Fist of Nature...Again

[wycca]

I was catching up on old Velious Beta related posts. I thought that discussion around FoN being post-Luclin was decent here - http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125800&page=7

I did come upon a piece of evidence that may hint at the FON existing. It's sorta loose, but there's alot from this era that is.

This news update by Legacy of Sorrow - http://www.legacyofsorrow.net/news_november2001.php#top

Relevant Updates-
11-28-01
"Yea i know some people will say that the Wurmscale Fistwraps off Cekenar aren't bad.. 14/18 1hb monk with some good HP but when your monks have Primal Fistwraps along with Tunare Weapons, they aren't going to use Wurmscale Fistwraps over them, so they rot and thus are considered gay loot."

11-17-01
Was their 1st Tunare kill. Sap Encrusted Branch dropped (x1).

Hints at FoN in their Updates-

Evidence #1 -
There was a possible 2nd kill. They discuss "monks" (as in plural), yet the update only shows 1 Sap from their 1st kill. Also they start discussing their good week including a Tunare kill, but the Tunare kill was 11 days before that update.

So, they may have had a 2nd Tunare kill after the 11/17 kill. At that time, a FoN may have dropped. They specifically mention "Tunare weapons" - not a Sap Branch, not a Monk Snare Stick, but weapons, as in plural, ie referring to 2 different monk drops. This lends evidence to a 2nd kill theory and to a possible FoN dropping.

Evidence #2 -
They complain about the Wurmscale Fistwraps rotting because their monks had better. Do a comparison:
Wurmscale Fistwraps are 14/18 with 75hp vs. Sap Encrusted Branch is 14/19 with 0hp (has resists tho).

There is no monk (nor their guild in an update) in their right mind that would argue that 14/19 and a non-dmg proc on the Sap Encrusted Branch is better than 14/18 with 75hp.

The more likely culprit is that they got a FoN. It's 15/18 with 100hp. It's obviously better than the Wurmscale Fistwraps.

Conclusion -
FoN is the only logical explanation for these comments. It may very well have been in as a 1hb pre-Luclin. It should be at least heavily considered as a 1hb on Tunare's loot table.

[Nirgon]

She had the weapons on her drop table pre luclin, lanked this elsewhere but here it is again 4

Mother of All? She's dead Jim..
(http://www.legacyofsorrow.net/news_november2001.php)

[koros]

No actual evidence anywhere of a fist of nature exists until Jan 2002 (as far as I can tell). I really doubt it was on her table and just not publicized. Your arguments are extremely presumptive overall.

[pasi]

Afraid the evidence is overwhelmingly against this item existing in Velious.

1) No posts about the item until 2002. May 23rd, 2002 was the Allakhazam addition. While Allakhazam is not 100% current, 6 months is a huge amount of time.
2) Primal FISTs put in the game in Nov2001 were 1HB, not HtH. The first pictures of Fist of Nature was as a HtH weapon.

[Nirgon]

Yes I'm being very presumptive, for the record.

However I'm not sure they just added 1 more weapon to her table unless there's that one post about "we added a bunch of fist weapons to the game" coming into play here. I don't know exactly when that patch was but I'm willing to bet fist of nature was in there with all of her other loot just like the G-rock on Vulak. Tunare wasn't killed too many times pre-Luclin.

[koros]

searched "fist of nature" tunare on google with end date being 5/1/2002, this is the earliest reference I can find of it.

January 27, 2002: Adairen D`Cursio

Quick update again



Back to back, Tunare and Creator down. Soon enough we'll see High Priest v.2.0 dead. Creator dropped some lame shit. A 2hb that I didn't get a SS of because Sparky ninja'd it too fast and a +5 to Blacksmithing Hammer. GG on the useless shit. Tunare was pretty cool in giving us a few different loots this time. Hopefully a damn earring will drop so I can 42own it with my ghetto DKP. Pollux on Essence of Nature, Dolanyu on Fist of Nature, Girdle of Living Thorns to Garrm, and Sap Encrusted Branch went to Nido.

Was a fun weekend and tomorrow is another AoW attempt and I'm tellin you, that fight is so fun it makes my toes curl up.
/chuckle

[koros]

RE: mob Reply... By: Figgin,
4 posts
Posted @ Fri, May 24th 9:46 AM 2002 Score: Good[3.50]
Drops off Tunare, god of the plane of growth. I have had this weapon for 4 months now and i can tell you that casters absolutely hate monks with this weapon in duals. This thing procs all day long and other than a few high level mobs immune to the snare/root line of spells the weapon is great stats and damage delay. Two thumbs up verant, great weapon to add to the game!

[Nirgon]

Can we also be thinking about when it is said it was added? Or even alluded to being added? That's why I brought up the "fist items added" patch I seem to remember. I'd be happy to think it was added then.

I don't have a monk or tight pixel pals who are monks here, just that I never remember that individual item being added to her loot table at any point.

[koros]

http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=7512

Probably changed when Luclin went live. This was the IVs original drop, only dropped for a couple of weeks max and the SS is HtH.

[pasi]

Didn't mean to imply May of 2002, the consensus on the last thread was that it probably was added with the revamp of her loot and AoW loot.

[koros]

Legacy of Steel 1-18-2001 update:
Currently my the sword resides in my fletching kit along with a Reaver from the Statue of RZ and a Blade of Carnage from the AoW, all eagerly awaiting my next trip to Thurgadin where they will meet their final destination: Tha Hands of Mort.

then...

Patch Jan 23rd

then...

Fist of nature first drop record I can see on 1/27, see previous post.

then...

Then Alla
upgraded?
Quote
Reply
#Feb 16 2002 at 5:13 AMRating: Default
pawz
Scholar
38 posts
heard this was upgraded to 15/20 with 700 proc, anyone confirm?


Case closed for Jan add/upgrade unless evidence is presented?

[Nirgon]

How many Tunare kills were there pre-Luclin tho? Such a small sample size I'd think.

Imagine if 10 ghoul lords were killed before Luclin with the FBSS showing up in Luclin?

[Ele]

How many Tunare kills were there pre-Luclin tho? Such a small sample size I'd think.

Imagine if 10 ghoul lords were killed before Luclin with the FBSS showing up in Luclin?

I'd be amazed even in Luclin. :p

[Ele]

Even the image from Legacy of Sorrow indicates post-Luclin stats (recommended level and H2H)

http://www.legacyofsorrow.net/loot/fistofnature.jpg

http://www.legacyofsorrow.net/loot/fistofnature.jpg

[koros]

How many Tunare kills were there pre-Luclin tho? Such a small sample size I'd think.

Imagine if 10 ghoul lords were killed before Luclin with the FBSS showing up in Luclin?

There probably weren't a ton pre Luclin, although who knows how many FoH/AL/etc did between October? and December. If this was found in December I'd be more inclined to believe it was just a statistical anomaly and was in fact part of her original loot table. Don't forget they changed her loot table previously. First time she died she dropped a "Blade of the Swarm", which was never seen again.

http://lucy.allakhazam.com/item.html?id=30380

[Nirgon]

I'd be amazed even in Luclin. :p

Yaw.

I imagine a world where the fist of nature was currently on her table here and we tried to advocate removing it instead.

[koros]

Server wide I guarantee you there were ~100+ kills by the end of the January of Tunare. It's too long for it to be an end of Jan discovery (in all likelihood) Nirgon.

[Nirgon]

Definitely just my opinion I never killed Tunare on any server, wouldn't mind seeing it added as if there was never a note that it was added that it was probably already on there.

[jaybone]

only thing im seeing from those links are they were clearing shit with 30-40 people and not 3 years of farming kunark. What's going to happen here with 60+ and years of farming kunark?

[Nirgon]

They're going to get their nuts rustled when Lord Yelinak absolutely bodies them if they go for a day 1 kill? Then again maybe there's enough clerics to set up a half second CH rotations or something I dunno lol.

[Rellapse40]

They're going to get their nuts rustled when Lord Yelinak absolutely bodies them if they go for a day 1 kill? Then again maybe there's enough clerics to set up a half second CH rotations or something I dunno lol.

hardest part about yelinak is getting a guild full of morans through the maze

the dragon itself is not that hard at all

[Vamael]

it easy to get to plus evreyone has CoH bots.

[Nirgon]

hardest part about yelinak is getting a guild full of morans through the maze

the dragon itself is not that hard at all

Is that why people here wipe to Hoshkar and Nexona

[Rellapse40]

just b/c 99% of the guilds suck does not mean the mob is hard

[Nirgon]

Think you 99% get my point then sir

[Silent]

Had a Fist of Nature on live blue Tribunal, Got it just around early luclin release. Don't really remember if it WAS in before or not. I do remember that I was one of like 3 monks on the server with it at the time because it was so rare. It was H2H when I got it no 1hb. I don't remember nor did I look up the dates of Luclin release to remember that far back, but 2-3 months later I picked up that ugly fist weapon off vyzdra the cursed in ssra temple that reminded me of stargate Goauld snakes. As nice as this would be to have in game for velious, I really don't think it was. If someone wants to dig deeper for info on it, im all for it. But I think itll be nearly impossible to find any proof. Like one of the other posters said, technically could have been on the loot table and just never dropped until after.

[wycca]

I've kept digging at this.

I now think there's enough evidence to suggest that this weapon may have been added 10/08/01 or 11/07/01 -

Please start in my first post and come back, then please check my Gharn's thread here - http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=157586

Lastly, in order to debunk many of the claims made by previous posters (wasn't in the game until 2002, hundreds of Tunare kills and nothing showed up, 6 months is a long time for a weapon to not show up, etc) - I give you - http://eq.magelo.com/item/5776

An initial magelo entry of 12/24/01 - Over a month before people's "first kill" theory.

The 10/08/01 patch discussed melee revamps, it specifically addressed some weapon availability, specifically mentioning knights. It also introduced (but not in patch notes for whatever reason), a slew of monk weapon updates and additions. It added Primal/priceless Velium Fist Wraps, it added the Fist of Lightning, and there is every indication given my prior research/points that the FoN was in the game significantly before people said it was. Items often took awhile (even 4-6 months) to end up in magelo - witness the Fist of Lightning which was clearly added 10/8/01 but didn't show up in magelo's database until April of 2002! They also, as proven by Magelo, sometimes took (at least a month) to end up in some guild's update. Why is it a stretch to believe it wasn't a drop for Legacy of Sorrow (as is quite clearly hinted at) and on the drop table pre-Luclin? The indicators given by previous posters are largely flawed and at least partially debunked by the Magelo, and I think I've just successfully pushed back the time frame even further on when this item was actually in-game, and given credible support to the theory that it likely was added in on 10/08/01.

10/08 OR 11/07 theory based on Tunare loot revamp - There are no mentions of anything related to Tunare loot revamps in any patch messages before the Magelo date of 12/24/01, back to the 10/08/01 patch date I highlighted. They were largely focused on fixing all of the horrible Luclin launch issues, graphics bugs, etc in that time frame. I'd also like to point out that Tunare's loot underwent an intermediate upgrade at some point. The loot upgrade was DEFINITELY in the game by 11/10/01, please see -
- http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=7026 (item added 11/10/01 to Magelo)
- http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=7026 - the 2 comments at Nov 14 2001 at 7:06 PM from Scotty and TruKing discussing an upgrade
- http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=7040&p=2#comments - the 2 comments at Nov 20 2001 at 7:27 PM from Megummi and Calimyr

Ergo, ample evidence that her loot table was adjusted pre-Luclin, the possible patch dates are 10-08-01 (for all the reasons above plus the time necessary to generate magelo entries & allas comments & get kills & circulate loot amongst playerbase for comments) and all dates up until 11/10/01 (the earring magelo entry) - there were patches between those dates on 10/31, 11/07, and 11/08. The 10/31 patch was a tiny patch and mainly focused around Halloween events, the 11/07 patch is a potential culprit as it was a large patch, and the 11/08 patch was a small emergency patch. The only two options 10/08 and 11/07 IMO.

Now consider this - So the Fist was definitely in game as of 12/24/01. They significantly reviewed Tunare's loot table - most likely 10/08/01 or 11/07/01, as evidenced by item upgrades around that time frame. They also added and upgraded several monk weapons in the 10/08/01 patch....where they also mentioned future upgrades to monk weapons. They could have been referring to the monk weapon upgrades they did put in (but failed to put in patch notes, ie a mis-communication) which could have included the Fist AND tunare changes, or it's possible that they knew a Tunare revamp was due and added a monk weapon with that (either 10/08 or 11/07). Either way, there's little reason to believe that while Luclin hell was going on for the dev team they came back and added *1* item to her loot table prior to the 12/24 Magelo entry...and didn't instead just add it either in the 10/08 monk item revamp.....or a potential 10/08 or 11/07 Tunare item revamp.

The fist WAS quite clearly in the game much much earlier than people are saying, and there is quite a bit of logical evidence that suggests it was probably added in either the monk item revamp (10/08) or a tunare loot revamp (10/08 or 11/07)....both of which occured pre-Luclin.

[Loke]

I'd agree there is enough evidence to work under the assumption that the item was in game sometime before Luclin, unless proven otherwise. We let Trakanon drop a Ton Po's, which never happened on any live server (Only dropped on Test, possibly a GM event on Stormhammer, and Casinos - Jojo is only monk who ever had one on live prior to casinos, I just can't remember if it was from test and transferred to live via stormhammer, or was attained on stormhammer), so I think allowing it on the loot table, possibly at the same time as the weapon upgrades is consistent with server precedent.

I'm all about classic, but I don't see what the big deal is. Gharn's is a superior weapon after the upgrade, so it isn't like having FoN in game is that big of a deal. Much less so than Ton Po's imo.

[pasi]

Wycca,

The exact date that we pinned on the item is far less important than what side of the Velious/Luclin fence that the item falls on.

12/24/2001 still puts this on the Luclin side of the fence.

This was an item with a medium drop rate on an NPC that was killed very regularly on (almost?) every server after her loot leaked. You're attributing Fist of Nature to the 11/07/2001 patch. Luclin was 12/04/2001. That's nearly a month later. Furthermore, the magelo date you have is 20 days post-Luclin. The other loot that was patched in was discovered shortly (days) after patching. This does leave a scenario where the Fists were either added and not dropping or had such a low drop rate that no-one server wide managed to get any.

However, even if we go off these unlikely explanations, there is still the hand-to-hand and required level argument as well. The Primal FISTs that went into the game on 11/07 were 1 HB. The earliest known Fist of Nature was a HtH Weapon. Why would they not introduce HtH weapons with Primal/Priceless Fistwraps also? In addition, why would they wait until post-Luclin to patch all the other Velious items with a required level tag?

The argument against the Fist of Nature existing pre-Luclin is a pretty strong one at this point. I hope this doesn't stop you from continuing to look for evidence against this case as we could be very wrong.