Bard swarming ruins classic experience.

[rxfh]

I'll preface by saying - I played a bard from Luclin thru GoD and loved the class. Now, I feel they're ruining quite a few zones. Have you tried exping in LOIO or OT? Or any other open outdoor zone without a faction hit?

This was totally not part of classic. No one had a computer or internet connection stable enough to pull such huge chunks of zones, over 30 mobs per pull. This didn't start until PoP, in PoN/PoD and HoH.

Is this something that is going to be address in Velious? I can't see investing more time in this game only to have giant tracts of zones totally overrun by bards - thinking about all the outdoor Velious zones I can see it being a total joke.

I imagine the coding would be complicated, but it seems like, if more than 6 or 8 mobs are on a player for more than N number of minutes, reset those mobs and ignore all aggro / damage from that player (or any player until it reaches its spawn point).

This swarm kiting was not the classic experience and it sucks.

I love p99 and have been having lots of fun but I'm disappointed to see a lot of the zones I used to level in being essentially wastelands while a few players dominate the entire zone. It seems to violate the 'play nice' policy and the spirit of p99, the classic experience.

If there is no plans to address this in Velious I'd love to know, so I can cut the cord before I invest more time..

[Hogfather]

PNP 8.0

Zone/Area Disruption is defined as any activity designed to harm or inconvenience a number of groups rather than a specific player or group of players. This includes, but is not limited to::

-Monopolizing most or all of the kills in an area
Seems to be a straight forward violation of p1999 PnP?

[Bazia]

For all that is holy OP do not ever, and I mean EVER go to Chardok.

[tanknspank]

It's not classic, but I haven't seen it be the issue you make it out to be. For example I XPed in OT Sunday evening, US time. Yes there were a few bards out there, but there were plenty of mobs left. I've XPed in LOIO as well (sarnak fort) quite a few times on my druid too.

To be honest if they wanted to fix it, there's a simpler way than resetting mobs like that. Considering bards have to keep mobs in a very narrow distance range to AoE them but not get hit, all they would have to do is add a slight jitter in the mob speed/position calculation causing damage to either be missed (mob too far) or the bard to get hit (mob too close). This would have very little effect on regular pulling / kiting since other classes use spells/bows with a much longer range.

[iruinedyourday]

go get your shine box

[Ivory]

Bard mass kiting is classic :P I was doing it after Velious released :P

[Potus]

Bard AE kiting is actually the most classic thing ever.

Swarm kiting on the other hand, does that exist here yet? I recall the aggro being off on it.

[Kekephee]

If there is no plans to address this in Velious I'd love to know, so I can cut the cord before I invest more time..

Pretty dumb reason to quit this game, especially when Velious comes out and tons and tons of non-AE kiting content is opened up, including ToFS which can carry you from like 15 to 40 or some ludicrous amount of levels like that. You're essentially saying "let me know if you're not going to fix this problem, so that I can leave before this problem fixes itself." And if you think outdoor zones are going to be full of AE kiters, think about some of the mobs that are present in those outdoor zones- giants, wurms, shit with huge hitboxes. And also think about the size of those zones and how impractical it's going to be to try and run through the whole zone grabbing shit up.


Before you ask, I have from the day I learned how to AE kite strongly felt that bards who pull the entire zone are total assholes. So I strongly agree with you that it shouldn't happen. But come on.

[Brocode]

Easy solution, change zones, evolve. http://wiki.project1999.com/Zones

I mean really, if you enjoy the game, enjoy the game, and being able to aggro a whole zone is part of Everquest, if you are trying to change it, better change game.

GMs would aggro a full zones on betas to test if they would support its lag before making it live, kiteable or not.

Meaning just because you feel it affects you and your circle in a negative way, does not mean its not part of the game.

[iruinedyourday]

easier solution, go home, get shine box.

[Kekephee]

easier solution, go home, get shine box.

Yewww fuckin' mutt yewwwwww

[nicemace]

there was nothing about the mechanics of the game that prevented this. its just that when we played in classic we werent exactly in the everything is widespread information over the internet stage. with x number of years comes x number of experience... people returning to play on classic mechanics are going to use their years of experience to an advantage. you cant do anything about that and you SHOULDN'T do anything about it.

as far as the game goes. this IS classic.

[Bboboo]

Been a while since one of these threads.

[Darkyle]

You named 2 zones out of god knows how many that are popular bard hot spots. I can't understand to this day why people go to them to exp, I leveled all my toons BUT bard anywhere but OT for this reason.

I've been straight up refused to join groups on my bard because of my penalty, maybe if people stopped bitching about exp gain then I wouldn't have had to kite as much as I did.

[iruinedyourday]

Been a while since one of these threads.

:D

[Lopretni]

Easy solution, change zones, evolve. http://wiki.project1999.com/Zones

I mean really, if you enjoy the game, enjoy the game, and being able to aggro a whole zone is part of Everquest, if you are trying to change it, better change game.

GMs would aggro a full zones on betas to test if they would support its lag before making it live, kiteable or not.

Meaning just because you feel it affects you and your circle in a negative way, does not mean its not part of the game.

Seriously Norrath is a big fucking place, not every single zone has a Bard taking every single mob.

[Messianic]

Uh. I had a bard friend on classic who was able to kill entire Velious zones using the old swarm tactics (not the ones bards here use, which have more limitations).

So I dunno what you want done.

[bspa0700]

Someone please wake me up when one of these threads gets started, and the person mentions a zone not named LOIO or OT.

[Swish]

It's often powerlevelers too, you MUST farm as many TunnelQuest tokens as possible before Velious! ALL OF YOU!

Mass inflation in 3...2...1...

[Rhambuk]

Been a while since one of these threads.

yeah i was thinking that too. Was grouped in oasis last night and started noticing all the mobs were gone. Saw one bard kiting half the zone, and another bard power leveling a noob while aeing the other half. Peoeple started hollering in zone about how all bards are assholes etc. The group next to us disbanded and left.

I just kept pulling and if i couldnt find a mob up peel one off his 60mob train and continue a long.

no one follows #8 anyway and goodluck getting it enforced

[Daldaen]

Most of these threads involve Overthere. Which is dumb since most bards don't pull tigers or rhinos. Which is a large number of mobs left.

[Lopretni]

I just kept pulling and if i couldnt find a mob up peel one off his 60mob train and continue a long.

Seriously just do this, if nothing else HE can fuck off to a desolate zone nobody levels in.

[Portasaurus]

Roll a chef and make sandwiches for Nomsanto (http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=133576)! I've been playing this game for almost 3 years and I have never been cockblocked by a bard once whilst gathering ingredients or slow roasting Norrath's choicest cuts of meat.

We pay competitive salary and offer a nice 80/20 plan covering most diseases and poisons.

PM if interested.

[indiscriminate_hater]

here we go again... again

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2008/03_03/stiller4_468x199.jpg

[Daywolf]

hah I see bards in CB during peak doing this, then groups of non-bards falling apart as the zone is picked clean. Yeah, the thing about it most everyone being on dial-up back then is a detouring factor to this. As expansions rolled out, land increased, people started getting broadband access, so wasn't really an issue. Pretty much, when on my drui and in a newbie zone, seeing a lvl2 bard spanking the newbie area, no drui buffs for youuuuu.

Good point, but then there is nothing that can really be done. What, throttle everyone's connection on the server? eh...
Well I don't play here for 'nostalgia', it's just a superior game compared to most anything of today.

[myriverse]

So much undeserved hate for the music men.

[Whirled]

So much undeserved hate for the music men.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1M0eMkcc91E

Gonna roll a bard now~:D

[SenoraRaton]

Had a bard kiting the pit in FoB.... 40 people in zone most below level 10. No mobs in the pit for anyone to kill because the bard was taking the entire thing. Dick move. Negatively impacting other players experience, and experience of the game sucks. Taking entire zones as your "own" sucks. Pulling a mob off of his train and killing one mob every 7 minutes sucks.

[iruinedyourday]

No mobs to kill in newbie zone? Shiiits clllassic!!

[SenoraRaton]

No mobs to kill in newbie zone? Shiiits clllassic!!

You are lost good sir. Please go back to the troll haven that is Red.

[iruinedyourday]

You are lost good sir. Please go back to the troll haven that is Red.

Clearly you do not remember 1999.

or have any semblance of a sense of humor.

[Glenzig]

Had a bard kiting the pit in FoB.... 40 people in zone most below level 10. No mobs in the pit for anyone to kill because the bard was taking the entire thing. Dick move. Negatively impacting other players experience, and experience of the game sucks. Taking entire zones as your "own" sucks. Pulling a mob off of his train and killing one mob every 7 minutes sucks.

There aren't any mobs of that level outside of the pit?

[kaev]

Simplest solution is to code outdoor zones so that any Bard over L12 who is present for more than 5 minutes is banished to Paw. If you're feeling nice you could allow exceptions for CoM and KC. Any Bard worth a damn belongs in a dungeon group anyway.

[indiscriminate_hater]

Simplest solution is to code outdoor zones so that any Bard over L12 who is present for more than 5 minutes is banished to Paw. If you're feeling nice you could allow exceptions for CoM and KC. Any Bard worth a damn belongs in a dungeon group anyway.

that's not what the word 'solution' means

[Derubael]

You can petition if you feel a player is taking up too many mobs in a zone.

We do appreciate it if you attempt polite conversation with the player you are petitiong first, however, and try to work something out so that everyone can share the zone in peace - this is almost always the first thing I will do when called into a situation like this. Obviously if a compromised can't be reached for whatever reason, I'll usually just limit the bard to a single camp and they'll leave on their own accord (after raging at me in tells for a bit).

Bottom line, for me, is that I'm more interested in making sure the group of 6 trying to XP has mobs to kill than the 1 bard PL'ing someone for platinum. This goes double for newbie zones, where a lot of people get their first impression of P99 and really start to "relive" Everquest.

[sox7d]

Bottom line, for me, is that I'm more interested in making sure the group of 6 trying to XP has mobs to kill than the 1 bard PL'ing someone for platinum. This goes double for newbie zones, where a lot of people get their first impression of P99 and really start to "relive" Everquest.

Can this please be engraved on a plaque and placed in CB, unrest, MM and fuck it, CoM?

[toolshed]

People are so bored on Kunark right now that everyone is rolling ridiculously twinked alts or trying out bards it seems.

It's either a bard at the camp or some rogue with a fungi and epic since lvl 1 monopolizing the camps; had a rogue last night with a fungi, epic, and a camped/boxed lvl 60 cleric to buff/heal... how bad of player do you need to be that a fungi and epic at lvl 30 isn't enough??

And honestly it wouldn't be that big of a deal if the uber-twinks weren't the biggest assholes I've met on P99. Not only do they monopolize zones, but they are rude and arrogant; none of the crazy twinks ever want to duo a camp, but will gladly inspect and mock you for wearing new gear.

I guess I haven't had that bad of a time with bards....it's every rogue I meet with a fungi+epic+asshole that isn't classic

[Juntsie]

You can petition if you feel a player is taking up too many mobs in a zone.

We do appreciate it if you attempt polite conversation with the player you are petitiong first, however, and try to work something out so that everyone can share the zone in peace - this is almost always the first thing I will do when called into a situation like this. Obviously if a compromised can't be reached for whatever reason, I'll usually just limit the bard to a single camp and they'll leave on their own accord (after raging at me in tells for a bit).

Bottom line, for me, is that I'm more interested in making sure the group of 6 trying to XP has mobs to kill than the 1 bard PL'ing someone for platinum. This goes double for newbie zones, where a lot of people get their first impression of P99 and really start to "relive" Everquest.

Juntsie affirms well-exercised discretion of Derubael and adopts reasoning set forth therein. Importance of protecting lowbie zone paramount. PL bard have rights, but it well-settled that rights of lowbie group take precedent.

Juntsie offer to draft clause to Project 1999 rule set codifying this doctrine and publish guidance materials on behalf of Derubael in consideration for reasonable fee. Because GM involved, Juntsie cut discount and set fee at reduced rate of 3,000 plat per hour to be paid by GMs. Juntsie require 10,000 plat retainer up front. Very reasonable considering extensive professional licensing and decades of rules lawyer experience.

[HippoNipple]

I'll preface by saying - I played a bard from Luclin thru GoD and loved the class. Now, I feel they're ruining quite a few zones. Have you tried exping in LOIO or OT? Or any other open outdoor zone without a faction hit?

This was totally not part of classic. No one had a computer or internet connection stable enough to pull such huge chunks of zones, over 30 mobs per pull. This didn't start until PoP, in PoN/PoD and HoH.

Is this something that is going to be address in Velious? I can't see investing more time in this game only to have giant tracts of zones totally overrun by bards - thinking about all the outdoor Velious zones I can see it being a total joke.

I imagine the coding would be complicated, but it seems like, if more than 6 or 8 mobs are on a player for more than N number of minutes, reset those mobs and ignore all aggro / damage from that player (or any player until it reaches its spawn point).

This swarm kiting was not the classic experience and it sucks.

I love p99 and have been having lots of fun but I'm disappointed to see a lot of the zones I used to level in being essentially wastelands while a few players dominate the entire zone. It seems to violate the 'play nice' policy and the spirit of p99, the classic experience.

If there is no plans to address this in Velious I'd love to know, so I can cut the cord before I invest more time..

This server is trying to replicate the classic game mechanics that was released in 1999. No one gives a shit about your personal experience when you were 10 years old and we aren't here to make sure everything goes the same way for you as it did in 1999.

[Swish]

Bottom line, for me, is that I'm more interested in making sure the group of 6 trying to XP has mobs to kill than the 1 bard PL'ing someone for platinum. This goes double for newbie zones, where a lot of people get their first impression of P99 and really start to "relive" Everquest.

pras

[Swish]

People are so bored on Kunark right now that everyone is rolling ridiculously twinked alts or trying out bards it seems.

It's either a bard at the camp or some rogue with a fungi and epic since lvl 1 monopolizing the camps; had a rogue last night with a fungi, epic, and a camped/boxed lvl 60 cleric to buff/heal... how bad of player do you need to be that a fungi and epic at lvl 30 isn't enough??

And honestly it wouldn't be that big of a deal if the uber-twinks weren't the biggest assholes I've met on P99. Not only do they monopolize zones, but they are rude and arrogant; none of the crazy twinks ever want to duo a camp, but will gladly inspect and mock you for wearing new gear.

I guess I haven't had that bad of a time with bards....it's every rogue I meet with a fungi+epic+asshole that isn't classic

Have had similar experiences on alts. If they talk smack on red you can at least pvp them.

Cue Drpepper and Macarena in Kurn's Tower... probably a year ago now...

http://i.imgur.com/YdnOuUS.jpg

[toolshed]

And genuinely, these twinks are awful at playing their characters as well. When they do finally group up: necro twink not healing/twitching, only nukes; bard fungi twink only singing one song; shaman fungi twink not buffing or healing; multiple fungi+epic rogues drawing agro against a SK because of 'leet deeps dude'

I don't know if this is because their character was just created 2 hours ago and they don't have the right spells since they got plvled, or maybe they think that once people see their gear it won't matter the skill level, but the twinks are awful to play with and I have never seen so many ridiculous twinks in my EQ days.

Okay I just started playing on this server, and they got here first, but holy shit do they need to learn to play.

[MilanderTruewield]

My first character on this server is a rogue. No epic, but oh well. His dps is ok, he does have a rapier of oriin and a css... no haste though :(

Evade rarely works pre-20. Warriors at this level suck at keeping agro due to the dependency they have on proccing weapons in order to keep agro. Thus, my rogue constantly gets agro. I hit evade after every BS, if not more often, and I turn attack off if the mob turns to agro me. I still have agro for the rest of the fight. When a pally or SK is tanking, as long as they know what they are doing, they can keep agro.

Not all twinks are bad. Just the majority :)

[Daywolf]

My first character on this server is a rogue. No epic, but oh well. His dps is ok, he does have a rapier of oriin and a css... no haste though :(

Evade rarely works pre-20. Warriors at this level suck at keeping agro due to the dependency they have on proccing weapons in order to keep agro. Thus, my rogue constantly gets agro. I hit evade after every BS, if not more often, and I turn attack off if the mob turns to agro me. I still have agro for the rest of the fight. When a pally or SK is tanking, as long as they know what they are doing, they can keep agro.

Not all twinks are bad. Just the majority :)
Duo with a cleric against undead. Works really well.

Er well excluding high elf :p
But full plate, better than summoned weapon, and a bit of extra str. Will hold 95% of the fight with one DD. And even with the rogue pulling :D
Though the trick is finding one that isn't just loaded down with wisdom junk.

[nyclin]

Bard swarming/AE kiting is the classic-est. The un-classic part is broadband and your modern PC. I levelled a bard for a friend during Velious using AE kiting, which was taught to me by a bard in our guild. My pulls maxed out at about 30-50 mobs due to packet loss and framerate issues, but it was totally possible.

People complaining about bard kiting is also classic.

[eqjayme]

This really has little to do with whether it's possible - it has to do with being a D and the PNP. It's sad but true that every bard I see swarming lately doesn't just pull 10 or 20 mobs - no he pulls an entire zone area clean. And it doesn't matter if it's Dreadlands, CB, OT, LOIO, EK, BW, SF, or anywhere else - I NEVER see a fair pull that leaves some behind unless I complain.

I actually got a good result once by sending a tell "hey I know you're swarming and that's what your class does, but someone not as nice as me might petition you for taking the entire area. I've been sitting here leveling and you have now left me to wait for full repop. It is against the play nice policy just so you know, and you can get in trouble for not sharing mobs".

The bard apologized and offered to share some swarm xp. I didn't take him up on it, but he pulled significantly less mobs the next time and I went on my merry way. I think it just takes some nuance in dealing with these guys. They aren't all asses but there sure are some out there, and usually (I don't blame anyone) people react pissed when it first happens to them.

[fastboy21]

Bard swarming/AE kiting is the classic-est. The un-classic part is broadband and your modern PC. I levelled a bard for a friend during Velious using AE kiting, which was taught to me by a bard in our guild. My pulls maxed out at about 30-50 mobs due to packet loss and framerate issues, but it was totally possible.

People complaining about bard kiting is also classic.

most of the bards who do it are really just trying it out or curious...the truth is that bard AE kiting is a boring hard monotonous way to spend your time. and, you'll die enough that if you don't figure out what you're doing it might not even be significantly more efficient.

my experience lately has been that almost all of the bards that are causing the zone disruption AE kiting are mostly causing the disruption because they don't know what they are doing...on live, one of the reasons that folks didn't try this stuff was that they didn't want to ruin their rep or get embarrassingly owned in front of a whole zone of people. there are no such social mores here.

there are only a handful of truly "working" bards out there that can do this efficiently.

[Mandalore93]

If you can't consistently land both chord of dissonance and denon's disruptice chord then you should stop because you're bad. If you can, then bard on young man. As for disrupting zones, I still have no idea why people go to places like OT and then expect it not to happen. It's like getting pissed that there's some wizard quadding in TD. I can't think of a zone where the bard will reasonably pull everything in the same level ranges simply due to mob differences. In OT you can't really pull tigers anymore with other mobs and that's always been true of the rhinos. Pulling sarnaks can get dicey as well. In DL you would never pull the yetis, brutes, and drachnids. In BW you never pull the giants or wurms and I personally never Sarnaks.

Really, the only time I ever get complaints is from quadders who need a certain mob type. In almost all instances though, the bard kiting zones are almost always the worst zones for those levels no matter what class you are. Although, I do mine at off-peak hours exclusively so I wouldn't know about prime time for EST people.

[Daywolf]

mostly causing the disruption because they don't know what they are doing...
I don't buy that one bit. Every bard I've talked to about such a situation just acted like an asshat about it, they knew full well what they were doing. Then the ones that say "oh I didn't know" they're just BS'ing you before doing their next pass again.

A good number of people that roll bard, they are doing it because they have played a number of characters and didn't like the time commitment to level. They really don't want to grab their enc or whatever and group with you, to do the mundane grind with just normal gear. They're lazy and want the shortcut to level cap and then maybe later ultra-twink that enc they wont play with your broken wizard etc. You and your slow leveling ways are just in the way, man, and your camped mobs are up for grabs at all hours of the day or night.

[Daldaen]

If we had classic mechanics this would be less of an issue.

Swarm kiting would be an option and allow bards to kill in several other zones. Also for some reason PBAE DoTs from bards don't decrease in value if the mob is moving? This is impossible to prove either way since we couldn't even see DoT messages until LoY.

Speaking of, let's remove those too please. Test the Velious DoTs and then remove the messages $$$.

[zanderklocke]

If we had classic mechanics this would be less of an issue.

Swarm kiting would be an option and allow bards to kill in several other zones.

For everyone that is confused, he is talking about charm-swarm kiting here...as many people for some reason seem to interchangeably use swarm and AoE kiting to mean the same thing.

Also for some reason PBAE DoTs from bards don't decrease in value if the mob is moving?

Oh man, bards would take even longer to kill mobs. People would love this.

Hmm...I suppose I never really thought about this mechanic though; targeted DoTs increase in damage if mob is fleeing. Why wouldn't PBAOE songs work the same way?

[Atmas]

Kind of sounds like the bards are doing you a favor because most of the places you are trying to group have terrible ZEM modifiers.

[Taminy]

Evade rarely works pre-20. Warriors at this level suck at keeping agro due to the dependency they have on proccing weapons in order to keep agro. Thus, my rogue constantly gets agro. I hit evade after every BS, if not more often, and I turn attack off if the mob turns to agro me. I still have agro for the rest of the fight. When a pally or SK is tanking, as long as they know what they are doing, they can keep agro.

Not all twinks are bad. Just the majority :)

If you're grouped with a warrior (or trioing with a healer) have someone root the mob then use proximity aggro.

[Klapton]

I am a little disturbed by people thinking some kind of nerf is the answer to this problem. The answer is for those Bards to stop being bogarts.

I would also like to point out, not that it's going to help much, that people are using the wrong terminology to describe this solo technique. "Swarm Kiting" is actually a method that uses a large group of "social" mobs by proximity aggro, then charming one to attack the others. The "swarm" beats the pet down very quickly. When the pet is almost dead, charm is broken, and the former pet "chanted" down to finish it off. The Bard gets the full xp for the mob. Rinse repeat until the "swarm" is dead.

What people are describing here is simply "AE Kiting." As others have noted, AE kiting has been around since the game began.

The places where this can be done are limited. I agree that it is especially annoying when a Bard bogarts in newbie zones, making it difficult or impossible for newbie groups to xp. At higher levels, I'm less sympathetic to non-bard players who can't simply find somewhere else to go.

[Daldaen]

I've tried swarm kiting on this server and social mobs don't properly assist onto your charmed pet. The only time they do is when your pet goes under 20% and gets low HP aggro.

The only reason they wouldn't assist in classic is if you previously charmed the mob (1 charm was sufficient aggro for them to ignore your new pet and chase you) or if you had DoT'd them once or twice.

To Zander, sort of. But the DoTs don't increase, they instead decrease. If a mob is moving it take 66% of the total damage from a DoT. Meaning your Chords and Denons are doing 33% more damage than they should be doing. Since they don't currently differentiate between a fleeing/stationary or a mobile mob.

That being said, it is *possible* they were special and didn't decrease at all while moving (everything else about bards is broken anyways). But that would be impossible to prove because as I stated before, no one saw DoT damage until LoY.

[zanderklocke]

I've tried swarm kiting on this server and social mobs don't properly assist onto your charmed pet. The only time they do is when your pet goes under 20% and gets low HP aggro.

The only reason they wouldn't assist in classic is if you previously charmed the mob (1 charm was sufficient aggro for them to ignore your new pet and chase you) or if you had DoT'd them once or twice.


The one way I've seen swarming sort of work is if you charm a mob and send it into one mob in a train. It'll pull one mob out of the train and start attacking it; the mob will leave the train as long as you don't have too much aggro on it from a snare or another high aggro song. If you run the train back over that mob you charmed, all the mobs on the same faction as the mob you sent your charmed pet after will then attack your charmed mob.

I'm guessing this isn't how it worked in classic?

[Daldaen]

From: "Robert Carnevali"
To: <EQSongAnalysis@home.com>
Subject: Song02
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 00:23:23 -0500

As a level 17 bard, I've gotten, and still get, great experience from Chords
of Dissonance. It is an excellent kiting song if done properly. The
technique I use can be a bit dangerous, but the experience gain is
worthwhile.

Against most mobs, using Accelerando will gradually take you out of range of
the mob. The trick is to run in a circle. Setting yourself to autorun, and
hitting the left or right key every second or so will keep you running in a
cirle, and if done properly, the mob will be within range for your songs.
Here's the sequence of songs I use: Accelerando, Chords, Bellow,
Accelerando, Bellow, Bellow, repeat. The whole time I'm doing this, I have
my lute equipped. Half of the time, the mob is under the effects of Chords,
and adding the Bellows in really stacks up the damage. Using this technique,
I can easily kite several yellow mobs simultaneously. Also, I've made a
fortune kiting 3, 4, or 5 wisps at a clip and then selling the lightstones.
I've tried to kite multiple red mobs, but it is extremely risky. If you get
too close and one red mob stuns you, having his 2 or 3 red buddies pounding
on you can be lethal. If you're stunned too long, and Accelerando wears off,
you have to hope that you don't get stunned again while you fire it up. And
if your health drops too low, the time it takes to equip that drum for the
extra speed guarantees you'll be using Lyssa's Locating Lyric to find your
corpse.

The kiting technique is especially good against slower-moving creatures like
mummies and zombies. These can be outrun without the use of Accelerando.
Your full effort can be put into twisting Chords and Bellows, and the mobs
drop pretty quickly. It's really underestimated how much damage Chords can
do with a lute when you can keep the mob under its effect for the duration
of a fight.

Confirmed, extremely classic to AOE kite. Though 70-80 mob trains, less classic. You may thank better Internet connections and UIs for that.

[Daldaen]

The one way I've seen swarming sort of work is if you charm a mob and send it into one mob in a train. It'll pull one mob out of the train and start attacking it; the mob will leave the train as long as you don't have too much aggro on it from a snare or another high aggro song. If you run the train back over that mob you charmed, all the mobs on the same faction as the mob you sent your charmed pet after will then attack your charmed mob.

I'm guessing this isn't how it worked in classic?

This may be a factor of the "3 second delay" mobs have on aggro. So when a freshly spawned mob enters the world, there is a small delay where it will not aggro anyone. This is noticeable when you turn in your pearl to Ragefire and he goes KoS.

Possibly the mobs consider a charmed mob, freshly spawned? And they won't proxy aggro it for 3 seconds. Or it's something else entirely.

But yea, it didn't require a second loop around during classic. It would immediately swap over to your mob the second your pet hit any social mob in your pack.

[Brocode]

If we had classic mechanics this would be less of an issue.

Swarm kiting would be an option and allow bards to kill in several other zones. Also for some reason PBAE DoTs from bards don't decrease in value if the mob is moving? This is impossible to prove either way since we couldn't even see DoT messages until LoY.

Speaking of, let's remove those too please. Test the Velious DoTs and then remove the messages $$$.

That was a Planes of Power update, when bards were aoeing Halls of Honour and getting insane fast XP. Later they made mobs also summon and including removed damage on aoe dots if mobs moves, since even with lower dmg people kept doing it.

I used to Bard AoE in Halls of Honour and Fungus Grove, alot, so i was following those changes at that time, even tho i have never tried to do it here.

[Daldaen]

All DoTs decrease by 33% when a mob is mobile. Fleeing/stationary mobs take full damage.

That was removed before PoP. But it was from classic until it was removed.

I'm saying bard AE songs shouldn't be special and avoid that 33% cut in efficiency when the mob is moving. AE songs not doing damage on a moving mob was something else entirely (that was LoY)

[Tewaz]

AoE'd cougars in Velious running backwards like a boss in 2001. Confirmed classic.

[Atmas]

All DoTs decrease by 33% when a mob is mobile. Fleeing/stationary mobs take full damage.

That was removed before PoP. But it was from classic until it was removed.

I'm saying bard AE songs shouldn't be special and avoid that 33% cut in efficiency when the mob is moving. AE songs not doing damage on a moving mob was something else entirely (that was LoY)

Unfortunately, that probably wouldn't stop bards. They would just tie up mobs longer.

[iruinedyourday]

All DoTs decrease by 33% when a mob is mobile. Fleeing/stationary mobs take full damage.

That was removed before PoP. But it was from classic until it was removed.


BUT it wasn't in first rev of classic, I remember when SoE added it becuse everyone used to qq about Druids being OP because of them discovering kiteing and it was Soe's solution to make it less powerful :)

My roommate was one of those people, always QQ and throwing his hands up in the air every time he saw a druid.. also druids were like notorious Player killers (we played on rallos zek) so it made us hate them even more, getting free xp, alone and able to be jerks to people and kill them when they are lowhp in a group.

Xblit Shouts: Dont group with Azzure he is a PK!
Azzure shouts: lol thanks for DWboots, I kite solo thx la~

[Juryiel]

This may be a factor of the "3 second delay" mobs have on aggro. So when a freshly spawned mob enters the world, there is a small delay where it will not aggro anyone. This is noticeable when you turn in your pearl to Ragefire and he goes KoS.

Possibly the mobs consider a charmed mob, freshly spawned? And they won't proxy aggro it for 3 seconds. Or it's something else entirely.

But yea, it didn't require a second loop around during classic. It would immediately swap over to your mob the second your pet hit any social mob in your pack.

Agro checks seem to be temporally sparse in general. This is very noticeable running around with selo's well-within mob agro range but mobs don't agro because I run through too quickly (I assume). Sometimes when building up a kite of non-social mobs I have to stand next to a blue mob for several seconds before it decides to agro me.

Also yeah it's clear that cutting down bard damage on mobs would just make bards kite for longer, and kite more mobs at once. Contrary to popular opinion there are enough bards out there who only take 15-20 mobs. If you cut their damage in half they'd just take 30-40 mobs for longer periods of time. No exp loss to them, but exp loss to others in zone.

If you really want to nerf the AE kite the only way would be things like limiting the number of targets the dot can hit. But devs probably don't want to introduce non-classic stuff like this.

[Daldaen]

Unfortunately, that probably wouldn't stop bards. They would just tie up mobs longer.

Only really care about classic :/. So if it ties them up longer, then that's classic.

But I'd be very surprised if the AE DoTs were the only ones that bypasses the 1/3rd moving penalty. Then again, bard songs were coded by aliens so who knows.

[rxfh]

You can petition if you feel a player is taking up too many mobs in a zone.

We do appreciate it if you attempt polite conversation with the player you are petitiong first, however, and try to work something out so that everyone can share the zone in peace - this is almost always the first thing I will do when called into a situation like this. Obviously if a compromised can't be reached for whatever reason, I'll usually just limit the bard to a single camp and they'll leave on their own accord (after raging at me in tells for a bit).

Bottom line, for me, is that I'm more interested in making sure the group of 6 trying to XP has mobs to kill than the 1 bard PL'ing someone for platinum. This goes double for newbie zones, where a lot of people get their first impression of P99 and really start to "relive" Everquest.

Thanks for the reply. I usually do send a tell, and a few times have come to an understanding, but in general I just get ignored. It's not worth it for me to petition or find a new zone, I usually just log and check back a few hours or days later.

Unfortunately the 'play nice' rules require a level of civility and responsibility from people which is asking a lot, more than most seem to be able to muster. I find technical solutions work better when possible, but can only imagine how the various coding scenarios would break things at a fundamental level in EQ.

If it's as big of a problem in Velious, I'll just move on (or get my shinebox or whatever). I want to relive the classic vibe and exp where I did originally, not beg for scraps and hope someone is nice enough to leave a few mobs behind so they can be selfish.

PS - to the "omg kiting is totally classic" crowd - be serious - it was never 20+ mobs in a pull. It was more like 4-6, not a zone-destroying kites.

PPS - I'm not worked up over any of it, and really appreciate the hard work the volunteer staff puts in - we're mostly all older and have real jobs / kids etc these days :D I have limited gaming time, if it's not fun to me I'm not gonna invest the small amount of time I do have

[iruinedyourday]

(or get my shinebox or whatever)

ah hey man I didn't mean anything negative I was just messin' around with ya :) not like filthy trolling but like just like lighthearted trolling.

Dont go! stay! There is plenty of eq to see, actually there is a vast majority of EQ to see and enjoy that bards cant kite!

I don't really like to ruin anyone's day not here :)

[dankzilla]

I am a BARD and I am free TO RUN AS FAST AS I PLEASE! Hear me roar, for I will run as many circles around the Overthere as I desire.

[Clark]

Should be nerfed.

[Daywolf]

Should be nerfed.

[Tewaz]

Plenty of mobs on Red.


JUST SAYIN

[Daldaen]

If they're concerned about a classic experience, red is the worst option.

No item loot
Global OOC
Non-classic EXP bonus
PvP Global Text
Item Recharge doesn't function

May as well play on EQLive :/. It's about as classic as R99.

[indiscriminate_hater]

If they're concerned about a classic experience, red is the worst option.

No item loot
Global OOC
Non-classic EXP bonus
PvP Global Text
Item Recharge doesn't function

May as well play on EQLive :/. It's about as classic as R99.

damn bro

[Daldaen]

There's a total of 50 people in the classic zones across the server, exp is easymode, have global channels... Seems pretty EQLivey to me.

[Tewaz]

Lining up for exp and epics is so classic.

[kaev]

Lining up for exp and epics is so classic.

Chardok AE & epic MQs, yepyep, that's p99 right there.

[Daldaen]

Lining up for exp and epics is so classic.

Many servers had raid mob rotations, and players becoming more efficient in their EXPing is hardly a surprise after 15 years of the game.

Player innovation and players working together... That's about as classic as it gets sir.

[Tewaz]

There is nothing classic about 1000 raiding players sharing Kunark content. That is a fantasy, sir.

[myriverse]

There is nothing classic about 1000 raiding players sharing Kunark content. That is a fantasy, sir.
Well, if it ain't classic, get rid of it. Right?;)

[Vladesch]

some silly "simple" solutions suggested so far.
Here's one...
Limit the number of mobs affected by the bard's song to some arbitrary number.
Code is already there for many aoe spells. (eg lightning strike affects only 4)

People who are suggesting everyone else should go to another zone are dicks.
If Im the right level for overthere in a group what am I supposed to do? Move the entire group to FV? Yeah sure. Good luck with pulling that off and not having half the group just log off. Also good luck finding replacement members in FV when people leave.
Like I say... dicks.

Or maybe we should just go to WW or FM and kill greens all day.

Same for groups in loio. Where should they go where half the group isn't going to quit rather than bother moving, and provide somewhere that they can get replacements when people leave?

Not everyone else xping in the zone is a druid who can just zip across several zones and just solo away.
Dicks.

(Get rid of the xp penalty and let bards group. They would be most welcome in most groups)

[Brocode]

some silly "simple" solutions suggested so far.
Here's one...
Limit the number of mobs affected by the bard's song to some arbitrary number.
Code is already there for many aoe spells. (eg lightning strike affects only 4)

People who are suggesting everyone else should go to another zone are dicks.
If Im the right level for overthere in a group what am I supposed to do? Move the entire group to FV? Yeah sure. Good luck with pulling that off and not having half the group just log off. Also good luck finding replacement members in FV when people leave.
Like I say... dicks.

Or maybe we should just go to WW or FM and kill greens all day.

Same for groups in loio. Where should they go where half the group isn't going to quit rather than bother moving, and provide somewhere that they can get replacements when people leave?

Not everyone else xping in the zone is a druid who can just zip across several zones and just solo away.
Dicks.

(Get rid of the xp penalty and let bards group. They would be most welcome in most groups)

There are Many zone WAY better than Overthere, aka: Guk, Sol A, Sol B..

well i will make it even better for you

Leveling Guide By Zones: https://docs.google.com/document/d/14X04cMHSguOSFYaUPGbf7v8oF8B41-ypXG1IXOzTzi4/edit?hl=en

Credits to the guy who created.

[Hogfather]

Funny you mention Sol A, our group of 20s had a hard time finding a camp spot there the other day due to Bard monopoly selling PL. A zone like that should support multiple groups.

[Brocode]

Funny you mention Sol A, our group of 20s had a hard time finding a camp spot there the other day due to Bard monopoly selling PL. A zone like that should support multiple groups.

Food for thoughts

Was an example, i myself used a lot of high keep, its all about thinking out of the box, which could be hurting a faction, going to an empty zone without bonus but with constant mobs(meaning more xp per hour).

How to calculate the best xp? Take your xp per hour, compare against constant spawn on your camp versus bonus zones, in the end, for me the constant spawn of low blues usually beats bonus xp zones due to overcrowd. Of course there are exceptions, so you reach for the exceptions, and whats your goal? Semi Afk? Solo or Group?

Sometimes people just want the info handed and some might be, but the best zone of XP is the one you figured out yourself, and has pretty low common knowledge about how you do it.

[Hogfather]

Food for thoughts

Was an example
I get all of that. But there are a finite number of exp zones. How many people can the server support if we decide that its OK for a few people to monopolise an entire exp zone?

[Brocode]

I get all of that. But there are a finite number of exp zones. How many people can the server support if we decide that its OK for a few people to monopolise an entire exp zone?

I guess the appeal of this server is its ideal to try to keep things classic, even if it worsen the gameplay itself. So i guess we just have to deal with it and try to adapt when the time comes, like it happened to casinos. Dont think we are nearly as populated as the server could accept, i mean world able, not lag able.

[Clark]

I get all of that. But there are a finite number of exp zones. How many people can the server support if we decide that its OK for a few people to monopolise an entire exp zone?

We're very far away from numbers on live.

[sulpher01]

We're very far away from numbers on live.

What was a live server peak pop? Or do we know? Guess if you knew how many servers there were on the night they bragged about 250k people online you could average..

[Thulack]

What was a live server peak pop? Or do we know? Guess if you knew how many servers there were on the night they bragged about 250k people online you could average..
i remember seeing 5k+ when they were actually showing the numbers on the server select screen. Doesnt matter what pop is though. better computers+better knowledge of the game leads up to what happens here. But yeah either tell them to share or go somewhere with better xp. As states OT and Loio arent great xp anyway.

[Daldaen]

August 2000 (https://web.archive.org/web/20000815062937/http://eqvault.ign.com/)


Server Users
Chat Server 68
Test Server 205
Morell-Thule 885
Vallon Zek (PvP) 912
Torvonnilous 923
Terris-Thule 931
Saryrn 950
The Seventh Hammer 957
Lanys T'Vyl 970
Luclin 976
Tallon Zek (PvP) 1048
Druzzil Ro 1070
Rallos Zek (PvP) 1094
Erollisi Marr 1159
Rodcet Nife 1226
Xegony 1236
Brell Serilis 1290
The Tribunal 1291
Cazic-Thule 1298
Quellious 1298
Solusek Ro 1300
Veeshan 1305
Innoruuk 1327
Bristlebane 1331
Povar 1335
Karana 1352
Bertoxxulous 1358
The Rathe 1385
Tarew Marr 1391
E'ci 1404
Prexus 1411
Tunare 1450
Mithaniel Marr 1496
Fennin Ro 1528
The Nameless 1549
Total Users 40709


No idea what time this snapshot was taken.

[Duncon]

5k seems high to my recollection. I recall steady numbers over 2k pushed me on to the pvp servers.

[Glenzig]

I get all of that. But there are a finite number of exp zones. How many people can the server support if we decide that its OK for a few people to monopolise an entire exp zone?

We just make a bard for every 5 people on the server and PL them all at the same time. :)

[kaev]

...

People who are suggesting everyone else should go to another zone are dicks.
If Im the right level for overthere in a group what am I supposed to do? Move the entire group to FV? Yeah sure. Good luck with pulling that off and not having half the group just log off. Also good luck finding replacement members in FV when people leave.
...

Also, good luck finding FV without some bard kiting most/all of the dogs.

(And seriously, to hell with the damned drachs. Only a masochist fights caster mobs with the current fucked up player resist mechanics unless dungeon rewards are involved. I wouldn't even wish that shit on a bard.)

[indiscriminate_hater]

the amount of mobs in FV is outrageous. even if 3 bards were taking up 90% of the dogs you could find some easily. also pirates, frogs, leeches, giants, etc.

but, that zone will only get you to low 40s realistically

[kaev]

the amount of mobs in FV is outrageous. even if 3 bards were taking up 90% of the dogs you could find some easily. also pirates, frogs, leeches, giants, etc.

but, that zone will only get you to low 40s realistically

Actually, in the section of the zone where I've seen bards hoovering the mobs, there're enough that are low blue at 45 to make it a reasonable spot to solo a melee/hybrid. And yes, it works out okay when the bard makes a point of being courteous. For a group tho you're right, once you break thru 40 it's time to move to CoM or somesuch.