Game Mechanics: Rogue hide [Archive]

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4WOFURY

05-01-2014, 07:20 PM

Rogue hide is not as it was in classic. Link to other thread, with multiple evidences.

Why is Rogue hide the same as invis/ivu? (www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=146474)

drktmplr12

05-02-2014, 03:11 PM

I noticed in the July 2013 patch that Rog hide was made to be the same as invis/ivu. I'm not sure why though? When I started on p99 in 12/12, rogue hide was as I remembered it; better than invis where only select mobs could see through it, not just everything that saw invis.

This makes rogue hide pointless, and even worse than someone who has invis/ivu cast on them, as it has a snare effect.

I don't see any patch notes where hide was nerfed on the classic time line, or made better, and I remember at least during the Kunark/Velious era sneaking all the way through SolB to Nagafen's door; past kobolds and LDCs (though Nagafen did see through hide, and upon being spotted, made for a fun run out of the lair so I didn't die! Giants were usually down and farmed for their loot)

I have no "proof" like a patch note saying it was made better, because it was never bad to begin with. Only thing I see is on http://everquest.allakhazam.com/wiki/EQ:Rogue which states :

Quote:
Additionally, mobs that would normally see a character using a spell or potion are much less likely to see a sneak/hidden rogue.
Allakhazam even notates which mobs see invis, and which go further and see hide; as did the p99 wiki.

This does appear to have been written during the PoP era, though it mentions Shroud of Stealth making hide even more powerful, not that hide was the same as regular invis before hand, and again, I have not been able to find any patch notes notating it had been improved/degraded from a previous state.

Also, I have not yet reached level 60, though in talking to some other rogues I see that the snare effect of sneak is still somewhat noticable even at that level. My remembrance of classic was that the snare was removed, and you could run freely even while sneaking. Again, this was written during PoP era, but it specifically mentions level 60:

Quote:
At level 51, you begin to speed up (gradually with each level) to an unnoticable difference at level 60.
I'm open to being shown I'm wrong, but otherwise, I don't understand why the hide nerf and sneak-speed reduction at 60 are in place.

Thanks

drktmplr12

05-02-2014, 03:15 PM

Post from March 2000 describing sneak/hide mechanics, no replies or discussion in it:

http://www.thesafehouse.org/forums/showthread.php?t=2855

bulbousaur

05-02-2014, 03:17 PM

This is correct. Why else would rogues be used for CR? It's not just because sneak is invis plus ivu - only select mobs saw through it, not every see invis.

4WOFURY

05-02-2014, 03:24 PM

Thanks drktmplr12. Quotes from my Server chat thread that weren't included in your quote -

I noticed in the July 2013 patch that Rog hide was made to be the same as invis/ivu. I'm not sure why though? When I started on p99 in 12/12, rogue hide was as I remembered it; better than invis where only select mobs could see through it, not just everything that saw invis.

This makes rogue hide pointless, and even worse than someone who has invis/ivu cast on them, as it has a snare effect.

I don't see any patch notes where hide was nerfed on the classic time line, or made better, and I remember at least during the Kunark/Velious era sneaking all the way through SolB to Nagafen's door; past kobolds and LDCs (though Nagafen did see through hide, and upon being spotted, made for a fun run out of the lair so I didn't die! Giants were usually down and farmed for their loot)

I have no "proof" like a patch note saying it was made better, because it was never bad to begin with. Only thing I see is on http://everquest.allakhazam.com/wiki/EQ:Rogue which states :

Additionally, mobs that would normally see a character using a spell or potion are much less likely to see a sneak/hidden rogue.

Allakhazam even notates which mobs see invis, and which go further and see hide; as did the p99 wiki.

This does appear to have been written during the PoP era, though it mentions Shroud of Stealth making hide even more powerful, not that hide was the same as regular invis before hand, and again, I have not been able to find any patch notes notating it had been improved/degraded from a previous state.

Also, I have not yet reached level 60, though in talking to some other rogues I see that the snare effect of sneak is still somewhat noticable even at that level. My remembrance of classic was that the snare was removed, and you could run freely even while sneaking. Again, this was written during PoP era, but it specifically mentions level 60:

I'm open to being shown I'm wrong, but otherwise, I don't understand why the hide nerf and sneak-speed reduction at 60 are in place.

Thanks

At www.thesafehouse.org (http://www.thesafehouse.org/forums/showthread.php?t=2855), and written on March 31, 2000:

List of Creatures That Can See Through Hide
Dragons (Vox and Nagafen)
Fire Giants
Scorn Banshees
Lichs
Loathing Lichs
Evil Eyes
Huge Elemental (Lower Guk)

Baxter

05-02-2014, 03:29 PM

Shamalam

05-02-2014, 06:15 PM

What I don't understand, is that when I started on p99 in 2012, hide/sneak was working as it should, and as it did in classic. It was this patch (http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=114944) that mega-nerfed it, without any sort of reason.

Sunday, July 14th, 2013 (http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=114944)

It looks like this might have been the patch that also fixed invis pulling. Is it possible that these changes are unintentionally related?

Supaskillz

05-02-2014, 06:18 PM

There is no way this is working right. The entire ability is worthless when a simple invis is superior. How in any way is a wizard just as good CRing corpses with invis compared to the state of rogues right now? I never recall back in the day of groups looking for CRs calling out to wizards and druids....

I have a sky mask(unlimited self invis) and I haven't used my sneak hide since the patch.

If a wiz is as good as you, you are doing it wrong.

I think hide should be somewhere between where it was before and where it is now. I think it is evident hide had a different check than invis, however need more comprehensive list of what saw through hide. Before patch changing it, basically had to worry about hs goo, chardok dogs, fire giants, and an occasional scorn banshee and turmoil toad. The list must be longer than this. Maybe I will try to dig when I'm not at work. As I mentioned before I am certain there are mobs in seb who see hide.

4WOFURY

05-02-2014, 06:29 PM

It looks like this might have been the patch that also fixed invis pulling. Is it possible that these changes are unintentionally related?

I doubt it, as we're now able to become just as invisible as anyone else. Invis pulling was casting invis on a monk while he was FD, then not having to worry about ads - from what I know.

However, notice in that statement that I said just as invisible as anyone else. Rogues are defined as a stealthy class, and surpass the inivisibility of others.

Every kobold in SolB now see's through hide and attacks me.

Each mob was comprehensively listed on the wiki of before, which data was probably taken from eq.allakhazam.com, as which mobs saw invis, and which mobs went further to see hide.

Supaskillz

05-02-2014, 06:35 PM

Zam have this list in correct time frame?

Shiftin

05-03-2014, 12:10 AM

SamwiseRed

05-03-2014, 12:37 AM

60 run/hide isnt full run speed?

Shiftin

05-03-2014, 01:34 AM

ha, no. i actually ask for invis in VP sometimes for quick moves because it's no worse than my hide, and with sneak/hide on a long run like from zone in to pool room, i can be a good 15-20 seconds behind the raid by the time we get up there.

4WOFURY

05-03-2014, 03:43 AM

To pile on, sneak/hide at 60 is still a significant snare. It should be a full speed run or damn near it according to Kendricks posts, and it basically cancels out jboots in its current implementation.

I Also mentioned this in my original post -

Also, I have not yet reached level 60, though in talking to some other rogues I see that the snare effect of sneak is still somewhat noticable even at that level. My remembrance of classic was that the snare was removed, and you could run freely even while sneaking. Again, this was written during PoP era, but it specifically mentions level 60:

At level 51, you begin to speed up (gradually with each level) to an unnoticable difference at level 60.

Supaskillz

05-03-2014, 08:03 PM

Browsed some zam forum discussion. Posted lots of stuff below Reading through these I have very little faith in the accounts most of these players give lol. Basically alot of bad and conflicting information. But here is what I found none the less.

http://web.archive.org/web/20010903055700/http://eqdb.allakhazam.com/strategy/classes.html?class=2&start=75

pretty weak evidence for current state. Given how he describes sneak I dont think he is being precise in his analogy to invis.

Sneak and Hide:
This really really is one of the greatest abilities in the game and unique to the rogue class.

Hide alone is (in the rogue case) a invisibility and invisibility versus undead at the same time.
This is extreamly valuable and makes rogues the only class that can be invis to living and undead beings at the same time.

Sneak when used alone significantly reduces your aggro radius and works as a invis if you are behind a creature.

On top of that rogues can sneak and hide at the same time, granting you the benefits of both skills at once.

This guy suggests there are mobs in Befallen that can see through hide, but maybe just dumb.

Rogues By: Anonymous
Posted @ Thu, Aug 2nd 12:30 PM 2001 Score: Default[2.00]
I have a rogue on the Cazic-Thule server. Right now he is level 14. His name is Quinby. He is a gnome rogue. In my opinion I think that rogues are a GREAT class. I have played lots of other classes until at least level 20 to see if I liked them, but the rogue is the only class that I have liked since level 10. The can pickpocket, great skill, used for upping your funds, they can backstab, a huge amount of damaged every 6 seconds, the can HIDE/SNEAK, which is great for scouting and PICKLOCKING doors. By the way, if you want to raise picklock, just go to Befallen, in West Commons, and do your little HIDE/SNEAK and go down the stairs, stay near the right wall, BUT, stay about 10 feet away from it...go to the second door on the right and PICKLOCK away! Remember to stay away from the door, just get within PICKLOCKING distance from it. There are a couple mobs on the other side of the door that can see through HIDE/SNEAK. Hope this helped. -Quinby-

Guy implies having see invis allows mob to see hide.

The rogue has been much more interesting for me. First, as a half elf rogue in banded armor I look cool. When I get my Ravenscale armor or Blackened Alloy armor I will look even more cool. Special weapon procs and poisons give a great variety of options for dealing with MOBS. Its not just beating on the thing for all you can as fast as you can. With poisons and weapon procs you can slow, root, weaken, or do DD. Your choice. Using sneak+hide (what I call stealth mode) allows me to travel nearly anywhere without risk (unless the MOB can see invis).

says bats in guk see hide

RE: Masks of Changin` By: Anonymous
Posted @ Tue, May 29th 4:46 PM 2001 Score: Default[2.00]
The only one I have personal experience with is the mask of deception found on the Ghoul Assassin in Lower Guk. I was just in there at level 30 and he was big time red to me. the nice thing about the mask is it is rogue/bard only and is no drop. It is a common drop too. I just sneaked and hid all the way in. A very long dungeon to sneak hide through and you better have real good swimming skill or enduring breath to get there because there is some serious swimming. You will be invis to everything in their except the vampire bats who killed me on the way out of the dungeon. This mask gives you illusion of Dark Elf and can not be triggered till you are at least level 15. Good luck.

more evidence of the bats
one word of caution tho in my recent attempts to get one myself (two tries) i discovered the hard way that you apparantly need to have sow in order to get out of the water where you need to if you are sneaking which you probably would be.. and also aparantly the vampire bats can see thru hide/sneak, i only saw one on two trips (well one and a half actually) and it didn't attack me but when i conned it it said ready to attack and it was red at 17, plus if it hit me my hide woulda dropped and all the undead frogs woulda attacked too so i wasn't chancing it.

Can you elaborate a little for us please!

Sneaky Hide By: Anonymous
Posted @ Tue, May 8th 8:27 PM 2001 Score: Default[2.00]
What exactly sees through sneak and hide? Is it simply anything that sees through invisi?

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RE: Sneaky Hide By: Anonymous
Posted @ Thu, May 10th 2:46 AM 2001 Score: Default[2.00]
Its not really that simple. Some things that see through invis will not see through sneak hide. Some mobs can see you if you are in front of them, but not if you are sneaking right behind them. My advice is simply con everything...even when sneak hiding...it will save your life.

Ledinea Ravensoul
50 rogue

This is interesting. don't know anything about usenet to find these posts on wayback

Posted @ Thu, May 10th 4:18 PM 2001 Score: Default[2.00]
There's also a documented random factor in hide/sneak where mobs will sometimes attack you even if you are hidden (con indifferent) to them. No one has ever been able to pin Verant down as to whether this is a 'feature' or a bug. There were a number of posts about this on usenet 1.5 years ago or so.

<Narsse, retired Karana rogue>

you heard it here folks. too powerful

Balarman By: Anonymous
Posted @ Tue, Feb 13th 10:03 AM 2001 Score: Default[2.00]
Sneak/Hide Can anyone tell me where i can learn about sneak/hide? I don't quite understand how sneak works and i guess i don't have enough experience to use hide (it keeps telling me i'm trying but rarely happens). Would appreciate some specifics. Love this little character!

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RE: Balarman By: Anonymous
Posted @ Tue, Feb 13th 6:23 PM 2001 Score: Default[2.00]
Sneak and Hide are both Rogue skills, accessed and used like any other skill. Sneak, when successful will yield a message saying: You are as quiet as a cat stalking it's prey. This will drop your speed to 1/2 the norm, but it will allow you to move around with Hide up. This counts as an invis, and an invis vs. Undead. Pretty neat, useful skill, if you ask me. You can counter the speed deficiency by getting a SOW (Spirit of Wolf [spell], speed boost) from a generous player. Good hunting!!

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RE: Balarman By: Anonymous
Posted @ Mon, Feb 19th 3:00 PM 2001 Score: Default[2.00]
Dear Anonymous

thanks for the excellent explantion of sneak/hide. Am more familiar w/ it now but ur message put me over the top. Can't wait to try it...thanks so much

Balarman

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RE: Balarman By: Pilapeu, Sage
166 posts
Posted @ Fri, Feb 16th 7:08 PM 2001 Score: Good[3.87]
It's invis vs undead too!?! no way, thats like way tooo powerfull. But I like it

/em throws his head back and cackles with insane glee

Pilapeu Wewingtonheet
SilentFist Clan
Seventh Hammer Server

It sounds like he is saying you can hide/sneak past the see invis wizards
LEVELS 34-41: Clockworks in Sol. A
By now you will need to have met a friend you is a healer. Grab them and head to Soluek A.

If your friend can invisible, getting to the clocks should be too much of a problem. Watch out for Wizards as they can see invisible. You can always hide/sneak past them, but you friend needs to use more conventional means. There is a zone to Sol B. near the Clocks, so if you get into trouble, you can make a quick escape. Don't go exploring Sol. B. Most of the stuff can't see you, but some can and if it aggros on you, your screwed.

lynada in sol A can see according to this

fun with rogues (the missing contents of original) By: Anonymous
Posted @ Fri, Nov 24th 2:56 AM 2000 Score: Default[2.00]
sorry. hit enter too soon. ANYways... rogues are really fun. i just love sneaking/hiding around especially when ppl say things like "what's a lvl 3 doing in mistmoore?" adds up to a lot of possible exploring early on and some insane loot. either way, its fun. just make sure you rehide after you loot something even if you still think your hiding.

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RE: fun with rogues (the missing contents of original) By: Anonymous
Posted @ Sat, Dec 9th 12:23 AM 2000 Score: Default[2.00]
been there done that. i dont know, maybe someone's seen me around. Anyways, the boy is right and it is great fun :) NOTHING can see a hidden rogue

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RE: fun with rogues (the missing contents of original) By: Anonymous
Posted @ Mon, Dec 11th 6:45 PM 2000 Score: Default[2.00]
sorry to burst your bubble but there are a few high lvl creatures both living and undead that can see through a rogues hide... if ya dont believe me go wander around kithicor forest after dark

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RE: fun with rogues (the missing contents of original) By: Anonymous
Posted @ Wed, Dec 13th 8:31 PM 2000 Score: Default[2.00]
There are also places with a lot of mobs that see our invis such as lower guk and some places that are underwater.

Arrtemis Entreri,Torvonnilous.

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RE: fun with rogues (the missing contents of original) By: Anonymous
Posted @ Wed, Dec 13th 8:25 PM 2000 Score: Default[2.00]
Or guk,mistmoore and places with skeletal undead.

Arrtemis Entreri,Torvonnilous.

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RE: fun with rogues (the missing contents of original) By: Anonymous
Posted @ Wed, Dec 20th 9:59 PM 2000 Score: Default[2.00]
first, what saw you in mm? i have been to jus bout every mob in there while hidin an nuthin aggroed. as for nuthin seein us while hidin, yer a tad wrong on that info. one of the places visited by most 'true rogues' (imo, at least) is lynada the exiled in sol a. try sneakin in there an see which of the gobs aggros you first ). got aggrod twice while checkin her out. the second time a 50+ shammy killed her an i looted the purse jus before i died (.

Supaskillz

05-03-2014, 08:27 PM

http://www.thesafehouse.org/forums/showthread.php?t=2869

This is interesting, it sounds as though in 2001 you could infact do the stuff that got nerfed here, that is pull with sneak hit hide and run past mobs without social aggro.

I wish the comments were archived from this post.

Scrubosaur

05-03-2014, 09:26 PM

From the research I have done it sounds like sneak/hide was a lot more complex than just invis/itu or invis to everything except X mobs. It looks like there was also a level check involved when determining which mobs could see you. This would explain why low level people sneaking through lower guk for a mask would be seen by mobs that aren't said to be able to see through hide/sneak.

As for myself, I have run into the random see through hide/sneak while in Unrest. On two different spawns a dry bones skeleton saw me while I was in sneak/hide. I checked my logs and prior to getting hit I did not see a notice that hide or sneak had dropped. I also verified that it was a successful hide and sneak. The only thing that could have happened was I did have a message "you can not loot this corpse at this time." from using mouse look to move around. There was no drop of hide/sneak message but it is possible that it triggered it to make me seen even though I was still moving slow and appeared invisible.

Cecily

05-05-2014, 03:45 AM

I never trusted spell invis on live because it sucked. My computer sucked too. So to get through DL, I'd hide / sneak and stare at the ground while mashing my loc key to find KC. This was perfectly safe. It's not on P99.

The point of Shroud of Stealth wasn't to make you invis to see invis, it was to make you invis to the annoying handful of mobs that made your life suck by being able to see rogues. Like gods and other nuisances. I'm positive the old version was mostly right. Some mobs might have been off, but rogues are crippled on P99.

Something I would like looked at is Invis + IVU spells stacking. I never saw that on live and I'm really dubious as to that being a real mechanic.

Pezy

05-05-2014, 05:16 AM

I know for a fact that IVU and Invis stacked, at the very least during Velious and throughout PoP. I also know for the fact that Rogue hide was far superior to IVU + Invis all through classic, and is actually inferior here.

The evidence posted in these threads clearly shows that what we have now is wrong, and has almost entirely destroyed one of the core aspects of the Rogue class. I really hope this gets looked at and remedied sooner rather than later.

Velerin

05-05-2014, 10:37 AM

I distinctly remember doing CRs in Sol B on my rogue. Kobolds (see normal invis) did not see hide, where bats did see hide. Also in Guk, you could make it all the way to the assassin to wait on a mask as long as were lucky to not get seen by the bats near bedroom. Apparently Verant decided bats were rogue's arch enemy, but many "see invis" mobs did not see rogue hide.

Man0warr

05-05-2014, 10:45 AM

Bats detect by echo location, so it makes sense in a real life way :D

Haynar

05-05-2014, 01:19 PM

There seems to be plenty of evidence that rogue sneak/hide is better than invis/ivu.

I will see what the powers that be want to do.

H

Shiftin

05-05-2014, 01:21 PM

Please ask about both items:
Very few things should see rogue hide
Rogue sneak/hide at 60 is still significantly slower than run speed, they should be equal or nearly equal.

Velerin

05-05-2014, 01:45 PM

Bats detect by echo location, so it makes sense in a real life way :D

hah true. Didn't think of that. Sneaky bats.

koros

05-05-2014, 02:43 PM

Please ask about both items:
Very few things should see rogue hide
Rogue sneak/hide at 60 is still significantly slower than run speed, they should be equal or nearly equal.

Should be 100% equal if not.

4WOFURY

05-05-2014, 07:46 PM

There seems to be plenty of evidence that rogue sneak/hide is better than invis/ivu.

I will see what the powers that be want to do.

H

http://pix.echtlustig.com/1303/katze-hinterm-vorhang--soon.jpg

This makes me extremely happy.

Pras be 2 Haynar

Again - Main post :
http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=146474

khanable

05-05-2014, 09:38 PM

Nice

Now we just need a rogue BoTB winner to chime in and we're good

4WOFURY

05-05-2014, 09:47 PM

Nice

Now we just need a rogue BoTB winner to chime in and we're good

?

Scrubosaur

05-05-2014, 10:39 PM

Nice

Now we just need a rogue BoTB winner to chime in and we're good

R O F L

To 4WOFURY: check out discussion on necro being able to dispell recourse from heal - a BoTB winner necro chimed in with his opinion.

Scrubosaur

05-09-2014, 12:15 AM

http://i1021.photobucket.com/albums/af335/questereq/roguesneak_zps80e1f852.png

In mistmoore - went into hidden wall room first time with sneak / hide on with no problems (didn't pull anything). Went back and same mobs attacked while sneak /hide was active.

Supaskillz

05-09-2014, 12:33 AM

logs really better than screen shots so we can verify no one cast spells on you and no bard songs hit you and at least rule out things.

I am no MM expert, but I know wiki says that area has a trap that strips invis spells. Not sure if this trap is active in this time frame, also unsure if it strips hide in addition to invis. If it is stripping hide then there is a problem with it not showing hide has been dropped in a similar way to issue with opening a trade.

Scrubosaur

05-09-2014, 02:58 AM

There was no bard so you can rule that out. I have been in that same room quite a few times to sneak pull the 2 spawns behind the doors and have never run into a trap that has gone off. If this was an isolated incident it could be a possibility, but as I previously posted this happened 5-6 times in Unrest on the main floor while soloing.

Nirgon

05-09-2014, 01:49 PM

...

This is extreamly valuable and makes rogues the only class that can be invis to living and undead beings at the same time.

Oh yeah invis/IVU shouldn't stack evidence. Feels goog.

Erati

05-09-2014, 02:09 PM

Oh yeah invis/IVU shouldn't stack evidence. Feels goog.

your quote proves nothing besides pointing out rogues being the only CLASS that can be ivu and invis without the help of others, hence them using the phrase 'the only class'.

that quote does not have anything to do with the spells Invisibility and Invis to Undead stacking on a player when it is cast on them from other people.

It simply highlights the fact that rogues can do this alone, without another class required.

Nirgon

05-09-2014, 02:43 PM

Naw. Dat's a good piece of evidence.

Matches my recollectin's.

Tikker

05-11-2014, 02:01 AM

The other thing that's currently broken is that if a rogue has invis OR ivu cast on him, it should function as invisible + ivu

The patch on live when plane of sky went live clearly states that

Tikker

05-11-2014, 02:03 AM

https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en&fromgroups=#!topic/rec.games.computer.everquest/FPJmfQtRXZY

Scrubosaur

05-11-2014, 02:56 AM

https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en&fromgroups=#!topic/rec.games.computer.everquest/FPJmfQtRXZY

This would be an upgrade over what we have now. As it stands we walk at a crawl and see invis mobs can see us. It would be easier to run around with sow and a couple of clicky invis items and be seen by the same stuff we are seen by now in hide/sneak. It would also be easier to tell when your iv/itu drops with a buff vs now not knowing when it suddenly drops for no reason (as I have posted above).

Tikker

05-11-2014, 03:12 AM

See invis should see thru hide/sneak. They always did. There was a change in omens of war expansion that added the shroud of stealth aa that changed it to only specific mobs could see all invis/hide.

At 60 hide sneak should be almost full speed but not quite. It was again later aa that enable that

And sneak/hide should NEVER randomly drop or fail. Mob either cons indif or scowls, that's it

4WOFURY

05-11-2014, 03:23 AM

See invis should see thru hide/sneak. They always did. There was a change in omens of war expansion that added the shroud of stealth aa that changed it to only specific mobs could see all invis/hide

Lol no.

Quote from my other thread in server chat.

This entire statement is false.

The evidence I posted shows that not only was sneak/hide better than invis/ivu in regards to what mobs could see through it, but also that the snare effect wore off through levels 51-60 gradually.

Shroud of Stealth was introduced with Planes of Power at level 63, and was an even more enhanced version of sneak/hide. With it, no classic mob period could see through hide; I remember having screen shots of sitting next to Nagafen, though those are long gone. This is irrelevant to the discussion however.

Shroud of Stealth (http://everquest.allakhazam.com/wiki/EQ:Shroud_of_Stealth)

SoS was PoP, lvl 63. It was an further improvement of hide, so even the select mobs that could see through hide in classic, couldn't anymore.

Rogue Hide is simply superior to regular invis, or so it should be (as it was in classic).

Otherwise, why don't we all roll monks? At least they can FD when they get to a see invis.

Zuranthium

05-11-2014, 07:11 AM

See invis should see thru hide/sneak. They always did.

See invis saw through low level hide/sneak, not Rogue hide/sneak at higher levels.

Supaskillz

05-11-2014, 12:20 PM

See invis saw through low level hide/sneak, not Rogue hide/sneak at higher levels.

I am pretty sure lvls do not impact what can see through hide. Maybe impacts the aggro radius which sneak also impacts even of mobs which can see.

Tikker

05-11-2014, 12:48 PM

See invis saw through low level hide/sneak, not Rogue hide/sneak at higher levels.

see invis always saw thru hide/sneak

always

the only thing that levels affected was the the agro radius of mobs due to sneak

Zuranthium

05-11-2014, 03:36 PM

I recall see invis monsters seeing through Wood Elf "Hide" but not seeing through a high-level Rogue "Hide". So...dunno. These skills all have a ranking, though. Having 50 in Hide vs. having the max cap in Hide probably means something more than just the chance it has of working initially.

4WOFURY

05-11-2014, 08:10 PM

PCs with see invis saw through hide.

Mobs that could see through regular invis could not necessarily see through hide.

Have you looked at any of the evidence posted?

4WOFURY

05-11-2014, 08:15 PM

If you want to post counter evidence, feel free. Otherwise, there is ample evidence posted that what you state is not the case.

Hide is a class defining ability for rogues. It is not the same as other classes/races hide.

Other classes/races hide could be seen through by see invis/undead.

4WOFURY

05-11-2014, 08:17 PM

Rogues were commonly used in Velious for dragging corpses around in Kael. Why wouldn't they just use a Necro with gather shadows?

Man0warr

05-11-2014, 08:32 PM

One of the flags for mobs used to be "See Hide/Sneak" - Evil Eyes for instance had it.

Nubben

05-11-2014, 11:18 PM

Having 50 in Hide vs. having the max cap in Hide probably means something more than just the chance it has of working initially.

No, it doesn't.

4WOFURY

05-13-2014, 08:23 PM

No, it doesn't.

^

Seems as though people with no experience keep speculating. Please keep it to cold, hard evidence.

"probably"

4WOFURY

06-24-2014, 04:52 AM

Just wondering what ever came of this - if Haynar or another dev could chime in, that'd be great.

Ryndar

06-25-2014, 05:38 AM

I hope they fix it soon, I'm tired of everything in sol b seeing me.

Scrubosaur

06-30-2014, 11:20 PM

bumped for devs

bulbousaur

07-01-2014, 01:22 PM

Please

kanras

07-02-2014, 02:34 AM

Pending update, reverted back to the old functionality of rogue hide where mobs had to specify their ability to see through hide instead of seeing invis being enough. The only difference is that race-based hide can still be seen through by undead.

4WOFURY

07-02-2014, 03:01 AM

kanras

07-02-2014, 04:03 AM

koros

07-02-2014, 11:28 AM

It's not perfect. It's just that the first step was reverting the asinine way I changed it last time. There's still things that will eventually see through hide that currently don't:

- See invis spell
- Certain mobs when player hide skill is lower

Maybe more I'm not realizing right now.

I don't recall player hide skill ever being a factor. Level 1 (brell) rogues for instance were used in the hole. Where's that sourced from?

4WOFURY

07-02-2014, 11:36 AM

I don't recall player hide skill ever being a factor. Level 1 (brell) rogues for instance were used in the hole. Where's that sourced from?

+1

Even the other thread someone started about hide being skill dependant has been shot down.

http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=111150

Ryndar

07-02-2014, 12:16 PM

kanras

07-02-2014, 01:16 PM

If you have discussion about the skill level stuff, take it to the other thread.

bulbousaur

07-02-2014, 03:05 PM

Thanks so much Kanras. I haven't tried to get a DE mask on my rogue yet because this was broken.

Shiftin

07-02-2014, 05:07 PM

Did your fix include fixing runspeed scaling? As mentioned in a few threads, runspeed is still significantly impacted by sneaking at 60 where it should not be.

4WOFURY

07-02-2014, 11:28 PM

Did your fix include fixing runspeed scaling? As mentioned in a few threads, runspeed is still significantly impacted by sneaking at 60 where it should not be.

^ also relevant and included through-out this thread, however, I am just ecstatic about the hide reversion. Tackling it one thing at a time :-)

Scrubosaur

07-14-2014, 02:14 AM

More stuff I can't sneak/hide past and have to get someone to clear the way to a group...

goos - dalnir
giants - FM
goblins - SolA
kobolds - SolB

Sucks being a rogue that can't go anywhere!

Alunova

07-14-2014, 12:50 PM

Very few things should see rogue hide

It is extremely easy to remove see hide from an NPC. All I need is individual proof that an individual NPC should not see.

Nirgon

07-14-2014, 01:02 PM

Please ask about both items:
Very few things should see rogue hide
Rogue sneak/hide at 60 is still significantly slower than run speed, they should be equal or nearly equal.

Ask Rogean he played a rogue forever.

Do people forget that sneak + hide behind something should be more effective?

Nubben

07-14-2014, 01:48 PM

Do people forget that sneak + hide behind something should be more effective?

This is 100% due to sneak and has nothing to do with Hide. Nothing in the game should ever be able to see anyone (rogue or not) who has sneak activated and is in the mob's rear arc, regardless of Hide or other invis factors. The tricky part is GETTING to the mob's rear arc without being seen, which rogue hide helps you do.

Scrubosaur

07-15-2014, 10:44 AM

It is extremely easy to remove see hide from an NPC. All I need is individual proof that an individual NPC should not see.

As requested; this post is from 3/31/2000

http://www.thesafehouse.org/forums/showthread.php?t=28

"List of Creatures That Can See Through Hide
Dragons (Vox and Nagafen)
Fire Giants
Scorn Banshees
Lichs
Loathing Lichs
Evil Eyes
Huge Elemental (Lower Guk)"

Nirgon

07-15-2014, 11:27 AM

This is 100% due to sneak and has nothing to do with Hide. Nothing in the game should ever be able to see anyone (rogue or not) who has sneak activated and is in the mob's rear arc, regardless of Hide or other invis factors. The tricky part is GETTING to the mob's rear arc without being seen, which rogue hide helps you do.

If hide helps you get behind without being seen already, what's the point of sneak having a positional mechanic? I think you guys are wanting hide/sneak to have the "behind the mob" functionality at all times (even when not behind).

Honestly, if Rogean played a rogue for as long as he says he did and during vanilla-Velious... I have to give him authority on the matter (well, I think he has it anyway obvi). He's not a content/mechanic twisting scummy. Except mabe overnerfing drains cuz of Salty hoopin'.

Remove item recharging, revert hoop nerf!

koros

07-15-2014, 11:49 AM

If hide helps you get behind without being seen already, what's the point of sneak having a positional mechanic? I think you guys are wanting hide/sneak to have the "behind the mob" functionality at all times (even when not behind).

Honestly, if Rogean played a rogue for as long as he says he did and during vanilla-Velious... I have to give him authority on the matter (well, I think he has it anyway obvi). He's not a content/mechanic twisting scummy. Except mabe overnerfing drains cuz of Salty hoopin'.

Remove item recharging, revert hoop nerf!

Sneaks positional mechanic is very important, in fact the skill is useless without it, other than letting rogues move when hidden.

Take a hypothetical room with 2 mobs facing each other. One sees invis, one does not. A rogue might be able to be invisible to both, by being in the rear arc of the see invis one, and having hide blocking the normal one. A non-rogue wouldn't be able to do this.

If rogue sneak/hide is not 100% at 60 something is wrong. Here's proof straight from Kendrick (Classic dev and official rogue advocate)

http://www.thesafehouse.org/forums/showthread.php?t=2857

"Faster Sneak Starting at 51st, you begin to move faster while sneaking. By 60th level, you are at a full run, and this combines with any speed spells. SoW sneaking, anyone?"

Scrubosaur

07-15-2014, 11:50 AM

If hide helps you get behind without being seen already, what's the point of sneak having a positional mechanic? I think you guys are wanting hide/sneak to have the "behind the mob" functionality at all times (even when not behind).[/B]

If you don't see the difference please stop posting on the subject. Hide normally acts as an invisibility check vs a mob, and sneak always makes you indifferent to anything in the rear 180 degrees (you are sneaking, duh). Rogue is the only class that can sneak and hide at the same time as an ability. This ability is different than the normal sneak or hide that work independently as stated above. This ability is better than normal hide because it should make you invisible vs undead and many other mobs that normally see through invisibility spells or other classes hide ability. The sneak portion works the same as normal sneak; so even IF a mob sees though ROGUE hide but you are in the rear 180 degrees the mob will be indifferent.

Shiftin

07-15-2014, 02:44 PM

If rogue sneak/hide is not 100% at 60 something is wrong. Here's proof straight from Kendrick (Classic dev and official rogue advocate)

http://www.thesafehouse.org/forums/showthread.php?t=2857

"Faster Sneak Starting at 51st, you begin to move faster while sneaking. By 60th level, you are at a full run, and this combines with any speed spells. SoW sneaking, anyone?"

This. Kanras told me in PMs this is governed by the client, so it's not something they can fix? I know lots of things previously governed by the client have been overridden and this one is pretty significant.

Ele

07-17-2014, 01:16 PM

Scrubosaur

07-17-2014, 01:27 PM

http://www.thesafehouse.org/forums/showthread.php?t=2865
Rogue FAQ; Posted August 2000; Last edited July 2001 (Velious Era)

2.4.2 What is the benefit of Sneak-Hide?
Using sneak and hide at the same time (Sneak-Hide) allows a rogue to move while invisible to most mobs and players! The rogue is "invisible" to most mobs and players with the exception of those that can cast "See Invisible". Unlike the spell "Invisibility", sneak-hide has unlimited duration until turned off (like Hide), a spell is cast on the rogue by a spellcaster/bard, or the rogue zones. Sneak-Hide also works against both Undead creatures and regular creatures. However, there is always a minute chance of any mob seeing through your Sneak-Hide and detecting you. Starting at 51st level, you begin to move faster while sneaking. By 60th level, you are at a full run, and this combines with any speed spells.

This skill is highly valued for maneuvering in dungeons, scouting or corpse recovery.

As to the bold parts - The rogue is "invisible" to most mobs and players with the exception of those that can cast "See Invisible" - it should most likely read - The rogue is "invisible" to most mobs and players with the exception of those PLAYERS that can cast "See Invisible" - as I am unaware of any mobs that purposely cast see invis on other mobs (but possible). You also should have put in bold - a minute chance - as that is the exact opposite of what is on p99.

Nirgon

07-17-2014, 01:30 PM

No I completely get it. You want sneak+hide to work like you're always behind the mob. Rogean knows it isn't the case. Glhf going over his head. Its not going to be shroud of stealth, accept it.

Velerin

07-17-2014, 01:35 PM

I don't think he's saying that. Think all the rogues are just saying the same thing. There are two levels of see invis in mobs, reg see invis and see invis+hide. There were definitely see invis mobs that didn't see hide. Sol B kobolds for instance did not see hide, but sol B bats saw both. Safehouse was one of the best EQ resources back in the day and I trust most the stuff on there.
I don't even play a rogue here but I feel bad for the ones that do after last nerf.

Scrubosaur

07-17-2014, 01:45 PM

No I completely get it. You want sneak+hide to work like you're always behind the mob. Rogean knows it isn't the case. Glhf going over his head. Its not going to be shroud of stealth, accept it.

This guy. He must have had some pull with the devs back in the day. Now it seems like he gets his jollies off of trolling the server with undocumented tweaks he would like to see because he either "he knows someone" or he "remembers how it should be". If you don't believe me take a look at his channeling thread, necro recourse thread, or his comments in this thread.

Rhambuk

07-17-2014, 02:04 PM

[/QUOTE=Ele;1538310] Unlike the spell "Invisibility", sneak-hide has unlimited duration until turned off (like Hide), a spell is cast on the rogue by a spellcaster/bard, or the rogue zones.[QUOTE]

I hated this

Nirgon

07-17-2014, 04:07 PM

This guy. He must have had some pull with the devs back in the day. Now it seems like he gets his jollies off of trolling the server with undocumented tweaks he would like to see because he either "he knows someone" or he "remembers how it should be". If you don't believe me take a look at his channeling thread, necro recourse thread, or his comments in this thread.

The funny thing is, when it was tested on eqmac or in untouched areas on Live... it is discovered I'm almost always right :). I'm right about necro recourse and channeling too... as channeling will eventually be investigated and fixed by Haynar :cool:.

You aren't going to get shroud of stealth level hide/sneak here, its not classic. Be behind the mob or be seen.

Honestly I did look high and low and on safehouse/wayback machine. Truthfully, I would want it to be implemented correctly, even if I was wrong about my assertion and I'd own up to being wrong.

But the truth is, there would be loads of information saying "just have a rogue sneak through to check if the mob is up as it cannot be tracked from the zone in" or "have a rogue pull everyone's corpses after a wipe"... but as it turns out... all the pulling of corpses is being done by monks (hi2u 0 cast time FD) or necro coffins in raid zones and all the checking for mobs being up is done by trackers. If rogues were able to very easily just hide/sneak in front of things that could ordinarily see invisible and get past them, there'd be MUCH more data about it. Just like how I said there should be much more about necros being able to dispel the recourse from their healing... it just wasn't possible.

My evidence is based on the rogue epic part of hate, which has the most information. It basically says be careful because some things can see you and some can't, same as invis/itu combo.

Again, I'd rather the classic implementation goes in and I'm wrong.. than it doesn't and I can pretend to be right. There's always a strong following of people coming after my posts when the change inconveniences them. But as we all well know, this isn't the making friends section, this is the make it classic section.

Oh, and it is a fix not a nerf :).

koros

07-17-2014, 04:29 PM

The funny thing is, when it was tested on eqmac or in untouched areas on Live... it is discovered I'm almost always right :).

You aren't going to get shroud of stealth level hide/sneak here, its not classic. Be behind the mob or be seen.

Honestly I did look high and low and on safehouse/wayback machine. Truthfully, I would want it to be implemented correctly, even if I was wrong about my assertion and I'd own up to being wrong.

But the truth is, there would be loads of information saying "just have a rogue sneak through to check if the mob is up as it cannot be tracked from the zone in" or "have a rogue pull everyone's corpses after a wipe"... but as it turns out... all the pulling of corpses is being done by monks (hi2u 0 cast time FD) or necro coffins in raid zones and all the checking for mobs being up is done by trackers. If rogues were able to very easily just hide/sneak in front of things that could ordinarily see invisible and get past them, there'd be MUCH more data about it. Just like how I said there should be much more about necros being able to dispel the recourse from their healing... it just wasn't possible.

My evidence is based on the rogue epic part of hate, which has the most information. It basically says be careful because some things can see you and some can't, same as invis/itu combo.

Again, I'd rather the classic implementation goes in and I'm wrong.. than it doesn't and I can pretend to be right. There's always a strong following of people coming after my posts when the change inconveniences them. But as we all well know, this isn't the making friends section, this is the make it classic section.

Oh, and it is a fix not a nerf :).

Nirgon, I played a rogue. It was superior to invis. Devs basically stopped caring about it being better than invis in Velious. But in seb I could move around decently freely (1 in... 25ish? saw me), hate always had things that could see rogues. Again I cite the list from the safehouse of things that could see hide. I don't really get where your silly claim that we want it to be like sneak+hide when behind a mob, but at all times.

Dragons (Vox and Nagafen)
Fire Giants
Scorn Banshees
Lichs
Loathing Lichs
Evil Eyes
Huge Elemental (Lower Guk)

Lich's and Banshees saw it, which is why hate wasn't a sure thing.

Scrubosaur

07-17-2014, 04:29 PM

Check all the links in this thread and it is pretty clear what saw through hide/sneak and what didn't. In fact since you are talking about Hate the links specifically state that the Loathing Lich's see through hide/sneak. And there are posts also stating that mobs have a minute chance of seeing through hide/sneak. On p99 there is no minute chance, in fact there is a huge chance that mobs will see through hide/sneak in almost every dungeon. If that part of p99 is broken (the enormous amount of see invis/hide/sneak mobs) then maybe that is what needs to be fixed. Maybe there weren't enough see invis/sneak/hide mobs around back in 1999-2001 to warrant a discussion on the topic. But as previously stated in the safehouse.com forums there were specific mobs that saw through hide/sneak as well as a minute chance at a random mob being able to see through hide/sneak.

Dullah

07-22-2014, 01:37 PM

No I completely get it. You want sneak+hide to work like you're always behind the mob. Rogean knows it isn't the case. Glhf going over his head. Its not going to be shroud of stealth, accept it.

Sorry dude, you're wrong about this one. Aside from my very vivid memories of rogues dragging corpses to the zone-in in sebilis and every other dungeon in the game as well as ganking our xp groups in the disco (neither of these things are possible on P99), the evidence that rogue hide was more than just inv+ivu is like 10:1 to that off opposing evidence. Theres numerous references to complete lists of mobs that see 60 rogue hide during this era and you could p much count them on one hand.

Rogean was like 10 yrs old during this era, gtfo of here with that shit.

Tuffpuppy

07-22-2014, 07:47 PM

Sorry dude, you're wrong about this one. Aside from my very vivid memories of rogues dragging corpses to the zone-in in sebilis and every other dungeon in the game as well as ganking our xp groups in the disco (neither of these things are possible on P99), the evidence that rogue hide was more than just inv+ivu is like 10:1 to that off opposing evidence. Theres numerous references to complete lists of mobs that see 60 rogue hide during this era and you could p much count them on one hand.

Rogean was like 10 yrs old during this era, gtfo of here with that shit.

Lolno... Monks were the primary corpse pullers in classic through Velious. Especially in places like Sebilis. This fix seems pretty spot on from my recollection. In devs we trust.

R Flair

07-22-2014, 08:14 PM

Lolno... Monks were the primary corpse pullers in classic through Velious. Especially in places like Sebilis. This fix seems pretty spot on from my recollection. In devs we trust.

uh, what? Nah, draggin corpses was like the rogue specialty. Never asked monks to FD past casters when rogues could walk right past them with sneak/hide.

Tuffpuppy

07-22-2014, 11:21 PM

uh, what? Nah, draggin corpses was like the rogue specialty. Never asked monks to FD past casters when rogues could walk right past them with sneak/hide.

Too many random mobs saw through it. Was neither a rogue nor a monk but in most places, not all the monks were the ones dragging. Think you guys are too used to having that AA, or playing on other emu servers. This is classic.

Scrubosaur

07-23-2014, 01:05 AM

More info off of Alla explaining rogue sneak/hide :

"At lower levels, sneaking causes rogues to walk or run very slowly. At level 51, you begin to speed up (gradually with each level) to an unnoticable difference at level 60.

Even with a well developed ability with both skills, there are still a number of NPCs that can see a sneak/hidden rogue, such as liches and banshees in Plane of Hate."

Once again it mentions mobs in Plane of Hate that we have already listed as being able to see through Hide/Sneak. It does not mentions kobolds in solb, tons of frogs in seb, or all the casters in sola. It uses an example we already know to be true as per safehouse forums. It also states that rogue speed should increase to almost normal movement in 60 which we don't have on p99.

Nirgon

07-23-2014, 09:12 AM

Rogean was like 10 yrs old during this era, gtfo of here with that shit.

You play a rogue here, Rogean presumably doesn't. Hhhhhmmm.

Scrubosaur

07-23-2014, 01:13 PM

I can understand how people say that monks did the corpse dragging. At least on my server, monks outnumbered rogues probably 25 to 1. Our guild had only 1 raiding rogue and like 10 monks. I am not sure if it was like that on other servers, but it was on Tholuxe Paells.

Ele

07-23-2014, 05:11 PM

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.games.everquest/MtF-ZQCJP2o/dCznFZ2jIQwJ
Okay, never played a rogue before, nor a dark elf, so a few questions
>here:
>
>- if I succeed at sneaking ('as quiet as a cat stalking it's prey'
>instead of 'quiet as a herd of running elephants') does that mean nothing
>can see me?

Things can see you. They will not however, go aggro on you if you are
behind them. A successful sneak + hide together will give you Rogue
invisibility, which works on both living and unliving things at the same
time.

>- does 'hide' ever go up in skill or is there always going to be a chance
>of it failing at the wrong time?

Hide does go up eventually. Remember that it's a racial skill for dark
elves, and starts at a skill level of 50 or so, higher than possible to
attain at level 1. Past 100 skill, you'll never fail to hide. Same with
sneak. There are mobs that can see invis (Well, more like X-ray vision,
considering you're not suppose to be in plain sight), or have a chance
of being spawned able to see you depending on your level (Though you'll
mainly have to worry about that 50+).

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.games.everquest/6_ZH1Qrftro/mGUVY0rouRoJ
Kobolds in Sol B apparently see through Invis. My rogue can go anywhere
in the kobold areas of Sol B without detection, including the front arcs. I
can't verify that kobolds see through invis, but when I claimed they didn't
(based on my rogue's experiences) I was plastered here so I assume they do.
8)

That's the rub. Some stuff is "born" seeing invisible. Hide may or may
not work on them. Kobolds in Sol B do NOT see through invis by
default, but many of 'em have a friendly neighborhood shaman come
by and cast See Invisible on them. That spell sees through everything.
If you're lucky and can stay out of the front arc you can still sneak,
however, but even monks can do that.
It's just like the frogs in Guk. None of 'em are spawned seeing
invisible except some of the named (frenzied, assassin, etc), but many
times if you happen to be near, for instance, an Urd Ghoul Wizard
you'll see one of his buffs being See Invisible. And he'll cast it
on all his friends nearby, too.

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.games.everquest/asscaj84Vqs/WpqJkLVGAq4J

The only way I know of to be simultaneously invis to both
regular and undead mobs is to be a Rogue using Hide/Sneak.

Guide to Getting Mask of Deception
https://web.archive.org/web/20020812060037/http://pub35.ezboard.com/fthesafehouselibraryreadonly.showMessage?topicID=9 3.topic
The only thing on the way you should run into that can see through your hide/sneak is the large and giant heart spiders.

there will be ghouls here, so don't jump out of the water unless you have a way by them (itu or sneak/hide).

At the end of this hall is the spider/bat room. The spiders and bats can't see thru my invis but it is unknown to me if it is level based, if you hug the left wall and move quick thou they won't see you. Now you are in another hall, head down it aways and once you start turning hug the right wall. To your left you will see a room full of about 5 greater ice boned skeletons. Hugging the right wall they won't see you but they don't see my sneak/hide.

Now be very careful, if there isn't a group at the camp because the assassin can see thru rogue hide (although sneak will work on him as long as you are behind him of course).

R Flair

07-23-2014, 05:54 PM

Too many random mobs saw through it. Was neither a rogue nor a monk but in most places, not all the monks were the ones dragging. Think you guys are too used to having that AA, or playing on other emu servers. This is classic.

Monk drag maybe plane of hate if the rogue sucks. Other than that a mid 50s to 60 rogue almost completely undectectable. You obviously misremember due to playing later expansions of EQ or EMUs too much.

Scrubosaur

07-23-2014, 06:30 PM

Maybe part of the problem on p99 are mobs casting see invis on each other. In classic EQ, I am pretty sure that mobs didn't have access to a full spell book which would explain why less mobs saw through hide/sneak. If mobs that cast see invis did not have that in their spell book then that would limit the mobs that see through hide/sneak to those that are innately spawned with the ability.

derpcake

07-24-2014, 06:03 AM

I did lots of CRs from shroom king using sneak / hide as a 56 rogue, in kunark.

Drag corpses to bridge below beetle area, use lower zone out, zone in again, drag corpses up and bag to ZI.

A very small percentage of mobs saw through sneak hide.

http://kyros.info/Rogue/Ragebringer.php

"The undead in the Plane of Hate will see through sneak/hide and normal invis, but other than that, you should be able to reach the book without too much trouble."

Makese sense that sebilis would be pretty safe to navigate, slightly less dangerous then PoH, which was low risk by itself.

Yay solo book fetching!

derpcake

07-24-2014, 06:50 AM

This was while with illuminati sancti on xegony, before velious was around. I quit not too long after velious, so its not an AA issue or so.

Don't have a rogue, nor ambitions to make one, just bothers me a lot that this is left as is. Not classic.

Rhambuk

07-24-2014, 07:49 AM

Rogue Strike!
Rogue Strike!
Rogue Strike!

Ele

07-24-2014, 10:55 AM

So many threads and back-and-forth from so many people what exactly is the point of contention anymore?

Is it too many mobs casting "see invis" on themselves and their nearby friends?

Is it that the buff "see invis" can see through rogue sneak/hide?

Is it that only certain mobs (see ex. Safehouse list) should spawn seeing through rogue sneak/hide and nothing else even with "see invis" buff?

Shiftin

07-24-2014, 01:13 PM

There's universal agreement that the run speed is still jacked up, and there are various ways that "too many things seeing hide" can be addressed.

Dullah

07-24-2014, 08:22 PM

So many threads and back-and-forth from so many people what exactly is the point of contention anymore?
Fixing a class that doesn't work properly, especially on a pvp server where rogues could use mobs to their advantage being the only ones able to hide behind them without risk of aggro.

Is it too many mobs casting "see invis" on themselves and their nearby friends?
No, that doesn't happen on p99. Its just mobs flagged see invis that also see hide which should be different.

Is it that the buff "see invis" can see through rogue sneak/hide?
No, casted see invis isn't the issue on p99, they see from the second they spawn.

Is it that only certain mobs (see ex. Safehouse list) should spawn seeing through rogue sneak/hide and nothing else even with "see invis" buff?

Very few mobs should be able to see 60 rogues, and mobs shouldn't even cast see invis. Its a misconception that mobs that see invis somehow had it cast on them. Its just a flag like anything else.

Scrubosaur

08-26-2014, 11:41 AM

We have shown the proof. Can we get rogues classic?!

Scrubosaur

09-01-2014, 10:17 PM

Fixed for the next patch?

Scrubosaur

09-02-2014, 11:53 AM

Nirgon

09-02-2014, 12:41 PM

the assassin can see thru rogue hide

Okay now this I do remember. But did he also see through invis to undead?

To be fair, I've continued keeping an eye out in my digging and did find some references to that sneak/hide being ONLY invis/2undead is a bit overkill. So I'm back with koros on this.

I think the good news here is that there aren't too many mobs out there that should be exceptions to this rule and that Velious (going forward) is MUCH better documented as far as people during the era making guides/posting experiences.

Haynar

09-02-2014, 12:55 PM

I can look at what they have coded and set in the db. Have some ideas on how to do ran chance to see thru sneak/hide.

H

Cecily

09-02-2014, 01:26 PM

Plane of Hate mobs are however completely wrong atm. Lichs should see rogue hide, they were the primary danger in getting your book solo. They don't. Banshees should see rogue hide also. They don't. Golems should scowl but not agro. Innoruuk and Maestro might, probably should see rogues. Nothing else in Hate should see rogue hide. All sorts of wrong mobs seeing rogues atm, particularly revs.

Mobs:

There are 14 different mobs in Hate, and each is different.

Cleric of Innoruuk - Cleric - They look like a Dark Elf guard. They have high magic resist, so harder to mez, and they love to complete heal. They also buff the mobs they pass with cleric buffs. Keep them stunned (bash/ slam) while fighting and kill them fast. They drop cleric gear. They do not see rogues or even normal invisible. They have a normal aggro range.

Ire Ghast - undead Shadow Knight - They look like a ghoul and have low magic resist, so easy to mez, but love to HarmTouch, and do it a lot. Undead magic works on them. They drop some Paladin weapons (mace and sword) and a shield, and can also drop the druid shield, though extremely rare. They do not see rogues, but do see normal player invisible (although invis to undead would work). They have a small aggro range.

Revultant Rat - Warrior - They look like a giant diseased rat and have low magic resist, but proc Deadly Poison. Only drop is a Ranger Whip. They do not see rogues, but may or may not see normal invis (some do, some don't). They have a small aggro range.

Spite Golem - Shaman - They look like a rock golem. They have insane magic resist (although poison, disease, and the wizard Lure spells will usually stick). This is the most important target most times. If you get 2, one warrior, usually the backup assist, will keep second one busy while the group kills number 1. It is possible to kill several, but very, very tough, so be careful. They love to cast SoW and other Alacrity on everything close to them. They drop shaman armor including a shield, and a druid shield. They do not see a rogue, but see everything else. They have a large aggro range.

Loathing Lich - undead Wizard - They look like a spectre and have very low magic resist but more hp than most mobs in Hate, plus are undead so undead magic works well, so usually easy kills. But they will cast the wizard damage shield (the annoying 2 damage spam shield). They drop a Necromancer rod. They DO see a rogue as well as anything else. *** BE CAREFUL *** They have a small self-aggro range, but will pass chain-aggro other mobs a very large range.

Abhorrent - Rogue - They look like gargoyles and have very low magic resist, but love to backstab, so make sure the puller is careful pulling them. They drop rogue gear. They do not see rogues or normal invisible. They have a small aggro range.

Haunted Chest - Warrior - They look like a bog box with teeth. They will proc a Nullify Magic, so they will strip your buffs. They can drop any armor item from the Planes of Fear, and possibly from Hate. They do not see a rogue, but do see others. They have an extremely small aggro range and are very slow. When pulling, the puller has to stay close, or the box will forget and go home. They even aggro other mobs at a very short range. Boxes spawn only in fixed locations. They are not on any other spawn table.

Kiraikueis - undead Monk - They look like a mummy and have low magic resist. They will proc Strong Disease. They are undead, so undead magic works well on them. They drop warrior gear and a monk Shuriken. They do not see rogues, but do see normal invis, though invis to undead would work. They have a very large aggro range, but a small pass-on range, so they will aggro with anything close, but not aggro the mobs around them... usually.

Scorn Banshee - undead Warrior - They look like a female zombie and have low magic resist, but proc Strong Disease and hit a ton. But undead magic works. They drop Bard gear. They DO see rogues and all invis, including invis to undead, regardless of what con says. *** BE CAREFUL *** They do have a small aggro range, though.

Forsaken Revanant, Male - undead Magician - They look like male vampires and have normal magic resistance. They also cast a mean damage shield and nasty AE direct damage. Undead magic does work. They drop mage gear. They do not see rogues, but do see normal invis. They have normal aggro range.

Forsaken Revanant, Female - undead Enchanter - They look like female vampires and have high magic resistance, but they do not cast charm. They do cast a damage shield, though. Undead magic works. They drop Enchanter gear. They do not see rogues but do see normal invis. They have normal aggro range.

Ashenbone Drake - Necromancer - Looks like a skeletal dragon or a small DracoLiche from Fear. They have high magic resist and love to cast Fear, plus they hit like a tank. They drop a tank axe or a Shadow Knight shield or weapon. They do not see rogues, but do see normal invis. They have an insane aggro range and have been known to aggro stuff across the zone. Be extremely careful on this one's aggro.

Maestro of Rancor - Bard - Looks like Lord Mistmoore, but since he hasn't been seen in a long time, I guess Mistmoore looks like Maestro. He is a Bard, but since NPCs do not use BardSong, you could say he's a warrior. He hits a TON and has an ae lifetap on everything in melee range. And if he has dual weapons, he hits extremely fast. He normally drops 2 items, mostly Bard stuff, though a few monk items and a nice dropable shield. He sees rogues and all normal invis, but his back is usually to the door so no problem. He is the lesser boss of Hate.

http://www.thesafehouse.org/forums/showthread.php?t=285 (http://www.thesafehouse.org/forums/showthread.php?t=2852)

Cecily

09-02-2014, 01:29 PM

I'm dubious as to whether or not "rare" chances to spawn seeing rogues actually happened or not. More than likely, it was a rogue screwing up their invis and thinking they were hidden when they weren't.

If you feel like you have to implement it, something like 1% chance to spawn and self buff with see invis spell for mob classes that can cast that spell. I'm pretty sure that's why loathing lichs (100% chance) should see everyone, for example.

Scrubosaur

09-09-2014, 11:44 AM

Let us never forget.

Crom

09-09-2014, 04:26 PM

Updating the list of things that see hide/sneak -

Dalnir - goos - should see hide/sneak as it is listed
Frontier Mountains - random giants at fort - should not see hide/sneak
SolA - casters and I believe clockworks at castle - should not see hide/sneak
SolB - kobolds - should not see hide/sneak - random bats should
KC - drovlarg guardians - should not see hide/sneak
Seb - a ton of frogs - should rarely see hide/sneak
CoM - goos - should see hide/sneak as it is listed

If anyone else has mobs to add that should or should not see hide/sneak list it here. As a caveat; when I list mob seeing or not seeing hide/sneak I am talking about rogues version of hide/sneak. Also, NO mob should see sneak when you are behind them so in reality I am talking about hide when a mob should or should not see through rogue hide/sneak.

http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/npc.html?id=3651

PARF-Druzzil-Ro
QuoteReply
# Jun 21 2001 at 1:19 PM Rating: Decent
Anonymous
Anonymous
Cinder golbin Shaman can see invisible. they are found throughout the golbin areas of Solusek.
▲ Page top
#Anonymous, Posted: Jun 21 2001 at 1:18 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Cinder golbin Shaman can see invisible. they are found throughout the golbin areas of Solusek.
#Anonymous, Posted: Jun 21 2001 at 1:17 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Cinder golbin wizards can see invisible. they are found throughout the golbin areas of Solusek.

one would think after the hide nerf they would see rogue hide

Scrubosaur

09-09-2014, 05:23 PM

http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/npc.html?id=3651

PARF-Druzzil-Ro
QuoteReply
# Jun 21 2001 at 1:19 PM Rating: Decent
Anonymous
Anonymous
Cinder golbin Shaman can see invisible. they are found throughout the golbin areas of Solusek.
▲ Page top
#Anonymous, Posted: Jun 21 2001 at 1:18 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Cinder golbin Shaman can see invisible. they are found throughout the golbin areas of Solusek.
#Anonymous, Posted: Jun 21 2001 at 1:17 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Cinder golbin wizards can see invisible. they are found throughout the golbin areas of Solusek.

one would think after the hide nerf they would see rogue hide

rogue hide/sneak does not = invisibility

Crom

09-09-2014, 05:46 PM

rogue hide/sneak does not = invisibility

Wasn't that the nerf they changed it to normaly invis plus ivu ?

Scrubosaur

09-09-2014, 06:01 PM

It was incorrectly changed according to the information posted in this thread.

Scrubosaur

09-15-2014, 01:03 AM

waiting for those 3 little words...fixed pending update...

bulbousaur

09-15-2014, 07:11 PM

Same...

Shiftin

09-24-2014, 03:33 PM

bump

4WOFURY

10-01-2014, 02:16 AM

Ouch, still no fix, huh?

Guess I'll go back to doing something else, lol.

Mezzmur

10-11-2014, 01:32 AM

Ouch, still no fix, huh?

Guess I'll go back to doing something else, lol.

WTB!

Baxter

10-22-2014, 07:55 AM

Bump for much needed justice. Why isn't hide on my hotbar anymore, hmm...

Silent

10-22-2014, 10:30 PM

Isn't it being fixed pending next update back to how it was? Can't find a link to it but afaik it is

bulbousaur

10-31-2014, 01:15 PM

Has there been an update which implemented this fix yet?

thieros

10-31-2014, 02:00 PM

Macha

11-11-2014, 07:56 PM

bump for great justice

WolfsongReborn

11-22-2014, 10:40 AM

Yeah, rogue hide is definitely strange here. I remember it's benefit being that damn near nothing could see through it other than very specific mobs and dragons. That's what made it so valuable on raid CR's and whatnot. Here it just seems a combo of invis and invisundead and subject to being seen by any that can see through those.

Then again, I don't remember it being quite so uselessly slow.

Fjolvar

11-23-2014, 09:52 AM

Bump - I've been on strike from playing EQ because my rogue hide is gimped. Please fix this GMs.

Actually I've been really busy and can't play. I just want this fixed >: (

Mud

11-26-2014, 07:23 PM

To the top.

Garg

11-29-2014, 09:22 PM

Both pve and pvp will be patched, but it's important to test potential bugs on the beta server beforehand.

For the love of kittens please let this be updated in the upcoming patch!

bulbousaur

12-01-2014, 02:27 PM

I didn't see anything about this in the patch notes.

4WOFURY

12-02-2014, 12:59 AM

/cry

Droog007

12-02-2014, 12:58 PM

I'm glad that this didn't go through. You guys are asking for too much and you're justifying it with silly posts from the adolescents of yesteryear. Posts, I might add, which can be interpreted very differently than your wishful thinking is allowing you to.

In this thread, post after post people are crying about sneak/hide being worse than regular invis - completely disregarding the power of sneak and invis+ivu (which should not stack at all in spell form, BTW). I think you've also got people getting mixed up with how AWESOME Shroud of Stealth was, and how much time they spent in old world zones AFTER AA's were implemented.

A Pre-SoS hidden rogue has the benefit of invis and ivu. Period. Sneak is where the magic happens. I believe sneak was not 100% infallible though - certain animals seemed to possess senses that made them immune to sneak. I recall making a remark about it once in /gu when a canine mob with its back to me was scowling. And then there are the gifted bats in Guk. This was one of the coolest things about EverQuest... lots of things had sound reasoning behind them, even in a fantasy world ruled by a RNG. Maybe these animals with their extra sensory powers is the reason Invisibility to Animals was ever even developed - ever think of that? Hmm?
I have a hard time believing that there are separate flags on mobs for see invis and see hide. If there is - to which Kanras has alluded - I can only guess that in this case "hide" was short for "shroud of stealth" (which, I feel it's important to note, became synonymous with "rogue hide" after AA's dropped, so crucial was the skill).
Finally, Cecily is posting about undead mobs seeing through regular invis and proposing it as evidence for this fantasy.... one example in many of the aforementioned wishful interpretations. OK, this is probably unfair - in this particular post, Cecily is talking specifically about which mobs can see what in PoH, which I also agree is wrong on P99. SOME liches and SOME banshees should see through hide (as easily as they see through IVU), but not all of them - and that might be it. Most other mobs are either live (and do not see invis) or undead (and do not see through IVU) - but ONLY a rogue should be able to be invis to both of the latter.

All that said - I do think that there are certain zones in P99 that are more difficult to navigate as a rogue than they were on EQC. Probably just need to tone down the chance of a mob spawning with the innate ability to see invis. And another note - I don't think mobs ever casted see invis on themselves or others, but they DID turn to face their target when they casted a buff on a buddy (very important for sneakers)

Droog007

12-02-2014, 01:25 PM

...lots of things had sound reasoning behind them...

See what I did there? :D

4WOFURY

12-02-2014, 03:12 PM

Erati

12-02-2014, 03:15 PM

4WOFURY

12-02-2014, 03:17 PM

by pre-PoP do you mean Luclin aka the introduction of AAs aka what that guy is talking about.....

No, I mean pre-PoP aka before level 63 aka before Shroud of Stealth AA aka what that guy is talking about.

Erati

12-02-2014, 03:25 PM

No, I mean pre-PoP aka before level 63 aka before Shroud of Stealth AA aka what that guy is talking about.

well played

there were zero changes to stealth, hide, sneak, AAs involving sneak/hide during Luclin?

it seems with such a massive thread, that has had Dev attention....there must be a missing puzzle piece the posters are not finding for why the Devs have not made this change

OR

this change involves altering so many different npc's abilities that it has not been touched

4WOFURY

12-02-2014, 03:31 PM

None in SoL that I remember.

Moot point - SoS was a major improvement to hide, as it made it to NOTHING in the old world would see you. As previously stated, I had pictures of me sitting next to Nagafen with it. I'm not looking for SoS capabilities here, just to have a class defining capability put back to the way it was pre-July 2013, as it was in 1999.

I know hide was better pre-PoP than it is currently in P99, as I used to enjoy exploring as a low level rogue. I was able to get all the way to giants in SolB with ease, past the Lava Duct Crawlers and Kobolds - Bat's DID see through hide, but I was usually able to hug the wall to avoid them.

I'm not sure why the change was made. Maybe it was at the same time as invis pulling, to stop that - but that shouldn't affect hide's operation.

Even the devs that have posted have no idea why it was changed. It worked properly a year and a half ago. I couldn't figure out why it was changed, and after finding no one else could either, decided to try to get it corrected.

4WOFURY

12-02-2014, 03:32 PM

As it is, I'd happily reroll a monk. At least they can FD - all we have is the ability to open doors as it stands, and this is incorrect. Rogues are defined as "The Masters of Stealth". We are bell hops and doormen now.

Hell, necromancers and SKs have insta-invis, can IVU, can FD, Necro's can gate and have pets and do quite a lot of DPS.

I'm not looking for class equality here, as I know Verant didn't - but I know rogue's weren't THAT inferior of a class to everything else, and the evidence supports hide being corrected. Again, "Masters of Stealth", used for scouting. On P99, they are the "Masters of Doors".

Droog007

12-02-2014, 08:59 PM

I'm assuming you didn't review any of the factual evidence posted by extremely knowledgable players pre-PoP, such as certain mobs in SolDungA/B seeing thorough invisibility but not hide (kobolds and goblins), as well as the mobs in PoHate that saw through invis/ivu but not hide, and the ones that did see through hide.

Sure, some of the things people posted were originally posted by inexperienced people, but the evidence others and I have posted can not be ignored because of those posts.

I reviewed all of the linked "evidence" in this thread. I didn't find anything that convinced me of the existence of any mob that sees through invis (or IVU), but not pre-SoS hide.

I believe that if there truly is/was 2 different checks for seeing through hide vs. other forms of invisibility in the code, then they were effectively redundant - all mobs (or at least very nearly all) had both flags or neither. Nowhere even close to the very short list you have put forth as complete.

I agree that places like Sol A, Sol B, Plane of Hate, and even Sebilis are wrong - we should be able to maneuver through those places much more easily - but it's not because hide is supposed to be better than invis+ivu.

Scrubosaur

12-03-2014, 03:19 AM

It's either mobs that spawn with innate ability to see through invis shouldn't be able to see through hide/sneak or hide/sneak > invis + itu and only certain special mobs should be able to see a hide/sneak rogue such as specter's, goo's and bosses. One or the other should be fixed.

Erati

12-03-2014, 12:15 PM

or lower the % chance that a mob spawns with the ability to see invis in general

koros

12-03-2014, 12:28 PM

by pre-PoP do you mean Luclin aka the introduction of AAs aka what that guy is talking about.....

Edited because I was replying to a post from yesterday.

There were no invis changes in Luclin. Shroud of Stealth was PoP and was the only big change. Hide was certainly better than invis, as had been noted both via evidence and memory of many players (I played a rogue in a raiding guild from early 2000-2004), problem is Rogean recalls differently.

koros

12-03-2014, 12:36 PM

Baxter

12-03-2014, 12:51 PM

Something isn't right thats for sure, but as it is now sneak/hide is completely useless. I haven't used it in months. Theres just no reason to when I can invis and not be snared.

evilkorn

12-03-2014, 01:04 PM

Kobolds and bugs no longer see hide, my hobbit feet are in full motion to Seb. Expect updates after this reporter moves onto the scene.

Erati

12-03-2014, 01:06 PM

Kobolds and bugs no longer see hide, my hobbit feet are in full motion to Seb. Expect updates after this reporter moves onto the scene.

so there WERE hide changes and people complained before they tested !

evilkorn

12-03-2014, 01:25 PM

Made it down to crypt door with hide, next up shrooms.

Velerin

12-03-2014, 02:09 PM

Great fix for rogues! There is tons of evidence there were see invis creatures that didn't see hide (ie. SolB kobolds). Seb should have some see hide mobs around though that you needed to use sneak to get by. That the case now?

evilkorn

12-03-2014, 02:29 PM

I'm sure once more are killed they should cycle through those.

Erati

12-03-2014, 02:37 PM

I'm sure once more are killed they should cycle through those.

did the shrooms see hide/sneak on your adventure?

did they see hide before?

4WOFURY

12-03-2014, 08:58 PM

Pras!

Hide was certainly better than invis, as had been noted both via evidence and memory of many players (I played a rogue in a raiding guild from early 2000-2004), problem is Rogean recalls differently.

Played a Rogue from '99-'08

Raided casual from '00-'02 and hardcore (8 nights a week doing endgame content) from '02-'08. During the '99-'01 era, my main enjoyment came from sneaking around zones. Something was definitely "off" here.

Kobolds and bugs no longer see hide, my hobbit feet are in full motion to Seb. Expect updates after this reporter moves onto the scene.

Hopes are high!

Droog007

12-04-2014, 01:45 AM

Something isn't right thats for sure, but as it is now sneak/hide is completely useless. I haven't used it in months. Theres just no reason to when I can invis and not be snared.

/facepalm

On the other hand - if we could get it fixed so that invis spells such as the PoSky clicky would ALSO make us invis+ivu, then your statement would only be half as ludicrous.

Droog007

12-04-2014, 01:51 AM

...Hide was certainly better than invis, as had been noted both via evidence and memory of many players (I played a rogue in a raiding guild from early 2000-2004), problem is Rogean recalls differently.

Hide was better than invis. It was invis to undead also (for rogues). Period.

Sneak did more for you than letting you move around while hidden...

Treats

12-04-2014, 05:50 AM

Back to EZ mode...well played

azeth

12-04-2014, 07:17 AM

Evidence for Velious mobs abilities to see through hide/sneak is limited.

My memory says all of Derakor the Vindicator's temple could see through it... but thats just my memory.

koros

12-04-2014, 12:15 PM

Hide was better than invis. It was invis to undead also (for rogues). Period.

Sneak did more for you than letting you move around while hidden...

That's why I said hide and not sneak/hide. I'm aware sneak was a 100% invis from the rear arc. How do you reconcile your claim with the the fact that we've provided evidence of non-undead mobs not seeing through hide but seeing through regular invis?

I don't know why I need to keep posting these, because you're obviously convinced that these era appropriate posts are incorrect, but here again is an example of hide being better:

http://www.thesafehouse.org/forums/forum/everquest-wing/library-read-only/2968-book-of-knowledge-guide-to-the-plane-of-hate

Revultant Rat - Warrior - They look like a giant diseased rat and have low magic resist, but proc Deadly Poison. Only drop is a Ranger Whip. They do not see rogues, but may or may not see normal invis (some do, some don't). They have a small aggro range.

Spite Golem - Shaman - They look like a rock golem. They have insane magic resist (although poison, disease, and the wizard Lure spells will usually stick). This is the most important target most times. If you get 2, one warrior, usually the backup assist, will keep second one busy while the group kills number 1. It is possible to kill several, but very, very tough, so be careful. They love to cast SoW and other Alacrity on everything close to them. They drop shaman armor including a shield, and a druid shield. They do not see a rogue, but see everything else. They have a large aggro range.

Droog007

12-04-2014, 03:15 PM

I don't recall player hide skill ever being a factor. Level 1 (brell) rogues for instance were used in the hole. Where's that sourced from?

Hidden is hidden is hidden... skill level only affected success rate, and later (probably) evade success rate.

Don't make the mistake of locking yourself into thinking that there HAD to be a reason for those 101-200+ skillups in Hide.

Hide just worked - unless you were a noob. Sneak may have had some nuance with skill level, but good luck proving that out.

Droog007

12-04-2014, 03:18 PM

Sneak may have had some nuance with skill level, but good luck proving that out.

Oh wait, all we have to do is find 13 year old post from a now 26 year old man, and read it in a vacuum. Bang - proof, baby!

koros

12-04-2014, 03:30 PM

Hidden is hidden is hidden... skill level only affected success rate, and later (probably) evade success rate.

Don't make the mistake of locking yourself into thinking that there HAD to be a reason for those 101-200+ skillups in Hide.

Hide just worked - unless you were a noob. Sneak may have had some nuance with skill level, but good luck proving that out.

I know. I was saying exactly that in reply to Kanras.

Originally Posted by kanras View Post
It's not perfect. It's just that the first step was reverting the asinine way I changed it last time. There's still things that will eventually see through hide that currently don't:

- See invis spell
- Certain mobs when player hide skill is lower

Maybe more I'm not realizing right now.

And I replied...

I don't recall player hide skill ever being a factor. Level 1 (brell) rogues for instance were used in the hole. Where's that sourced from?

Erati

12-04-2014, 03:33 PM

I don't recall player hide skill ever being a factor. Level 1 (brell) rogues for instance were used in the hole. Where's that sourced from?

well level 1 brell rogues are used in the hole bc the elementals wont attack you when you are on Brell faction

and you have IVU with rogue hide/sneak so you can roam around undead area

I dont think lvl 1 rogues in the hole have anything to do with how effective or not their 'hide' was, it was all about dat faction, being able to be sneak by Golems ( dont know if they usually see hide or not ) and IVU

koros

12-04-2014, 03:38 PM

Post on the sony board is gone, but Treats is pretty reliable:

Treats
07-06-2012, 02:16 PM
Bump on this I guess. From the Sony board:

http://forums.station.sony.com/eq/posts/list.m?topic_id=65689

I noticed something strange this weekened. I have leveled a couple characters through Dreadlands, so I know that all Drolvargs can see invis. However, when my Rogue graduated to there, I found that they do not see Hide. Certain Drolvargs inside KC, namely the ones up in the "lookout" positions, can see me, but the others can't. I am not standing behind them.

What is up with this? My theory is that in addition to certain mobs being marked "See Invis", certain mob *types* can see invis, as well. Such as Undead, Drolvarg, and certain Gnolls. Sneak/Hide does not hide you from mobs flagged "See Invis" (Shroud of Stealth does, in general)... but it *does* hide you from mobs that see invis due to their "type".

Is that how it works? Or am I just remembering things incorrectly?

I assume he is referring to the Drolvarg Guardians in the lookout positions?

Others can't (Sentry's)

If it is flagged due to NPC type it will see through See Invis but not Hide? (See Invisible)

If it is marked as See Invis will see through both invisible and hide/sneak? (See Hide)

Examples:

Sol B Bats -- Use Sonar for detection
Mob type Sees invisible and also flagged to See Invisible (Sees Sneak/Hide)

Drolvarg Sentry -- Mob type will See Invisible but Unflagged to See Invisible (Doesn't See Hide/Sneak)
Drolvarg Guardian -- Mob type will See Invisible and also flagged to See Invisible (Sees Hide/Sneak)

Random See Invisible Sebilite Juggernaut -- Mob type does not See Invisible
Flagged in Database to See Invis so will see Invisible and Hide/Sneak??

How certain Mobs were set to See Invisible (But Not See Invisible by body type)?
Possibly just a random low percentage chance? No idea.

Hope this kinda makes sense. Thoughts?

koros

12-04-2014, 03:43 PM

well level 1 brell rogues are used in the hole bc the elementals wont attack you when you are on Brell faction

and you have IVU with rogue hide/sneak so you can roam around undead area

I dont think lvl 1 rogues in the hole have anything to do with how effective or not their 'hide' was, it was all about dat faction, being able to be sneak by Golems ( dont know if they usually see hide or not ) and IVU

Yeah Kanras was saying certain mobs would see you if your hide skill was low. I was using level 1 rogues as proof that mobs didn't care about hide skill if the check was successful.

Nothing would aggro a hidden level 1 brell rogue there.

Droog007

12-04-2014, 04:31 PM

How do you reconcile your claim with the the fact that we've provided evidence of non-undead mobs not seeing through hide but seeing through regular invis?

I reconcile my claim with experience. I've played since July '99 and a rogue was one of the first classes I tried. Just prior to Kunark launch, it was pretty much all I played, and prior to Velious and extending into Secrets of Faydwer it was ALL I played (sometimes with a shaman bot, and later with mercs). I've been an EQ rogue since before it was cool. However, I got Shroud of Stealth as soon as I could, and all of my experience after that point in time is colored by that. I think most of you guys are simply remembering wrong.

I don't know why I need to keep posting these, because you're obviously convinced that these era appropriate posts are incorrect, but here again is an example of hide being better:

http://www.thesafehouse.org/forums/forum/everquest-wing/library-read-only/2968-book-of-knowledge-guide-to-the-plane-of-hate

Revultant Rat - They do not see rogues, but may or may not see normal invis (some do, some don't).

Spite Golem - They do not see a rogue, but see everything else.

You're partially correct. I read these posts with a grain of salt. I don't pick a post here and there and put it forth as GOSPEL. I've also seen LOTS of evidence in some of the same posts you are linking that simply say rogue hide is invis + ivu. In this example - do you think this kid really went around and made sure to con things either in their frontal arc or with sneak dropped? And further, did he compare those individual results with another class using invis or IVU? I doubt it. I think this kid was having a blast figuring out how to raid hate and made a nice little write-up after a few runs.

The old patch notes are pretty clear, and my experience matches them. We need some zone-by-zone tuning of which mobs can spawn with see invis, and at what rate... but I truly believe this separation of invis and pre-SoS rogue hide is a mistake.

koros

12-04-2014, 05:00 PM

I reconcile my claim with experience. I've played since July '99 and a rogue was one of the first classes I tried. Just prior to Kunark launch, it was pretty much all I played, and prior to Velious and extending into Secrets of Faydwer it was ALL I played (sometimes with a shaman bot, and later with mercs). I've been an EQ rogue since before it was cool. However, I got Shroud of Stealth as soon as I could, and all of my experience after that point in time is colored by that. I think most of you guys are simply remembering wrong.

You're partially correct. I read these posts with a grain of salt. I don't pick a post here and there and put it forth as GOSPEL. I've also seen LOTS of evidence in some of the same posts you are linking that simply say rogue hide is invis + ivu. In this example - do you think this kid really went around and made sure to con things either in their frontal arc or with sneak dropped? And further, did he compare those individual results with another class using invis or IVU? I doubt it. I think this kid was having a blast figuring out how to raid hate and made a nice little write-up after a few runs.

The old patch notes are pretty clear, and my experience matches them. We need some zone-by-zone tuning of which mobs can spawn with see invis, and at what rate... but I truly believe this separation of invis and pre-SoS rogue hide is a mistake.

I played eq exclusively and a rogue then too, from early 2000 til the end of GoD. I'll make a rogue and a different class on eqlive, goto dreadlands/seb/etc, and see if there's any difference in the ability of non-undead mobs to see them.

Droog007

12-04-2014, 07:47 PM

I played eq exclusively and a rogue then too, from early 2000 til the end of GoD. I'll make a rogue and a different class on eqlive, goto dreadlands/seb/etc, and see if there's any difference in the ability of non-undead mobs to see them.

Don't forget to drop sneak - take an ENC along if you want to do some testing on both invis and IVU.

Droog007

12-04-2014, 07:52 PM

well level 1 brell rogues are used in the hole bc the elementals wont attack you when you are on Brell faction

and you have IVU with rogue hide/sneak so you can roam around undead area

I dont think lvl 1 rogues in the hole have anything to do with how effective or not their 'hide' was, it was all about dat faction, being able to be sneak by Golems ( dont know if they usually see hide or not ) and IVU

Right, Erati, but it had to be a Brell ROGUE, because you needed the faction AND the skills to get through the entire place.

Man0warr

12-16-2014, 03:55 PM

Did anyone test these mobs that are supposed to see through classic Rogue sneak/hide?

Dragons (Vox and Nagafen)
Fire Giants
Scorn Banshees
Lichs
Loathing Lichs
Evil Eyes
Huge Elemental (Lower Guk)

Crom

12-17-2014, 02:50 PM

Right, Erati, but it had to be a Brell ROGUE, because you needed the faction AND the skills to get through the entire place.

/This Faction was important vs the summoned and live mobs, rogue /sneak hide vs the undeads

pathius41

07-02-2016, 06:08 AM

So is there any progress on this? rogue sneak seams to still be very messed up atm.

paulgiamatti

07-02-2016, 06:48 AM

Sneak is probably fine, but there are some lingering allegations that the way rogue hide currently works isn't classic. For instance, some people swear that rogues should absolutely not be able to hide + sneak their way through the entirety of Old Sebilis - as it stands, literally every mob in the zone including Trakanon himself can't see you.

I'm not caught up on this thread, but as I understand it they made a big change to rogue hide mechanics awhile back, and gave certain NPCs a specific "See Rogue Hide" attribute. Before this, any mob with "See Invis" could see through rogue hide. Now, you can more or less count the different types of mobs that will see through rogue hide on one hand: Fire Giants, random Plane of Hate 1.0 mobs, VP dragons, ToV flurry drakes & bosses, and everything in Sleeper's Tomb.

TLDR; if anything is going to be changed, go do research. Find irrefutable proof for your case by sourcing your information back to Velious era live, and follow the bug report guidelines posted by Rogean (http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19) and nilbog (http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5570).