

[Clark]

im sorry to interupt i just want to know what all ur definition of "uncontested" is in this context

:cool:

[Fysts]

Hey fellas, I very seldom take the time to jump into such discussions, but as I read this i would try to confer a little logic to the situation. Anyone who does not know me, I am fysts leader of Avatars of Discord. We are a Class-NR guild, as in Not Raiding. I am going to take a minute to break down what i perceive and please ask for responses of logic as I have zero prejudice in the matter.

Firstly I will point out Mob classifications and how i perceive them looking in from an outsider and maybe one day future raid leader.

1) Class-C. This is Competition spawn. Any guild/guilds may engage these mobs at any given time, with the restriction that if you kill this mob, you will move to Class-C

2) Class-R This is Rotation Set-up from my understanding with Class-R guilds.

3) Class-FFA This is Same as competition, except you can kill this mob and stay in your current Class.

So my logic would be this. Any Class-C guild should be entitled to kill any Class-C mob at any point in time. This should include respawns as its an open competition class, now if guilds want to work out deals, this should be acceptable, but known that another class-c guild does not have to honor it, or any class-r guild could kill said mob and move to class-c. I personally do not believe there should be any lockouts on these mobs, as it forces guilds to prioritize, not by mob count but by losing another mob to outmobilization.

Class-R is set to rotation, so they can freely engage any FFA mob without consequence because they know their mob will be saved for them. Therefore it creates no panic to rush to their held rotation mob, giving them the ability to mobilize for FFA targets. This in itself is a huge advantage as Class-C could lose their mob at any time they mobilize for a FFA mob.

Class-FFA can be engaged by any class, or any guild not belonging to a class so its the real competition set of mobs. I saw one suggestion to make a bag limit on Class-FFA to 1 mob on respawn. I personally feel this is the most logical, as it keeps a guild from trying to monopolize FFA targets. What it seems to me is Class-R is asking that Class-C be penalized for attempting to race for FFA targets, and forcing them to give up Class-C mobs if they do.

I realize you are saying Class-C will just work together and go for FFA mobs first, but as I pointed out the whole point of having FFA is to allow all Classes to compete on them, without penalty to their class. But in this raid rules current state, this is infact false. It leads to Class-C respawns not being 100 percent open to all Guilds, which is what the class-c mobs in my interpretation is suppose to be.

In conclusion I guess my logic to it is Class-C mobs should be able to be engaged and killed by any guild on the server, at any given time, regardless of what a guild has killed. This to me would represent Class-C mobs inherent properties. Under the current system a class-c mob could infact be off limits to all class-c guilds except 1 or even none, thus diminishing its anyone can kill quality.

I am confused why Rogean chose to force Class-c to be lockouted of their own class of mobs, but maybe it was just an oversight. But listening to both sides I believe both have valid arguments, but i think the solution is in capping the FFA mobs on respawn, and not the class-c competition mobs.

[Daldaen]

So you were angry when "class c" guilds couldnt play nice together when the "class r" guilds were getting next to 0 mobs, and now that class c guilds played nice together AND class R guilds got mobs you're even angrier.

How does that make any sense at all?

Don't think he is angrier, but you do understand his point yes?

During the discussions, your guildmates and others who are guilder under Class C guild tags tried to justify their stance by stating "competition is classic, you had to wake up at this sort of hour and log on to a batphones message to slay dragons, if you can't or aren't willing to do that or track 24/7 you shouldn't get dragons".

Then when it changes you go and do exactly what the casual guilds would do. Come to agreements and rotate. Which is great... But it makes it seem like your original reasoning for your stance was merely a facade and the reality of the situation is that you just wanted to withhold pixels from the casual guilds and that pixel denial is what drove your competition. If that competition was really what drove you, you would have continued typical raid behavior as before. Atleast one would think.

So after weeks of people stonewalling and saying "we won't agree to any rotation", when the final raid plan ends up allowing for both some competition and some rotation, those who bitched and moaned about rotations being the end of the raid scene and competition is all that was left for them; you went and rotated without even trying to compete so far as the system allowed.

Is my view as a 3rd party observer incorrect? How much competition ended up happening the last 2 days? Why was there none - a lot ( depending on answer the previous question)?

[Fysts]

Don't think he is angrier, but you do understand his point yes?

During the discussions, your guildmates and others who are guilder under Class C guild tags tried to justify their stance by stating "competition is classic, you had to wake up at this sort of hour and log on to a batphones message to slay dragons, if you can't or aren't willing to do that or track 24/7 you shouldn't get dragons".

Then when it changes you go and do exactly what the casual guilds would do. Come to agreements and rotate. Which is great... But it makes it seem like your original reasoning for your stance was merely a facade and the reality of the situation is that you just wanted to withhold pixels from the casual guilds and that pixel denial is what drove your competition. If that competition was really what drove you, you would have continued typical raid behavior as before. Atleast one would think.

So after weeks of people stonewalling and saying "we won't agree to any rotation", when the final raid plan ends up allowing for both some competition and some rotation, those who bitched and moaned about rotations being the end of the raid scene and competition is all that was left for them; you went and rotated without even trying to compete so far as the system allowed.

Is my view as a 3rd party observer incorrect? How much competition ended up happening the last 2 days? Why was there none - a lot ( depending on answer the previous question)?

From what I have read from raid discussion is They only rotated VP due to fact they almost trained each other 2 times going for different targets due to cross training to pull named. Neither wanted to eat a 30 day ban, so they decided for a full VP repop instead of training each other, they would rotate it, and compete on the respawns that came one at a time. Now as for the outside world mobs, I believe each guild just tried to capitalize on what was smartest for the guild, sometimes if you know a guild is shooting for trak, it is smarter to shoot for another raid target then take the chance of competing and rushing and wiping. Wiping on a server respawn cost so much valuable time, it can cripple any chance you have of getting any mobs. Now on the outside mobs I am just speculating, by how i would strategize my own guild, if i knew tmo was shooting for vs and fe shooting for trak, I give you my assurance i would shoot for sev or inny. Thats just smart imo.

[Troubled]

pixel denial is what drove your competition.

That's still the name of the game. Class C has worked out agreements, as vehemently as they fought each other before, to the point of fraps and suspensions, to make sure that now between them they get every possible pixel. That's why the imposed bag limits need to stay.

[Fysts]

speaking of play styles and contradictions.

FE and IB and TMO came to agreement to not compete against each other in class C - camped out at different mobs to take down the most efficiently in order to ONLY compete against those guilds unwilling to compete (class R).

TMO and IB did not even show a raid force in the zone for trakanon. FE competed against BDA.

TMO and FE did not even show a raid force in the zone for severilous. IB got that uncontested.

IB and FE did not show a raid force in the zone for faydedar. TMO got that uncontested.

COuld go on and on about your agreements to NOT compete outside of VP, and then there is the total collusion to NOT compete in VP as well. Carebear stare: Hoshkar and Phara Dar taken out by combined raid force of FE/IB/TMO. The other mobs split up with no competition at all.

Tell us more about about how CONTRADICTORY your PLAYSTYLES are in comparison to class R rotating their 33% mobs?


All those mobs you listed were FFA mobs, which means any Class-R could have competed and should have, but chose not to. I applaud BDA if they competed with FE on Trak, and had they gave me a shout out i woulda threw my guild weight to help, though it wouldnt be much, because they atleast embraced the idea of FFA mobs being competitve. It sounds to me like your more upset the Class-C guilds used their heads and strategy to kill FFA mobs, to me its just sad that no Class-R guilds besides BDA even tried to compete, are you seriously mad the competitoin class guilds raced for FFA mobs, when that is what they are intended for, then you have the audacity to call them care bears, its laughable. The sad thing is under the new no poopsock clause every class-r guild now has equal footing to engage FFA mobs on respawns, maybe they should have strategized to pick a FFA mob and TRY to compete. Sorry you get no sympathy from me, because the class-C guilds actually used strategy instead of brute force against each other. Personally I will say this, "Well played Class-C"

[Daldaen]

From what I have read from raid discussion is They only rotated VP due to fact they almost trained each other 2 times going for different targets due to cross training to pull named. Neither wanted to eat a 30 day ban, so they decided for a full VP repop instead of training each other, they would rotate it, and compete on the respawns that came one at a time. Now as for the outside world mobs, I believe each guild just tried to capitalize on what was smartest for the guild, sometimes if you know a guild is shooting for trak, it is smarter to shoot for another raid target then take the chance of competing and rushing and wiping. Wiping on a server respawn cost so much valuable time, it can cripple any chance you have of getting any mobs. Now on the outside mobs I am just speculating, by how i would strategize my own guild, if i knew tmo was shooting for vs and fe shooting for trak, I give you my assurance i would shoot for sev or inny. Thats just smart imo.
1. VP... It's depressing that the strategy on this server 99% of the time is train shit and Zerg down the dragon. Most of the challenge of EQ is meant to come from the environment, in that regard it means the add/trash clears. But alas, 14 years later ain't nobody got time for that.

2. Yea I understand it is "smarter" or rather, you are more likely to get a single kill by going to where your competition isn't. But... Those who were championing the importance of competition went on and on about how fun it is and how without it they wouldn't even want to raid. In the end however they went for the path of least resistance and didn't compete on the open world dragons, disproving their previous arguments.

[Pheer]

Don't think he is angrier, but you do understand his point yes?

During the discussions, your guildmates and others who are guilder under Class C guild tags tried to justify their stance by stating "competition is classic, you had to wake up at this sort of hour and log on to a batphones message to slay dragons, if you can't or aren't willing to do that or track 24/7 you shouldn't get dragons".

Then when it changes you go and do exactly what the casual guilds would do. Come to agreements and rotate. Which is great... But it makes it seem like your original reasoning for your stance was merely a facade and the reality of the situation is that you just wanted to withhold pixels from the casual guilds and that pixel denial is what drove your competition. If that competition was really what drove you, you would have continued typical raid behavior as before. Atleast one would think.

So after weeks of people stonewalling and saying "we won't agree to any rotation", when the final raid plan ends up allowing for both some competition and some rotation, those who bitched and moaned about rotations being the end of the raid scene and competition is all that was left for them; you went and rotated without even trying to compete so far as the system allowed.

Is my view as a 3rd party observer incorrect? How much competition ended up happening the last 2 days? Why was there none - a lot ( depending on answer the previous question)?

Maybe because it was the first full repop since the changes and none of the class C guilds wanted to eat like a month long raid suspension right out the gate? TMO/FE/IB could either agree to a solution in VP that gives everybody mob kills and ensures no bullshit goes down the very first day of the new raid policy, or they could frantically rush around to mobs accidentally training eachother multiple times in the process and then argue with gms in petitions, on the forums, and amongst eachother for a week about whether said trains were accidental or intentional.

VP was desynching with all 3 guilds present and would have been a complete shit sandwich clusterfuck without some kind of agreement in place. I dont get why you guys seem to think theres some kind of secret class C illuminati new world order type shit going on behind closed doors to try to deny as many pixels as possible, its pretty obvious why things were done that way.

[Daldaen]

So fear of month long bang in VP due to your strategy of ignoring trash spawn and training shit around. That makes sense.

What about the outdoor dragons. How much competition was there? Not much trash to worry about for the open world stuff, Trak/VS only have a handful of see invis on the way down and a handful in their respective rooms as well. Not too much to make an epic trainmonster and worry about eating a ban.

[Fysts]

1. VP... It's depressing that the strategy on this server 99% of the time is train shit and Zerg down the dragon. Most of the challenge of EQ is meant to come from the environment, in that regard it means the add/trash clears. But alas, 14 years later ain't nobody got time for that.

2. Yea I understand it is "smarter" or rather, you are more likely to get a single kill by going to where your competition isn't. But... Those who were championing the importance of competition went on and on about how fun it is and how without it they wouldn't even want to raid. In the end however they went for the path of least resistance and didn't compete on the open world dragons, disproving their previous arguments.

I will give you a slight lesson in VP since you seem to have no experience there. Trash mobs are a 2min respawn, if that. Meaning you cannot clear them, they have to be trained.

On your second note I see it as a lack of performance from Class-R. Maybe Class-C was expecting competition on FFA mobs, but no class-r stepped up to the plate. I saw your raid discussions, you complained that it wasn't that you would not race for mobs, but the tactics Class-c guilds used for raiding you would not do, now that the tactics were removed for the respawns, Class-R still did not challenge them on even footing, thus making your statements just as false. Sorry both sides tried to play trump cards and wound up just throwing off suit. Why not challenge class-c on FFA mobs on respawns, then you have a healthy raid environment with class-c vs class-c on class-c mobs, class-c vs class-r vs anyone else on ffa, and class-r rotation on class r mobs, which i think is what the intended plan was trying to do. I think Rogean really wants Class-r to challenge Class-c on ffa, now that all Class-c advantages and dirty tactics as you call them are removed, and like i said if any guild in class-r needs a hand AoD is always willing to try to help.

[Fysts]

So fear of month long bang in VP due to your strategy of ignoring trash spawn and training shit around. That makes sense.

What about the outdoor dragons. How much competition was there? Not much trash to worry about for the open world stuff, Trak/VS only have a handful of see invis on the way down and a handful in their respective rooms as well. Not too much to make an epic trainmonster and worry about eating a ban.

VS I will address. Every guild on this server by now should know VS is always TMO priority on raid repops, it always has been. You had 3 guilds sitting in kc waiting on VS, now if you were a guildleader of say FE, wouldn't you go, "Hey guys TMO, and 2 other guilds are racing on VS, Lets go nail Trak. We will have to race bda" Now you take IB and they go hey lets nail sev while tmo and FE are busy with vs and trak. The failure IMHO was no Class-R guild said Hey TMO is at vs, FE is going for trak vs bda, Ib is forming in sev, lets go kill inny or fay while we got a window. This to me was just poor execution of strategy, you must be able to agree with this logic.

[Pheer]

So fear of month long bang in VP due to your strategy of ignoring trash spawn and training shit around. That makes sense.

What about the outdoor dragons. How much competition was there? Not much trash to worry about for the open world stuff, Trak/VS only have a handful of see invis on the way down and a handful in their respective rooms as well. Not too much to make an epic trainmonster and worry about eating a ban.

Lol.

You guys complain about how unreasonable it is to expect the other guilds to conform to the playstyle of the class c guilds, how no person should be expected to have to compete in this fashion with eachother. Then when the class c guilds go one repop doing it the way you guys advocated for you get mad and think its bullshit that we didn't train eachother into the ground.

I think I'm done with this thread, if you don't understand it by now then nothing I say is going to change your mind. /popcorn mode engaged since I'm sure this will be moved to RnF soon enough.

[lazcar]

Why don't you guys... idk... kill the trash? That's classic isn't it?? Killing trash before bosses..

[Daldaen]

Never spent any time in pre-vamp VP so I was unaware of the spawn time. But from my experience raiding other content there have been certain areas of zones similar to that respawn time and we would end up balancing down 4-5 mobs at a time, kill them all in a 20s window and then run quickly to another point past the static and ideally roaming mobs we just killed and repeat that process until near our target. But I am doubting that is applicable here since it would bleed your mana quickly and you can't recover it all that fast.

I agree with that logic if your goal is to attain pixels. Which it would be for most all guilds I'd imagine. But many people tried to argue competition was all that really mattered without it "free pixels" weren't worth their time. I guess respawns themselves don't allow for much competition since everything is up and so many would prefer to take that path of least resistance.

It is likely too early to throw around assumptions of how this whole thing will pan out. Perhaps in a few weeks there will be more competition within the class C and more between the classes for FFA mobs. We shall see.


Lol no. I'm not mad you didn't train each other to the ground Feign. But without competition it invalidates the earlier arguments made about why rotations and repops are bad. As I stated above it is too soon for me to continue judging this based on a single repop. I will simply have to choose other threads to read during work until then.

[Fysts]

I would agree with your last statement, and honestly I think Class-C was expecting alot more competition on the FFA mobs, as that to me was the FFA purpsose to allow Class-R to compete with Class-C without the penalty of moving to Class-C. Atleast as I have stated thats is my view. I guess my only argument would be Class-C mobs should ALWAYS be open to any guild/raidforce on the server at any time. If you wanted to make it truely interesting I would suggest this.

Respawn. All guilds are limited to 1 FFA kill, regardless of class. After 1 hour all Class-C mobs will become FFA. (Including VP) There is no limit/lockout on class-c mobs.

[Daldaen]

I would agree with your last statement, and honestly I think Class-C was expecting alot more competition on the FFA mobs, as that to me was the FFA purpsose to allow Class-R to compete with Class-C without the penalty of moving to Class-C. Atleast as I have stated thats is my view. I guess my only argument would be Class-C mobs should ALWAYS be open to any guild/raidforce on the server at any time. If you wanted to make it truely interesting I would suggest this.

Respawn. All guilds are limited to 1 FFA kill, regardless of class. After 1 hour all Class-C mobs will become FFA. (Including VP) There is no limit/lockout on class-c mobs.

I like this suggestion. It would keep Class C on its toes. But I'm not sure how many in class c would agree. Since that is sort of like giving yourself a handicap. Maybe I'm wrong though.

[Fysts]

Well Sometimes the best competition is racing the clock, yes? I think it would make the true nature of class-c on repops. They want competition, this would give them 2 forms, other guilds, and time.

Would also amend that any class-c mob that went FFA after 1 hour would not be held against bag limit, this way all Guilds could compete regardless of prior kills. This to me would make raiding fun again, even for the class-c.

[Brut]

Never spent any time in pre-vamp VP so I was unaware of the spawn time. But from my experience raiding other content there have been certain areas of zones similar to that respawn time and we would end up balancing down 4-5 mobs at a time, kill them all in a 20s window and then run quickly to another point past the static and ideally roaming mobs we just killed and repeat that process until near our target. But I am doubting that is applicable here since it would bleed your mana quickly and you can't recover it all that fast.

And because the wurms work like black reavers, respawning on their kill point repeatedly for random amount of times. Usually while you're working on the repops the pather is already back. This isn't Vex Thal, clearing the same trash for countless hours until raid reaches a boss isn't the way the zone is meant to be handled.

[Sarkhan]

So C-guilds shared VP due to problems with trains and such but what I do not understand is why they felt the need to go after FFA mobs in the first place instead of heading straight for VP.

If one of those guilds decided to go for VP they could have cleaned some of those dragons without splitting loot while the other two C-guilds were busy killing lesser FFA mobs.

[Sarkhan]

A 2 mob bag limit seems reasonable as it isn't only about "the now" situation but about implementing a raid scene that will hopefully hold up for the future. As it is the bag limit only applies to respawns which, at most, happen 4 times a month.

Maybe I'm just too passive but it doesn't seem like such a huge problem to be upset over respawns that were not even in the game before the new raid rules. Being extra mobs it makes sense to me that guilds are limited to two of them.

[Erati]

VS I will address. Every guild on this server by now should know VS is always TMO priority on raid repops, it always has been. You had 3 guilds sitting in kc waiting on VS, now if you were a guildleader of say FE, wouldn't you go, "Hey guys TMO, and 2 other guilds are racing on VS, Lets go nail Trak. We will have to race bda" Now you take IB and they go hey lets nail sev while tmo and FE are busy with vs and trak. The failure IMHO was no Class-R guild said Hey TMO is at vs, FE is going for trak vs bda, Ib is forming in sev, lets go kill inny or fay while we got a window. This to me was just poor execution of strategy, you must be able to agree with this logic.

this is one of the dumbest things I have read. Both those mobs were classified as Tier C and thus any R guild ( or aspiring R guild) that killed them would be rewarded with only competing versus TMO/IB/FE til the staff had mercy on them and dropped them out of the tier

please think your thoughts all the way through before you spit out brainless sentences onto the forums

[Daldaen]

And because the wurms work like black reavers, respawning on their kill point repeatedly for random amount of times. Usually while you're working on the repops the pather is already back. This isn't Vex Thal, clearing the same trash for countless hours until raid reaches a boss isn't the way the zone is meant to be handled.

Don't think the zone is meant to be a train away tons of mob fest either though. Very few EQ mechanics encouraged training or kiting stuff. But I guess it's the path of least resistance.

[chu]

im sorry to interupt i just want to know what all ur definition of "uncontested" is in this context

still waiting for an answer
til i know, im gonna have a lot of trouble understanding this thread

[Fysts]

A 2 mob bag limit seems reasonable as it isn't only about "the now" situation but about implementing a raid scene that will hopefully hold up for the future. As it is the bag limit only applies to respawns which, at most, happen 4 times a month.

Maybe I'm just too passive but it doesn't seem like such a huge problem to be upset over respawns that were not even in the game before the new raid rules. Being extra mobs it makes sense to me that guilds are limited to two of them.

I do not see how it ever makes sense for any Class-C mob to bot be able to be engage by any and all guilds. That is the point of a class-c mob, that anyone can kill it. If there is any situation in which a class-c spawn will be awarded to class-r guilds without competition from class-c then the system is flawed. Class-R should be class-R engageable, FFA mobs should be engagable by any class without penalty, and class-C mobs should be open for all to engage, with the rule it moves a guild into class-c. It is that simple.

[Hitpoint]

Seems to be lots of irrelevant discussion here. Lets try to get back on track.

You don't have to take every single target that is available, every single time. You are getting the lion's share. 12 of 17. 70?ish%. Is my logic flawed or is this right?

That's correct, we don't have to get every single target. But we're probably going to try to, and it would be an option if this loophole didn't exist. People quoting numbers and saying how we don't deserve so many mobs, or that the deal already favors us (yes, it OBVIOUSLY favors Class C, just like every plan has, just like they should) are all making strawman arguments. This isn't about what you think we're entitled to, the rotation is already set, and the numbers have already been agreed to. This is about a very specific loophole in a set of rules that were implemented and agreed upon by Class R , and class R only.

No your logic is perfect, tmo/fe/ib that are complaining are just greedy.

We're all greedy. But I don't think that trying to make sure you get what you're entitled to in writing, counts as greedy.

1. VP... It's depressing that the strategy on this server 99% of the time is train shit and Zerg down the dragon. Most of the challenge of EQ is meant to come from the environment, in that regard it means the add/trash clears. But alas, 14 years later ain't nobody got time for that.

2. Yea I understand it is "smarter" or rather, you are more likely to get a single kill by going to where your competition isn't. But... Those who were championing the importance of competition went on and on about how fun it is and how without it they wouldn't even want to raid. In the end however they went for the path of least resistance and didn't compete on the open world dragons, disproving their previous arguments.

Clearing trash in VP is time consuming and complicated, as you are probably aware by now. It makes zero sense to kill them when you can simply move them and walk past. Class C guilds try to be efficient about most things, and that includes time. But this thread isn't about VP.

We would prefer not to waste the first mob on a repop by going where another top guild is going to be. Watch how competitive the regular spawns will be. But again, this is completely off topic.

Why don't you guys... idk... kill the trash? That's classic isn't it?? Killing trash before bosses..

See above. Endless spawning wurms, zero reason to, etc. Not to mention there are people who spent countless hours building their dragon faction. I for one would not want to kill a single trash mob in VP.

So C-guilds shared VP due to problems with trains and such but what I do not understand is why they felt the need to go after FFA mobs in the first place instead of heading straight for VP.

If one of those guilds decided to go for VP they could have cleaned some of those dragons without splitting loot while the other two C-guilds were busy killing lesser FFA mobs.

Just because there's a new server agreement about sharing mobs doesn't mean the class C guilds aren't going to try to get as many as they can. We leave Class R spawns alone, and the 2 FFA mobs that we were not allowed to attack due to the bag limit. That's how R benefits from this agreement. Class C guilds going to VP first is just terrible for everyone involved. They do not want to go to VP first, as it makes no sense to do so. Is there reason to? Sure, I bet any one of us would have wanted a solo PD kill. But it would mean giving up something else. If one guild went to VP first, probably the others would notice and also be forced to give up world spawn mobs. Luckily for us, that didn't happen.

I wish in general, people would stop discussing what Class C chooses to do with their time on a repop. If you think they collaborate, and for that you think they are hypocrites whatever, it doesn't matter because it's within the rules and that's not what this thread is about. There has been a few intelligent suggestions so far, thank you for those.

[Crosswind]

I wish in general, people would stop discussing what Class C chooses to do with their time on a repop. If you think they collaborate, and for that you think they are hypocrites whatever, it doesn't matter because it's within the rules and that's not what this thread is about. .

Hey, we've been telling you throughout the process that working together is better than competing for mobs. I, for one, appreciate that TMO/FE/IB decided to work together as a team to take down some FFA mobs instead of competing over VP. I think it's a step towards a more civilized raid scene.

Being competitive about raiding is dumb. I'm glad you chose to make deals instead of competing, and I think it'll lead to a more positive raid environment. Maybe you guys can even settle on a rotation to maximize your mobs per unit effort!