100 MR to resist MR nuke. 350 FR to reduce FR nuke.

[Mac Drettj]

There's a bug somewhere.

It's been here since launch.

There are no PvP developers.

[no chewie dont]

i almost partialed pillar of frost once but it turns out it was just my rune

[Haynar]

Interesting. Will see what I can figure out.

H

[Colgate]

pras

[Haynar]

No clue on initial checks. Don't see what FR would be different.

H

[Colgate]

null had placed something in the pvp resist code that made direct damage nukes unresistable; they can be partialed, but not completely resisted. it's horrible and nowhere close to classic.

the reason MR nukes are able to be resisted here is because they're ones with stun components.

i'm pretty sure nirgon has pretty much as close to classic pvp resist code as you can get, but on that note it's entirely classic to be able to fully resist direct damage nukes; in kunark the only straight up direct damage nukes that people used reliably were lures and lifetaps because everything else against a geared player would be 100% resisted or partialed to hell.

[Haynar]

That looks like the code i was looking at associated with partials. There are different calcs for "pure nukes". Probably where this issue lies.

Based on what I understand, only partials would be a pure nuke, with just a damage component. The damage component being in the first slot. Lure type spells, look like they have that in the 2nd slot.

So outside of lures, pure damage nukes, have would have different checks compared to a magic check with a stun component.

So that is probably the problem code. A lot of what null has in there is pretty neat, but that partial code seems "non-classic"

H

[Colgate]

i would imagine lures would fall under the same category as other direct damage nukes, the only difference is that they have a -300 modifier which made them pretty much impossible to full resist or even partial in this era

[Dullah]

Permitted a spell doesn't have added effects like enchanter nukes that also stun, no reason they should get resisted.

I understand that the thresholds for resists are pushed up higher to account for velious resists, but if you are breaking 120 in a resist (the point you become immune to root/snare), you should be getting partials. That threshold was like 80 on live.

[Haynar]

Gonna have to throw a lot of this into spreadsheets and play the what if game.

Will get it ironed out.

H

[Technique]

i would imagine lures would fall under the same category as other direct damage nukes, the only difference is that they have a -300 modifier which made them pretty much impossible to full resist or even partial in this eraAny tweaks to the resist code should be mindful of the fact that resists aren't capped at 255 on this server.

[Infectious]

Hay the god!

[Nirgon]

Pras hph

[Haynar]

It looks like root in pvp won't break early (cept if ur nuked) in the code.

Is this right?

Working on that FR/MR discrepancy.

I also need details on what kinds of spells are not resisted correctly.

H

[Haynar]

Any tweaks to the resist code should be mindful of the fact that resists aren't capped at 255 on this server.
I am about to cap shit to 255, like real soon.

H

[Colgate]

It looks like root in pvp won't break early (cept if ur nuked) in the code.

Is this right?

Working on that FR/MR discrepancy.

I also need details on what kinds of spells are not resisted correctly.

H

i believe melee damage also has a chance to break a root

bard stuns in general seem to be much more powerful than they should be, most notably denon's bereavement(point blank poison based aoe stun, DoT, and -MR debuff) and bruscoe's bombastic bellow(single target magic based nuke + long duration stun)

i also recall bard mezzes landing quite a lot when they shouldn't

rogue poisons, most notably the blind ones, also shouldn't be landing as often and at least the blind ones certainly shouldn't be full duration every time(being blinded for 78 seconds is just ridiculous)

the largest problem is with pure direct damage nukes being impossible to resist and requiring very high of the associated resist in order to begin partially resisting them

[Zalaerian]

rogue poisons, most notably the blind ones, also shouldn't be landing as often and at least the blind ones certainly shouldn't be full duration every time(being blinded for 78 seconds is just ridiculous)


This needs to be addressed pronto imo due to velious on the horizon. Blind whips destroy pvp

[Pudge]

i'd be careful about nerfing spell resists too hard. the goal is good pvp not melee gods. i think the system is fine right now just needs a tad more randomness and ability to very rarely fully resist a nuke

also some low level (like level 8 or 12 or something) wiz+enchanter nukes with .1 sec stuns were unresistable. ppl still loaded them and used them at high levels to interrupt other casters. they had low cast times.

[Tacitus]

Gonna have to throw a lot of this into spreadsheets and play the what if game.

Will get it ironed out.

H

Glad to see a developer exploring into options and issues, thank you for all your work

[Technique]

Rogue blind poison durations were already nerfed.
Alecta: [PvP] Rogue blinds will now last a quarter of their PvE duration, but will have their partials skewed higher.

It looks like root in pvp won't break early (cept if ur nuked) in the code.

Is this right?Chance for root to break on tick in PvP was removed before the server launched.

Technically it's not right/classic, but neither is the fact that the PvP duration of all roots/snares is capped at 5 ticks (in the past it's been said this was due to a clientside limitation, but that seems dubious). As a consequence, DoTs with a snare component (such as the necro darkness line) are also cut off at 5 ticks, which is pretty lame.

[Daldaen]

I am about to cap shit to 255, like real soon.

H

Best post of 2014.

[Haynar]

Rogue blind poison durations were already nerfed.

Chance for root to break on tick in PvP was removed before the server launched.

Technically it's not right/classic, but neither is the fact that the PvP duration of all roots/snares is capped at 5 ticks (in the past it's been said this was due to a clientside limitation, but that seems dubious). As a consequence, DoTs with a snare component (such as the necro darkness line) are also cut off at 5 ticks, which is pretty lame.

The snare cap is a client limitation. Might be able to find it and hex it to be more classic.

H

[Nirgon]

Best post of 2014.

You heard the news here first, pvp bugs section.

Fell outta my chair.

It looks like root in pvp won't break early (cept if ur nuked) in the code.

Is this right?

Working on that FR/MR discrepancy.

I also need details on what kinds of spells are not resisted correctly.

H

Needs to have a chance to break every tick and on the immediate tick. What I noticed on live test that matches my memory was roots immediately on application had to pass yet another hold check. So:

Resist check
Immediate resist check AGAIN to see if it holds
Check every tick from there for hold

^ I get called a liar on stuff like dis but its true and feel free to test on live on an in town guard or other high magic resist npc (Felwithe p.easy to get to). Have my vintage 60wiz if you want dat info to try it.

Players at even con with 80+ magic shouldn't ever be getting rooted or snared by roots/snares that share the same resist value @ least.. go from there. IE 90+ mr on one with -10 resist check etc.

Would be awesome if this was working. Had like a billion fetters spammed on me in pvp and for some ODD reason the first one would almost always land with 168+ MR. (dafuq)

[Colgate]

i think the druids using roots to finish geared people off era was one of the dumbest things i've seen on box to date

[Haynar]

So 80+ should be enough to resist an even con casting spells with no resist mod.

Sounds like a good target.

H

[quido]

Make sure you test your code thoroughly, Haynar.

[Colgate]

for the gamebreaking CC spells, yes

that would include roots, snares, blinds, stuns, mezzes(not rapture of course, which should be unresistable)

[Haynar]

Make sure you test your code thoroughly, Haynar.
Not like I have anyone else who helps me test it.

Duh.

[Nirgon]

So 80+ should be enough to resist an even con casting spells with no resist mod.

Sounds like a good target.

H

For roots / snares yes.

For other spells? Cold mainline nukes should be 120 cold for "immunity" (very rare mid range partial, common smaller partials, uncommon/somewhat common full resist) marker from an even con. I think its scaling should be +/-10 from there. That's for players. 130 cold (and plz someone chime in otherwise with your classic memory) for wizard cold nukes. I had 199 fire resist unbuffed on live and a druid could go oom trying to wildfire me before I died (in Velious raid gear) without dispel etc.

Even making 130 resist a base line of immunity/near immunity would be a huge step.

Then obviously druid/necro (that aren't poison/disease) dots should never resist on players :).

Poison/disease line for necro/shaman should be around 90-110 for this value. Starting to notice a trend as I go here around the 110-120 marker.

Oh and players could nuke other players through walls (but not npcs obvi) much like being able to heal through walls in pvp through end of Velious.

Love 2 see u do that + item loot it up.

What we SHOULD see (this is an l2p too) from here is players actually dispelling buffs and using debuffs to get their huge 800 dmg burst nukes to land.... and not spamming root/snare constantly in pvp. Oh and having to risk extremely potent resist gear for an advantage.

[Colgate]

yeah i've resisted a few pyrocruors here with 209 fire resist unbuffed and just immediately logged off in disgust

[Tavrin]

For other spells? Cold mainline nukes should be 120 cold for "immunity" (very rare mid range partial, common smaller partials, uncommon/somewhat common full resist) marker from an even con. I think its scaling should be +/-10 from there. That's for players. 130 cold (and plz someone chime in otherwise with your classic memory) for wizard cold nukes. I had 199 fire resist unbuffed on live and a druid could go oom trying to wildfire me before I died (in Velious raid gear) without dispel etc.
.

This looks pretty much accurate from my experience on live. I ran 140fr cr on my druid and would partial or full resist Ice Comets, draughts, and druid nukes. Although I would partial a much greater percentage than full resist.

Actually having to coordinate dispells + tash/malo chains = win for the server.

[Potus]

Needs to have a chance to break every tick and on the immediate tick. What I noticed on live test that matches my memory was roots immediately on application had to pass yet another hold check. So:

Resist check
Immediate resist check AGAIN to see if it holds
Check every tick from there for hold

^ I get called a liar on stuff like dis but its true and feel free to test on live on an in town guard or other high magic resist npc (Felwithe p.easy to get to). Have my vintage 60wiz if you want dat info to try it.

Players at even con with 80+ magic shouldn't ever be getting rooted or snared by roots/snares that share the same resist value @ least.. go from there. IE 90+ mr on one with -10 resist check etc.

Would be awesome if this was working. Had like a billion fetters spammed on me in pvp and for some ODD reason the first one would almost always land with 168+ MR. (dafuq)

Root is a DoT that does no damage. I'm pretty sure the immediate break you're referring to isn't another resist check, it's that the 6 second global dot tick from the server is hitting right as someone casts root on a mob. If timed right, you could root something and it could instantly break because the root didn't survive the first tick of the spell and thus broke.

[Potus]

Also Disease/Poison doesn't inherently resist any easier than say Fire or Cold, the reason why people remember resisting Disease/Poison dots frequently is because spells like E-Bolt and Plague have a direct damage and and a dot component, and that was explained by Abashi to be 2 chances to resist before a spell landed. Druid roots work on the same principle -- DD + the spell effect can resist and the spell fails to land.

So if you're running around with say 100 PR you're likely to resist a spell because it had two chances to snag, instead of one like most other spells, plus dots can't partial like nukes can.

[BlkCamel]

i believe melee damage also has a chance to break a root

bard stuns in general seem to be much more powerful than they should be, most notably denon's bereavement(point blank poison based aoe stun, DoT, and -MR debuff) and bruscoe's bombastic bellow(single target magic based nuke + long duration stun)

i also recall bard mezzes landing quite a lot when they shouldn't

rogue poisons, most notably the blind ones, also shouldn't be landing as often and at least the blind ones certainly shouldn't be full duration every time(being blinded for 78 seconds is just ridiculous)

the largest problem is with pure direct damage nukes being impossible to resist and requiring very high of the associated resist in order to begin partially resisting them

I didn't play PVP so maybe this was special to those servers, but I don't remember melee damage having any effect on root. I remember having dog tank rooted mobs for extra dps and hate (due to low agro of shaman epic). This wouldn't work if root was breaking early due to his dps, and he was usually hasted.

Maybe you are used to experiencing this because most melee use procing weapons? The procs themselves if they have a DD component should have a chance to break root. In fact root would break quite often when procs went off.

As anecdotal evidence, my JBB doesn't break root very often. I can actually get 4 or 5 casts usually before root breaks (not considering recent root breaking on tick changes, which would cause root to break prior to the damage hitting not right as damage landed). Root should have a pretty high chance to break by the 3rd/4th nuke(due to Random Chance, not some form of diminishing returns). Should essentially never get 5 nukes without a root break(1 in 10000 maybe?)

[BlkCamel]

Also Disease/Poison doesn't inherently resist any easier than say Fire or Cold, the reason why people remember resisting Disease/Poison dots frequently is because spells like E-Bolt and Plague have a direct damage and and a dot component, and that was explained by Abashi to be 2 chances to resist before a spell landed. Druid roots work on the same principle -- DD + the spell effect can resist and the spell fails to land.

So if you're running around with say 100 PR you're likely to resist a spell because it had two chances to snag, instead of one like most other spells, plus dots can't partial like nukes can.

Again I know this is PVP bug forum, but some of these changes might make blue.

This almost sounds/feels right. Poison dots resisted a-lot more often and were costly to use consistently on a higher con mob that wasn't de-buffed. It is a reason we had on the raid a dedicated De-buffing shaman and enchanter, + maybe bard.

Only problem I have is, it seems like it might already be this way(Resist check on DD, then Dot and maybe I am wrong since I can't see/read the code). Poison dots already do resist quite a-lot. Ask any Shaman or Necro leveling,not sure how druid fire dots resist currently maybe Daldaen can tell us, and enchanter dots were resisted a-lot unless mob was tashed first, they can't even use their poison dots for 5+ levels due to resists. Malo/Tash/Mala/Bard resist de-buffs on live went a long way, and most good Sham/Chanter/Mage would de-buff every mob(speaking of blue+ con, Green's should not require de-buffing).

Disease dots would fall into this as well, but most mobs had a low disease resist and so they landed most often without a de-buff. Shaman never used the disease de-buff(outside of pvp servers) until the Disease slows entered the game. It just wasn't needed. Only specific named and undead/plagued mobs should have a disease resist high enough to reliably resist a disease dot.

Again I apologize if all of the changes Haynar is considering making are limited to PVP server, but I have a feeling they are not, so I just wanted to point these things out.:D

[Haynar]

Resist code i am looking at is specific to pvp. But blue needs adjustments too.

H

[Nirgon]

it's that the 6 second global dot tick from the server is hitting right as someone casts root on a mob. If timed right, you could root something and it could instantly break because the root didn't survive the first tick of the spell and thus broke.

Ya that never happens here, whatever the cause might be

[Cheesypoof]

I have a lvl 54 almost 55 monk that can crank his FR up to 140 ish unbuffed if u would like to do some field testing on me. Just send me a PM.


Also..

Do you think you could put some work in on necros after you're done with the resist curve. Necros used to be a nice pvp class on live. Here they have several issues that require attention which have already been brought up in other threads.

[Pudge]

Resist code i am looking at is specific to pvp. But blue needs adjustments too.

H

Alecta did a really good job with his code. He implemented a tiered resist system where during classic resists don't need to be as high as they do in kunark, and then they need to be even higher in velious, to account for the better gear. He also made it so that resists can be scaled on the fly, without restarting the server.

Please be gentle changing resists, and monitor the server for feedback. What we have is already very good, despite complaints. I think it would probablu be a better use of developer time to focus on fixing dispels (which affects both red and blue) before tinkering with the resists again.

[Nirgon]

http://i.imgur.com/Wr1KLcD.gif



EverQuest

[R Flair]

I didn't play PVP so maybe this was special to those servers, but I don't remember melee damage having any effect on root.

Roots didn't break with melee. Its sort of annoying to see melee break roots in pvp here but seeing as how theyd almost never land on live, i dont think anyones complaining.

think someone already said it best when you gotta just be careful adjusting resists and partials too far. The way it is now has some outright bugs, but as long as you can actually start seeing partials around 100 MR/CR/FR i think the system would be decently tweaked for velious. Maybe occasional full resists once you break 200 or somethin.

[Haynar]

Alecta did a really good job with his code. He implemented a tiered resist system where during classic resists don't need to be as high as they do in kunark, and then they need to be even higher in velious, to account for the better gear. He also made it so that resists can be scaled on the fly, without restarting the server.

Please be gentle changing resists, and monitor the server for feedback. What we have is already very good, despite complaints. I think it would probablu be a better use of developer time to focus on fixing dispels (which affects both red and blue) before tinkering with the resists again.
So basically your input is to leave resists alone?

What class you play on red?

H

[Colgate]

resist system definitely isn't anywhere close to very good

when i have 209 fire resist and i'm taking 750+ damage from a sunstrike in pvp, shit's definitely real bad and real DUMB

[Nirgon]

^ yis. Although I won't be as crass in my opinions. It seems to me the more time people who pvped during the classic era spend here, the angstier they get (take a LONG break, truzme). However, I can understand that after being chain rooted by a mage pet's lure root that existed here for some time.

Pay no attention to these scum who said things like "SERVER'S FINE JUST RELEASE IT" etc or who wanted ffa pvp zones to suit their interests, or who the hell knows what else that isn't classic.

I will help you, give you honest feed back and seek any clarification from trusted parties.

One thing is for sure, it will be leagues of classic beyond what is here now. As far as people who don't want that? Why pay attention to them anyways. You either want something that is classic (like me) or you want something that serves your interests (selfish/retarded/everyone loses).

What is here now? An attempt to make a WoW style combat system of some kind. I think it had the right intentions but it just doesn't mesh well with the rest of EQ's mechanics.

[Pudge]

So basically your input is to leave resists alone?

What class you play on red?

H

i'm an SK. i just don't want to see half the classes become meaningless if you get to resist a nuke at 80 resist. i run at 215 fr unbuffed. would it be fun for awhile to run around stomping some casters? yea.

but then the game would become just a bunch of melees, and buff bots. the spice of EQ is all the unique classes. already no one plays mages or necros. imagine when every kind of attack spell is resisted....... game would just suck

[Pudge]

i wouldnt leave them totally alone, just what i said in my 1st post in this thread. and in addition try using the scaling system Alecta set up.

and dispels are a big part of both pvp and pve, and have never been done right.

[Nirgon]

You know classes can do other things besides spam nukes (well that's what I think works here, coming here fresh with a classic mindset I thought it was comical people were doing that at first)? I agree buff stacking and dispel should come along with this too. Would be nice if we could test all this on the current Velious beta server.

You know people will have to risk those items that give them the godly 215 FR in my system?

Resilience was added to games like WoW for a reason. The burstiness was just stupid and left no room for strategy just mashing damage. At least frost nova (root) had a long cool down :), back on red launch I would watch one druid spam nukes while another spammed roots. Wuz supa dumb especially considering all parties had 160ish of each resist buffed (why bother dispelling, it didn't make a diff!).


PS: the buff stacking change pseudo code is just:
buff is applied -> place it in first available top slot, remove previous instance if it exists -> classic

[Potus]

Ya that never happens here, whatever the cause might be

It might be that the server and the global tick are never synced properly here. Ask a lot of shaman about this, there's sometimes 3 ticks; it makes cannidancing insanely difficult.

[Technique]

I ran a trial of 100 wildfire casts vs. self (so a max of 1024 dmg because no PvP reduction) @ 122 FR and this was the result:
http://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1OTRWUK338VXPSZssJfh9V4lHaJUwyZqSX2U3AX9-4XI/embed/oimg?id=1OTRWUK338VXPSZssJfh9V4lHaJUwyZqSX2U3AX9-4XI&oid=764435015&zx=w2jifamjno3z
http://i.imgur.com/8QHwiOg.png

This chart reflects what I believe is the biggest problem with the current partial resist function: the middle of the distribution is scooped out; the majority of casts either landed for around half damage or for nearly full. It's the exact opposite of what you'd expect.

If anything, the curve should be inverted, so it looks more like a bell (or otherwise a normal distribution). This would go a long way toward making resists have a noticeably more reliable effect.

[Technique]

You either want something that is classic (like me) or you want something that serves your interests (selfish/retarded/everyone loses).I'd say this is a false dichotomy, but in your case those two options are one and the same.

You know people will have to risk those items that give them the godly 215 FR in my system?No they won't, because item loot will never exist on this server. Any forthcoming resist changes are being made with r99 in mind, not "Nirgon's Fantasy 100% Classic RZ Paradise Server".

(why bother dispelling, it didn't make a diff!This same situation will occur under your proposed "120ish resist for immunity" system. Why bother dispelling colgate when he already has 209 FR unbuffed? It won't make a difference.

[Colgate]

i wouldn't bother to have 209 fire resist in a classic resist system; i would be able to allocate my gear toward other stats instead of having to go all-in on fire or magic

[heartbrand]

i wouldn't bother to have 209 fire resist in a classic resist system; i would be able to allocate my gear toward other stats instead of having to go all-in on fire or magic

[Haynar]

I have the basics figured out, they were there already. What is just broke, is the partial system.

My vision, would be a spell like a zero resist mod magic nuke (that partials), it will scale from about 50 MR, to start resisting.

At about 80 MR, you will start getting partials.

At 100 MR, you will resist about 20%, and have 60% partial, and 20% land for full.

At 120 MR, you will get the min 2% land for full.

At 140 MR, you will be resisting half, and partials on half.

At 200 MR, you will have about 95% resist, with a 2% hit for full, and 3% partial.

This is just the basic framework. All numbers are soft at this point, but that is just a general idea on what i am working for.

H

[Pudge]

I have the basics figured out, they were there already. What is just broke, is the partial system.

My vision, would be a spell like a zero resist mod magic nuke (that partials), it will scale from about 50 MR, to start resisting.

At about 80 MR, you will start getting partials.

At 100 MR, you will resist about 20%, and have 60% partial, and 20% land for full.

At 120 MR, you will get the min 2% land for full.

At 140 MR, you will be resisting half, and partials on half.

At 200 MR, you will have about 95% resist, with a 2% hit for full, and 3% partial.

This is just the basic framework. All numbers are soft at this point, but that is just a general idea on what i am working for.

H

I'm really glad you're putting in work to help make the server better. but such a drastic change like this will be truly damaging. before implementing something like this, please can you make a post about it on the main pvp forum? very few ppl read the bug forums... mostly because nothing ever gets changed anyway.

maybe if you bumped everything up by 40 i'd feel better about it. at least for Kunark era.

[quido]

One thing I feel red has right is the resist rate on roots. Most people seem to be of the consensus that on live, 100 MR was enough to reliably resist root. Here, you currently have a 98% resist rate (which is the cap) @ 125 MR vs high level roots. If your new system could preserve this facet of the current system, well, that would be just dandy.

[Haynar]

One thing I am not gonna do, is code by comittee. Just not gonna happen. Cuz ur just gonna piss me off and I am not gonna change anything.

I threw out basics. No different than basics now, just trying to fix partials.

5 people say root is OP. 1 says its fine. 10 say its used too much to finish people off. 3 say you should leave it alone. 12 say coordinating debufs and dispellis where its at. 12 priest classes say root and nuke is the way to go, leave it alone. 4 say you need to adjust it harder for velious. 13 non-raiders quit because the difference between haves and have nots is too big.

I will make it as classic as i can get it. There is plenty of info to work with.

H

[Haynar]

One thing I feel red has right is the resist rate on roots. Most people seem to be of the consensus that on live, 100 MR was enough to reliably resist root. Here, you currently have a 98% resist rate (which is the cap) @ 125 MR vs high level roots. If your new system could preserve this facet of the current system, well, that would be just dandy.
Non-partial spells i am looking to max generally abt 125. At 100 should be high resists. Working on the equations and curves. Not gonna be linear tho. There will be dimenishing returns at top. Trying to have the right balance.

I did figure out how to hack the client to show a max resist of 255. So that is getting capped.

H

[Colgate]

I will make it as classic as i can get it. There is plenty of info to work with.

aww yiss

[Dullah]

I have the basics figured out, they were there already. What is just broke, is the partial system.

My vision, would be a spell like a zero resist mod magic nuke (that partials), it will scale from about 50 MR, to start resisting.

At about 80 MR, you will start getting partials.

At 100 MR, you will resist about 20%, and have 60% partial, and 20% land for full.

At 120 MR, you will get the min 2% land for full.

At 140 MR, you will be resisting half, and partials on half.

At 200 MR, you will have about 95% resist, with a 2% hit for full, and 3% partial.

This is just the basic framework. All numbers are soft at this point, but that is just a general idea on what i am working for.

H

I'm assuming it will be the same for CR and FR non-lures?

Looks like malo, lures and dots are back on the menu boys.

Now if you can just add ALL normal debuffs to resist at the same 100-120 MR mark so I'm not getting slowed and color slanted at 200 MR, server would be back in business.

[Technique]

Looks like malo, lures and dots are back on the menu boys.

Now if you can just add ALL normal debuffs to resist at the same 100-120 MR mark so I'm not getting slowed and color slanted at 200 MR, server would be back in business.
Malo is -45 MR. Tashanian is -43. So even double-debuffed, the worst of circumstances, you'd still be hovering within the 98% chance-to-resist immunity zone.

Nirgon laments the lack of "strategy" outside a classic resist system, as if functional immunity to all spells except those which have negative resist mods or are otherwise unresistable somehow increases the variety of tactically plausible decisions available to casters.

[Daldaen]

I did figure out how to hack the client to show a max resist of 255. So that is getting capped.

H
PRAS

Only useful thing to ever come from red.

[Colgate]

Malo is -45 MR. Tashanian is -43. So even double-debuffed, the worst of circumstances, you'd still be hovering within the 98% chance-to-resist immunity zone.

Nirgon laments the lack of "strategy" outside a classic resist system, as if functional immunity to all spells except those which have negative resist mods or are otherwise unresistable somehow increases the variety of tactically plausible decisions available to casters.

in a classic resist system, you have to rely on dispels and resist debuffs to pvp effectively, fights become more drawn out and the better player will win a majority of the time

in the current resist system, press wildfire until someone dies

[Nirgon]

PRAS

Only useful thing to ever come from red.

Ya know that hurts real bad right

Best thing for Haynar is to ignore what people think they want and give them classic (proven goodness, enough to attract all the people around to this project).

A good analogy is sometimes a "slow" child will want to play with something sharp, the child may even scream for it and beg for it. But we both know he's just gonna poke his eyes out with it and cry even more, irreparable damage done aside.

[Nirgon]

Malo is -45 MR. Tashanian is -43. So even double-debuffed, the worst of circumstances, you'd still be hovering within the 98% chance-to-resist immunity zone.

Nirgon laments the lack of "strategy" outside a classic resist system, as if functional immunity to all spells except those which have negative resist mods or are otherwise unresistable somehow increases the variety of tactically plausible decisions available to casters.

Tell me more about this deep strategy of mashing "1" on fully buffed targets. I'm always looking to learn more :).

You know all those rains that are casted that 1 shot you? You know that's extremely stupid? I truly didn't enjoy it, even if it did guarantee me holdings of the best raw plat farm in the game/p99 (and at a 3:1 red to blue plat value, I made some serious lewts). Rains were some of the MOST resisted spells on live.

Why on earth would someone try to get their class "nerfed" in pvp? Maybe having an actual classic EQ pvp server is more important than another Trak BP.

Then again for some people it was a priority to buff the epic pet before fixing the practically lure based 51+ earth pet root. Go figure.

[Haynar]

PVP code gives pets the casting level of their owners. WTF?

H

[Technique]

You know all those rains that are casted that 1 shot you? You know that's extremely stupid?They don't 1-shot you when you move out of them before they have time to tick more than once. If you can't move because you're rooted, you try to defensively dispel before the rain lands.

But nah, way more "strategy" involved in just standing there slackjawed while fully resisting every wave because classic, right?

Maybe having an actual classic EQ pvp server is more important than another Trak BP.What you mean to say is: "having an actual classic EQ pvp server is more important to Nirgon than a system which doesn't render every spell that isn't a lure or unresistable useless".

[silo32]

PVP code gives pets the casting level of their owners. WTF?

H

yea, like in Planes of Power it did.. not classic deff not classic

[Colgate]

They don't 1-shot you when you move out of them before they have time to tick more than once. If you can't move because you're rooted, you try to defensively dispel before the rain lands.

But nah, way more "strategy" involved in just standing there slackjawed while fully resisting every wave because classic, right?

What you mean to say is: "having an actual classic EQ pvp server is more important to Nirgon than a system which doesn't render every spell that isn't a lure or unresistable useless".

they aren't useless when the target is malo'd, tashed, etc.

also not everyone has access to top end resist gear, believe it or not; i think i only had like 60 cold resist unbuffed on my monk for over a year until i was able to afford diamond rings, mask, etc., and i think it should be actually rewarding to invest enough playtime necessary to get aforementioned top end resist gear; right now i can spend 40+ days /played leveling and gearing out a melee in raid gear so that i can... partial 300 damage from a sunstrike while having low MR, PR, DR, HP, strength, stamina, dexterity, agility?? lol???

[Mac Drettj]

Praz Hdeezie

This is also a necro buff in disguise.

Would love to play in Nirgons Rallos 100% Classic Item Loot Emporium Playground if it existed

[Haynar]

yea, like in Planes of Power it did.. not classic deff not classic

Yep, when they gave them a boost. Thats why I was like ...

[Colgate]

could be one of the reasons why mage root/epic pets land their spells ALL THE TIME here

[Haynar]

could be one of the reasons why mage root/epic pets land their spells ALL THE TIME here
Thats one of things was looking at.

[Nirgon]

They don't 1-shot you when you move out of them before they have time to tick more than once. If you can't move because you're rooted, you try to defensively dispel before the rain lands.

But nah, way more "strategy" involved in just standing there slackjawed while fully resisting every wave because classic, right?

What you mean to say is: "having an actual classic EQ pvp server is more important to Nirgon than a system which doesn't render every spell that isn't a lure or unresistable useless".

Should I link the screen shot of you taking 3 waves and dying or no? The screen shot in question shows you taking full damage 3 times from tears of druzzil, which, might I dare say was about as resistable as whirl? Very not classic, not a rewarding kill. Let's just make whirl land every time so pvp can be good, ya?

:)

Making things classic is the most important thing to me what a revelation, I've been exposed!

[HippoNipple]

in a classic resist system, you have to rely on dispels and resist debuffs to pvp effectively, fights become more drawn out and the better player will win a majority of the time

in the current resist system, press wildfire until someone dies

Should wait until after Velious to pitch this idea.

[Potus]

This is also a necro buff in disguise.


Eh, fix Pet DW and Splurt missing its last, most powerful tick and we'll start dancing.

[Haynar]

Splurt missing last tick?

[Technique]

right now i can spend 40+ days /played leveling and gearing out a melee in raid gear so that i can... partial 300 damage from a sunstrike while having low MR, PR, DR, HP, strength, stamina, dexterity, agility?? lol???So instead of rewriting the partial resist function to no longer produce these wildly erratic damage values, it'd be better to just discard it in favor of a strictly classic system in which you're going to flat-out fucking resist a 7-second, 450-mana spell 95% of the time?

lol, indeed.

Should I link the screen shot of you taking 3 waves and dying or no? The screen shot in question shows you taking full damage 3 times from tears of druzzil, which, might I dare say was about as resistable as whirl? Very not classic, not a rewarding kill. Let's just make whirl land every time so pvp can be good, ya? Getting caught in a rain doesn't change the fact that it's still avoidable.

And I never implied that spells should always land. However, you're of the opinion that entire spell lines should never land. Instead of reducing a spell like whirl to "delete-from-spellbook" uselessness (I remember testing it after the nerf and having it resist even at negative MR), it and other stuns could've been given custom functionality in PvP so that they remained viable but not overpowered. (Alecta was already in the process of customizing stun durations before his disappearance.)

But no, that wouldn't be classic, and classic is about whole spell categories being useless. Mem lure of ice and start mashing "1", Nirgon, because that's all you're gonna be doing with classic resist rules in place on this server.

Splurt missing last tick?Splurt is 15 ticks on p99 but listed as 16 in a Velious-era spdat.

Assuming the Kunark source that p99 uses is accurate, then it's probably because the spell wasn't changed until Velious.

[Nirgon]

Rains were good for killing nakeds, dats it and how it should be.

One other thing to note, however, is that there should be no limit to the # of targets hit by an aoe. Further, all rains should hit all pvp targets in the area 3 times. Crazy but true.

Being able to cast any spell through walls on players is classic too at least casters had that in dungeons.

Survey says you play a druid and like to wildfire spam without having to dispel... apply appropriate debuffs etc.


1111111111111

[Technique]

Survey says you play a druid and like to wildfire spam without having to dispel... apply appropriate debuffs etc.If I told you that what I play is irrelevant to my opinion on the subject of this discussion you wouldn't believe me.

Frankly I don't much care what happens. Moving toward a classic resist system is just shifting us toward the opposite end of the same shitty spectrum.

[Pudge]

Being able to cast any spell through walls on players is classic too at least casters had that in dungeons.

heard you mention this twice now.. on live it got changed more than once. they had 0 LoS necessary, LoS necessary to start casting but not finish, and LoS necessary to both start and finish.

I think what we currently have on r99 is good. Need LoS to start casting, and if the target is within a certain range (100?) when you finish casting, it will complete casting regardless of LoS. If the target is over 100 and you don't have LoS, then it won't go off.

[Nirgon]

Naw needs cast through walls for player versus player.

Doesn't feel like EQ PvP to us old timers without it.

[Tune]

bard resist rate on offensive spells is too high since last patch

nothing lands v much anymore since the last patch, bereavement / mez'

there is literally no way to stop some1 from gating b/c 1 resist is all they need.

lvl 12 bruscos boastful bellow was a very reliable interrupt on live and it isnt here...

i know we are not supposed to be burning people down, but CC is part of out class and we need to have something

resist rate on dirge should be tweaked a bit lower i dont think the resist rate was the same as the classes with magic nukes, because we just cant spam it like they can. looked for evidence but dont remember too well on this one

[Nirgon]

Considering the resist rate was "impossible" before, I'm sure a classic resist rate on bard songs will come as a major shock

[Tune]

yea it was too op a while ago, im not asking to go back to that

[Colgate]

bard resist rate on offensive spells is too high since last patch

nothing lands v much anymore since the last patch, bereavement / mez'

there is literally no way to stop some1 from gating b/c 1 resist is all they need.

lvl 12 bruscos boastful bellow was a very reliable interrupt on live and it isnt here...

i know we are not supposed to be burning people down, but CC is part of out class and we need to have something

resist rate on dirge should be tweaked a bit lower i dont think the resist rate was the same as the classes with magic nukes, because we just cant spam it like they can. looked for evidence but dont remember too well on this one

note to haynar: this person plays and a bard and is advocating non-classic resist code to benefit his class

[Tune]

thats bullshit dude and i can say the same thing about you

being immune to spells is garbage idc what u say , melees have enough advantage as is

[heartbrand]

note to haynar: this person plays and a bard and is advocating non-classic resist code to benefit his class

[Nirgon]

It's OK. Haynar and I are here to help.

http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110216143803/matrix/images/f/f3/Architect_%26_neo.png

[Colgate]

thats bullshit dude and i can say the same thing about you

being immune to spells is garbage idc what u say , melees have enough advantage as is

i'm also an advocate for removing null's custom stacking interrupt chance code, fixing AC(aka nerfing melee hit rate), nerfing throwing(a skill monks have), buffing archery(a skill monks do not have), etc.

i only want classic everquest

[HippoNipple]

i'm also an advocate for removing null's custom stacking interrupt chance code, fixing AC(aka nerfing melee hit rate), nerfing throwing(a skill monks have), buffing archery(a skill monks do not have), etc.

i only want classic everquest

All these problems need to be fixed the same time the resists get implemented. A lot of the classes are OP compared to classic so nerfing 1 or two at a time will almost be worse than leaving it how it is.

For the most part every class hits way to hard and often whether it is melee or a caster.

If you correct spell dmg and nerf wizards/mages to a classic state while still allowing melees to do crazy damage it won't be a better server.

[Colgate]

yes, you are correct, the server won't necessarily be "better" but we will be one step closer to classic

[Haynar]

So don't do anything until everything is fixed.

H

[Wrench]

So don't do anything until everything is fixed.

H

welcome to dev for red

[Potus]

Just reduce melee damage 2/3 like caster damage. Fixed server.

[Colgate]

nah, make it classic dawg one step at a time

[Potus]

Classic Velious is casters only logging on for raids, half of them dying to melees on the way to Kael :(

Save the casters QQ

[Zalaerian]

Classic Velious is bad casters only logging on for raids, half of them dying to melees on the way to Kael :(

Save the bad casters QQ

[Colgate]

ya if you think casters are worthless in velious and only good for raids you don't know what you're doing

[Potus]

ya if you think casters are worthless in velious and only good for raids you don't know what you're doing

I'm still waiting for you to show every Necro how to play the game. All ears!

[Haynar]

Was thinking in the ac code, to bump value of pvp by an amount.

And have pure nuke spells like sunstrike working sweet.

H

[Colgate]

And have pure nuke spells like sunstrike working sweet.

what does this mean?

[Potus]

Was thinking in the ac code, to bump value of pvp by an amount.

And have pure nuke spells like sunstrike working sweet.

H

If you tackle both melee hit rate in PvP and FR/CR not working against nukes I will praise you forever.

[lolin]

note to haynar: this person plays and a bard and is advocating non-classic resist code to benefit his class

Technically he has 4 level 60 bards with epic. So development knows the motive.

[Tavrin]

If you tackle both melee hit rate in PvP and FR/CR not working against nukes I will praise you forever.

+1. We may get a classic PvP experience after all.

Thanks for the work Haynar.

[Haynar]

what does this mean?
Pure damage nukes had their own partial resist code. And it was so that u were never going to resist hardly. Never with a 255 res cap.

[Colgate]

oh so you mean you've fixed that to where they're now resistable?

[Haynar]

oh so you mean you've fixed that to where they're now resistable?

For the FR/CR nukes.

H

[Potus]

Pure damage nukes had their own partial resist code. And it was so that u were never going to resist hardly. Never with a 255 res cap.
For the FR/CR nukes.

H


http://i.imgur.com/U0rJTkt.gifhttp://i.imgur.com/U0rJTkt.gifhttp://i.imgur.com/U0rJTkt.gif
http://i.imgur.com/U0rJTkt.gifhttp://i.imgur.com/U0rJTkt.gifhttp://i.imgur.com/U0rJTkt.gif

[Colgate]

For the FR/CR nukes.

H

sounds GR8

have you adjusted the resist code overall or just removed the part that says cannot be full resisted?

[Dullah]

Thanks for the work Haynar. Please dont be discouraged by all the negativity from r99 regarding everything.

[Mac Drettj]

Every H post I see I reach that point right before release

[Nirgon]

Just if we can get a whiff of what you got cookin'...

If I have, say, 160 fire resist and I'm level 60...

"Bout" how many sunstrikes (or wildfire, wizard resist mob nukes aside) should hit me in this new system or super low partial?

As that might be an painful (seriously) question to answer, how about instead in the form of as compared to before the changes?

Thx again.

[derpcake]

Shouldn't be too hard to parse anyway, might as well throw numbers out :)

[Haynar]

At 160 FR, sunstrike will resist 80%. Have 18% partials. 2% full. Partial will hit for 8 - 28%.

H

[Colgate]

oh my

you are a god

[Dullah]

At 160 FR, sunstrike will resist 80%. Have 18% partials. 2% full. Partial will hit for 8 - 28%.

H

wow are these changes being put in live or part of a future patch?

[Colgate]

i would assume a patch considering it sounds like he's completely removing null's partial resist code entirely

[Haynar]

I altered null's code. It was a good starting point. But will require a patch.

H

[Dullah]

If these resists go in its going to be a rude awakening, especially when people can easily achieve this level of resists in velious unbuffed.

If this is going to be how it is, might want to advance the time table on 1.5x debuff resist reduction.

[Gigaslash]

Rains were good for killing nakeds, dats it and how it should be.

One other thing to note, however, is that there should be no limit to the # of targets hit by an aoe. Further, all rains should hit all pvp targets in the area 3 times. Crazy but true.

Being able to cast any spell through walls on players is classic too at least casters had that in dungeons.

Survey says you play a druid and like to wildfire spam without having to dispel... apply appropriate debuffs etc.


1111111111111


I can also attest to this fact, rains should hit 3 times with an unlimited number of targets in PVP only, PVE had the 5 target maximum limitation so as to not be exploited.

[Haynar]

If these resists go in its going to be a rude awakening, especially when people can easily achieve this level of resists in velious unbuffed.

If this is going to be how it is, might want to advance the time table on 1.5x debuff resist reduction.

You mean it will take more strategy than mashing the same button over and over?

[Dullah]

Ya, I agree. Would be nice to see people actually have to use spells like malo in pvp and try to stack debuffs. Mage going to be pretty useless as is.

[Zalaerian]

Great changes. Thanks H

[Colgate]

You mean it will take more strategy than mashing the same button over and over?

8)

[Colgate]

this change, making AC work more in PvP, and a few other fixes would bring red pvp to a pretty respectable place

[Daldaen]

this change, making AC work more in PvP, and a few other fixes would bring red pvp to a pretty respectable place

+Item Loot.

[Nirgon]

Haynar you don't know what this means to the classic pvp community.

Maybe you do.

[Nirgon]

One other thing on resists and maybe you see something in the code like you did before with pets...

When we buffed pets with resist magic on live, it was impossible to root them, even the shaman pets that conned green (light blue, but green for era). Is that a possible change? I think it will make things work better some how in pve if that works too. Goes for necro/mage/shaman/you name it pets or npcs controlled by players :).

I don't play a pet class, but this was a huge edge for mages and made the druid+mage combo so feared (along with frost from the druid so much as partial'ing and dropping fire resist) .

[Colgate]

not 100% on this but i'm pretty sure that frost doesn't even lower your fire resist here

[Nirgon]

It's Ice the 49 druid spell, had FROST on da brain :).

Frost I think was advertised to druids as the upgrade to Ice but never lowered FR... I don't think Verant/SOE ever fixed that. Druid pals welcome to give 2cp :).

[Colgate]

yeah -50 fire p strong

[Nirgon]

^ Ya more spells that will get some use/become insanely useful in pvp.

Anywho more on track and I know we just got 200 Christmasses at once... but is it possible to do that for pets buffed by resist magic? Make them basically impossible to root? 8]

One of the old Lucid Vision pvp boxes got this working or actually it may have just worked on its own.

[Dullah]

http://www.tski.co.jp/baldio/patch/20010531.html

Would be nice to see this at least by velious launch. With classic resists, it really adds a lot of value to classes like shm/mag/bard in pvp who basically got all their spells resisted by well geared/buffed players. More dynamics, less mashing 1 button.

[Potus]

Yeah that patch sadly came too little too late by Verant, in fact I think it was the last time they actually addressed pvp gameplay balance on live?

[Nirgon]

Ya that was a very good change, but if we gotta wait we gotta wait.

This one change alone might be making necros instantly super viable like they should be :).

[Technique]

^ Ya more spells that will get some use/become insanely useful in pvp.Spells like Fire/Ice will be flat-out fucking resisted 80% of the time (if not more, because they're not pure nukes) as in the 160 resist scenario, which means their resist debuffs won't be applied.

Resist code that makes debuffs most likely to be resisted in the very situation they're most needed to land sure makes for some deeply strategic gameplay, huh.

[Nirgon]

Ya maybe we'll see 8]

http://boards.deniableplausibility.net/i/v/image/1399/47/1399472195087.gif

[Grimjaw]

This one change alone might be making necros instantly super viable like they should be :).

http://i.imgur.com/Rmbptgx.png

[Potus]

Spells like Fire/Ice will be flat-out fucking resisted 80% of the time (if not more, because they're not pure nukes) as in the 160 resist scenario, which means their resist debuffs won't be applied.

Resist code that makes debuffs most likely to be resisted in the very situation they're most needed to land sure makes for some deeply strategic gameplay, huh.

Roll a monk. Seriously, Velious is meleequest.

[Haynar]

PvP Resist and AC changes coded.

Need to do some tests and parses.

H

[Colgate]

how to test without being patched

??

[Haynar]

how to test without being patched

??
On my laptop.

Got full running server with 1000 per tick regen. Running some pre-ac change parses right now.

H

[Colgate]

o nice

[Dullah]

haynar box hero

[LostCause]

pras haynar

[Haynar]

Hated AC changes. Testing a different mitigation model.

H

[Pudge]

At 160 FR, sunstrike will resist 80%. Have 18% partials. 2% full. Partial will hit for 8 - 28%.

H

ummm.. think this sounds good for Classic, but for kunark era i'd add +40 (make it 200) to resist at that rate...

think partials had a wider range than 8-28%.. more like 8-66.

and on live i believe there was always a 5% chance (not just 2) to land for full.

[Dullah]

ummm.. think this sounds good for Classic, but for kunark era i'd add +40 (make it 200) to resist at that rate...

think partials had a wider range than 8-28%.. more like 8-66.

and on live i believe there was always a 5% chance (not just 2) to land for full.

Agreed. I have 100-150 in all resists unbuffed and its only kunark. I know its classic mechanics, but lets be honest, EQ pvp didn't get much love in velious and the only thing they did to counter all the amazing resist gear was increase malo/tash. By the end of the expansion it was pretty whack.

[DeadlyApostle]

Classic it was 7% chance for any direct nuke to land for full... was easy to figure this out starting in Luclin because whenever you crit as a wizard it would also do full damage.

[Dullah]

Classic it was 7% chance for any direct nuke to land for full... was easy to figure this out starting in Luclin because whenever you crit as a wizard it would also do full damage.

Pretty sure theres also a 7 percent chance for it to rain on saturdays at 2pm during the summer if youre within 50 miles of the 30th parallel north.

[Haynar]

Agreed. I have 100-150 in all resists unbuffed and its only kunark. I know its classic mechanics, but lets be honest, EQ pvp didn't get much love in velious and the only thing they did to counter all the amazing resist gear was increase malo/tash. By the end of the expansion it was pretty whack.

Yeah..... Right.

I don't care who has what resist. Or what gear.

Lets be honest. Its classic mechanics we are after.

If you aren't interested in reproducing those.....

Move along.....

[Technique]

Yeah..... Right.

I don't care who has what resist. Or what gear.

Lets be honest. Its classic mechanics we are after.

If you aren't interested in reproducing those.....

Move along.....Let's see just how classic it is when interrupt spells like Shock of Lightning that were used consistently because they were rarely outright resisted start getting full resisted over 80% of the time in your "classic" system.

[Nirgon]

Obviously we'll do testing for one offs after these changes. Doesn't seem like Haynar pal is going anywhere any time soon or anyone/anything is in his way for getting the changes in :).

No more Lure of Wildfire :)

People complaining about resists should just ask for item loot so fairly easy to place resist gear (ESP ON TWINKS) has to be risked for the advantage.

[Haynar]

Maybe we can turn pvp on for the velious test server for a bit.

Doing melee parses now, attempt 3. Looking good so far.

Even if parses look good, still might take tweaks to get the right "feel".

I moved pvp mitigation to a different calculation, like npc against pc's use. Doing a comparison between this and what it was like with old formula.

H

[Haynar]

Heh, my super monk with 1300 AC before, taking 44 dps. After. 20 dps.

And I saw just messed up stuff with AC changes before. New case it matters.

Totally arbitrary numbers. But almost something ready to put out for testing.

H

[Colgate]

the velious beta server should be fine as long as it has the pvp code implemented and we just all go to an arena

[Haynar]

the velious beta server should be fine as long as it has the pvp code implemented and we just all go to an arena

Not quite. But I could make pvp in arenas or duels to use the new code.

H

[quido]

I realize this is likely very low on the priority list, but it would be really really nice if PvP resists from red made their way over to blue so people in duels weren't getting snared with 350 MR.

[Haynar]

I realize this is likely very low on the priority list, but it would be really really nice if PvP resists from red made their way over to blue so people in duels weren't getting snared with 350 MR.

That was the new thought, make red pvp code be used for blue arena and duels.

H

[Grimjaw]

Yeah..... Right.

I don't care who has what resist. Or what gear.

Lets be honest. Its classic mechanics we are after.

If you aren't interested in reproducing those.....

Move along.....





This Haynar guy sounds like the answer to my prayers




You think the P1999 developers care about how you think non-classic spell mechanics should work? They are focused on recreating an experience as it was in 1999.
If you don't remember, on live they were always making changes to the PvP mechanics.
All this talk about Kunark and Velious does not matter right now, so just save it for when it does matter.
If you started playing after Kunark you should not be posting. If you only played emulator pvp you should definitely not be posting.
The P1999 developers probably don't want to hear all your theories about how PvP spell mechanics should work, considering it is evident that most of your experiences are far from classic.
Stop wasting everyones time creating false recollections of the truth when the facts are out there.

Example:
http://everquest.allakhazam.com/hist...ches-1999.html

------------------------------
September 13, 1999
------------------------------
PVP Changes:
- In order to make PVP combat between spellcasters and melee types more
viable some changes to PVP spell effects have been made. All damage
spells cast in PVP combat will do less damage to the PC than the same
spell would do to an NPC. When a PC is under the effect of a root-type
spell there is a 20% chance that they will break free when a direct
damage spell is cast upon them.

So cut the BS. Help Red99 by getting real facts so they can develop it.

shits fucked cry wolf chain casting root gg

just take root and snare out of the game altogether. That would be a more classic feel to be honest

don't forget the shitty resist code that needs a mentioning

Won't be logging back in until I am unrootable/usnarable/unstunnable.

just fix resist already. no need for some shitty custom resist system. Make it classic alreay! I never got rooted blind stunned snared etc

Next time do your homework Null... You ruined this server.

Yeah but don't you know? Null had this great system he devloped in his spare time

How did they think up resists here? They strive for a truly classic experience, and then custom resists? WTF!!!!

Resist Feedback post 11/6/2011 - 19/4/2012 (RIP): THEY BLOW!!! FIX!!! PLZ MAKE IT CLASSIC LIKE YOU NORMALLY DO!!!

resists are so messed up thats pretty much the only thing making the server utterly broken when it comes to pvp, turning any classic PvPer away (who made it above 20)

PEOPLE WILL ACTUALLY PVP IF THEY ARE NOT GOING TO JUST GET ROOTED AND ZERGGED DOWN. YOUR CUSTOM RESISTS ALREADY CHASED ALL THE DIEHARD PVPERS AWAY. CLASSIC PVPERS CAME HERE TO EXPERIENCE PVP AS IT WAS IN 1999, JUST LIKE EVERY OTHER ASPECT OF PROJECT 1999. HOWEVER YOUR CUSTOM RESIST SYSTEM IS COMPLETELY GAME-BREAKING, NO ONE REMEMBERD IT THAT WAY, NO ONE WANTS TO PLAY IT THAT WAY. JUST STICK TO MAKING THINGS CLASSIC, ESPECIALLY RESISTS.
IF YOU WANT TO GO MAKE SOMETHING CUSTOM, GO DECORATE A HOUSE IN FREEPORT.

Just want classic, classic is not getting perma stunned and raped by clerics. Clerics shouldn't be able land their magic based spells in high level pvp with 100+ MR.

Null, enough with the custom bullshit. Enough tweaking this and tweaking that. Do work son. Get it right, once and for all. You alone are driving people away.

[03-02-2001] http://www.eqclerics.org/forums/show...11&postcount=3
First, dont lvl. Clerics stink at pvp at higher lvls.
Use furor to inturrupt others spells.
All magic based spells (root/blind/stun) are good up to about lvl 35 then many people have the magic resist to pretty much resist all those.
PvP in a group, solo you will stink at mid to higher lvls
There are lots of tactics, just think defense...
[03-08-2001] http://www.eqclerics.org/forums/show...15&postcount=7
I'm level 49 and I've learned I can only land one spell: cancel magic. Anything else and you're going to be wasting your time on a red server. Blue servers will tell you to use this or that nuke and stun because all the do is duel and people on blue servers have horrible MR. The only stun I even consider loading is the level 1 stun, just to interrupt a cast if I think I can. All the others stun and do damage, giving them 2 sv magic checks, thus making them twice as likely to be resisted.

i never would have thought that an everquest pvp server would digress into using 'Blind' as a valid tactic.

This is just a drop in the bucket as to how game-breaking/altering the spell resist mechanics are. This is suppose to be a classic server, but this single non-classic mechanic is affecting entirely all other aspects of the server, giving the overall experience a feel of a custom server (with shitty pvp).
Anyone remember a pvp tactic called jousting??? Obvously Null DID NOT.

Apple you're gonna get a kick outta this one...
http://www.eqclerics.org/forums/show...53&postcount=7
http://www.eqclerics.org/forums/showthread.php?t=103
06-05-2000, 04:55 PM
^ Thanks for helping me prove my point Neolm, such a relevant post.

Zereh, Sirken, and any other moran still wondering:
The question being asked by the OP is NOT: "Heres why resists suck so bad.." OR "Why do resists suck so bad?" OR "Heres how you fix resists"
The question being asked IS: "Why are we implementing this SHITTY CUSTOM resist system, on a CLASSIC server?"
Please stay on topic, you fucking morans


http://everquest.allakhazam.com/history/patches.html
It's clear certain players & developers have no interest in a classic experience, even though this is advertised as classic (boggling???), so im just done arguing.

Resist Feedback post 11/6/2011 - 18/6/2012
still bad and non-classic

please make resists classic and i will log in. that means not being stunned and rooted. period.

Even though they call this classic, its not. Its custom and its shitty. LoZ on the other hand is custom, and its fun.
If you are stuck playing custom, then why play shit, when you can have fun?

classic eq pvp wasnt about getting rooted or snared or hit by anything magic base. there were whole other aspects that required entirely different skillset that is nonexistant here. not classic

this server caters to zergs and there is no skill required in pvp. doomed from the start. Null - fix resists. What makes you think that you can add a custom mechanic into the server when everyone else on the project is trying to make this classic.

Ah classic resists, that would be nice

in live a player could take on a group, and a group could take on a raid. Here they just get spam root/snare and zergged down. completely different game requiring no skill like it did on live, catering to the zerg bluebie armies

with the huge RNG factor for resisting CC spells on this server, the strategy in any situation becomes 'spam cc spells' instead of use tactics/strategies/skills that you learned/developed/used on live (like jousting for example). creating a truly un-classic experience




And this one's for Arzak (http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=84845):



Not classic. No interest. Mages were weak?.. ya crack in your cornflakes this morning? You obviously didn't play 5 minutes of EQ live. Been trolling us this long Rydar, Trollborn, Crystalblue claiming all these EQ merit badges and don't know the fundaments of the classes.

We didn't come here for

http://i.imgur.com/IcL4L.png

[Tune]

Yeah..... Right.

I don't care who has what resist. Or what gear.

Lets be honest. Its classic mechanics we are after.

If you aren't interested in reproducing those.....

Move along.....

red flag

how are you going to adjust a resist system when you don't take into consideration the resists that are available to characters in game?

[Grimjaw]

cuz shits classic ya feels?

[Haynar]

red flag

how are you going to adjust a resist system when you don't take into consideration the resists that are available to characters in game?
I am not adjusting the resist system every 3 months because everyone got 25 points higher in their resists. Please.

H

[quido]

Nonetheless, the gear quotient should be considered when initially calibrating the system.

[Haynar]

Nonetheless, the gear quotient should be considered when initially calibrating the system.
I have something thats working for AC adjustments and resist changes.

Will it go out? Will see after more tests.

It is a start. More adjustments may be needed. Have to start somewhere.

H

[Dullah]

Yeah..... Right.

I don't care who has what resist. Or what gear.

Lets be honest. Its classic mechanics we are after.

If you aren't interested in reproducing those.....

Move along.....

Don't get me wrong, I'd rather have classic than what we have now.

I salute you for your work. Its generally a thankless job.

[Nirgon]

The lure potency bard songs were absolutely bad. Denon's and chants didn't land this reliably on live.

I think you'll find with the resist changes and your insane bard speed/resist songs.... that things will be JUST fine for you as a bard.

Plus? Double tash (with a bard) should be coming to a pixel experience near you, Haynar is on the trail :).

[Haynar]

I missed getting changes made before they patched beta. But first round is coded. Also added to exempt environmental damage (falls, drowning) from causing exp loss.

Next time Rogean patches beta, they should be there so you can test in arena's or duels.

Overall my tests looked encouraging.

H

[Haynar]

Don't get me wrong, I'd rather have classic than what we have now.

I salute you for your work. Its generally a thankless job.

It may not be totally classic, but it should be better. At least heading in right direction. Or maybe just will make for some good pvp.

H

[Nirgon]

I missed getting changes made before they patched beta. But first round is coded. Also added to exempt environmental damage (falls, drowning) from causing exp loss.

Next time Rogean patches beta, they should be there so you can test in arena's or duels.

Overall my tests looked encouraging.

H

Look at dis guy.

So much effort to make shit so classic, won't accept as much as an outback gift card.

8]

[Not Salem]

looking forward to testing the pvp in velious beta, pras

[Not Salem]

just to confirm, changes went with the last velious patch, yeah?

[Colgate]

no, pretty sure he meant he coded it all out but didn't apply it to the patch and that the next beta patch should have it

[Not Salem]

beta was just patched last night through the early am's

[Colgate]

o idk

[Haynar]

Changes patched to beta last night.

So its there to test now.

H

[Not Salem]

excellent, just making a few level 1 casters on my accounts and ill be on to check it out if anyone wants to join me

[Colgate]

word i'll try to get on there on colgate in a min, having trouble getting on from this computer

[Not Salem]

if things pan out ill probs just play velious beta /duel'ing random bl00bs as they come through thurgadin

[Nirgon]

I'll hop over 2nite :).

I hope we can keep this beta server for a while after Velious is released as the "try out the changes box" (testing out bolts/buff stacking/dispelling etc in the future).

[Not Salem]

first few sunstrikes is a little underwheling

unbuffed @ 170* fire I got hit for

full damage
full resist
78 damage
780 damage
full damage

obviously 5 sunstrikes isn't much of a sample though, need someone to box a healer?

-------

----------

190 cold resist

fully resisted 4 draughts, getting hit for 225 / 385 / 417 by 3

--------------


for sure noticing my melee hits as an SK vs a wizard are hitting for LESS it feels, going afk for a bit though will check back to see if anyone else is on to mess around

[Haynar]

Underwhelming as too much or too little damage?

H

[Technique]

unbuffed @ 170* fire I got hit for

780 damage
At 160 FR, sunstrike will resist 80%. Have 18% partials. 2% full. Partial will hit for 8 - 28%.72% partial. Sounds like it's working as intended :rolleyes:

[Haynar]

72% partial. Sounds like it's working as intended :rolleyes:

Used a bit different model. That was 2 versions ago. And it does spot on what i coded it to do. Partials span a better range.

H

[Technique]

I'm pretty sure what Salem means by "underwhelming" is that it's still like the current system in which spell damage is wildly erratic.

With the possibility of full resists, now we have the possibility of one sunstrike landing for max, the next landing for zero. This extreme randomness isn't conducive to good PvP.

[Haynar]

I'm pretty sure what Salem means by "underwhelming" is that it's still like the current system in which spell damage is wildly erratic.

With the possibility of full resists, now we have the possibility of one sunstrike landing for max, the next landing for zero. This extreme randomness isn't conducive to good PvP.

No resists and only fulls and partials are better?

[Haynar]

It can be made so at a given resist, it does something specific. Can take the randomness out. But I understood there should be randomness.

H

[Daldaen]

I'm pretty sure what Salem means by "underwhelming" is that it's still like the current system in which spell damage is wildly erratic.

With the possibility of full resists, now we have the possibility of one sunstrike landing for max, the next landing for zero. This extreme randomness isn't conducive to good PvP.

This is exactly what classic PvP was like. And is the exact reason many people stayed away from PvP.

[Haynar]

I can balance the randomness, with maintaining a classic "dps".

But what is best?

H

[Colgate]

just tested a few

6 sunstrikes casted on even con 248 fire resist

3 full resists, one hit for 1082(max), one for 932, one for 731

AC seems a lot better though, average hit on an unbuffed wizard that had 525 AC with a tstaff(normal max hit used to be around 130-140) is like 50-60, only one out of like 30 swings was over 100 damage

[Kergan]

first few sunstrikes is a little underwheling

unbuffed @ 170* fire I got hit for

full damage
full resist
78 damage
780 damage
full damage

obviously 5 sunstrikes isn't much of a sample though, need someone to box a healer?

-------

----------

190 cold resist

fully resisted 4 draughts, getting hit for 225 / 385 / 417 by 3

--------------


for sure noticing my melee hits as an SK vs a wizard are hitting for LESS it feels, going afk for a bit though will check back to see if anyone else is on to mess around

btw you can box on Velious beta I think?

[Kergan]

just tested a few

6 sunstrikes casted on even con 248 fire resist

3 full resists, one hit for 1082(max), one for 932, one for 731

AC seems a lot better though, average hit on an unbuffed wizard that had 525 AC with a tstaff(normal max hit used to be around 130-140) is like 50-60, only one out of like 30 swings was over 100 damage

Hmm I thought the AC change would make casters take more dmg at low AC not less?

[Haynar]

Yes u can box there. No we arent tracking who boxes there.

H

[Haynar]

Hmm I thought the AC change would make casters take more dmg at low AC not less?

I take it you want me to bump it back up?

Gonna quit saying what prelim results are, and start making it a suprise.

Hard to please anyone.

H

[Not Salem]

Sorry haynar, I wasn't watching the forums. I just felt it was a bit underwhelming that even with all my gear put into resists, I was still getting hit for full damage pretty often, It seems pretty RNG based for the wizards right now, like a coin flip that you will just rip through someone with full damage or close to full damage hits, or just get flat resisted the whole time.

I would still feel it's viable with this system to dump a load of draughts on someone and if RNG was NOT in your favor just yonder away and try again after you have stabilized, with a good chance of dropping your target on the 2nd round even if he's 200+ in his FR / CR.


Really enjoying the melee and AC changes though, I was feeling I was hitting for less against both monks and wizards, and getting hit for less against the monk. Also getting hit for more while naked vs geared was good.. Need a few more classes though to really test out the viability of wearing AC armor vs other stats, but in general this is a good change.

[Not Salem]

Also Haynar, I believe me and colgate are the only people who have tested it so far, would wait till we get some more people / classes on board before taking any of our words, just relaying it the general public at the moment, hopefully get some interest in other people to log on and test.

[Colgate]

draught of ice(-10 resist check) @ 176 cold resist, even con, 489 is max hit

489
216
489
full resist
250
332
full resist
46
full resist
full resist
290
full resist
489
489
full resist
full resist

seemed about consistent with sunstrike values at 248 fire

agree with salem about AC, definitely a noticeable difference between ~600 AC and ~900 AC(naked vs geared 60 SK), and it feels like i'm hitting for a lot lower in general, it's a very nice change

resists still feel very luck centric, where you might land 4 full damage casts in a row and i'm dead, or i'll flat out resist 4 in a row and you're dead; it's certainly an improvement over before, though, but if we wanna get it classic, i should be seeing full resists or very low hit partials pretty much across the board with high/full damage hits being rare anomalies at those resist amounts

[Colgate]

another draught of ice test, this time at 136 cold resist

101
489
full resist
full resist
489
489
489
235
full resist
389
489
328
489
489
489

[Not Salem]

conclusion is, still viable to draught someone with 140 cold resist

[Haynar]

conclusion is, still viable to draught someone with 140 cold resist

And should you at that resist?

[Colgate]

at 140 cold resist you should only really be taking cold damage from lure of ice/frost

[Haynar]

So current 140 is reasonable for what resist?

H

[Nirgon]

Player cased poison/disease dots should be like impossible to land at 140 pr/dr. Even just a DMF was enough to block all but ... well really all attempts to venom of snake/ebolt given even levels.

Having the 1hb stein of moggok and the offhand stein of moggok (yes you could have both) and resistant skin up with rune scale cloak on was enough for me to resist every asystole and scourge if that helps.

At 180 fire resist on live, a druid in city faction Velious gear would go oom trying to straight out wildfire spam me with my epic shield up.

I realize these aren't mathematical representations of what should happen, but anything you do to get it to resemble that experience as closely as possible really is just such a huge improvement here.

[Not Salem]

I guess i feel like resists havent changed much, on red99 I felt like I was getting partials more often, which has just been replaced on this system by full resists / full damage hits. Sunstrike and Draught of ICe are still viable.

Unfortunately haynar I can't tell you how it was in classic as I didn't play, can only tell you about how it's hitting :p log on and give us some clarity V or something?

[Haynar]

I have a model that shifts it lower, and makes the partials lower. This was my highest damage model.

H

[Colgate]

definitely needs that shift if you wanna get it closer to classic; the amount of resists you see at like 100-120+ should be enough to convince any caster not to try and cast any of these 0 modifier or -10 modifier nukes on you

[Nirgon]

Ya 140 should be like you're making small hits if anything per cast with most being full resists on the DD lines.

I guess once we nail down direct damage/dot lines, we can test stuff like mez/blind/stuns and let you know. Not sure what is tied to the other behind the scenes.


An NPC we can hail on beta to full our hp/mana would be insanely nice to have for all this and probably the minimum we'd ask :)

[Colgate]

tested draught of fire (-10 resist mod) at 208 fire resist, 460 is max hit

460
full resist
363
439
261
460
full resist
92
460
full resist
460
265
312
full resist

[Not Salem]

can we try one of the lower models? I think after the draught tests it's safe these spells are hitting to hard

[Haynar]

can we try one of the lower models? I think after the draught tests it's safe these spells are hitting to hard
I will have to do some coding. I know there are some other changes they need to iron out for beta. So might get it patched up soon.

Its not just constant changes, there are a few equation changes too.

Will work on getting changes pushed to svn later after i do a little testing.

H

[Technique]

No resists and only fulls and partials are better?A resisted nuke and one that lands for full damage should both be outlier events of the sort determined by a flat chance. Both should be rare exceptions, not the rule.

Everything in between should be subject to being partialed, with the target's resist value determining the lower bound of the damage range over which the partial function's probability curve extends (a normal distribution, preferably with a negative mean and variance < 1). This would make the effect that resists have more reliable across the entire range of values and without diminishing the necessity of dispels/debuffs.

Is that strictly classic? No.

But neither is a system being built around a couple anecdotes claiming "oh, I remember fully resisting around X% of nukes and partialing maybe Y% for about Z% damage at some arbitrary resist value 14 years ago", that leads to nukes being indiscriminately resisted with great frequency, including ones that were historically used as pushback interrupts because of their reliability.
the amount of resists you see at like 100-120+ should be enough to convince any caster not to try and cast any of these 0 modifier or -10 modifier nukes on youBecause any caster that's not a necro or a wizard has nukes (or really any damage spells, excepting druid swarm dot line) with negative mods to choose from, huh.

[Nirgon]

^ No, a full resist on a direct damage spell (with no resist mod) from an even con target at 248 fire resist should be the most common thing that happens.

You should have to dispel and debuff a fully resist geared target accordingly to damage them.

This makes the risk vs reward good (hi everquest) both ways with item loot.

If you are confident enough to wear a froglok crown/diamond resist ring? Good. You are risking (something easy to get tbh) for that reward in pvp.

If any arguments arise that try to make it seem "impossible" to harm other players, I am happy to provide strategic details in private :). Minds have been rotted by the current "everything is a lure spell" system.

What WILL be impossible is to just spam lava bolt or whatever on someone fully buffed in a resist suit without dispelling them and/or debuffing them. Item loot is also good to alleviate the "everyone running around in full resist gear at no risk" issue (h8d this about Sullon/non item loot pvp servers... but they were teams so o well). Item loot is also fun, provided you don't have a nervous break down over losing a 9mr necklace or froglok crown (which can't be looted if the killer already has one..). It keeps people logging in and camps contested. People logging in is good, contested areas to seek pvp outside of 50 people waiting on a raid mob spawn is also good.

[Colgate]

i'm not saying you're wrong about casters being weaker after these proposed changes, but what you want isn't classic. the goal of this project is as close to classic and the spirit of classic as possible. there are custom pvp servers(salty's iteration of vztz, rolfron zek, legacy of zek, etc.) out there, i suggest you play there considering haynar has already stated that his aim is to replicate the classic pvp mechanics.

[Dullah]

I take it you want me to bump it back up?

Gonna quit saying what prelim results are, and start making it a suprise.

Hard to please anyone.

H

You'll never please everyone, but if a 29 dmg 2h is doing 50s avg on a caster thats off.

I used an IFS during kunark/velious and it crunched pretty hard. Saw a classic screenshot the other day on bug forum where Rienne was doing 60-70 dmg against another rogue (much higher than 500 ac).

[Dullah]

Best thing you could do for casters is fix the way channeling works because something was done in the last several patches that makes interrupts based on a chance instead of the amount of push. Even if a caster is stuck up in a corner without levitate, they still get interrupted and that isn't right.

[Technique]

^ No, a full resist on a direct damage spell (with no resist mod) from an even con target at 248 fire resist should be the most common thing that happens.What's the difference between a very low partial (which would most likely occur at that resist value in the type of system I'm proposing) and a full resist?

Damage-wise? Practically nothing.

The difference is that in the former case, spells like shock of lightning that were used to interrupt will still have an effect (hi strategy that nirgon is always talking about but doesn't seem to understand) instead of being resisted so often that it's stupid to even think of casting it.


This makes the risk vs reward good (hi everquest) both ways with item loot.

If you are confident enough to wear a froglok crown/diamond resist ring? Good. You are risking (something easy to get tbh) for that reward in pvp.When are you going to get it through your head that item loot will not be happening on this server? Stop trying to use it as a justification for ersatz classic resists.

the goal of this project is as close to classic and the spirit of classic as possible. there are custom pvp servers(salty's iteration of vztz, rolfron zek, legacy of zek, etc.) out there, i suggest you play there considering haynar has already stated that his aim is to replicate the classic pvp mechanics.The problem with this approach is that genuinely classic pvp resists were governed by more unknown factors than probably any other subsystem in this game. There's no hard evidence or information upon which to even begin modeling a classic system, the best he can hope to do is align its output with a few foggy recollections of the past.

[Colgate]

nirgon has already stated numerous times there will be outlying spells that have their own unique effects, like shock of lightning, and shouldn't fall under the general resist code

[Technique]

Unless Nirgon is Haynar, then anything he claims is irrelevant.

And Nirgon's not gonna be the one who has to chase down all these exceptions and then spend time cluttering up the codebase with special-case PvP-only rules for all of them just to preserve this artificially classic resist system that's in the works.

[Nirgon]

When are you going to get it through your head that item loot will not be happening on this server? Stop trying to use it as a justification for ersatz classic resists.


Well, Nilbog says he wants it here :).

I was told that there would never be blue sparkle emitters on 39+ caster buffing... I was told bolts would never work/change... I was told invis pulling could never be fixed... I was told the devs have no control over the software they are working with here... I've been told a lot of things over my nearly 4 years posting in the bugs section on this account. Guess how much I listen to naysayers?

I have absolutely 0 control over what goes in. I can only share my experiences playing with the devs. I think from that they are able to put in what they feel is the "closest to classic" thing they can implement... and whatever is patched in I feel like hits the nail on the head pretty hard.

Where the many others in the community and I differ is understanding how this process is going to work. After a change goes in, we need to look around for odds and ends that need to be addressed after a huge mechanical change goes in and constructively report that information, and hopefully they can take care of that too. What I see happening is that usually something that wasn't even working before is implemented and there's some strange behaviors/unintended things that happen as a result. This is just going to happen and is a given for any major change. Instead of using these outliers as an excuse to tear everything down, I'd suggest reporting your findings as specifically as possible. What's even better is Haynar has been all over the bugs section knocking out crazy shit that's been untouched for years. And to be quite honest? He's been super interactive and responsive, I suspect because he takes a lot of pride in his efforts. To that end, if you scum up the Holy of Holies (bugs section).. he is probably going to put you on ignore or worse you may discourage him from wanting to help... which puts us back to... guess where.

There's going to be things to resolve after these changes go in, and I'll do my best to test every single spell on the beta cuz I'm a big classic junkies/sucker. Much moreso than that, there is going to be quite a large play style adjustment for people who aren't familiar with how things SHOULD work... I might be a huge classic junkie, sucker and coach to anyone thinking about quitting as a result.. if yer a good pal 2 me :).

- From the desk of Dr. Nirgon DDS, dictated but not read

PS: I guess if your hope was that they couldn't change/fix things to make them classic here and you liked the broken mechanics.... that hope is beginning to wane.. and you better start hoping for classic EQ... cuz it looks like its comin'.

[Technique]

PS: I guess if your hope was that they couldn't change/fix things to make them classic here and you liked the broken mechanics.... that hope is beginning to wane.. and you better start hoping for classic EQ... cuz it looks like its comin'.Blah blah blah...

Quote me even so much as implying that null's bullshit system should be left ingame and untouched.

Posting nearly fifteen thousand times has given you the endurance to be tirelessly stupid.

[Nirgon]

I mean call me crazy its just you don't strike me as someone who wants a classic ffa pvp server very badly.

Looking forward to testing Haynar's stuffs :).

And ... HEY. Null laid the ground work, Alecta fixed it up in some areas and Haynar's got the license to kill to change and fix away from here. That's at least how I see it. All of these men are saints.

[Mac Drettj]

This guy is Techniquelly mad in eveey bug thread he sees.

No surprise it's Strydurs rage pal.

Gj H

I just reread page 1 to last during my days to get happy.

[Mac Drettj]

Moving to New thread to not derail.

[Technique]

Pretty funny that business as usual for retti, an incontinent pigeon of a poster who spends his days shitspackling the forums with stupidity and exaggerated nonsense, resulted in r99 finally getting some dev attention.

I guess if you keep crapping on a parked car long enough, someone's eventually going to wash it.

[Mac Drettj]

I'm the OP in this super thread. Feels goog.

[Colgate]

did a few tests, 20 casts each:

208 fire, sunstrike, -10 modifier, 1082 max hit
resist
1082
resist
125
753
resist
765
1082
860
152
159
resist
288
1082
1082
resist
resist
resist
1082
138

at this resist level(198 after modifier), i should be seeing pretty much only full resists and very low damage partials, with extremely rare high damage partial or full hit

150 magic, rend, 0 modifier, 525 max hit
525
525
177
48
525
resist
175
510
525
183
44
62
resist
192
525
525
resist
511
resist
282

at this resist level(150), i should be seeing mostly full resists and low damage partials, with a few midrange hits and very uncommon high damage partials, rare full hits


136 cold, draught of ice, -10 modifier, 489 max hit
143
489
431
489
489
227
489
resist
489
489
489
resist
97
resist
93
318
resist
resist
489
489

at this resist level(126 after modifier) i should start to reliably see full resists, low damage partials, and some midrange/high damage partials, uncommon full hits

---------------------------------

in every case, the spells are simply hitting too hard too often, especially the frequency of max hits

tried testing resist levels and the nukes above at sub-100 resist values, but it seems to be almost exclusively max hits with uncommon partials/full resists

[Nirgon]

Sunstrike looks like it should be working as if the target has about 80-90 fire instead of 208 from that small sample. Draught of ice lookin like it could use a few more partials instead of max hits and it would be right for 90 cold.

Then again, Haynar said he got something else brewin' and this was the first round. So I guess we'll wait till he rings da dinner bell again.

One more thing is that I see this working out kind of like how ac/atk is going. We are given a better base set of code, and then tweak individuals and one offs from there.

[Grimjaw]

that rend should have been resists across the board. no tash or malo no fucking landing

[Nirgon]

that rend should have been resists across the board. no tash or malo no fucking landing

Ya shouldn't land at all. Rend should also have push back like shock of lightning if it does not already here.

I have more on channeling vs shock of lightning push type spells but I'm saving that for when channeling/push is visited in PVP. It might also actually shed some light on if things are working as far as being pushed vs channeling in pve tbh.

[Colgate]

for haynar, to get a bit of a better idea with some more concrete evidence:

http://www.eqclerics.org/forums/showthread.php?t=103

posted on 06-05-2000

However by 50, our 500 point DD (retribution) is next to useless, it is so easy to resist. Most people you will be trying to kill with it, if theyre not completely inept, will be wearing a lot of throw away resistance gear. It only takes maybe 40 or 50 points of magic resistance and our spells will be doing next to no damage (maybe 100 dmg with luck, wont even dent a wizzie at that level).

also interesting find here:

One of the biggest, most crucial things I've learned is that our level 5 or 9 dd (i forget which, tho i think lvl 5) is called Furor...and it cost under 20 mana with a cast time of something like 1.5. This spell is amazing- it interrupts an opponents casting 9 out of 10 times as long as their backs are not to a wall. Unlike our stuns which I used to use to interrupt casters, this spell is almost never resisted and costs virtually no mana.

[Grimjaw]

ya furor was good

[Colgate]

seems like these low level MR based knockback/DD spells were almost unresistable(damage could be partial'd to hell though)

shock of lightning, shock of blades, furor, brusco's boastful bellow

[Mac Drettj]

seems like these low level MR based knockback/DD spells were almost unresistable(damage could be partial'd to hell though)

shock of lightning, shock of blades, furor, brusco's boastful bellow

[Yumyums Inmahtumtums]

What about chaotic feedback? I remember hearing that one was nearly unresistable

[Haynar]

Good lord this gets compkicated.

H

[Nirgon]

I think what's happening here Haynar is kinda like the ac/atk changes.

Get a good base down then we can find a way to deal with 1 offs? There aren't too many.


For example: you nail down all the fire/cold/magic dd issues.

Then we give you lists of spells by category that should behave differently and what that should be.

IE:
->most issues resolved with base fix.
->We give a follow up of "these magic resist based spells should be nearly impossible to fully resist" and go from there (one off but grouped by behavior)

[Technique]

What about chaotic feedback? I remember hearing that one was nearly unresistable
I can usually land chaotic feedback on pc's with 450+ mr, it stops spellcasting and spells, which is why I use it in combination with recant to strip bard buffs/songshttp://www.therunes.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=898
I chase them with this and constantly stun with Chaotic Feedback so I can score hits. CF hits pretty regularly even if you have 350 magic resist.http://www.therunes.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=5942
Although these days it probably doesn't matter much, but cf used to be a huge agro draw since it has the stun component. (this was great in pvp cause the stun was never resisted)http://www.therunes.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=10709&start=50
At level 65 given ok gear the pally should have sufficient mr to stop near all your spells. No slow, no cripple, no nukes (cept the level 8 one -almost never resisted and interrupts).http://www.therunes.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3805

Those quotes are all from 2003 onward, but I believe CF had always worked this way. I played an enchanter on SZ in 2001 and never recall it being partialed either. In all the classic spdats I've viewed, the spell is parsed differently than the other enchanter nukes, as a DoT with a 1 tick duration instead of a DD, which may have something to do with that.
Chaotic Feedback
DoT for between 43 (L8) to 48 (L13) Hit Points (HP) in 1 ticks
Stuns target

[Technique]

Rend should also have push back like shock of lightning if it does not already here.Rend has no pushback in any classic (original/kunark/velious) spdat nor even on Live.

Better get that spell file in your head checked.

[derpcake]

Rend has no pushback in any classic (original/kunark/velious) spdat nor even on Live.

Better get that spell file in your head checked.

He posts a lot of misinformation, I decided to put him on ignore.

Go for that and stop quoting drivel :)

[Nirgon]

I know lightning shock shouldn't have it (39) but I was interrupted by rends on live when trying to ice comet less fortunate wizards.

Derpcake has also chosen to assist others in telling lies about the necro healing recourse. I could say the exact same about him.

Not one single reference was ever found to anyone being able to dispel such a low mana heal, amazing. Pretty easy to trace where the turning the bug section into RNF usually starts... especially in this thread.

Given Rend was so rarely used, I'll stop caring.

I posted this and can't find any info on it either....

I can also attest to this fact, rains should hit 3 times with an unlimited number of targets in PVP only, PVE had the 5 target maximum limitation so as to not be exploited.

But would this be a big change? J/w.

[Haynar]

He posts a lot of misinformation, I decided to put him on ignore.

Go for that and stop quoting drivel :)
I put him on ignore long ago. Seems to either have 3 different ppl posting or multiple personalities.

H

[Mac Drettj]

Lol

[Colgate]

any updates large H?

[Zalaerian]

any updates large H?

[Haynar]

Waiting on patch for beta.

I think i have rain spells hitting unlimited pc targets in pvp now too.

[Grimjaw]

u rock!! Keep up the great work

[Mac Drettj]

Waiting on patch for beta.

I think i have rain spells hitting unlimited pc targets in pvp now too.

Oh lord that's going to cause some funny quadra and pentakills.

How do AoEs fit into the new resist system?

[Pudge]

I put him on ignore long ago. Seems to either have 3 different ppl posting or multiple personalities.

H

wait you put nirgon on ignore? lol the guy you quoting here was talking about nirgon.

also i agree with technique... dont fuck the resists too much pls. i thought the "high" damage that you had implemented actually looked good. casting nukes WAS like "rolling the dice" - could be great, could be a waste

[Colgate]

naw he's attempting to recreate classic

fuck this custom shit, we've had 10 different custom pvp boxes that all failed miserably

time for some classic resists dawg

[nilbog]

time for some classic resists dawg